30/06 CB without gas check?

[willy]

Is there any 30/06 loads that work without a gas check design?
I'm looking for a load somewhere around 150-200gr. bullet at 1500-1800fps.
Thanks for any info.


Willy

[Larry Gibson]

Depends on what your definition of "work" is. If you mean will the bullet go out the barrel with some capability of shooting inside 10-20 MOA then yes there are lots of loads. However if you want a PB bullet (One that IS a PB bullet and not a GC bullet without a GC) to shoot well then somewhere in the 1100 t0 1400 fps is your best bet. RCBS 30-150-CM is a very good bullet for this. Bullseye and Unique are two good powders.

Larry Gibson

[willy]

Thanks for the info and fast reply Larry.
I'm new here and never shot a cast bullet from a centerfire rifle -yet
So I can use all the info I can get from you guys.


Willy

[lastmanout]

Howdy Will, get ALL the copper fouling out or your barrel (I like the foaming bore cleaner made in Finland). Be sure to get a small chamfer and nice flare on mouth of the brass, if you see lead shavings after seating your boolits, accuracy will suffer. These two tips helped me alot in the beginning. Hanging out here, a guy can learn alot:castmine:

[B747]

Willy

1500-1800 fps is a little on the high side for a plain base bullet. I have had much better results in both accuracy and less leading down in the 1200 fps range.

Try something like 9 to 10 grains of Unique --- seems to work great in everything from the 308, 7.62X54R, 7.5X55 Swiss to the 30-06 for punching holes in paper targets out to 200 yards.

Use a fairly soft alloy at these low pressures --- something like 2/3 WW and 1/3 Pb --- should be down in the 9 to 10 BHN range.

By the way if one believes the ballistic tables, you are not going to be fighting more wind drift down at these low velocities.

Lyman 311299 200gn 10 mph wind drift at 200 yards
1700 fps ---- 7.59 inches drift
1100 fps ---- 6.23 inches drift

Wally

[Maven]

willy, scroll up to the "Group Buy Mold Results" forum and check out my targets in the thread, "Lee 30-150-TL-PB in my .30-06." All of the above advice is correct in that plain based cast bullets require velocity to be limited in comparison to their gas checked cousins; which isn't a bad thing since you use less powder. E.g., 9grs. of Unique or 10gr. of Blue Dot v. ~double that (or more) with powders such as WC 820, H/IMR 4198, XMP 5744, etc.

[willy]

Thanks for all the info guys!
Looks like I'M in for some learning.Glad I found this site.


Willy

[fireflyfather]

How much red dot for a similar load in a Mosin? I'm using Lee 312-160-TL w/ liquid alox. I don't have gas checks or a press at this time (Lee Loader only), so need to keep the velocity down.

[RU shooter]

How much red dot for a similar load in a Mosin? I'm using Lee 312-160-TL w/ liquid alox. I don't have gas checks or a press at this time (Lee Loader only), so need to keep the velocity down.
I've shot that boolit (WQWW) with 9.0 grs. of Red Dot without any problems in a 50 rd match with the M39 .

[jack19512]

How much red dot for a similar load in a Mosin? I'm using Lee 312-160-TL w/ liquid alox. I don't have gas checks or a press at this time (Lee Loader only), so need to keep the velocity down.





Hope you have better luck without the gas checks and your Mosin than I have had. Maybe something I am doing/not doing but I can't get cast to shoot worth a crap in any of my Mosins, 91/30, M44, and M38 without the gas checks. With the gas checks they do pretty fair so far. Now my K31 and 45/70 do good without the gas checks. If you have good luck without the checks I would like to hear about it so I can try it myself.

[fireflyfather]

Yeah, I'm not water quenching. I'm trying to use the simplest, least complex method of casting (air cooled WW w/out gas check). So, what would be the minimum safe load to exit the barrel with Red Dot? I know Ed Harris wrote more than just one article on it, but I can only find "the load" online (13gr red dot w/ gas check).

Anyone know any other stuff online he wrote about this?

[Bob B]

I use 7 grains of red dot in my 308 under the RCBS 30-165 sil.bullet with good results.8 to 10 grains should work in the 30-06 Bob B

[Ricochet]

Why in the world do you think it's complex to drop a boolit out of a mould into a bucket of water? I think it's easier than dropping them on a towel without getting them dinged up against each other.

[B747]

Why in the world do you think it's complex to drop a boolit out of a mould into a bucket of water? I think it's easier than dropping them on a towel without getting them dinged up against each other.

