30cal's from 22 cases

[Forrest r]

Finely been getting some time to try different ideas, 22lr cases to 308's has been on my mind for awhile now. Started doing a little rough tooling to see if it's feasible to even try. This is what I ended up with, .3085 110gr plinkers:

93143

The base looks good.
The brass has a nice pinch where the bullet's nose necks down to .302.
My only real concern is if the brass is thick enough. It should be, I didn't thin it out stretching it length wise like what happens when a 22lr case gets turned into a .224 bullet.

Probably just start these plinking bullets out slow & see what they can do & recover a couple of them after they've been shot to see what's going on with them.

Should prove to be interesting.

forrest r

[carbine86]

Very interesting those might be perfect for a 30 carbine.

[MOcaster]

Hehe. Hehe. Those look like a blast. Just think of the kind of varmint bullets you could make!

[R.Ph. 380]

Ok, Ok, you need to tell us how you de-rimmed them without stretching the case and thinning them. Remember, magic is not allowed in swaging. LOL

Bill

[Cane_man]

fess up forrest, spill the beans on how you did the impossible :popcorn:

[xman777]

So, this is a big tease... How'd you do it?

[Forrest r]

No tease, these things are cave man simple to make/do.

My real concern has been the jacket thickness all along, the end product is .008 thick. I'm not sure of the rpm threshold of a 8/1000th's bullet jacket but I'll find out soon enough in a 1 in 10 30-06.

What to do with the dang rim a the rimfire cases is what was stumping me & then it hit me. Do nothing!!! They don't matter, it's the body/tube of the 22lr case that counts. The other thing that is a real concern is the jacket thickness, by compressing (not expanding) the brass should keep it the same thickness. The compressed brass has to flow downward & outward to work.

I never made a de-rim die for a .224, don't need one because I only shoot 30 cals. So I made 1 to look at the brass after it's been de-rimed to get an idea of how much the brass thinned/stretched & took some measurements. Don't laugh, well go ahead, I quickly made a re-rim die (around 20 minutes) to use in an arbor press to see what everyones already doing to the 22lr brass.

93183

So after getting some measurements I decided to make a pin to bump the 22lr brass out around .010 in diameter. Then bump it out again with a 2nd pin another .005.

The list of tooling/presses/materal that I used to make these:
standard reloading press
arbor press
expander pins & pin holder
22lr shellholder
swaging lube
torch
lead cores

1st step:
DO NOT LUBE ANYTHING!!!! DO NOT ANNEAL ANYTHING!!!! Using a standard press, expander pin (same as any expander plug in any reloading set) & shellholder do the 1st expansion on the 22lr cases. The pin has a slight taper to it around .0015 in it's 1 inch milled length. You want the 22lr case to expand outward so it needs to be stiff/hard so don't anneal the cases for the 1st stage. You will see a small flare where the rim of the 22lr brass is & where the shell holder protected the brass from expanding. Don't worry about it, it doesn't mean anything.

2nd step:
Anneal the brass & clean it. The put the 2nd larger pin in & expand the cases again. This pin is also tapered .0015 over the 1 inch of milled length. And again you will see the rim/belled area on the bottom og the expanded 22lr cases, don't worry about it.

93184

The tapered pins are forcing the brass to flow downward as it expands (least point of resistance). As you can see in the picture above the cases are expanded with the rim & protected brass (what's in the shellholder) staying it's original size.

3rd step:
Time to seat the cores, you're going to love the core seater. a piece of round stock & an arbor press.

93186

The 2nd expander pin opens the mouth of the case just enough that a 1/4" core can just be started into the case. The case/core will self allign as the arbor press pushes the core into the 22lr case (again, the least point of resistance). You just want the core to bottom out in the case leaving the rim/tail alone. It's easy to tell when the core has hit bottom, you will feel a difference in pressure on the handle. This is actually an important step because not only is it expanding the case walls out square to the core it is also causing the brass to flow downward because of the taper of the taper pins. Flowing downwards leaves the wall thickness the same size & uses the compressing brass as material to expand.

4th step:
Now you can lube the brass!!! Just run it up in your swaging die & you've got a 30 cal bullet.

