No More Reloads

[Theditchman]

I went to my local range yesterday and they asked to inspect my ammo ...they told me I could no longer shoot reloads..I went home and called up 3 other ranges in my area and was told the same thing and that my ammo would be inspected..I called up the county run outdoor range and was told the same thing...Is this just down here in S/Florida or is this becoming normal everywhere...the cost of range time here is $15 per hour and of course they will sell you factory ammo at an inflated price..but who can afford $50 for an hours fun anymore:(

[303british.com]

It might not be criminal, but you have to wonder what idiot(s) made that decision.

[Bonz]

a few indoor ranges in the Charlotte NC area ban reloads due to smoke from lube and lead. but of course, they will not allow reloads with fully copper plated or full metal jackets either. I just don't go and shoot there. I would like to hear the reason that the outdoor range will not let anyone shoot reloads there.

[Swede44mag]

Some indoor ranges in Wichita have the same restriction but not all.

[Theditchman]

Outdoor World (Bass pro shop) was one of them

[Thundermaker]

I haven't encountered this myself. I can understand not allowing cast bullets, but not a ban on reloads of any kind.

[303british.com]

I've seen a couple of ranges that would not allow jacketed bullets because of the dangers of ricochets off the back plates, but they allowed cast. Mind you, up here in Canuckia we had (and still have) some very strange rules for ranges. They aren't laws, but when the feds were openly making us register firearms, the local boards of directors would tighten the bylaws in order to suck up to the police (who inspect the ranges). One club had six probationary shoots, where you had to be signed off on a special form that was submitted to the BofD.

WRT bullets, every indoor range here allows cast.

[gspgundog]

In the Chiraq area I have run into two ranges that will not let you use cast reloads but are ok with jacketed reloads.

[pal82]

Is this an insurance liability issue, or a range operator wanting to sell you ammo issue?

[TES]

Is this an insurance liability issue, or a range operator wanting to sell you ammo issue?

Both..they will be outta business soon..unfortunatly!

[olereb]

Indoor ranges here only allow you to use their ammo but the outdoor ranges that I know of allow you to use whatever you have,i always laugh because the ammo I have been offered at the indoor ranges is just basic lead reloads that they made or had their buddy make. The last time I went to a indoor range I had my G17 with me and when they told me I couldn't shoot my factory ammo and would have to buy thiers I left,after letting them know it wasn't the best idea to be forcing people to shoot lead out of factory glock barrels.

[Westwindmike]

I would keep a box of factory loads for them to inspect and keep my reloads hidden.

[CastingFool]

Years ago, when I used to shoot skeet, I was told some ranges did not allow you to pick up your empty shotshells. Their rule was if it hit the ground, it was theirs. I remember thinking if I couldn't pick up my empties, I wasn't going to shoot there. Fortunately, the range where I shot skeet, the rules were much more relaxed.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Easy fix. Sort your brass by headstamp. SS tumble them to a nice shine. Swage some bullets. Load ammo. Put them into old factory boxes.

Then, you will be off :Fire:

[newcastter]

Easy fix. Sort your brass by headstamp. SS tumble them to a nice shine. Swage some bullets. Load ammo. Put them into old factory boxes.

Then, you will be off :Fire:I was thinking something similiar. If you take some extra time and effort and as long as they are jacketed how could they tell??

[otter5555]

I went to my local range yesterday and they asked to inspect my ammo ...they told me I could no longer shoot reloads..I went home and called up 3 other ranges in my area and was told the same thing and that my ammo would be inspected..I called up the county run outdoor range and was told the same thing...Is this just down here in S/Florida or is this becoming normal everywhere...the cost of range time here is $15 per hour and of course they will sell you factory ammo at an inflated price..but who can afford $50 for an hours fun anymore:(


it's all about the money. you have it, they want it. i refuse to shoot anything in any of my firearms that i didnt cast and load.

[Avery Arms]

Around here most commercial ranges ban the use of reloads or even ban bringing your own ammo, they have various excuses but it all boils down to greed. They don't like reloaders shooting cheap ammo or picking up the brass they want to sell for scrap. Also commercial ranges are overpriced to begin with so I always shoot on state or private/club property.

What part of South Florida? I might be able to help you if you are on the west coast.

