Smokeless load for pedersole 45-70

[Jjed]

I am new to this site,and think it is great.
any help with Smokeless load for pedersole 45-70 using a lee cast
405 gr boolit would be appreciated.

[Nueces]

Welcome, Jjed, stick around and help make the site even better!

As to your question, I've had fine results recently with my Pedersoli Sharps 45-70 and the Oregon Trail 405 bullet sized 0.459 over 28/5744, WLR primers. Really dirty, lots of granules left in the bore, but comfortable to shoot and three shots into 1 1/8" at 100 meters. My buddy has similar results in a scoped Ruger #1, Marlin Guide Gun and his new Brownchester High Wall. This is a fairly standard BP-equivalent load.

After a range session, we pull some lead flakes out of the ends of our chambers, due, we think, to the lack of a decent throat. I'm about to experiment with some cut-down 45-90s to see if full length cases help. A throating reamer will be next.

Mark

[testhop]

welcome jJed
i hunt in fulton county iin the south center part of P.A
yea i know i am a darn out stater but i have been hunting above ROBERTSDALE for 40 years so i am no longer called out stater

[HEAD0001]

I load 40.0 grains of RL7 for about 1600 fps from my Pedersoli. I cast the Lyman 405. Tom.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o223/HEAD0001/IMG_0311.jpg

[KCSO]

Head,
That is why I recommend a 45-70 to folks. You can shoot from 1300 45-70 loads to 45-110 1600 fps loads and not have to spend a dollar a pop for brass and sixty bucks for dies. I prefer a milder load and run 15 grains of Trail Boss for 1300 fps and same poa as B/P. Groups are under 3" from my iron sighted Sharps carbine.

[freedom475]

I have had good success with my Pedersoli 74 45-70 with 405gr laser cast boolits over 40-50gr. of Varget. I had bad velocity variations until I stopped crimping the shells now the stay uniform.

[MtGun44]

Mine loves 57.0 W748 under an RCBC 405, but I haven't been able to get
my Lee 405s to shoot well in several different .45-70s (TD, Marlin GG and
Win86). Thisis a TD pressure load, according to a Brian Pearce article in
one of the Wolfe mags, Handloader, IIRC.

Bill

[Jjed]

Thanks Guys
Great info, sorry i didn't back to you sooner been busy. would be great to see
pictures of game and targets shot with your pedersoli.
thanks again.
Jim

[HEAD0001]

I am taking mine hunting tomorrow or the next day(weather). Hopefully I will kill a doe, and get some pictures. I also hunt in SW PA. I will be hunting in PA on Saturday(Jollytown area). Tom.:castmine:

[Buckshot]

..............28.0grs H4198 and any 405gr slug works well.

............Buckshot

[Jjed]

Currently I am shooting 26 gr of 2400 that shoot well, I am trying to get idea's of what other loads are safe to shoot out of the pedersoli I'm not sure how much pressure this gun can take.
I carried my sharps hunting this year 3 days at a friend’s camp near benezette
Pa no luck saw 60 elk and 7 deer and got lots of funny looks and comments
about my choice of firearm.
I am going out again this Saturday closer to home to try again.

Good luck Tom hope you are seeing more deer than me.
Tom where did you get your rear sights and how much if you don't mind me asking.

Thanks guys

[HEAD0001]

The rifle came with the sight's. I gave $1800 for the rifle at Ace's in Washington. PA. Tom.

[montana_charlie]

If that is a Pedersoli sight (and it might be) it must be the USA 430.
Do you have any good, clear close-ups of the sight...especially from the left side?

A picture of the eyecup all alone would help, too.
CM

[freedom475]

With Black Powder the 405 cast will shoot right through a bull elk and a 500gr cast through a buffalo at 1200fps. No need to hurt yourself or your gun.

With all the hype I've read about "chamber ringing" I would not use pistol powder. I would use a slower powder that fills more of the case,(40-50gr) or a bulky powder like Trail Boss. 2400 is a pistol powder. An accidental double charge of that stuff might just blow the gun up in your face.

Be safe, have fun, and Pedersoli's rule:Fire:

[Jjed]

Thanks freedom 475
good info
Jim

[Jjed]

Tom
Any luck hunting with the pedersoli. I carried mine all season and never had
A chance to pull the trigger. Hope you had better luck than me.
Jim

[Nardoo]

My smokeless load for the 45/70 uses 4 gns of Benchmark 1, a compressed filler and the Saeco 748 cast in 25:1 which weighs 480 gns. I get 1210 fps with that load and great accuracy with my home made lanolin lube.

Oh, the filler is 56 gns of Goex FFg.:-D

Nardoo

[WBH]

My best smokeless load to date for the 405gr boolit is 28gr 5744. CCI 200, no crimp, seated into the rifling. I have shot sub MOA at 100 yards with this load.

