The Rebirth of the 200-grain .38 Special Super Police Cartridge

[L1A1Rocker]

The .38 Special Super Police load featured a blunt round nose bullet weighing in at 200 grains, with a nominal velocity of 700 fps from a four-inch barreled revolver. It was more effective against soft targets than the standard 158-grain load, but less effective against vehicles.

What I didn’t know then about the 200-grain Super Police bullet is that when it hits soft tissue, it consistently yaws. The “long for caliber” slug at moderate velocity is on the edge of instability in flight. This causes it to begin to turn sideways as it moves through soft tissue, causing a PERMANENT wound path and exit that ends up being much larger than the entrance hole. A bullet that yaws increases trauma and reduces over-penetration, without the cost, blast, and heavier recoil of modern +P hollow point defensive ammo. If the original Super Police bullets really did yaw when hitting soft test medium, I would consider carrying them in my Smith & Wesson Model 642. However, I couldn’t find original .38 Super Police ammo anywhere! Fortunately GAD Custom Cartridges of Medford, Wisconsin was able and willing to replicate the original loads.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Scott_CCR_Article_011014.jpg
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/gun-gear-reviews/rebirth-200-grain-38-special-super-police-cartridge/?id=facebook&sid=fanpage_article_1-10-2014

I'd never heard of this cartridge before. Sounds very interesting.

[MtGun44]

Interesting. I'd like to see a test in calibrated ballistic gelatin.

Bill

[bhn22]

You'd be better off with a std full power wadcutter load IMHO. If the old (and I do mean old) Super Police load were effective, it never would have been discontinued in the first place. There are better choices available.

[Outpost75]

My mentor was an old cop who walked his beat after WW2 and retired in the early 1960s. He told me that the 200-grain lead roundnose loads available at the time were less effective than 158 LRN, which also tumbles and flips 180 degrees, exiting gelatin base first at about 40cm.

He said that ordinary factory target wadcutters of the major US brands were more effective than LRN, and he would carry wadcutters if possible. He had several notable failures on the job with both 200 and 158 LRN. The 200 grain loads in particular were defeated by auto glass, plywood doors and heavy household furniture.

Back in those days it was common for cops to carry LRN in loops on the cartridge belt, and to practice with wadcutters on the range. Bill was in an OIS where he shot and stopped a VCA with his 2" off duty gun, a 2" Colt Detective Special, loaded with Western Super Match wadcutters. This was against regulations, but he used the excuse that he had recently practiced with wadcutters and when he was off duty, that was the ammunition he had. He was verbally reprimanded, but that was all. He still carries wadcutters, but loads them full-charge with 3.5 grains of Bullseye.

If you want an effective 200-grain .38 Special +P load which is suitable for guns designed for them, load the 190-grain flatnose from Hunter's Supply, or NEI #161A, seated out to 1.55" OAL and crimped in the top lubricating groove, with 4.0 grains of Bullseye, which gives 840 fps from my 4" Ruger Police Service Six.

[Piedmont]

I hope this load makes it and would like to see the clear gelatin results, too.

The big deal of the 200 gr. roundnose over the 158 is it is less stable and tumbles more quickly, plus it is .80" long, so it hurts more when it goes through you sideways. More surface area. No one is suggesting the 200gr. load is good for barrier penetration. What works for it in soft tissue, instability, works against it on glass, steel, or furniture. It still could be a primo self defense load.

A cop load that did well and has a serious paper trail is the swaged +p 158 gr. SWCHP. This was very well regarded. I don't think any PDs issued wadcutters, full charge or attenuated and any ammunition manufacturer would have been happy to provide them had they been desired.

[Certaindeaf]

The Brits used the 380/200 (.38 S&W) manstopper @650fps and found that it performed similarly to the .455 because it'd yaw and tumble upon hitting soft targets.

[Char-Gar]

You'd be better off with a std full power wadcutter load IMHO. If the old (and I do mean old) Super Police load were effective, it never would have been discontinued in the first place. There are better choices available.

+1 and yep

[Bret4207]

I have the mould for the 38 Super Police 200 grs. I forget the number. I've read a lot f anecdotal reports on the boolit in 38 Special 38 S+W, all report superior results on live targets compared to standard RN 150-158ish designs.