[Theditchman]

over in ft Lauderdale

[freebullet]

At 15$ per hour I wouldn't go there if they did allow it. Do some searching and find a local outdoor gun club to join. I NEVER go to our local indoor ranges. They do offer overpriced targets, guns, ammo, mags, classes, & attitudes. No $$$$ for them from me. I have to drive a bit further but only pay the gas and yearly dues.

[AkMike]

Did you ask them what the reasoning was behind this decision and how to appeal the decision?

[Theditchman]

No...I could never seem to find anyone in charge..I was just told those are the rules...this weekend I am going to the county range and see if I can find out why

[HeavyMetal]

Here in LA we have two indoor ranges I avoid: one down town has the crazy idea that my brass is thier brass I don't shoot there and don't know how they stay open.

The other wants you to shoot only the new no lead ammo which they make the buck off of. I don't shoot here either and not sure how they stay open but have noticed several time new management signs as I drive by, sounds like a big owner turn over to me.

Again since I do not freqent either range they may have a high dollar clientelle or a local PD contract that allows some subsidizing.

But this is a case where I vote with my wallet and go elsewheres, I have always preffered out door ranges any way.

[RP]

Here what I ran into was pure greed you could go and shoot for 10 bucks a day to start with. I was asked to join several times but I pass stating I was better off to just pay as I went since I only went a few times a year. Then the cost per day went to 20 bucks for a half day so it would work out it would be cheaper to join. I was asked again to join I told him no thanks he did not allow you to shoot your own pistol rounds since that's what he sold. That rule was done away with hoping more would join increasing his membership. I found out later the brass that was picked up on the range was reloaded and put back in the boxes and sold as new. The main reason you could not pick up any brass but what you shot. After learning all the things this guy was doing to pull every dime from every angle he could I had enough and have not been back since. Now I do have other places to shoot but I did enjoy being around other shooters sharing ideals and enjoying the day out. I hope it works out for you guys and I may even try to have a protest of shooters boycotting the ranges it should not take long before they change their minds if its just a greed thing.

[imashooter2]

Did you ask them what the reasoning was behind this decision and how to appeal the decision?

A cynic would probably say the reason is that $15 an hour for lane time is no longer satisfactory and they want to sell more ammunition and once fired brass.

[williamwaco]

some indoor ranges prohibit cast bullets and nearly all prohibit fmj rifle bullets but I don't know anyone that prohibits reloads.

[carbine86]

I guess i feel lucky to be a member of a private club thats board is run by members who get voted into thier positions ...... And to top it off $60 bucks per year 3.1 miles from my house :grin:

[Outpost75]

It is all a plot by the pointy-headed liberal elitists to make shooting too expensive for the working guy who clings to his Bible and guns, they are all Godless evil doers of Satan.

[SquirrelHollow]

The same thing happened with the 3 indoor ranges in the Salt Lake City area, in the mid-90s. Once the first range went to the stupid "No reloads - all brass is OUR brass"-rules, the others followed suit. Before long, they had all gone to "You can only use OUR ammo, purchased at the time you pay your range fee."

Within 3 years, two of them went belly-up. The third had to allow reloads and picking up your own brass, again, just to survive the competition when another range was built in a gun store basement.

As of now, there are something like 9 ranges available. They all allow reloads and most allow retrieving your own brass (as long as it's behind the firing line). They learned that lesson the hard way. :wink:

I know the situation really sucks, but if people 'vote' with their wallet, the ranges should backtrack on the rule change.

[Gunnut 45/454]

I'm bless I have a million acers of public land to shoot on! I'd never pay again to be able to shoot. Sucks to be you city folk who are at to mercy of greedy sharlitons!

[fredj338]

I have to drive 5hrs round trip to shoot what I want. Sad but I won't pay $16/hr & have to buy factory ammo or the ranges **** reloads. I have such an indoor range 10min from my house & will not go. Yes I am stubborn that way.

[fredj338]

It is all a plot by the pointy-headed liberal elitists to make shooting too expensive for the working guy who clings to his Bible and guns, they are all Godless evil doers of Satan.

No, it's greedy gun range owners that drive their shooters away. Even if I am told I can't pick up my brass, I pick up my brass. If they want to ban me, so be it. SOmetimes we are our worst enemies in the gun debate.

[Russel Nash]

There is an indoor range/gunstore that I go to to buy brass 7.62X39 once fired. They are a good source for it because they don't let people shoot the imported steel case stuff because it might have steel or tungsten cores.