There is a problem though with water quenching WW bullets and shooting them down in the 1200 fps / 14,000 psi range in a reduced 30-06 plain base load. They will end up way to hard for this --- almost like shooting linotype.

When I've tried it, I've gotten more leading and larger groups due to the gas cutting going past this hard bullet.

Wally

[Ricochet]

If the boolit's too small for the bore, that will happen.

Water quenched boolits don't have to be linotype-hard. As I've often mentioned, most of mine are cast from very soft scrap that's easily thumbnail-dentable when air cooled. (Not strictly pure lead, however.) Hardens up about like air cooled wheelweights after quenching. Other mixtures of alloys like wheelweights and soft lead will give intermediate hardnesses, but the hardness goes up very quickly as more antimony is added in the lower ranges, slowly as you get up around the range of wheelweight metal and higher. A little alloy goes a long way with quench hardening.

I water drop all mine, because it's easier to make 'em that way. if I really want soft boolits, I stick a batch in the oven, heat 'em up, turn the oven off and let it cool.

I just thought it odd that fireflyfather has previously mentioned in strong terms that he did not ever want to do anything like quenching, like it was some onerous or dangerous thing to do. (Maybe because some have exaggerated the risks of having water around a casting pot?)

[fireflyfather]

Ricochet: It's not dangerous, provided you don't let water splash into the cavities or sprue plate . It's complex in that my casting area is extremely cramped, and outside is not an option (family issues/detente); I don't have physical space in my work area for the bucket. There is also the issue of hardness changes over time with water cooled WW. These bullets may very well sit around for years after being cast, or get used next week.

I am not knocking anyone else's procedures. I just do not want to WQ. I'm trying to get info on air-cooled, and if I don't categorically state that I don't want to WQ, then the only answers I get are to WQ, which doesn't help me at all.

The other issue is that one of my molds that I use frequently needs some lee-menting, as it doesn't drop the bullets consistently, and takes a really good whack/shaking to get the bullets out, which will probably cause a lot more splash than bullets that fall out easily. More splash equals more chance of getting water into the cavities.

[MT Gianni]

Ricochet: It's not dangerous, provided you don't let water splash into the cavities or sprue plate . It's complex in that my casting area is extremely cramped, and outside is not an option (family issues/detente); I don't have physical space in my work area for the bucket. There is also the issue of hardness changes over time with water cooled WW. These bullets may very well sit around for years after being cast, or get used next week.

I am not knocking anyone else's procedures. I just do not want to WQ. I'm trying to get info on air-cooled, and if I don't categorically state that I don't want to WQ, then the only answers I get are to WQ, which doesn't help me at all.

The other issue is that one of my molds that I use frequently needs some lee-menting, as it doesn't drop the bullets consistently, and takes a really good whack/shaking to get the bullets out, which will probably cause a lot more splash than bullets that fall out easily. More splash equals more chance of getting water into the cavities.

What you are describing is water dropping. Get a used toaster oven, heat one bullet until it begins to slump or melt then drop your temp 25 Degree F. Heating the bullets for 1 hour and dropping them into water can be done away from your lead pot. It will give you the hardness you need to shoot without a gas check. You are only hearing about water dropped because air cooled won't do it at the speeds you have described.
Yes the fact that gas checks added 1cent a shot to our loads is irritating but most of us are atill using them. Gianni

[fireflyfather]

minimum safe load to exit the barrel

Um, I have a hard time believing that minimum safe charges are going to lead with a plain base bullet. We're talking what, 800-1000fps? I know that Ed Harris talked about using un-gas- checked bullets with reduced, near-subsonic loads. I just can't find the article at the moment. I really appreciate all the help people are willing to lend here. I'm not trying to be ungrateful, I'm just looking for very specific information to a specific problem. I know a lot of people here heat treat and/or water quench. I am not interested in doing that. I am just trying to find what CHARGE will lower velocities enough for the projectiles I want to use to be safe/not lead.

I know that water dropping is not the same as heat treating. The problem is that I have limited space and equipment at the moment, and am trying to find a way to make this work until I can get more space/equipment. I don't even use a press to reload my ammo. Using the oven or other kitchen appliance is NOT an option, and separate toaster ovens/etc are not an option either. I just need a charge that is low enough not to lead, and high enough not to get stuck in the barrel for 7.62x54r.

Would that I had an understanding spouse, large rural work area, or $$$. As it is, I am a poor urban laid-off (low enrollment) schoolteacher with a family to feed, and a hoplophobe spouse. As it is, I just get to sit here green with envy. :)

[RU shooter]

I just need a charge that is low enough not to lead, and high enough not to get stuck in the barrel for 7.62x54r.