[Jjed]

Good info, will try out your load in my gun.
I'll let you know how it worked out.
Thanks
Jim

[Kenny Wasserburger]

You guys are playing with fire in my opinion, your pedersoli's are not heat treated to withstand those kind of presures and loads. Contact Dick Trenk the 45-120 or 45-70 are not ever close to waranty for those kinds of loadings. Pedersoli does not reconmend smokeless loads at all in their Sharps rifles.

Kenny Wasserburger

[montana_charlie]

Pedersoli does not reconmend smokeless loads at all in their Sharps rifles.
Kenny Wasserburger
Yep. Without even getting into smokless powders, Pederosoli's liability does not cover, "use of defective, improper, hand-loaded or reloaded ammunition, or other than original, good condition, high quality, commercially manufactured ammunition,"

But...most of us hand-load anyway, and just pray that these poor old guns hold together for one more shooting session.

By the way, KW...
Which accredited facility is it that stamps the proof marks on those Shiloh guns...before they are put up for sale?
CM

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Charlie,
No where in my post did I mention Shiloh's Did I? I looked again, nope in my post nothing about Shilohs, just warning against posting Smokless loads for guns not rated as such. That was my intent all along you however seem hell bent on doing something else?

I stepped in to offer advice against a potential dangerous practice, too offer some safe advice. Compressed loads of 4831 in a 45-120 case Thats Nuts! Condoning such on this forum is not a smart thing to do.

As you know, then again maybe you dont? No US gun maker Proofs their guns? never seen Proof house marks on Brownings, Winchesters, Remingtons sold here in the USA? Have you? Now some american made guns sent over seas yeah have seen them come back with Proof House markings. The USA does not have a Proof house, Proof houses are a Euro thing.

However since you mention Shilohs, in some attempt to bait me, lets talk about them for a bit, Shiloh has had guns sent in to blow up and see what it takes to Take one apart I have seen the letters stating what it takes to blow one up. Pedersoli guns are proofed to 42,000 Cup, (Dick Trenk Info) Pedersoil's are not rated at Ruger #1 loads or any smokless loads, in their 45-70, Shiloh's on the other hand are. I feel sharing Smokeless loads on this forum for Pedersoli's is not a wise thing to do, someone stating it will take 458 loads? maybe? HOW MANY TIMES once, twice? thats the question. I feel thats very reckless behavior and Dangerous.

I have seen one blown up no make that 2 blown up Shiloh's one they sent in to have blown up, and one where some poor fool had been told that 5744 was a bp sub and had filled the case full of it (45-110) and on the 3rd shot it had let go. Lucky for the shooter he walked away and Shiloh split the cost with him and built him a new rifle.

You brought up Shiloh, I did not.

Kenny Wasserburger

[freedom475]

The Guns shoot very well with BP and the Brass is the only thing that is a pain to clean(still not that bad with vinegar).

The rifles clean-up very easy.

It was NOT Charlie that posted the ":twisted:SCARY INFO and I have since went and deleted the info as I agree that you should buy a Ruger No1 if you want to shoot high power loads.

I will end this by saying.... We are all responsible for our own actions!..... If you try something STUPID do it ALONE so no one else is hurt by your ignorance.

Thank you and good shooting:Fire:

Freedom475

[WBH]

I have been alot of things..........But never STUPID.

BTW 28gr of 5744 with a 405gr cast bullet in a .45-70 is well within acceptable pressure ranges for the Pedersoli Sharps and RB's. Hell, it is a Trapdoor load.

Let's do our homework here guys.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

WBH,

I actually hate to answer to folks that lack the stones to use their own name.

I was not refering to your loads, no were did I personally mention you or your loadings, the compressed loads of 4831 and the mention of loading A Pedersoli 45-70 to 458 Win presures, was what I was infering too as not smart and was dangerous. Be what it may the information I posted is correct Pedersoli insists on no smokless

And I looked all over in my posts not a darn place I can find where I infered your stupid?

However, if you think in my posts that I called you stupid, it would appear you might not be a very good reader?

I remain,
Kenny Wasserburger

PS I look forward to your snappy come back!:mrgreen:

[WBH]

Kenny, You must be getting paranoid in your older age....WHERE did you see mention of your name in my post. Was I referring to YOU or YOUR post???
I do believe that freedom475 used the "S" word. I stand firm in my response, and that is my "snappy reponse". Let the lead fly.

[freedom475]

Kenny,

On the 2 sharps rifles you saw that were "blown-up". Where did they fail? The barrel, block or frame. Just curious. I have heard that the stock is the weakest link?

Everyone ,
This thread seems to be getting a little heated. I removed the "High Pressure" info. It was a statement and by NO means a suggestion and NO specific data was ever given.

We are all here to have fun and BS with people that share the same interests. If there is a little "ribbing " that goes on I hope it is with smiles. Being here brings me pleasure and is just plain Fun. The "S" word was not aimed at anyone specific, Just a note to self that if I want to blow my head off I should do it alone as to not endanger anyone else.