To me, that makes sense. You want to keep your steel backstops in good condition.

But, yeah, there is another shyster gunstore/indoor range owner around here who has figured all sorts of ways to make a buck off the place.

[mstarling]

Am sooooo glad I can walk out my side door and plink on my 100 yard range! I do try to keep the real boomers to weekdays during the day so as not to aggravate the neighbors too much!

[Reload3006]

Am sooooo glad I can walk out my side door and plink on my 100 yard range! I do try to keep the real boomers to weekdays during the day so as not to aggravate the neighbors too much!
+1 my own back yard is the best range in the world LOL

[DRNurse1]

Sorry for you folks suffering through this business thing. Remember all those 'new' gun owners after Sandy Hook? They did not have a stock of ammunition nor a good idea about where to practice so they likely as not frequented the local indoor range. The sharp business owner there saw a means of increasing his $$ so, no surprise, there are a bunch of new rules.

Besides voting with our wallet, we need to attract these 'new gun owners' away from these ranges. One local club offers daily membership options (read that as hourly rental if you wish) for $10. But you need a member with you to shoot....so we need to make it possible to invite these guys to your clubs, then do so!

That will magnify your wallet voting and, if the indoor range does not go under, they may get the message.

I use a net to collect my brass and loose only a few cases per rare trip to my indoor range. You revolver folks probably will not need a net. :-D

[DukeInFlorida]

I'm in the Daytona area, and the Volusia County Gun and Hunt Club has 90+ % of it's members reloading ammo for all the steel matches, IDPA, etc.....
I know it;s kinda far from FT Lauderdale, but your reloads are welcome here.

[GRUMPA]

I'm with the guys like Reload3006 and mstarling, I'm pretty much my own range officer/owner of my range, front door back door take your pick kinda thing.

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa341/grumpaboo/SolarArray520x390.jpg

[smilie=2:[smilie=1:

[Newtire]

I went to a range in Bay area California where they don't allow taking head shots at the targets-"Targetmaster's" indoor range in Fremont. Also, they have strict rules about "no-double-tap" shooting.

[xman777]

Banning reloads is only going to drive their monthly income down due to lack of interest.

[Sasquatch-1]

One thing that is not mentioned in the original post. Were these all indoor ranges or were a couple of them outdoor. Most indoor ranges I have inquired at make you buy their no (low) lead rounds due to local environmental laws, as they state.

Luckily I live fairly close to a chapter of the Isaac Walton League that has very nice outdoor facilities. As mentioned by someone else we are self governed and elect our board every year.



I went to my local range yesterday and they asked to inspect my ammo ...they told me I could no longer shoot reloads..I went home and called up 3 other ranges in my area and was told the same thing and that my ammo would be inspected..I called up the county run outdoor range and was told the same thing...Is this just down here in S/Florida or is this becoming normal everywhere...the cost of range time here is $15 per hour and of course they will sell you factory ammo at an inflated price..but who can afford $50 for an hours fun anymore:(

[303british.com]

In the Chiraq area I have run into two ranges that will not let you use cast reloads but are ok with jacketed reloads.

I think I might know why they do this. Lead fumes in the air. I know a few ranges around here were temporarily closed because of inadequate ventilation. Perhaps that is why they will not allow cast bullets.

[dragon813gt]

Not allowing lead bullets but allowing FMJ only makes sense from a lube smoke standpoint. FMJs have exposed lead bases so the whole lead hazard point doesn't fly. It seems that a lot of indoor ranges have pretty poor ventilation systems anyway. The no reloads rules are set by the store owner. Factory loads aren't any safer. Just look at all the recalls on ammo. And then you have the ranges that won't let you bring in reloads but they sell you theirs. Do you really trust them? I know I don't.

If its your only option to shoot. I would buy FMJs. Sort brass by headstamp and keep factory boxes. I would put my reloads in those boxes. They won't be able to tell the difference.

[Bohica793]

Since OSHA fined an indoor range in Florida $480,000 (https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=NEWS_RELEASES&p_id=21627) for lead exposure and another in Illinois $110,000 (https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=NEWS_RELEASES&p_id=22524), many indoor ranges instituted "Lead-free" ammo only rules (consequently, no reloads). The only indoor range in my area attempted to go this route but was unable to get OSHA to provide a standard as to what would qualify as a compliant facility. Rather than face potential litigation and fines, this range is now closed. I talk to the owner frequently and he determined that the cost of letting the space sit idle is far less than the potential liability of the government deciding to pull his chain.