Water quenched or air cooled makes not much difference with these low vel loads in my rifles, here a few of them:

150-180 gr. UN gas checked boolits WW alloy

5-8 grs bullseye, 700X ,Red dot, 231, ect. Just pick one
7-10 grs of Unique

Not much to it, just pick one(I recomend Bullseye and Unique ) and play around with charge weights till accuracy peaks. My first experiment with un gas checked bullets was 10 grs of Unique and a Lee 155 in my M39 and still will shoot .75 groups at 50 yds. easy shooting and no leading vel. is prob. in the 1150-1200 fps range. For subsonic shooting 6.0 grs of Bullseye is by far the winner in my M39 and 03A3 even out at 100 yds a 2-2.5" group is the norm.

As for sticking a boolit I tried a quite a few whisper loads in 54R and went as low as 2.5 grs of Red Dot and it still made it to the target 50 yds away. So not to worry!

[grumpy one]

There are options that should give workable accuracy with plainbase bullets in a 30-06. I use 311255 119-grain plinkers myself with small charges of pistol powder. However the very large case capacity of the 30-06 makes this a fairly marginal proposition - I think better results could be had with heavier bullets and/or a smaller case. On top of that I just get tired of waiting for those under-1400 fps bullets to get to the target, which at 55 yards gets hit something like 8" below where a j-bullet would hit. It isn't a penetration problem especially - it hits the target with some authority - but on a scoped rifle that regularly shoots j-bullets, it is pretty much of a pain.

So far as using gas check bullets without a check is concerned, I've never tried it. Reports seem to be largely but not exclusively negative. The main issue is how to get consistent performance from a few kernels of powder slopping around in a giant boiler-room. My limited experiments with fibre filler have not produced any miracles, and I have gotten myself into trouble once by foolishly compressing the filler down onto the powder, leaving an air space. DON'T DO THAT!

With regard to bullet hardness, I don't see why you would want to use anything above 14 BHN because you may not get it to obturate before it gas-cuts at these low pressures. Having said that, I haven't investigated the large range between say 8 and 14 BHN to see what works best. Also, hard bullets can be used successfully at low pressures provided you have a superlative fit in a superlative barrel.

I'm inclined to agree with Ricochet that for bullet hardnesses of 14 BHN or below, using 2 to 3% antimony then heat-treating the bullets to harden them is likely to be an easier way to get consistent results than air cooling 5% antimony bullets. I do the latter, but have to reject all bullets that aren't completely frosty. Even when air cooled, my 5% antimony alloy comes out at over 24 BHN if cast in a warm rather than extremely hot mould. Air cooled from a hot mould, they are a consistent hardness averaging 13.6 BHN. Because I find that bullets cast into a warm mould vary in weight excessively, and those cast into a hot mould do not, for the moment I'm satisfied to use 5% antimony and a Bruce B-like casting technique - but a new caster may find it takes a while to get the hang of this.

[twidget]

Yeah, I'm not water quenching. I'm trying to use the simplest, least complex method of casting (air cooled WW w/out gas check). So, what would be the minimum safe load to exit the barrel with Red Dot? I know Ed Harris wrote more than just one article on it, but I can only find "the load" online (13gr red dot w/ gas check).

Anyone know any other stuff online he wrote about this?

This is probably what you are looking for:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=13425

I've tried some of his recommendations and they seem to work. Mine were with Lyman 311291 boolits softer than WW and 6 grains of 700X in a .30-30. Very pleasant to shoot, but accuracy needs improvement. More experimentation will fix that I'm sure.

[fireflyfather]

Thanks, that's exactly the article I was looking for.

[jack19512]

So far as using gas check bullets without a check is concerned, I've never tried it.






I have tried this in my Mosins and my K31. Same exact load except with/without the gas check. I have yet to get really good accuracy out of my Mosins either way but without the gas checks accuracy was much worse.

Now, in my K31 I get real good accuracy with cast and gas checks and not as good without the gas checks but still not bad. I think the difference between my Mosins and my K31 is the K31 has nice shinny lands and grooves and my Mosins barrels are not as good shape, actually rough looking compared to my K31.

I have actually started using my K31's for my cast and back to jacketed bullets for my Mosins.

[Ricochet]

Okey-doke, fireflyfather, I see where you're coming from.

As an aside, water splashing into a mould cavity matters not at all if the mould's properly preheated. Hisses as though it fell on a hot stovetop and disappears.