[Certaindeaf]

Back in the day, my favorite 9mm load out of a Hi-Power was the Lee 140 grain SWC, cast of wheel weights loaded such that the primers were quite flat and you'd be lucky to get two loads out of one case. I was young and don't ask the load. Unfired, that slug started out at .68" and flew quite admirably/accurately from that gun. However, when it hit stacked wet phonebooks, it would yaw sideways and still out penetrate by far any hollowpoint (handload or otherwise at the time) and make a much bigger wound channel.. it would wind up being slightly bent and about .8" long and perhaps .39" wide. I've shot deer and hog (yadda) with that gun and load.. it's a killer.
At least now I know what's possible with that load/gun but certainly don't "abuse" my guns on a daily basis any more, to put it mildly.

[bhn22]

Cast that 140 Lee out of lino, and water drop it. You'll end up with a bullet around 125 grains that doesn't recognize any speed limits. At least until it hits something really solid and shatters... Not that I've ever done such a thing [smilie=1:

[Certaindeaf]

Cast that 140 Lee out of lino, and water drop it. You'll end up with a bullet around 125 grains that doesn't recognize any speed limits. At least until it hits something really solid and shatters... Not that I've ever done such a thing [smilie=1:
Oh I own a 30-06 and know the ways of linotype ("hardened" at that.. feh) driven fast.
The definition of "shatter" I know. not that that's a bad thing

[tomme boy]

Here are pics of the said bullet that was given to me. They have a lot of recoil for a 38 spec. I shot off a whole box before someone told me what they were. I saved one round and took it apart. They were in WRA brass if I remember right.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/101_0357_zps2418ef4c.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tommeboy/media/101_0357_zps2418ef4c.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/101_0356_zpsbc4a67cf.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tommeboy/media/101_0356_zpsbc4a67cf.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/101_0355_zps703ab35e.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tommeboy/media/101_0355_zps703ab35e.jpg.html)

[Bret4207]

Kind of funny that some sources report such dismal performance from a lookalike little brother to the vaunted Lyman 358009...

[45 2.1]

Like anything else, results depend on where you put it with what you're shooting. Very very few people do any of that the same.

[GabbyM]

If anyone wants to try some 200 grain Lyman #358430. I have some here cast hard from 2:6 alloy.
Have load data from an old 1970's era Lyman 45th edition. 357 and 38 Special data.
Then if you want to go plum over the top. I have the Magma 230 grain wad cutter. Bowling pin bullet.

From Lyman 45th they list the 357 magnum as pushing the 200 grain bullet 1018 fps over a load of 2400.
Seams the colt guns are a tighter twist. S&W is 1-18 1/2 twist. So I think if you want the tumble effect you'll need a S&W because the Colt will stabilize them. My 357 mag is a Colt but I've not shot any. I've a Saeco 180 gr RNFP that is enough lead and can be loaded to start out sub sonic. But if you want to clear a table of bowling pins. Bullets that simulate a bowling ball do work best.

[Outpost75]

In my Ruger 9mm revolver I trim .38 S&W brass to 0.750 and load with 9mm dies and .38 Spl. shell holder with 200-grain LRN seated to 1.28" overall, with 2.5 grains of Bullseye for 700 fps. in 4" barrel. A charge of 2 grains of Bullseye gives 640 fps, approximating the British. 380-200.

[Petander]

Bump!

358430 is dropping 195 grains here with medium hard alloy. A very good quality mold.

https://i.postimg.cc/2yWNzzY6/IMG-20200203-183608-330.jpg

[OS OK]

This is a neet little cast to experiment with...


https://i.imgur.com/tzSDLQq.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/17RFpYP.jpg

I thought I'd load it in .38 Special, and run it as fast as my lil S&W 14-4 can manage without going into +P pressure.
I line up 5 jugs of water and proceed, it ran all 5 and destroyed itself in my metal backstop. The yaw was started by the time it exited the 2'nd jug and it came out of the 5'th fully sideways.
Here's a little history on this old cast, a little about how I went about the jugbust & at the end of the video I busted them jugs...take a look.

https://thereloadersnetwork.com/2019/11/08/200g-38s-jug-busters-_-super-police-load-of-yesteryear/?channel=charliebrassstuffer

This has me thinking that it'd be a lot of fun to load it for the more powerful .357m and see what it'll do there?

[lightman]

You'd be better off with a std full power wadcutter load IMHO. If the old (and I do mean old) Super Police load were effective, it never would have been discontinued in the first place. There are better choices available.

The best that I remember reading about this years ago was that it was a failed concept.