[lup]

Years ago, when I used to shoot skeet, I was told some ranges did not allow you to pick up your empty shotshells. Their rule was if it hit the ground, it was theirs. I remember thinking if I couldn't pick up my empties, I wasn't going to shoot there. Fortunately, the range where I shot skeet, the rules were much more relaxed.

And this is why you shoot a non ejecting shotgun at places like that. Pluck it out, stick it in your pocket.

[EMC45]

Sounds like "Cranial Rectal Inversion".

[bob208]

I have always been lucky when it came to a place to shoot. when I lived at home on the farm we had a range. the n.g. rifle team would come out and shoot on it. they even brought along a m14 and ammo for me to shoot with them. the lt. even took my shot out m1 to camp perry. it came back with a new barrel on it.

then when I got married and bought my own place I was only 3 mi. from a gun club I joined. now after being a member fro 25 years I am a lifer. which means I don't have to pay dues anymore. but I do get to gig lead out of the backstops.

10 years ago we bought the farm now I have my own range again.

[mold maker]

How does the "No Reloads" rule effect the primer lead in the range air? Very little lead free primers used in factory or reloaded ammo.
The whole thing is a trumped up way to rob extra profit off shooters.
I too am faced with the only local range claiming all brass as theirs. They only allowed ammo they sold, as long as they could get it. That died with the shortage, but they still try to claim the brass. Yeah Right, I clean my shooting stall.
I never have to wait, and sometimes I'm alone, because I go either early, or late.

[Baja_Traveler]

When most of our indoor ranges stopped allowing me to take home my own brass I stopped going. I haven't set foot into an indoor range for 20 years now...

[Kraschenbirn]

Just up the road from me, there's a brand new indoor range...with all the bells and whistles...scheduled to open later this month. Range time for the general public will be $20/hr or you can buy an 'annual membership' for $300 that cuts the hourly rate to $10/hr. No reloads (the shooter's or commercial), no factory-load cast or swaged...jacketed or 'lead-free' ammo only!!

Guess I'll have to keep my DRPC membership...$100/yr, range open 9A to dusk, 25-yard pistol, rifle to 300M, and shoot whatever you brung...except full-auto 'cause Illinois don't allow civilian ownership/possession of Class III within the state.

Bill

[gkainz]

Shot at a new range a few months ago, and since reading similar things like this, I asked them "any problems with me shooting reloads and policing my own brass?"

The counter guy looked at me like I had 3 eyes and said "No problem".

When I picked up my brass after shooting, the range officer said "Oh, you reload? Here you go!" and swung a push broom full of brass over to my corner.

[fredj338]

Not allowing lead bullets but allowing FMJ only makes sense from a lube smoke standpoint. FMJs have exposed lead bases so the whole lead hazard point doesn't fly. It seems that a lot of indoor ranges have pretty poor ventilation systems anyway. The no reloads rules are set by the store owner. Factory loads aren't any safer. Just look at all the recalls on ammo. And then you have the ranges that won't let you bring in reloads but they sell you theirs. Do you really trust them? I know I don't.

If its your only option to shoot. I would buy FMJs. Sort brass by headstamp and keep factory boxes. I would put my reloads in those boxes. They won't be able to tell the difference.

Not to mention, all ammo but the NT stuff uses lead based primers. So everyone is still exposed to lead on every firing, FMJ, JHP, doesn't matter.
Another example of the EPA running unchecked under Obama. If you can't ban the guns, banning the ammo or places or making it so expensive, to shoot will make people stop buying guns.

[Nickle]

EPA was after indoor ranges well before 2008. It seems there are problems with lead contamination and ventilation, in respect to meeting EPA requirements. So, it's not new, and not as simple as 0-show's minions wanting back door bans. Those were be easier to stop than the real reasons.

And yes, residue from the priming compounds is an issue greater than many realize.

Now, that explains the issues with honest ranges, which some are. And, some are trying to gouge the shooters to make more $$$. I've said many times gun owners are our WORST enemies, and I'm saying it here.

Vote with your feet, follow DRNurse's suggestion, and help educate the new shooters as well. When you vote with your feet together, you make a bigger impact.

