I need the benefit of experience

[Pb2au]

Recently, dad and I found 5 acres for sale adjacent to the state forest where we hunt. We have been looking of and on for property to purchase to put in a hunting/recreation cabin for use by the family.
We are still in the EARLY stages of assessment of this piece of land. Sunday we are going over with a proper plot drawing of the land to walk it and understand better. It is typical eastern ohio land, running up the slope of one of the large hills/small mountains. It is wooded, with no improvements on the property except what could be called a "driveway". By driveway, I mean ox cart path.
So, what I am asking is this;
What would be some questions to ask the property owner?
What would be key points to look out for?
what would be any other considerations to look out for?
The ultimate goal of the project again would be;
The construction of a cabin/cottage.
The construction of a shed or small garage. Both of these structures would be to support hunting in the fall and general recreation of hiking, fishing locally and so on in the summer.
There is power at the road.
I am reasonably sure there is water at the road....
Sewer services are unknown.
Mineral rights are unknown.
It is locked by the state forest on three sides, with the fourth side occupied by a residence.
Many thanks for your consideration.

[Mk42gunner]

My dad always told me to make sure I got the mineral rights to any property that I bought; they did a lot of coal mining and a bit of oil drilling around here.

When I was in Nevada, water rights were a very big deal, probably not so much in Ohio.

Find out how much the power company will charge to set a meter where you want it.

Rural water connection fees, also any county ordinances on sewer or septic systems.

Any building permits required, and is the county zoned?

Good luck,

Robert

[oneokie]

Ask about an offical survey of the property.

[w5pv]

Sounds as if you have everything covered and a very nice location for hunting with out getting off your own property.Try to set up stands close to the public land to deter fence line hunters.

[smoked turkey]

So many decisions!But all exciting. If you need sewer, water, electric for your cabin, I'd see what the owner says about septic systems, well depths or cost per foot for water lines if water is already there. The electric company may be underground friendly and if they are having the facilities buried up to the metering point would preserve the looks of the property and possibly save a few trees vs doing it "overhead". I would make sure the entrance to the property is good and legal whether it is an easement or a dedicated R/W to the property. Are the property corners clearly marked? Is the property fenced? Are there any building codes or restrictions to what you want to do with the property? This is just the tip of the iceberg, as there are so many questions. However I don't think any of it is a hard thing, just want no surprises after the sale that might prevent you from doing what you want to do with the land. I always thought having property adjacent to pubic land could be good and bad. It might be a good parking lot and good entrance to the public land that hunters think they can use to access the public land for hunting and recreation. Good luck on it. It sounds like it could be a nice addition to your family.

[AK Caster]

Ask about power line easements. If one is put in on the property it will eat up a lot of land. Mineral and timber rights should be transferred to the new owner otherwise someone could come in at any time and clear cut the land making it look like ****.

[bhn22]

Ask about any rights of way, easements, and access. Just because you have a "driveway", doesn't mean you have guaranteed access. Does anybody else have any access rights to the property?

[Wayne Smith]

In many areas of the Northeast historic roads and trails create permanent easements. Check this. Dos the land perk? If you need a septic system this is a must.

[texassako]

I would make real sure of water access or if a water well can be dug, if there is sewer at the street or if a septic system can be installed, and what rights convey. 5 acres starts getting tight when you start trying to fit a water well, cabin, shed, and septic field while keeping it all far enough away from the property lines to meet whatever rules the state has declared. Finally, don't take the owners word for it and check with the proper agencies or companies.

[MtGun44]

Reiterate making sure you have access rights. My father bought some land in Va
years ago, wound up paying many thousands of dollars to get an access easement,
and then had big problems later when he needed to sell - the son of the original
guy didn't want the easement to be transferrable to anyone else, making the
land unsellable until they got a new agreement ($$$). You need a transferrable access
agreement if crossing someone else's land and you better have it written
by a lawyer. Subsequent owners or relatives may want to screw with you
and you need a solid agreement.

Understand what the local building code requirements are. Some places have
a minimum size "home" that can be built, and they sometimes REQUIRE
connection to water and power to get an occupancy permit. California is
going out into the desert now where people have been living free for decades'
on land they OWN and telling them that they have to move out because their
home doesn't meet code, so they don't have a valid 'occupancy permit' and
cannot get one until they get connected to power and sewer - which would
cost hundreds of thousands of dollars because of the extreme remoteness
in the desert. Of course, this is the commies in California, but it can
happen elsewhere, too.

Bill

[grumman581]

If you have electricity, then you can have an aerobic septic system. This type of system does not use very much space and outputs basically clear water. Great for irrigation of your property also, although it might not matter as much on this type of property since you will not be using it continuously.