[Jniedbalski]

Nice video. I guessed d 5 jugs

[rockrat]

I have a 200gr NOE SWC mould, might have to try a few.

[LouisianaMan]

Working with the 358430 and similar 200g bullets, I've devoted most of my efforts to loading the .38 S&W cartridge. At those lower velocities, I noticed a clear tendency in water jugs: at velocities around 575-625, the bullet destabilized quickly enough to begin curving and tumbling in jugs 1-2, while retaining enough momentum to penetrate about 5 jugs. As I reached about 700, the tendency was to shoot through 6 jugs and display minimal yawing. The faster I pushed it, the deeper and straighter it drilled.

In short, I simply verified what the British Army tests seem to have concluded, which is why they standardized their .380 Mk1Z at a seemingly lazy MV of 590 fps. At that speed, the heavy 200g .38 bullet would (and will) handily penetrate an enemy soldier, destabilize and yaw, even tumble, carry deep into the opponent due to its momentum, and do so with mild report and recoil.

Combined with the Enfield's truly excellent pointing and handling qualities and a deceptively smooth and short DA action, the British soldier had a handgun tailor-made for delivering quick bursts of 2-3 shots using point-shooting techniques laid out in their 1937 manual and subsequently made famous by Fairbairn and Sykes in "Shooting to Live with the One-Hand Gun." https://ia801303.us.archive.org/26/items/ShootingToLiveWilliamFairbairn/Shooting%20to%20Live%20-%20William%20Fairbairn.pdf

They had standardized those techniques with the Shanghai Municipal Police in hundreds of shootouts from the 1910s up to the outbreak of WWII. Returning to Britain, they trained British Commandos, SOE agents, and US Army Rangers in those techniques, as well as quite some number of British soldiers. My guess is that units sent officers and key NCOs to such courses, then used returning graduates to inculcate soldiers with the techniques sketched out in the Army's 1937 manual.

Fairbairn and Sykes emphasized relentlessly that handgun combat was close, fast, hard, rough & tumble. It wasn't sniping--no potting away at a distance--and they considered "stopping power" to be a myth using handguns and non-expanding bullets. Accordingly they emphasized SPEED above all else: shoot first, shoot 2-3 round bursts fast and pointing instinctively, get solid hits in the opponent's body. That would do the trick or at least tip the scales, and you might well need to finish your opponent in hand-to-hand combat. They preferred the .45 Colt Army automatic, .45 Colt New Service, and .455 Webley, but I imagine they considered British wartime conscripts decently well-served with the .38 Enfield revolver: handy, easily manageable, instinctive function and pointing, fairly soldier-proof, and a bullet heavy enough to bust through an enemy soldier's vitals at close range.

Having never shot living things with my .38-200, Super Police, or .38 SPL Super Police ammo, I'm unable to judge whether we're better served with a slow, tumbling 200g blunt LRN or a faster, more stable one. I suspect the damage they inflict depends far more on whether they strike a bone directly, hit a glancing blow, travel through soft tissue only, strike a blood vessel, critical organ, or nerve. Or a heavy belt buckle or thick wallet.

[Iowa Fox]

Just some guy writing an article. Firearm and bullet technology have come a long way since the snub nose 38 special with heavy bullets. Especially for law enforcement of any kind.

[gwpercle]

I like the 200 grain weight but after years of reading Elmer Keith , can't help but think a flat wadcutter nose , like the Lyman 358432 , would offer better terminal performance than the round nose design would .
Gary

[Outpost75]

I like the 200 grain weight but after years of reading Elmer Keith , can't help but think a flat wadcutter nose , like the Lyman 358432 , would offer better terminal performance than the round nose design would .
Gary

This bullet from Accurate is a stone killer.

195 grains in 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals, 880 fps with 8.4 grains of Alliant #2400 in .38 Special 4" barrel S&W .38-44 Heavy-Duty.

256036 256037

[LouisianaMan]

GW,
I'm in Baton Rouge too, so Geaux Tigers!

The bullet I carry in my .38 S&W snubs is exactly the kind you mean, in a heavy weight to boot. It's the NOE group but mold .360-200, a 200g LSWC with a hefty .28" meplat, which I can bump slightly to .32".