93187

In the picture above you can see the core, the core started by hand in a expanded 22lr case and what the core looks like after it's been pushed into the 22lr case. Note the rim/tail is still there. To the right is my wack-a mole- herter's 30 cal swaging die that I use to make these bullets with. Nothing high tech but it works.

When the seated cores/jackets are swaged that ugly rim/tail simply compress unto itself. The annealed brass is extremely soft, the other areas of the 22lr case have been work hardened in the different processes but the rim & area above it has been protected by the shellholder. The bottom of the swaged bullets with the soft rim/tail swaged into the bullet base.

93190

Looking at some #'s:
a 22lr case is around .250 diameter/.608 high/.010 thick
after the 1st expander pin:
a 22lr case is around .260 diameter/.565 high/.008 thick
after the 2nd expander pin:
a 22lr case is around .265 diameter/.550 high/ .008 thick

The end result is a 110gr plinker with a .008 jacket that has a 1/2" jacket body.

Because the 1st pin was tapered it causes anything after that to flow down & out keeping the brass .008. The 2nd pin opens the mouth of the case enough to start the lead core & keeps the same taper.

I didn't cut/trim the 22lr cases, they shrink in the swaging process. II plan on trying some 22mag cases next, those I'll trim to .825. I should end up with a 3/4" jacket and a bullet weighing 150gr to 165gr.

Well, there it is, simple enough.

1 cleaning 1 lubing 1 annealing & 1 trimming for heavier bullets and 4 stages later you have 30 cal bullets from 22lr cases.

forrest r

[Prospector Howard]

Hmmm-interesting. Here's something that might be a problem. 30 cal rifle barrel: groove .308, lands .300 with the difference being 8 thousandths. 4 thousandths on each side. Jacket thickness 8 thousandths. Not much left to hold the bullet together. I'll be interested to see what happens when you test them. I like your ingenuity though.

[Forrest r]

Hmmm-interesting. Here's something that might be a problem. 30 cal rifle barrel: groove .308, lands .300 with the difference being 8 thousandths. 4 thousandths on each side. Jacket thickness 8 thousandths. Not much left to hold the bullet together. I'll be interested to see what happens when you test them. I like your ingenuity though.


Absolutely, been a concern all along, that's why I made a re-rim die 1st to take some measurements.

.008 + .008 ='s .016

.016 - the .008 lands ='s .008 or 4/1000ths per side of metal left.

We shall see.

forrest r

[R.Ph. 380]

Forrest, I think you just described the perfect round for my 300 AAC Blackout. I don't like the subsonic, suppressed rounds up above 200 grns. But at 125 to 150 grns, perfect. Like to get with you sometime by PM and go over just what the dimensions for the different punches are. Why, you wouldn't even have to harden any of the expansion dies except for the final point forming dies would you?

Bill

[Forrest r]

Well, the 1st set of tests are in & they were a real eye opener!!!!

The test firearm is nothing more than a 2 groove bbl'd 03a3. Back in 2005/2006? we were up @ camp perry & my brother had his gages with him & we found a 03a3 that measured 0 on the me & 0 on the te. So I bought it & ran 200 jacketed bullets & 500 to 600 cast bullets in it. So the bbl should still be crisp.

The chronograph was a cheap f-1 chrony setup 10' from the muzzle.

I loaded the test bullets with bl-c2 and seated them so that the brass on the bullets jacket was up above the top of the 30-06 case by 20/1000ths. I did light loads of 43gr, 44gr, 45gr & 1 bullet loaded with 50gr. I set a target up @ 25yds, figured if the bullet grenaded it would look like the taget got hit with a shotgun @ that distance. I really wasn't concerned with accuracy, left the front sight protecting hood on & used my elbows on a bench to support the rifle.

I only shot 5 shot groups and a single bullet with the 50gr charge of powder.

43gr load:
2801
2777
2791
2789
2807

44gr load:
2831
2804
2813
2819
2849

45gr load:
2864
2884
2895
2906
2891

The single 50gr load:
3083

93337

The hole marked setup was me testing the final setup of the chrony/target alignment.

93338

In both targets all holes are clean cut & round. I wasn't shooting for accuracy but the groups opened up quickly. I'm thinking it's the llloooooooooong bullet jump from those short bullets being loaded so far in & that rifle has an extremely long throat in the leade of it's chamber.