Thanks:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::drinks: :Fire:

[EDG]

Here is a link to "Pedersoli Proof Test Rules and Allowable Limits"

Kenny you need to read it.

http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/pedersoli_proof_rules_and_allowable_limits_09-04.htm

[floodgate]

EDG:

Thanks for the "word from the horse's mouth"; lawyers aside, it looks like a reasonable statement.

Kenny:

The major US makers DO (or used to) maintain their own "proof houses", instead of subscribing to a national proof-house. The older Marlins and Winchesters DID have their own "proofmarks" "PW" and "JM" stamped on the breech end of the barrels, and I believe Remington, Colt and S&W did proper proof-testing, too. NONE of them - at least in the 1900's - stamped their name on the firearm until it had been subjected to a proof at LEAST as stringent as any of the European proof houses. And, read some of the hassles in English literature from the 1800s about the maneuvering between the London "high class" and Birmingham "volume production" proof-houses. They aren't all saints over there either. Pedersoli at least comes out and says what they mean by "proof".

floodgate

[waksupi]

Home

Pedersoli Proof Test Rules and Allowable Limits

Many BPCR owners are concerned about the safety of original and replica rifles. Of course an original should be examined by a gunsmith who is familiar with such arms and who is competent to pronounce the arm safe or unsafe. There is always the temptation to try and shoot an old gun which may have been in your family a long time or which you recently obtained. In most cases it is safe to fire such an old gun using the correct black powder and bullet weight but the following advice should be considered first.

Certain types of steel alloy used in original guns of the BP era may have changed over the 100+ years of time. Once safe guns may now have internal cracks or molecular flaws which have developed over such long time periods. Age alone may have made the steel become "brittle" and unable to withstand ignition pressure safely.

Therefore, even though the exterior of a gun may look normal, there could be serious problems within the barrel and action which might cause a failure when even a "normal" powder charge is fired.

As a basic guideline.........when loading "full case" charges of the correct grade of BP behind a bullet of normal weight for that caliber, you will not exceed a pressure of around 22,000 to 26000 psi (or CUP) and modern made replica guns can handle such pressures safely. Use of a heavier than normal bullet or a black powder grain size which is too small in size, will cause higher than expected ignition pressures.

Original BP guns with internal flaws or replica guns which may have been repeatedly fired with excessive pressures in the past, may fail even with a so called "normal" load.

Original antique firearms have the best steel available at that time but today we understand more clearly that the old time steel contains various impurities and inclusions which after more than 100 years, can cause internal weakness and flaws which could cause the gun to be unable to safely handle it's normal chamber pressure. To avoid damage to the old gun as well as preventing injuries to the shooter or bystanders, it is suggested that original antique guns be fired only with reduced or mild charges……. after having been inspected by a qualified gunsmith.

The situation is quite different when smokeless powders or a "duplex load" having both smokeless and BP is being used.

Really dangerous and destructive pressures are easily produced which can result in damage to the gun as well as injury to both shooter and bystanders.

Because of the dangers mentioned above, and the fact that no one outside of a testing laboratory or proof house has the proper equipment to measure the pressure and strain produced by any ammunition, the Pedersoli company states that their cartridge rifles are to be fired only with "commercially produced" smokeless powder ammunition or, with black powder ammunition which meets the pressure limits set forth by the European C.I.P or American SAAMI organizations for each caliber or cartridge name.

Pedersoli & Co. like all Italian firearms manufacturers, is required by law, to have every firearm proof tested at the Italian National Proof House in Gardone Italy.

Many other European gun makers also send their complete gun or barreled actions to this same proof house when there is no similar proof house in their home country. Buyers look for proof marks as an assurance of safety and quality so manufacturers pay the extra price to have guns proofed by a recognized govt. controlled proof house.

Below is a copy of the standard letter Pedersoli provides to customers who ask about the proof test pressures for their Black Powder Ctg. Rifles.

It should be noted that in the USA, Federal or State Law does not require the proof testing of civilian firearms and there is no national proof house in the USA for such testing.

Only military contract firearms receive high pressure proof testing under strictly controlled conditions. All other firearms may or may not be proof tested by the manufacturer in some manner and if proof testing is performed, there is no government supervision or control so the customer must rely upon the manufacturers’ reputation in regards to the firearm strength. Fortunately, even though commercial firearms made in the USA do not have proof testing marks they are found to be strong enough for commercial ammunition made according to recognized SAAMI pressure ratings and the customer relies upon the reputation of both the gun and ammo manufacturer.

PEDERSOLI PROOF TESTING STATEMENT

All Pedersoli rifles are proof tested at the (Italian government) National Firing Proof House with smokeless powder cartridges with a pressure exceeding that of the ‘commercial’ factory made ammunition by 30 %.