If it is downslope from a hill, ensure that the water flowing downward is not going to flood your house.

[RickinTN]

All good advice above. There are places here in Middle Tennessee where 7 acres is required to build, 5 isn't enough. As mentioned above don't take the sellers' word for your questions. He has motivations which may not get you a truthful answer. Go to the local courthouse and make sure which, if any easements are recorded. Some could be in your favor and others not. Talk to the local planning commission to see if what you want to do and build would be allowed, and what "hoops" you may have to jump through to get a building permit. Your due dilligence is very important here.
Good Luck,
Rick

[Echo]

Many years ago, a fellow I worked with bought a homestead East of Oklahoma City. He was an Aggie, and wanted to raise goats on his property, as well as living on it. Imagine his surprise several months later when some trucks rolled onto his property, went the back, and uncovered an oil well - to which he did not have the mineral rights!

[WILCO]

Ask about an offical survey of the property.

Seek counsel with an real estate Attorney.

[MUSTANG]

Concerning Mineral Rights:

It is not necessarily that you want to be able to mine/lease mineral rights. You want to make sure that NO ONE ELSE mines/leases the right out from under you.

An uncle had a farm in the Panhandle of Texas with someone else owning the mineral rights. The other party leased the mineral rights to a sand and aggregate company who dug up a huge amount of pasture land for aggregate, and there was nothing he could do about it. Lost much of the pasture because back then there was no requirement to recondition the land after mining.

[stephenj]

In eastern ohio right now .. mineral rights are a very big issue . I would bet a pretty large chunk of cash that the property is already under a natural gas lease .. and its also very doubtful that the owner would be willimg to transfer thelease to you ... so you want to have a real good look at the lease ..if there is one .. and be very sure that you dont wake up one morning to a bunch of roughnecks setting up a drill rig

[Wag]

It's almost to the point where mineral rights for drillable commodities (oil, gas, etc.) are moot because horizontal drilling means they don't have to park on top of your property to get at it. Of course, you could have cave-ins, I suppose. Not much you can do to preempt that.

Other advice above is very good.

--Wag--

[dagger dog]

With out reading through all the previous posts, make sure that the owner will let you do a perc' test to make sure the soil will be able to handle the septic system, find out the ratings from the county building permit offices.

[Bloodman14]

In addition to all of the above, have a THOROUGH title search done!

[10x]

Do a thoruough title search - make sure the property belongs to the guy selling it and there are no leans, debts, caveats, or mortgages tied to the title.

Get a copy of the local bye laws and building code. They will tell you what you can and cannot build on that property. Talk to the local building inspector, and if you think the neighbor will not scoop the property, talk to the neighbor. The neighbor may be a tree hugger, or may be willing to sell too - one never knows until one asks.

If you are going to build then the cost of utilities is very important. It cost me over $45,000.00 to put water, sewer, natural gas, and electricity to a building site on 160 acres. A small piece of land would have required a $25,000 sewer field rather than a pumpout.
I was asked to subdivide the property into 14 ten acre parcels with 2 acrews being used for access roads That would have raised taxes from $90 per year to $1,100 per parcel - so total over $14,000 in tax increases. I did not subdivide. I know guys that did and discovered huge tax increases and a carefully managed financial life in their retirement.

The local land tax office can give you information as well - Call the local municipal government office to find out any restrictions in the area placed by local council.

There is also the issue of entitled locals who have traditionally hunted on the property, or used the property to cut wood, or just hike, party, and explore. There are also folks who will squat on private property during hunting season, or just camp there. I have had this happen on one property I own. I have also been asked to leave property by folks hunting on it and claiming permission from the owner....

[quilbilly]

When we bought our property, the real estate (R.E.) people had one property corner on the road marked but not the boundaries so we did our own survey and discovered we had creek frontage (R.E. said we didn't), we had a good location for a well (R.E. people had no idea), underground power went by the property in front of the future driveway (R.E. said it was 1/2 mile away), and the building site had perfect drainage in heavy rain.
In other words, walk the property with a compass in winter when the leaves are down so you can see everything. It did help that I can dowse for water and power. Needless to say, we didn't tell the original owners or the R.E. people any of our findings until the sale closed.

[cbrick]

All good advice, pretty sad actually that all that is really is needed but it is. Welcome to the 21st century.

Sounds like a place that you would do a fair amount of shooting other than hunting, see how close that neighbor is and is he an anti-gunner that will scream bloody murder and make life miserable for you.

Was mentioned in one post above but use caution about the hillside you mentioned, it's amazing how much water can come down the side of a hill in a heavy storm, you don't want your new buildings to be islands in the new pond. I bought this place nearly two years ago and spent most of this last summer building a retaining wall to divert water because of the hill behind the house.