The next test will be with 22mag cases to make bullets that are allot longer & are in the 150gr to 165gr weight range. Or even take them to the 180gr to 200gr range.

I was glad to see none of the bullets grenaded & was able to get 3000+fps out of them so far. The 110gr plinkers should do extremely well in cases like the 30-30, 7.62 x 39, m1 carbines, contender bbls, etc. I need to test/sort it out & see if these jackets (22lr) have 2800fps threshold in the 1 in 10 twists. And if the longer bore riding heavier bullets can break that barrier for accuracy.

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm extremely excited about this. Time to dial these things in & shoot some cheap jacketed 30cals.

By cheap I'm talking less than $1 a 1000

forrest r

[Forrest r]

Forrest, I think you just described the perfect round for my 300 AAC Blackout. I don't like the subsonic, suppressed rounds up above 200 grns. But at 125 to 150 grns, perfect. Like to get with you sometime by PM and go over just what the dimensions for the different punches are. Why, you wouldn't even have to harden any of the expansion dies except for the final point forming dies would you?

Bill


I'll end up making a "good" set seeing how the bullets left round holes in the targets & get you the #'s. Ya, that's just it, you're basically making expander dies. I used a 7/8-14 bolt & drilled/taped it to accept a 5/16-16 bolt. And then used grade 5 5/16th bolts to make the pins. There no core seating die to make either & I didn't bother with a squirt die either. These are simple plinking bullets.

forrest r

[Forrest r]

And then a pin being dropped could be heard @ 100 paces.

[Smokin7mm]

Forrest r,
Your process is similar to what I have been doing for several years to make 6.5, 270 & 7mm bullets from 22mag & 17HMR cases. FYI, a 25acp shell holder works for the 22mag cases. What type of shell holder did you use for the 22lr? (make your own?). I make straight up rifle bullets in a 8s ogive using my RCE equipment. Just experimenting one day to see what could be done. The biggest killer of these think jacket bullets is too fast of a twist.

Bret

[Prospector Howard]

As I said before, I like your ingenuity. Hopefully with more experimenting, you can get them to shoot a little better. When I've experimented like this, accuracy (obviously) was the deciding factor to continue or move on to other things. I liked your other .357 bullets you made on a different thread out of 9mm cases for pistol. Those looked like they would work really good. I never even considered .22 cases to .30 caliber, it seemed a bit of a stretch (pun intended). I've been saving the 5.7 x 28 cases for .30 cal jackets when I find them. Keep your eye open for them, they're a little hard to find, but they're out there. When I get a few thousand saved up, it'll be time to make some dies.

[Cane_man]

great work Forrest, unbelievable that you can get decent projetiles swaging 22LR up to 30 cal, didn't think it would be possible

[R.Ph. 380]

Well, I've got 1500 1.50" corbin jackets that All I need is a point forming die to make 150 to 160 grn bullets and can't find a 308 point forming die for sale quick. I wonder if a 32 cal seating die would hold up long enough to form a pointy little end for a really soft jacket. Maybe I just need to drill out a blank. But then it would be too soft and I have no machining skills anyway...........................

Bill

[Forrest r]

It's a shell holder specifically for 22lr's, came with a set of niel waltz swaging dies for the 22lr bullets.

I really had no idea those bullets would be going 2700fps+ with the starting loads. A starting load for a:
100gr bullet='s 45gr bl-c2 2646fps
110gr bullet='s 52gr bl-c2 3230fps
per an old hodgdon manual, 25th edition.

I"m planning on slowing them down to 2400fps & work them up from there. There's got to be some middle ground somewhere with these things.

Figured it might be best to try to find the threshold these jackets can take & then start increasing the weight while keeping the speeds the same.

Pretty good project though.

What's seems to be the best speeds for the 22lr jacketed .224 ammo?

forrest r

[supe47]

Forrest r- "What's seems to be the best speeds for the 22lr jacketed .224 ammo?" Tough question without barrel and bullet specs. How high is up? My 55ish grainers in my 1-9" likes a bit over 3000fps. I believe you'll you'll find our cartridge brass jacketed bullets will shoot a bit faster (150fps) than the same weight guilding metal jacketed bullet. I ran a test between 55ish grainers made from Corbin jackets and 22LR jackets. Same weight, same dies, same load. 'Bout 150 fps difference if'n I remember right. Must be that slick zinc. Great project you got going there. My compliments to the mad scientist. Thinking outside the box...I love it.