For the .45-70 caliber we normally recommend the use of commercially made ammunition because of it being easily available on the world market. We show here some warnings about C.I.P. rules:

C.I.P WARNING

Our guns are proof tested according to the rules imposed by C.I.P. (International Proof Commission). Proof test pressure is 30% stronger than the maximum pressure of a commercial cartridge (Pmax.) Pmax pressures are measured in BAR units.

The below mentioned data are compared to the Crusher (CUP) and PSI method.

The equivalent maximum pressure value of the commercial cartridges measured according to the English/American P.S.I. and C.U.P. system is obtained by multiplying the BAR value x 14.5037.

The list below represents the maximum pressure to be developed by a commercial cartridge to be used with our guns, in the various calibers shown .In no case should the cartridges exceed such pressure values.



Smokeless Powder Cartridges

Calibers


BAR


CUP – PSI

30-30 Win.


2800


40611

30-40 Krag


2850


41335

38-55 Win.


2150


31182

357 Mag.


3200


46411

45 Colt


1100


15945

45-70 Govt.


2000


29007(*)

8x57 JRS


2900


42060

9,3x74R


3000


43511



Black Powder Cartridges

Caliber


BAR


CUP – PSI

38-55 B.P.


2000


29007

40-65 B.P.


1723


25000

45-70 B.P.


1723


25000

45-90 B.P.


1723


25000

45-100,110 B.P.


1723


25000

45-120 B.P.


1723


25000

45-70 Light B.P.


1241


18000 (**)

50-70, 50-90 Light B.P.


1241


18000 (**)

50-70, 50-90 B.P.


1723


25000 (*)





These calibers with B.P. indicate the use of commercial cartridges cases reloaded with BLACK POWDER only.

(*) This pressure is allowable for modern made Pedersoli rifles in 38-55, 40-65, 45-70, -90, -100, -110, -120, 50-70, and 50-90. It may not be safe with other brands of replica arms and those mfrs. must be consulted for their data.

(**) This pressure is generally considered to be near the safe limit for original antique Trapdoor model rifles which have been examined by a qualified gunsmith and found to be in good condition. Modern made Pedersoli Trapdoor 45-70 rifles are safe to the higher 29007 PSI/CUP pressure. Other brands of modern made Trapdoor rifles may not be safe at this high pressure and the mfr. must be consulted for their data.

The modern replica Sharps, Rolling Block and Trapdoor models we produce are stronger than their original versions due in part to improved steels as well as minor changes made to strengthen original design weakness and add some discrete safety features.

Although it is unpleasant to shoot maximum pressure loadings, we do permit the use of ammunition which does not exceed 29007 psi or CUP in these BP Ctg Rifles, regardless of their caliber. This allowable maximum pressure may be obtained using either black powder or smokeless powder loadings.

When using smokeless powder it is the responsibility of the reloader to use only the correct type of powder as well as the correct weight of powder in conjunction with the type and weight of bullet being reloaded.

Use ONLY the printed reloading charges listed by the powder manufacturer and which show the chamber pressure for each such reloading combination.

We recommend the Accurate Arms reloading book #2 (phone 800 416 3006 ) as meeting all our requirements for bullet types, pressure readings and powder charge selections.

Other powder and bullet manufacturers books are equally recommended if they list all the required data.

The Pedersoli company assumes no responsibility for injury or damage caused by firing ammunition loaded wrongly or to excessive pressures.

We are aware that there is smokeless powder 45-70 cal. commercial ammunition being sold which advertises pressures of 40,000 psi and we advise against use of this type ammunition. The large capacity thinwall brass cases are not designed to handle such excessive pressures and will have a very short reloadable life and may burst when fired at such high psi. For "ALL" large case black powder calibers, the best accuracy is obtained by the use of carefully developed loads using blackpowder and cast lead bullets in a bullet length suitable for the barrel twist of your rifle.

For Davide Pedersoli & Co.
Dick Trenk
Competition Events Coordinator

rev 9-04

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Guys,

My intent was to warn against the fellows saying that these guns could be loaded to 458 mag or 460 weatherby pressures. That being said, That is still My intent to warm against such advice.

It would appear I get jumped on for that, while the individuals that post that kind of data dont get even a word? This board apears to condone unsafe reloading practices? and does not censure individuals that post such dangerous advice.

My figures were off I must of Mis-remembered Mr Trenk's figures I do recall the 29,007 limit for smokeless loadings however:


Pedersoili does test ie Proof at 30% over that loading. So it would appear that they do proof at 37,709 cup psi or thats the figure I came up with. Making my 42,000 cup psi figure a bit too high.

Rest assured I will warn as many BP shooters as I can, to be aware this board does condone unsafe loading practices by not censuring people that post the use of compress loads of 4831 and say that one can load these rifles to 458 win mag loadings or 460 weatherby.

Rest assured also, that I will no longer post here.