Rick

[wv109323]

How old is the timber? Good timber is quite valuable these days.Make sure you get timber rights.
Is there a power line within 100 ft. of where you will build the cabin. If not the power company will want to set a pole and install a transformer. Very expensive.
Does the "oxpath" cross the property and extend beyond the property boundries. If so in WV it is considered a road and can not be closed off to the public.
I would ask for a property survey. Take it to a land surveyor and ask him if the survey "closes". By that I mean the end point ends up at the starting point when the "calls" are followed. A closed survey carries a lot of weight in court. A closed survey over rides the deed if there is an error on the deed in WV. Also make sure that the survey calls can be established. Be wary of deeds that starts like" Starting at a beech tree along the middle fork of Strange Creek". Property boundaries should be marked with permanent markers like iron pegs or concrete markers.
Mineral rights are important. If there is coal seams that you do not own then the property can be undermined causing surface subsidence and destroying the water table if a water well is used.
Make sure you have a right of way to the property. Get a title search to make sure of the owner(s) and rights that others may own.
Do the neighbors have water wells or public water available.

[garym1a2]

Make sure you like the neighbors. Check for crime in the area. You don't want Meth-heads close by.

[leeggen]

I beleive the op stated that a state reserve bordered on 3 sides. I would check with them and see if that cart path might be a road into the preserve. As said before check with a surveyor about the boundries, what the present owner says may not be.Also check with the county officials as to what you can do with the property. It realy is not any of the present owners business as to what you plan to do to the property. Your ideas may get the sale price increased. ALWAYS remember BUYER BEWARE!!!!
CD

[Pb2au]

Wow this is excellent information. This is exactly what I was hoping for, real world experience. Keep it coming, this is perfect.

[country gent]

Check Zoning in the area as to whats allowed what isnt. Again mineral and water rights are important also. Take a Sunday afternoon and go "visiting" the nieghbors around this property. Stop in a local diner have luch and ask around about water schools community and other issues. A friend has property bordered on s sides by park land and theres alot of tresspassing that goes on. People park in his yard to entter the park property from that end. Eassments old agreements can become a hassle also. Have a search done on the property for past buildings, uses, tiles gas lines power lines running thru or over can restrict what can be built and where. Is any of the land tillable? Older woods are valuable for timber. Heres anothe thing with wooded lots, There were a type of pine they planted around here that were ment to be harvested for pulp wood at 30-35 tears around 40-50 they start dying off. Several have built Log homes in wooded setting to have the woods start dying off. Find out all you can from records nieghbors and other people before making a decission.

[Pb2au]

Update;
We are heading out to take a walk of the property on Sunday. Thanks to all the info provided here, we are moving forward better armed.
I wicked the Mrs on the realtor today and got some more information. We have the last survey date, and the surveyor who did it. We also have a dimensioned plot drawing. A little more research proved out the property has no liens, back taxes, Jimmy Hoffa buried on it. There appears to be no zoning on the property to restrict the use of it as a deer camp, or later the construction of a cottage. We are confirming all of that next week.
So, this crazy endeavor is forward a little bit.
We still ha

[Pb2au]

Have to dig up a ton of information yet, but we are just taking it one piece at a time and try to cover our bases as best as possible.

[montana_charlie]

Enclosed on three sides by 'government land' and a 'residence' on the fourth side.
If you can't secure guaranteed access forever in a one-time event/agreement, you might want to think about it ...

[AK Caster]

Couple of people mentioned a survey. Before you commit to a survey I suggest you get a couple of estimates. It cost a lot more than what most people think.

[Pb2au]

Enclosed on three sides by 'government land' and a 'residence' on the fourth side.
If you can't secure guaranteed access forever in a one-time event/agreement, you might want to think about it ...
To clarify this, the north and east side is directly adjacent to a state forest. The west side is adjacent to another parcel of private land. The south side is bordered by the road. On the opposite side of the road is more state forest.
So there is access to the parcel.

[MtGun44]

Public road access is great. Once you know the borders accurately and what the
building code and deed restrictions are you are close. Find out about mineral
rights and water situation. I think on most of the east half of the country, water
isn't any big deal but out west it is a HUGE deal. Sometimes, western land has had the
water rights stripped off and is near worthless because of it.

Bill

[chambers]

Since you are bound by State on 3 sides and another owner on one side- Must have a legal easement to property in writing on easement for vehicle access, without this it is a no go. Then need utility easement for power. I have going through this similar deal, uphill battle all the way if not done up front. Make sure the site is buildable and have enough acres.

[waksupi]

Public road access is great. Once you know the borders accurately and what the
building code and deed restrictions are you are close. Find out about mineral
rights and water situation. I think on most of the east half of the country, water
isn't any big deal but out west it is a HUGE deal. Sometimes, western land has had the
water rights stripped off and is near worthless because of it.