[akajun]

Id show up at the range with my 41long colt, and 40-70 sharps bottle neck, with smokeless loads of course. "what do ya mean no reloads, they aint made factory in this caliber for 60 years"!!!

[garym1a2]

Their are a few in Florida that allow reloads and are not so far. These are outdoors, well run ranges.

In Okeechobee florida; http://okshooting.com/rules/

In palm bay, to 600 yards, http://www.pmrpc.com/

Indian river county; http://www.goshootingirc.com/rules.htm

Orlando, my home range; http://www.cfrpc.com/

[warf73]

Some indoor ranges in Wichita have the same restriction but not all.

Which one I've shot reloads in both places (bullet stop & bulls Eye) in 2013 and both ranges sell RELOADS to use in there range rentals. Unless they changed policy since the first of the year (anything is possible). My membership to Bulls Eye is up at the end of Jan. and if they won't allow reloads guess I'll move on.

[madsenshooter]

Let's hope such nonsense never spreads to Camp Perry!

[Alex_4x4]

Sorry ... I understand what is being discussed is a serious problem.

Make caustic remarks from my side ... maybe not decently.

But want to hear how I would have solved this problem in Russia?

Had collided with such a idiotic a ban.

:coffeecom

[contender1]

As a private range owner, I read all these posts. My range is an outdoors one. It is not open to the public except when we have a USPSA match each month.
That said, I have spent a lot of time & money building my range.
I have studied a lot of the regulations affecting gun ranges.
One BIG thing is liability.
Liability for lead exposure.
Liability for stupid people who do not shoot downrange. (Look at the ceilings, walls & floors of any indoor range.)
Liability for bad reloaders who blow up guns, or have unsafe ammo.

These are just a few of the issues we face.

The EPA has been a thorn in the side of folks who want to build a gun range for a long time.
It costs a LOT to have a proper ventilation system installed & maintained.

Next, how many times have we all seen "Bubba" show up with his reloads that scared us shooting beside him?
Or, how about the guy who wants to shoot AP ammo into the steel?

These are just a few points a gun range owner has to face. Add in the expense of the building, the maintenance, overhead etc.
Just like ANY business there are costs that the consumers do not see or understand.
I know a gentleman who built an indoor gun range about 15 years ago. It isn't big, about 8 lanes, 25 yds. He spent $600,000.00 to build it. How much do you charge to just recover your investment? And do not forget your daily operating costs!
Solid walls, lots of steel, lots of welding, ventilation, heating, etc.
Basically, an indoor gun range is an expensive undertaking.

An outdoor one can cost less, but LAND costs, as well as berms etc.
But most of the comments here are about the inability to use reloads at indoor ranges.

Think about this.
How does "John the gun range owner" know your reloading practices?
He doesn't.
How does he protect his investment and his livelihood from the FEW idiots who do not reload safely?
He buys insurance & puts some rules in place.

Let's face it folks, the anti-gunners want us gone.
They can not take our guns, so they switched the battle front.
They work on lead bans.
They work on magazine capacity limits.
They work on "types" of gun bans.
They attack our ammo in various forms.
They attack gun ranges.
Yes, they want to CLOSE gun ranges.
I know of a few that were forced to close because of a developer who buys near a range, then builds homes nearby. The homeowners then complain. The local governments get involved. Then the lawyers. Most gun range owners do not have enough insurance or deep enough pockets to fight city hall.
Just in the last week or so I read on this forum about Hawaii. How the ONLY gun range there is currently closed for evaluation because a bullet or two "supposidly" left the range. Our Hawaiian shooters now do not have a place to shoot. They can not drive to the country, nor even to another state.
So we need to fight for and support gun ranges as much as we can.
Both outdoor & indoor.

I offer this.
It is possible that the ranges mentioned in S. Florida are just lawsuit scared or scared by the EPA.
I strongly suggest you as shooters go & talk to the owners to POLITELY ask about why they have certain rules.
If they do not have an adequate ventilation system for lead bullets, then it's not a safe range anyway. I would not want to shoot there.
If they are trying to stay in business by keeping the range fees low, then realize that to pay the bills, they need to sell ammo at a profit to keep the doors open.
Or, they may need the brass sales to help stay open.
If that is the case, then offer to pay a higher range rent fee to shoot your reloads or keep your brass.

Remember, when gun ranges close, and you have no place to shoot, (like Hawaii) what will you do then?

The anti-gunners will have won.