Kenny Wasserburger

[montana_charlie]

Rest assured also, that I will no longer post here.
Aw...don't go away mad, KW.

Your annual visit to show off your new rifle, pile of medals, or latest buffalo are the 'icing on the cake' of another great year on the Cast Boolits forum.

If you could just refrain from casting aspersions on equipment that doesn't measure up to your patrician standards, folks who can only afford the 'low priced spread' wouldn't adopt that pack mentality where one grabs the hamstring (and takes his beating) while the rest circle in for a grip.

If you want to do us a favor and voice your doubt about certain loads you see posted...speak right up about those that bother you.
But, a general (and inaccurate) condemnation like, "Pedersoil's are not rated at Ruger #1 loads or any smokless loads, in their 45-70." will cause some teeth to be bared...even by those who use nothing but BP.

You have some old friends here, and that is fine. They may have encouraged you to join up and hang out...and that's perfectly acceptable, too.
But when you think about throwing your weight around, remember that you aren't as heavy (here) as on your home turf.

Your experience makes you a person who could be a asset to members here when it comes to the 'been there, done that' kind of information you might share...if you ever visited while in a sharing mood.
But you need to lighten up on the 'been there, done that...and did it so prefectly...and so many times...and way better than anybody...and can do it again whenever I want'.

Your reputation (and your choice of rifles) is known. You don't need to hammer it home every time you show up.

CM

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Charlie,

One last time, the guy asked for loads in his Pedersoli, when the clowns that refered to full cases of 4831 compressed and loading to 458 win mag pressures is when I stepped in to say his Pedersoli was not rated for those kinds of pressures, if the guy had a shiloh I would of said you SHILOH is not rated or heat treated for those kind of pressures,:roll:

You choose to see it as me attacking Pedersoli or Pedersoli owners by your own addmission and also by addmission called up your pack mentality. To jump on me.

Thankfully I see those Idiot Postings are now removed, So I did do some good with my post, and prevent some newbie with his Sharps no mater the make, trying to fill the case full of 4831 and killing him self or some inocent bystander.

You missed my point, perhaps by my own bad expression or writting.

I was not throwing my weight around but pointing out a very UNSAFE BIT of Advice.

Your hood jumped as you directed them too. Good one for you. You waited while the pack chewed me up abit then came in for your word to dualy chastise me.

I had hoped to share my findings on this forum due to the fact some folks dont frequent the Shiloh Boards, on my latest playing with PP bullets. I plan on competing with them this next up coming year in long range events and nationals. I have learned alot and they shoot very well good enough for me to compete with thats saying something for me to admit to using them. I do things a bit different then the PP guru's do and have had great results which I wanted to share with fellow forum members.

However the pack has this old bear at bay. I wont waste the bandwidth nor my limited time.


I almost always each year at Raton spend one evening with Mr Dick Trenk for Dinner. And every year that I have attended the SHOT show I stop and vist at the Pedersoli booth. They are quite nice and the entire Italy gun group have a large booth. I know Dick well and consider him a friend he gave me a lot of good advice when I was going though my divorce a few short years ago.

Enough of my rambling,

Kenny Wasserburger

[montana_charlie]

Enough of my rambling,
Well, you're welcome to ramble back anytime you get the feeling. When not stirred up, we are a pretty friendly bunch...
CM

[13Echo]

MC, actually, I rather like, even prefer to read Kenny's posts. When he speaks about BPCR he knows of what he speaks. I'm not always so certain of others that post.

Jerry Liles

[longhorn]

I thought KW was pretty clear in his original reply.....I will comment that I own or have owned Italian and American trapdoors, rolling blocks, and Sharps, and I wouldn't fire those loads in any of 'em. No knock on the Italians, I just enjoy my original issue fingers, eyes, and some of my hearing. I believe in blackpowder in blackpowder designs.

[Ljutic SS]

You guys are playing with fire in my opinion, your pedersoli's are not heat treated to withstand those kind of presures and loads. Contact Dick Trenk the 45-120 or 45-70 are not ever close to waranty for those kinds of loadings. Pedersoli does not reconmend smokeless loads at all in their Sharps rifles.

Kenny Wasserburger

Kenny Wasserburger, I don't know where you got your info on Pedersoli Sharps rifles. Your statement saying they don't advise using smokeless powder is not true. Page #8 Pedersoli manual (use only commercially manufactured ammunition) Page #59 (use only factory loaded 45/70 ammunition should not excede 25,000 cup.) The Pedersoli Sharps Reciever are forged, All commercially loaded 45/70 are loaded to saami spec. so that they can be shot in trap doors in good condiction which are much weaker in strength then the Sharps.

George

[crossfireoops]

"All commercially loaded 45/70 are loaded to saami spec. so that they can be shot in trap doors in good condiction which are much weaker in strength then the Sharps."

Which means absolutely nothing, in the context of this thread....before data suggested were deleted...............hardly trapdoor loads, and nothing SAAMI related.