Over 2.5g W231 in my 4" S&W Mod. 33-1, it's good for 630 fps, 6 jugs in a straight line, full-caliber hole and violent impact. From a 2" Mod. 32-1, it runs about 560 fps and does the same thing for 5 jugs. I typically carry that load in my I frame Terriers, but boost it slightly to 2.8g W231 for J frame carry and increase the vels. to about 675 and 600, respectively. I get the same performance with Bullseye, reducing the charges to 2.2g to equate to 2.5g W231, and 2.5g BE to duplicate the 2.8g W231 loading.

For CC/SD, these loads are manageable in close-range rapid fire; hit hard and cut a nice, square hole; ensure full penetration, to include crushing its way through heavy clothing, bone, raised arms, etc. With .38 snubs, even in .38 Special, HPs have a finicky reputation when it comes to expansion, penetration, and wound channel. The 200g LSWC solve the problems of penetration and wound channel reliably and consistently, albeit sacrificing the possibility of expansion and enhanced cutting effects. For my specific purposes and F/S point shooting style, the high trajectory of heavyweight bullets at 25-50 yds. is a non-issue. If I somehow had a valid SD need to use my carry guns at such ranges, I'd have to use carefully sighted fire and aim about 6" below the desired POI.


This bullet from Accurate is a stone killer.

195 grains in 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals, 880 fps with 8.4 grains of Alliant #2400 in .38 Special 4" barrel S&W .38-44 Heavy-Duty.

256036 256037


I like the 200 grain weight but after years of reading Elmer Keith , can't help but think a flat wadcutter nose , like the Lyman 358432 , would offer better terminal performance than the round nose design would .
Gary

[Thin Man]

The shop where I work has a history of accepting donations of unwanted ammunition, usually estate left-overs. These donations commonly find their way to my work bench for disposal. One such recent event yielded 7-8 boxes of assorted .38 Special of mixed loads, mostly WC in age-old tarnished cases. Then there was a full box of Western Super X .38 Special Super Police ammo carrying the 200 grain lubaloy bullet in nickel plated cases. I took out a few rounds and the projectiles were a gold plated color with the expected blunt round nose profile. However, each nose carried a groove around the nose right where the rounded nose blends with the flat side of the bullet body. I began to question whether someone had assembled this ammo from component bullets, or had cast and plated them for color and I was seeing the top punch witness mark from having been sized and lubed. After looking more closely at the full box of ammo I determined this was original factory ammo that was packed without dividers in the box. The rounds touched each other and were stacked "bullet up, bullet down" as was the Western practice in the day. This box of ammo had been carried along with the owner in his car (perhaps?) and jostled together for so long that the rims of the cases had carved grooves completely around the nose of each adjacent bullet! The box is reasonably intact though somewhat soiled. The specs posted on the bottom of the box state "Muzzle Velocity 730 fps / Muzzle Energy 236 ft. lbs." It is safe to predict this box and contents will make their way to my estate exactly as they are today.

[RU shooter]

This bullet from Accurate is a stone killer.

195 grains in 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals, 880 fps with 8.4 grains of Alliant #2400 in .38 Special 4" barrel S&W .38-44 Heavy-Duty.

256036 256037

Similar in shape to the 190 gr ranch dog bullet I load for my 686 . Indeed it does smack whatever it hits with authority

[dverna]

Glad this thread got resurrected. Very informative.

[LouisianaMan]

Sounds like they're lubricated with Lubaloy, as was often the case with Western and Winchester ammo back in the day.


The shop where I work has a history of accepting donations of unwanted ammunition, usually estate left-overs. These donations commonly find their way to my work bench for disposal. One such recent event yielded 7-8 boxes of assorted .38 Special of mixed loads, mostly WC in age-old tarnished cases. Then there was a full box of Western Super X .38 Special Super Police ammo carrying the 200 grain lubaloy bullet in nickel plated cases. I took out a few rounds and the projectiles were a gold plated color with the expected blunt round nose profile. However, each nose carried a groove around the nose right where the rounded nose blends with the flat side of the bullet body. I began to question whether someone had assembled this ammo from component bullets, or had cast and plated them for color and I was seeing the top punch witness mark from having been sized and lubed. After looking more closely at the full box of ammo I determined this was original factory ammo that was packed without dividers in the box. The rounds touched each other and were stacked "bullet up, bullet down" as was the Western practice in the day. This box of ammo had been carried along with the owner in his car (perhaps?) and jostled together for so long that the rims of the cases had carved grooves completely around the nose of each adjacent bullet! The box is reasonably intact though somewhat soiled. The specs posted on the bottom of the box state "Muzzle Velocity 730 fps / Muzzle Energy 236 ft. lbs." It is safe to predict this box and contents will make their way to my estate exactly as they are today.