Bill
Very true. Years ago, a friend bought a small piece of sagebrush down in Wyoming. The surrounding land was all owned by a development corporation. Sam had a good well on his property. The company found out they DIDN'T have water on theirs. They tried to buy him out at first. No sale. Then they tried making him default on his loan payments, to force him off the land. Another friend went to his bank, and paid it off in cash for him as a personal loan. Sam ended up as the defacto possessor of over 150,000 acres.

[MUSTANG]

Very true. Years ago, a friend bought a small piece of sagebrush down in Wyoming. The surrounding land was all owned by a development corporation. Sam had a good well on his property. The company found out they DIDN'T have water on theirs. They tried to buy him out at first. No sale. Then they tried making him default on his loan payments, to force him off the land. Another friend went to his bank, and paid it off in cash for him as a personal loan. Sam ended up as the defacto possessor of over 150,000 acres.


Waksupi is right about the value of land in the west being low after the water is stripped off. Our house in Moapa is about 700 feet from the Muddy River, but was barren when we bought it. Until the 1970's it was all lush alfalfa fields in that area. After Howard Hughes died, our property and many others there, were subdivided from about 1 Million acres he had owned. Along with that, much of the water was sold off by the Estate, including where ours was located. We bought the property and started looking for water rights, and after a five year search finally bought some. Our property is now one of very few that is green in a valley that used to be lush until all the water was sold off.

[10x]

If you make the purchase and have power run in, see how much difference $$ to have it delivered underground. I recall it cost us $1/ft to have ours run in.

Cell service in our area was very weak, and I've since purchased and installed an external antenna, amplifier, and internal antenna. We went from almost no signal to 3-4 bars in the house.

Be aware of direction, and potential water runoff. I had our house built near the top of a knob with E/SE exposure, so no runoff issues and morning sun.

An over head power line of 300 Feet cost me $7500.00 - one cross bar, two guy wires. 2 100 yard power cables, 1 pole in the yard, and a 10 KVA transformer. Underground would have cost about double that because it would have had to cross a road and be trenched in.
Check slopes for run off, and for a sewer field. It is very important to keep your sewer field separate from your water supply, and make sure the sewer field drains away from any buildings. Also check the prevailing wind direction. Having a wind break can save you energy bills in the winter and increase the comfort level of your home.

[MaryB]

At those prices I would seriously consider going off grid with solar. Could do a large solar install for that price.

[Jammersix]

Nobody buys non-commercial real estate in cold blood. Nobody.

Lots of people think they do, lots of people have spreadsheets and logical arguments, but all non-commercial real estate is sold on emotion.

There is only one question.

Do you like it?

[10x]

My power was extended from a neighbor's property more than 1/2 mile away. Poles were set on several other properties after gaining permisssion. Right of way was cut on a couple of parcels by a tree company(for the overhead), and I cleared the ROW for the underground. It was trenched by another contractor using trackhoes. They hit some rock and had to bring in another rig to break some of it up, and then several truck loads of rock dust for around the buried cable. From the transformer to the house, about 200', the cable is in conduit. Total cost to me was ~$1200. That was $1/foot for the underground cable cost.

ATCO has a monopoly on electrical installation and delivery here. I could have installed underground cable for about $3.00 a foot from the line to the junction box in the yard -but ATCO will not connect to a line they did not install....

I paid the cost of the pole, wire, and transformer, yet if I terminate the service ATCO comes and removes these parts as I do not own them. There is no refund....
That is capitalism and a monopoly....

[dbosman]

Make sure it's legal to build what you want, in the order you want to build it in. Some places require a house, before anything else.

[DRNurse1]

Excellent advice so far. I concur with consulting a real estate attorney. I generally do not care for this ilk but they speak the language you and I do not and can save you years of heartache.

One thing I did not see mentioned (or missed) was prior use of this property. There are a number of former 'dump' sites here in the East which have turned into real nightmares for subsequent owners. I have a friend who is into archaeology and hiking who I can convince to wander around a chunk of property. He was instrumental in 'discovering' an abandon junk yard on a likely piece of property saving me fines and clean up, and discovered two 'family dumps' on our current remote property that are yielding all kinds of pottery and jewelry treasures.

The right of way and mineral rights information is great as is the sewerage and garbage disposal information. Consider that electric and water may need an alternate process if you intend intermittent use in a frost/ snow area. Solar- and hydro-electric power are options not mentioned, and having a water supply you can turn off and on and drain when out of and unheated house is useful in this type of environment.

That said, land ownership and planning a family future involving this type of project is exciting and promising. I wish you well and hope you can iron out things to your satisfaction and move on with this neat project.