I reckon that's what KW was getting at, .....Ljuttic SS.

I got no dog in this fight, ........I can see all the stupidity with over P handloads right over in Tombstone Az., ....and don't really care to go further afield.

GTC

[Ljutic SS]

Crosfireooops, No you got it wrong too. "I reckon thats what KW was getting at." KW claimed that Pedersoli's are for shooting blackpowder only. Please show me where Pedersoli states blackpowder only. Don't you think they would stamp their barrels "blackpowder only"?

George

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Ljutic SS,

Sorry pard you go it wrong wrong wrong, The guy in the orginal question asked about smokless handload information, and Pedersoli won't don't warranty on smokless reloads. I got that RIGHT.

Never once did I mention Smokless factory ammo. My orginal statments were about SMOKELESS RELOADS at a dangerous level, Pedersoli does not reconmend smokeless reloads.

Your abilty to understand the Printed word sucks Mr.:( Read what you posted Commerically made ammo or factory made ammo, only (not hand loads)!!! What part about RELOAD's or Handloads using Smokless powder dont you get???

The whole thread never was about Factory ammo in a sharps it was about bad advice given on Smokless reloads. THEY ARE RATED FOR THAT, I FIGURED THAT WAS A GIVEN.

NEVER ONCE WAS FACTORY AMMO MENTIONED GET IT? NOW?


Any more missing village idiots want to debate this?








Crossfire had it right AS TO WHAT I WAS REFERING TOO.

KW

As I have stated before I hate to argue with less then stand up guys, that hide behind a monker and wont give their real names. And if you would like to discuss the issue in depth here is my cell # 307-689-4497 give me a ring perhaps I can enlighten you.

[WBH]

Well now I am a "less than stand up guy". It just keeps getting better and better.

"Rest assured I will warn as many BP shooters as I can, to be aware this board does condone unsafe loading practices by not censuring people that post the use of compress loads of 4831 and say that one can load these rifles to 458 win mag loadings or 460 weatherby.

Rest assured also, that I will no longer post here."

Kenny Wasserburger[/QUOTE]


I was happy when you called us a "dangerous" bunch and would spread the word AND said you were leaving us.

Now you're back............shucks.

[Ljutic SS]

Mr. KW, maybe your Shiloh is stamped blackpowder only but Pedersoli's are not. Please show me proof where Pedersoli will void warranty if you use smokeless thats all I ask. You don't have to try to insult people then thay don't see eye to eye with you. We are not talking about using 35,000 CUP loads like on the past posts, we are talking about store bought 45/70 ammo. All that 45/70 ammo that has been sold in the 40's 50's and 60's was not for Shiloh, pedersoli, or C.Sharps guns more like Trap doors, and Rollingblocks.

George

[waksupi]

Saying that factory loads are necessarily safer than handloads is silly.

And my name is Ric Carter.

[crossfireoops]

Mr. KW, maybe your Shiloh is stamped blackpowder only but Pedersoli's are not. Please show me proof where Pedersoli will void warranty if you use smokeless thats all I ask. You don't have to try to insult people then thay don't see eye to eye with you. We are not talking about using 35,000 CUP loads like on the past posts, we are talking about store bought 45/70 ammo. All that 45/70 ammo that has been sold in the 40's 50's and 60's was not for Shiloh, pedersoli, or C.Sharps guns more like Trap doors, and Rollingblocks.

George

This threads gone GOOFY:roll:, and my name's Greg Cameron.

Dunno what your attitude springs from, Ljutic,.....I kinda' percieve that the MAIN FOCUS OF THIS THREAD WAS ABOUT SAFETY, ....at least to start out with.

Quick pop quiz,....what's the threaded shank legnth, thread pitch and major dia. of a Pedersoli '74 Sharps replica barrel?

Just curious as to what you know, if anything.:-D

GTC

[Ljutic SS]

Crossfireoops, Shank length are 3/4" major dia. I seen run from 1.128 to 1.131 the pitch is 10 TPI square thread with only about 7/16 of the 3/4" shank as thread. Anything else you want to know? Question for you if you anything at all. Hall "B" reciever, barrel tenon length and dia. how many threads per inch, and how much torque when switching barrels? P.S. I am still waiting for my answer to why Pedersoli does not stamp their barrels "blackpowder only" like some of the other makers?

[crossfireoops]

Not familiar with Hall "B"..

You really need to go back and re-read this thread, .....

It was about safety, IIRC, ....and is obviously degenerating into something else.

It's Christmas, ......God bless you one and all,

Shoot well, shoot often, .....

Shoot safe.

GTC

[pa_guns]

Hi

Boy, this got exciting didn't it.

Since all the posts that caused the "problems" are now gone it's a bit tough to follow other than the name calling.