[Prospector Howard]

Really good points, contender1. There is a war on us shooters and hunters, and what better way for the anti-gunners to fight than to use the EPA and back door ways to drive up the cost of everything and then divide us. Divide and conquer.

[grumman581]

I went to a range in Bay area California where they don't allow taking head shots at the targets-"Targetmaster's" indoor range in Fremont. Also, they have strict rules about "no-double-tap" shooting.

I encountered a range (I think it was the city run range in SLC) that had a rule saying that you could not shoot human silhouette targets. Seemed to be a nice facility and I could have lived with the restriction, but they would not allow you to shoot handguns on the rifle range even though their handgun range had burned down. The fact that the high for that day was only supposed to be 20F and it was a bit windy and as such my southern butt was freezing off kind of convinced me that it was not worth trying to convince them otherwise. I ended up going to the gun shop with the indoor (basement) range.

[grumman581]

Just in the last week or so I read on this forum about Hawaii. How the ONLY gun range there is currently closed for evaluation because a bullet or two "supposidly" left the range. Our Hawaiian shooters now do not have a place to shoot. They can not drive to the country, nor even to another state.

Seems that with the active volcanoes on Hawaii, they wouldn't mind if a little lead was added to the molten rock.

[WilliamDahl]

Seems that with the active volcanoes on Hawaii, they wouldn't mind if a little lead was added to the molten rock.

And besides, if you have all that ocean around an island, it makes for a good place to catch any bullets that you shoot away from the populated areas. There is a city gun range in Texas City that uses the marshlands and water of Galveston Bay to provide a downrange area for any bullets that miss the berms at the end of the range.

http://www.texas-city-tx.org/shooting_range/index.php
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=texas+city+gun+range&hl=en&ll=29.421657,-94.896147&spn=0.005392,0.010568&sll=29.390103,-94.92754&sspn=0.086301,0.169086&t=h&z=17

For those of us who are over 55, it's only $3 per day. For you youngsters, it's either $6 or $8 (resident vs non-resident).

[rodsvet]

As much as Kalifornia sucks, we have Bureau of Land Management land where you can shoot anything you want 24/7. The Mojave desert is very large. The only problem we have is the disrespectful shooters that take all their trash out there, shoot it full of holes and then leave it there. Some areas have been closed, so if you shoot here, PLEASE pick up your targets and take away twice what you take in. The price of free land to shoot on is not free.

[Flamethrower]

I guess i feel lucky to be a member of a private club thats board is run by members who get voted into thier positions ...... And to top it off $60 bucks per year 3.1 miles from my house :grin:

Don't forget about the 100 work hours that don't really exist, but somehow you have to find a way to make them up. Or the good ol' boy network that is the board.

[Flamethrower]

I'm with the guys like Reload3006 and mstarling, I'm pretty much my own range officer/owner of my range, front door back door take your pick kinda thing.

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa341/grumpaboo/SolarArray520x390.jpg

[smilie=2:[smilie=1:

That has to be nice. Lucky bastard.:wink:

[Pinsnscrews]

One BIG thing is liability.
Liability for lead exposure.
Liability for stupid people who do not shoot downrange. (Look at the ceilings, walls & floors of any indoor range.)
Liability for bad reloaders who blow up guns, or have unsafe ammo.

We are inventive people. We here can think of horrible things that can go wrong at the range. Not because of anything we, as responsible owners and reloaders, do. But because of people who live by the adage "It all YOUR Fault, I didn't do anything wrong and here I am all hurt and **** at your range." Think of all the little things you as a responsible gun owner would take responsibility for doing, and imagine someone with the above mentality. For every claim one of them files, it doesn't just hurt the range where the incident happened, but affects ALL of the ranges that Insurance Carrier covers. You can have a range that has been open 100 years with a ZERO incident ratio. For every incident at other ranges, the rate increase gets spread to that perfect range too. Liability losses are getting EXTREMELY expensive. And they are getting more and more far fetched by the day.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

You do understand that they are in the business strictly to have a place they can shoot, and to make money.

I am still undecided as to whether obama or the firearms industry poses the greatest threat to the 2nd A.

[Nickle]

Idaho, I quit wondering about that question long ago.

Gunowners are the far larger threat to owning a gun.