[jimrk]

question about step 3 above.. core seat. do I understand correctly you are just "pushing" the core into the jacket without a die?

[Forrest r]

Thank you for the reply super47, had no idea what speeds you guys were running you cartridge brass bullets in rifles. I hate to say it but I don't shoot long guns like I used to & have sold them off. Down to the 03a3 & planned on restocking, nothing fancy just a 308 bolt action with set triggers & a 45-70. Back when I wore a younger mans clothes I had a 1000yd range in my back yard & wore out a couple of 300mags along with a 03a3 that I bought, shot it out & rebarreled it & shot that bbl out.

jimrk, your correct, the core is just pushed into the jacket. There is no die, when the handle on the arbor press is 1st pulled there is resistance. As the .250" core aligns itself with the case walls you can feel it because all of a sudden it takes allot less pressure (pulling with 1 finger) to seat the core in the jacket. You will also know when the core bottoms out because all of a sudden you'll feel resistance on the handle again.

Would it be a good idea to make a squirt die for the cores, yes.
Would it be a good idea to make a core seating die, yes.

Something to keep in mind:
Everyone been saying that a 308 bullet can't be made from a 22lr case. So I figured I'd take a poke at it. What little I made/tested/did was done in 5 hours and I had test bullets laying there. I didn't want to spend allot of time making different dies for something that I assumed from all the posts I've read would fail.

These bullets are still not out of the woods yet by any means but at least it's a start. Why I posted what I've done so far was in hope that someone else would try what I've done & improve upon it. The people in the swaging section of this website extremely sharp when it come to bullet swaging/making/design. I've been semi-retired for 18 years now & normally have time for these types of projects. But sometime opportunities present themselves that are too good to pass up & I've just been awarded a couple contracts of bids that were submitted. So there isn't allot of time to make & test any bullet right now. When I get a free day I'll make more bullets, 3 different designs/weights this time, but I don't know when I'll be able to test them.

As far as a shellholder, they shouldn't be too hard to make. A 25cal holder would be the way to go as stated above it holds a 22mag. If the 25acp shellholder will not hold a 22lr a small thin plate could easily be made to sit on top of it with a smaller slot in it & held there by screws.

forrest r

[seppos]

Had to try f it is possble to make the jackets from .22 RF and WMR cases.. And the answer is YES. I annealed the cases and opened them up with several punches 0.5mm range starting with 5.5mm with .22LR and with 6mm with WMR. As I only have CH dies for the .30 cal, the manufacturing speed is slow.
Best would be to manufacture punches with a hole thru them so that the ejection of the cases would be easier. Now I had to pry the cases with plyer after every pass.. Anyway.. 22 WMR cases would be exelent jackets for about 150 grain hollow points or soft noses. My bullets are about 165 grainers. 93978

[seppos]

To clarify the previous.. I opened up the cases to 7mm ID and after that inserted the lead cores and made the bullets.

S

[Forrest r]

Very nice, glad to see other people trying to make these. Been kicking around the idea of making hollow pins that can use air to eject the 22 cases off of them.

Made some more up but haven't had any time to test them. Maybe in a couple of weeks.

[seppos]

-20 C in shooting range gave minute of grapefruit size groups with 5 rounds from 100m. Load was 26 grains of VV N133. Load gives good groups with 200 grain lead bullets, but apparently are way too small load for the jacketed bullets.
The case necks where all black.
Too bad I dont have slower powders at the moment as N140 would have propably been better suited to the load.

[chrispy]

I have been using a 312 version of these in 110gn for the 32-20, made by a gent who has now since retired from bullet making. He also made a fantastic version as a 130gn spire point/protected point for the 7.62x39, and they are explosive. They make an excellent varmint projectile and work very well on smaller pigs and dogs. I tried them in the 308 at full power loads, and they never made it to the target!!
But now Tom (Turton) has retired from bullet making, I am looking keenly how to make my own, my concentration being 32-20, 310-130 and 264-140gn.

Chrispy