Bob

[felix]

I know some about Allen Hall. If he made it, you cannot find anything better (for the money). He is a BR man from way back and specifically makes BR actions that are tough and true as (fill in the blank). 65K pressures are just an idle stance for his stuff. ... felix

[crossfireoops]

65 K pressures would seem to be a little wild for BPCR venues, .....No?

GTC

[pa_guns]

65 K pressures would seem to be a little wild for BPCR venues, .....No?

GTC

Hi

Might be a bit tough to hit, 600 grains of powder and a 96" barrel maybe ...

Bob

[crossfireoops]

It's the breeching of the replicas, and originals that always concerns me,......

There's a darned good reason that Niedner came up with his "Safety breeching" for the High-walls.

When you start pushing a percussion design that hard ( regardless of the materials it's made of) ....you just have to look at the overall aspect of the deal.

Cartridge cases FAIL, .....

Primer cups FAIL.....

.....all you're left with is the basic integrity, and gas handling capabilities of the action.

Responsible handloading data, ......dissemination thereof is OUR job.

We survived all sortsa' adventures, and didn't kill ourselves with "Hand selected" $22.00 trapdoors.

Some of us writing here will understand what I'm getting at, ....some won't.

GTC

[pa_guns]

Hi

If you go back and look at the early records - a lot of people did *not* survive the transition to smokeless powder using those Trapdoor Springfields.

Bob

[Jjed]

Didn’t mean to cause this much trouble. I appreciate all the input. I never intended to shoot my pedersoli at anywhere near max pressure, just looking for a good smokeless load to hunt/target shoot with.
Thanks
Jim

[WBH]

Jjed.............as I posted before

45-70 Govt.
28gr 5744
405gr boolit (actually drops 419 in 30:1)
MOA or less at 200

It is at the top end of the Original Trapdoor pressure limit.

[dubber123]

For what it's worth, smokeless is all I will shoot in my Italiano Sharpie. A friend who is a GOOD shot, has 3 or 4 Shilohs, and several C. Sharps, and they sure are beautiful guns. When I showed him the smokeless groups I was getting, he said I was cheating. Got even more PO'd when I told him about using straight WW's no funky alloys, never trimming cases, no wads, nothing. I intend to keep right on "cheating". It is fun to watch the BP guys boom away though!

[Bullshop]

Just got this from a customer. Its one of several he sent all about the same.
The mold is from MT Molds. It was from a two cal set he made me one of which is pictured on the Mt Mold home page. These were 45/520 Keith and 50/620 Keith for those who like Keith boolits. The rifle is an 1874 C Sharps.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/bullshop/Binder1.jpg
BIC/BS

[Bullshop]

Rats! I dont know why that came out up side down. Anyways perty good shootin. BTW they was straight up acww and lubed with speed green.
BIC/BS

[crossfireoops]

Yup, A "Montana Armory " C. Sharps, MACHINED outta' 8620 CAST ROLLED PLATE, and a "'No sharp corners action".....everything blended and radiused to kill potential stress raisers.

Comparing some of the lower grade "Dark Valley" Spaghetti stuff to this quality is a REAL stretch.....

Ya'll are writing this stuff, ....I'm just reading and commenting.

GTC

[EDG]

Yup, A "Montana Armory " C. Sharps, MACHINED outta' 8620 CAST ROLLED PLATE, and a "'No sharp corners action".....everything blended and radiused to kill potential stress raisers.

Comparing some of the lower grade "Dark Valley" Spaghetti stuff to this quality is a REAL stretch.....

Ya'll are writing this stuff, ....I'm just reading and commenting.

GTC

Where did you come up with the term cast rolled plate?

[windwalker]

You guys are playing with fire in my opinion, your pedersoli's are not heat treated to withstand those kind of presures and loads. Contact Dick Trenk the 45-120 or 45-70 are not ever close to waranty for those kinds of loadings. Pedersoli does not reconmend smokeless loads at all in their Sharps rifles.

Kenny Wasserburger

Kenny this is the info put out by pedersoli for there cartridge guns
C.I.P WARNING

Our guns are proof tested according to the rules imposed by C.I.P. (International Proof Commission). Proof test pressure is 30% stronger than the maximum pressure of a commercial cartridge (Pmax.) Pmax pressures are measured in BAR units.

The below mentioned data are compared to the Crusher (CUP) and PSI method.

The equivalent maximum pressure value of the commercial cartridges measured according to the English/American P.S.I. and C.U.P. system is obtained by multiplying the BAR value x 14.5037.

The list below represents the maximum pressure to be developed by a commercial cartridge to be used with our guns, in the various calibers shown .In no case should the cartridges exceed such pressure values.