Obama? He's well on record as the greatest gun salesman of all time. A local shop owner told me he grossed close to $ 4 million last year. I don't doubt it. And, this is one of the good guys out there, that actually is one of US that is trying to protect our rights. How he makes that kind of money? His competition is so "ate up" that they end up helping them out as they are so stupid and greedy (and jerks). They gouge, he doesn't. They "bad mouth", he doesn't. Guess which one shows up to support rights, then backs it up with deeds? Not the jerks!

[WilliamDahl]

You do understand that they are in the business strictly to have a place they can shoot, and to make money.

I am still undecided as to whether obama or the firearms industry poses the greatest threat to the 2nd A.

Good question. (speaking hypothetically, of course) O'Bozo could be fixed by a single Secret Service agent who had taken an oath to defend the Constitution and was willing to do what was necessary. I would assume that fixing the firearm industry would take the actions of a lot more people and a change of attitude.

[AkMike]

That wouldn't work!

Just think of the dolt that's next in line for the job.

[Cane_man]

As much as Kalifornia sucks, we have Bureau of Land Management land where you can shoot anything you want 24/7. The Mojave desert is very large. The only problem we have is the disrespectful shooters that take all their trash out there, shoot it full of holes and then leave it there. Some areas have been closed, so if you shoot here, PLEASE pick up your targets and take away twice what you take in. The price of free land to shoot on is not free.

WORD

i have a nice little shooting spot about 15' from my house on some BLM land... it pays to buy the BLM maps and scout out all the little isolated patches of land there is... often times the BLM plots are 'land locked' by private property and you can't access them without permission

[WilliamDahl]

That wouldn't work!

Just think of the dolt that's next in line for the job.

Which is worse -- an idiot or a malicious idiot?

The fact is that the results *claimed by the leftists* of the 2008 election are invalid because O'Bozo does not meet the definition of a "natural born citizen" (i.e. BOTH of his parents much be US citizens).

http://www.theobamafile.com/obamanaturalborn.htm

We are having a Constitutional crisis right now and no one who is in a position to correct it has the willingness to do so.

[wonderwolf]

I refuse to pay to shoot "by the hour" and with house rules that are not to my liking...simple as that.

[RogerDat]

Seems to me the range is "their house" so they get to make the rules, on the other hand it makes a lot of sense to let someone know you don't come over because their house rules are not to your liking.

[Reload3006]

From the back of the L-shape not visible in the satellite photo is my range it is a hundred 22 yards from my patio there to the back pond bank. The pond will not hold water but it makes an excellent Rifle range. I still wish it held water it would be fun to fish with my grand kids there. but not to be.
http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee403/reload3006/sataliteoffarm_zpsdd2d0591.jpg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/reload3006/media/sataliteoffarm_zpsdd2d0591.jpg.html)

[Nickle]

That wouldn't work!

Just think of the dolt that's next in line for the job.

I've come to the conclusion he isn't in that position by accident. Same for Bush and Klinton, and maybe Bush1 (Cheney, Gore and Quayle). All 4 are bad, worse than their boss is.


Which is worse -- an idiot or a malicious idiot?

The fact is that the results *claimed by the leftists* of the 2008 election are invalid because O'Bozo does not meet the definition of a "natural born citizen" (i.e. BOTH of his parents much be US citizens).



I couldn't find it fairly easily online, but I did research this back in 2004, and came up with him no being a natural born citizen. The reference I found didn't require both parents to be US citizens, just one. But, there have been age and residency requirements over the years, and what the law is when you are born is what you are governed by, in this case. His mother was American, but missed the age and residency requirements needed for BHO to be native born. So, that was the origin of the lies about being born in Hawaii.

Add to that the fact of what happened in the 2012 election. Kind of funny the same guy won EVERY swing state, isn't it? Add to it a few other things, and I'd say the win was stolen. Not much different than 1960. Yup, the dead people in the Chicago area seem to always vote for D. And, yes, dead people in Chicago vote. Have for years. What else would you expect from Daly and his cronies?

[Cane_man]

Add to that the fact of what happened in the 2012 election. Kind of funny the same guy won EVERY swing state, isn't it? Add to it a few other things, and I'd say the win was stolen. Not much different than 1960. Yup, the dead people in the Chicago area seem to always vote for D. And, yes, dead people in Chicago vote. Have for years. What else would you expect from Daly and his cronies?

THIS

Remember the under-reported stories of voters using electronic voting machines and Obama would come up as their selection even though they tried to vote for someone else?