[country gent]

One thing that 200 grn load excelled a was shooting bowling pins. My wife used it in her 357 loaded to around 850 fps. Hit the Pins hard and took them off the table well. It wasnt the factory load but a hand load. Very accurate and worked well

[KCSO]

You makin' me feel old, I use to carry some of those!

[pettypace]

Interesting. I'd like to see a test in calibrated ballistic gelatin.

Bill

I don't have any tests in calibrated ballistic gelatin to offer, but here' s a picture from a test I made some time ago in Clear Ballistic gel:

256354

These are 207 grain bullets from a SAECO mould fired from a .38 S&W Regulation Police revolver with a 4" barrel at about 600 ft/s.

This block of C-B gel was actually the second of two ammo can size blocks. So these five slugs had already penetrated 11" of gel before entering this block from the left. The C-B gel penetrations were something like 12", 13", 14", 14", and 16" for an average of abou 14". All five bullets tumbled. That is, they did a 180 degree flip ending up base forward.

At the time of this test, I assumed penetration in C-B gel was the same as penetration in validated ordnance gelatin. That assumption was wrong. So, instead of an average penetration of about 14", it's probably closer to about 11" in validated ordnance gel. Let's use that for the sake of discussion.

Here are graphs of penetration and wound mass from a simulated test in 10% ordnance gel of a .36 caliber 207 grain round nose bullet at 600 ft/s. The 31" of penetration and the 17 grams of wound mass are pretty close to what we'd get from the graphs and tables in MacPherson's Bullet Penetration book.

256345

But this simulation assumes a non-tumbling bullet. There's a big difference between a bullet that sails through 31" of gelatin and one that tumbles to a stop in, say, 11" of gelatin. Obviously, the gelatin must have put a much greater force on the bullet to stop it in such a short distance. And if the gelatin put a greater force on the bullet, by Newton's Third Law, the bullet must also put a greater force on the gelatin. So, we'd expect more wound mass. But how much more?

I think a physical argument could be made for the conjecture that a tumbling bullet will produce the same wound mass as a larger caliber bullet of the same weight, same velocity, and same penetration depth.

The graphs below predict the penetration for .60 caliber 207 grain bullet at 600 ft/s to be about 11" with a wound mass of about 23 grams. If the conjecture above is correct, then the wound mass of the tumbling bullets in the C-B gel above might be about the same.

256352

Now, if all this makes sense, it looks like the tumbling .38 S&W bullets have made a significant gain in wound mass as compared to the non-tumbling and over-penetrating bullet in the first graph. Certainly, 23 grams is better than 17 grams.

But as has been mentioned in earlier posts above, a target wadcutter, say 148 grains at 650 ft/s, actually produces significantly better penetration and slightly more wound mass. Here are the simulation graphs:

256351

But just to keep the pot stirred... Consider the graphs below simulating the penetration and wound mass for a 207 grain bullet at 600 ft/s that stops in 17" of validated 10% gel. That bullet would have a predicted wound mass of 27 grams -- fully the equal of .45 hardball. So, maybe the Brits did strike on just the right combination to give their .38/200 Webleys the same "stopping power" (or should I call it "wound trauma incapacitation?") as a .45?

256353

[DCP]

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/tested-federal-hst-38-special-p/

Federal HST .38 Special +P Review and Ballistic Gelatin Test

[pettypace]

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/tested-federal-hst-38-special-p/

Federal HST .38 Special +P Review and Ballistic Gelatin Test

Yes... But what's the lesson?

The brick of C-B gel (about half way down that link with five HST's from a S&W 342) is less than impressive. JHP penetration that is marginal in C-B gel will not likely meet FBI minimum penetration standards in validated 10% ordnance gel.

I wouldn't be surprised if the HST's shown in that link correspond to less than 10" penetration in validated 10% ordnance gel. And if that's true, then those HST's from the 342 might actually be significantly less effective than target wadcutters from the same gun.

In Bullet Penetration Duncan MacPherson calculated wound mass using a "penetration factor" that penalizes under-penetration. He summarized his conclusions in Table 11-6 shown below:

256442

The table shows only 14 grams of wound mass for a 9mm JHP penetrating only 10" in validated 10% ordnance gel and 24 grams for a 9mm "cylinder" (wadcutter).