Smokeless Powder Cartridges

Calibers
BAR
CUP – PSI

30-30 Win.
2800 BAR
40611 CUP – PSI

30-40 Krag
2850 BAR
41335 CUP – PSI

38-55 Win.
2150 BAR
31182 CUP – PSI

357 Mag.
3200 BAR
46411 CUP – PSI

45 Colt
1100 BAR
15945 CUP – PSI

45-70 Govt.
2000 BAR
29007(*) CUP – PSI

8x57 JRS
2900 BAR
42060 CUP – PSI

9,3x74R
3000 BAR
43511 CUP – PSI
(*) This pressure is allowable for modern made Pedersoli rifles in 38-55, 40-65, 45-70, -90, -100, -110, -120, 50-70, and 50-90. It may not be safe with other brands of replica arms and those mfrs. must be consulted for their data.

The modern replica Sharps, Rolling Block and Trapdoor models we produce are stronger than their original versions due in part to improved steels as well as minor changes made to strengthen original design weakness and add some discrete safety features.
Although it is unpleasant to shoot maximum pressure loadings, we do permit the use of ammunition which does not exceed 29007 psi or CUP in these BP Ctg Rifles, regardless of their caliber. This allowable maximum pressure may be obtained using either black powder or smokeless powder loadings.
the loads listed by the members do not exceed this pressure.
bernie:)

[Bluehawk]

WOW I only wanted to get on and say that in my Perdersoli RB target gun Smokeless loads of 23 to 25 Grains of AA XMP 5744 with several makes and self cast 400 to 420 grain bollits work very well with low pressures .
Hope im not interupting the high pressure talks too much

[Jjed]

Good info i will have to try that powder too.
Thanks
Jim

[jjamna]

And here I was worried about shooting topend Trapdoor loads in a Marlin. Look into Trail boss powder. Pressures are low on most calibers.
Just a ? what kind of pressure can the H&R Buffalo handle?
Jeff McBride

[pa_guns]

And here I was worried about shooting topend Trapdoor loads in a Marlin. Look into Trail boss powder. Pressures are low on most calibers.
Just a ? what kind of pressure can the H&R Buffalo handle?
Jeff McBride

Hi

By far the *best* thing to do in this day of email is to ask the manufacturer.

The way it *should* work is that anything new that is not up to modern specifications should be marked as such. Unfortunately there are enough exceptions to make that a dangerous assumption.

Bob

[Jjed]

maybe it's just me. but i think any gun maker would make sure there firearms can shoot any current ammo on the market cause not everybody reloads.
Jim

[pa_guns]

maybe it's just me. but i think any gun maker would make sure there firearms can shoot any current ammo on the market cause not everybody reloads.
Jim

Hi

That's indeed the way it *should* be. From a good manufacturer, that's the way it is. With all the "stuff" out there, it is worth checking.

Bob

[StrawHat]

maybe it's just me. but i think any gun maker would make sure there firearms can shoot any current ammo on the market cause not everybody reloads.
Jim

With some cartridges that would not be an easy thing to do.

The 45-70 is a good example, Remington ammo is safe in any firearm so chambered.

Garret cartridges are not, they will destroy many of the rifles so chambered, for example my trapdoors and rolling blocks will never see a Garret cartridge.

Seems to me a shooter should know what he needs and stick with those loads.

[Shooter6br]

Anyone have favorite loads for it. I read the throat is .460. Rnachdog makes two nice molds a 350 g and a 450 g .460s Also have a Pedersoli tang site. I need to get an adjustable eye disc any sugguestions?

[JSnover]

I need to get an adjustable eye disc any sugguestions?

Try buffaloarms.com or dixiegun.com
Brownell's may also have them.

[wills]

Just a ? what kind of pressure can the H&R Buffalo handle?
Jeff McBride

It is a version of the handirifle, which is also chambered in calibers like the 30-06.

[MT Chambers]

I arrived late on this thread(story of my life) but I have some experience with BP and Smokeless loading for the 45/70. I use some very heavy loads in my 45/70 Marlin that have pressure equal to the 450 Marlin in the same gun(approx.43,000), these are bear and moose loads for up here in Canada. I also load for BPCR guns and choose to use BP in my C. Sharps, Ubertis, Pedersolis,etc. I would not hesitate to use any smokeless loads listed under"Trapdoor" loads in the manuals, if I was going to go smokeless, but no heavier. I have also seen loads that are billed as "BP duplication loads" that use full cases of very slow burning smokeless powders, the pressure levels were very low, close to BP pressure levels. To sum it up, I don't understand the fuss, use whatever gives you the best accuracy, keep the pressure levels down in all 1874 or RB replicas to "TRAPDOOR" levels and be happy!!!

[montana_charlie]

Also have a Pedersoli tang site. I need to get an adjustable eye disc any sugguestions?
Dick Trenk may have one or two USA 463 Hadley's left.
Email him at dicktrenk(at)aol(dot)com.

But you must have one of the Pedersoli sights from their 'better' line, or else the USA 463 won't fit it. Look at http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/accessoriDettaglio.aspx?CategoriaId=1315&lang=en to see which one you have.
The USA 463 is also on the page, and the caption states which sights it fits.
CM