[Nickle]

Actually, I heard some Dems tried one that they punched Romney, but it came up Obama.

Now, that doesn't in any way prove who did it.

I figure some Dems did it, then showed it off, knowing it would point fingers, but not be used until fixed.

Have you ever noticed many cars had political stickers on them after elections prior to 2008, but not many since? Why's that?

Anyways, this really belongs down in the Pit, we are drifting.

[WilliamDahl]

Anyways, this really belongs down in the Pit, we are drifting.

As they say, "All discussions on the internet eventually morph into sex, guns, or politics". We started with guns, so we had a 50/50 chance of it being either sex or politics. :)

[DW475]

Might also check with the NRA field rep in your area and see if he or she is aware of the issues with the range.

[Theditchman]

In answer to a range owners liability question......If I bring reloads to a range and blow myself and others up the rangeowner can be liable..but..is it not true then that if I buy factory loads from the rangeowner and they blow my gun up and others is he not equally liable?...If everyone is made to sign a waiver surely this is adequate to cover the range especially as he is required to have liability insurance regardless...and from what I understand the cost of any liability insurance is based on your yearly business financial income

[wonderwolf]

I hate how liability in this country has shifted to people who shouldn't be liable for others.....If I had a range and somebody brought reloads in and blew their hand off I would just be like "well that sucks for them" and administer first aid while waiting on the squad. I didn't tell that person to come to the range or use their reloads.

[gkainz]

Yep ... the range officer said "I don't care ... your gun, your reloads. You blow it up, it's all on you."

[MT Chambers]

Years ago, when I used to shoot skeet, I was told some ranges did not allow you to pick up your empty shotshells. Their rule was if it hit the ground, it was theirs. I remember thinking if I couldn't pick up my empties, I wasn't going to shoot there. Fortunately, the range where I shot skeet, the rules were much more relaxed.
The reason for this is that they don't want people crawling around the ground and fighting over empties while others are trying to finish shooting their round.

[257]

the only thing I have ever ran into here is some indoor ranges won't let you shoot lead bullits in side. they say it raises the lead vapor in the air. they also want to keep the spent brass they sell it

[brtelec]

Many years ago I worked as a range master at an outdoor range and they allowed you to shoot for free. but asked that you buy their ammo. Not an unreasonable request. If you reloaded they allowed you to shoot them, but ask that you please buy something for reloading there. Their ammo was discounted and they kept plenty of cheap fodder on hand. They were also one of the cheapest places around to buy reloading components. This made the range and their shop wildly popular and incredibly successful. It is not always necessary to screw everybody. You can run a business being fair.

[Theditchman]

That sounds very reasonable

[johnson1942]

this is the saddest post ive ever read. i had no idea things like this happened to keep self reliant shooters from injoying just shooting and reloading. it shows how far out of it we are out here in the rural west. the only thing that stops me from shooting is the weather. but if it is nice i just go to my deck or 25 yards west of my house where i have a range set up. i miss not haveing any one to shoot with but not at the total price populated areas have to pay. i wish i could help you all but i cant. you all have my sympathies. why not plan a shooting vacation. come to western nebraska and bring your guns. their is 100/s of thousands of state and federal land that belongs to you and me, you can shoot to your hearts content. nebraska is very generous with its state land and seems to be buying more and more, beside all the federal land here. we are not just pairie, we have 100/s of thousands of acres of ponderosa pine forest. their is around 25 thousand acres of state land just starting at 16 miles from me. come to western ne. and shoot.

[johnson1942]

p.s. alliance nebraska has a range that is out to a 1000 yards or more. very nice. several years ago it was only 30 dollars a year and proof of membership to the nra. you get a key to go in and out as you want. just clean up after your self. join, and get your key. come and shoot for a week. just a thought.

[ravelode]

I belong to a private club that's 4 miles from my house with 285 acres and 450 members, cost $45 year for NRA members. Most weekends I can have a pistol bay to myself and there is a casual shooting area 1 mile from my house. But evenings and weekends its packed with jerks shooting old tv's, furniture, bottles, computers, etc. Unfortuneatly I work all week 160 miles away and rarely have time to shoot anymore:(

[Theditchman]

In S/Florida more "Old Dears " are shot every week than normal deer...most people live in condo,s or communities where the boards who run these places seem to have dictatorial powers far exceeding the police or government...not much freedom down here