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KYShooter73
01-06-2014, 04:15 AM
I'm having some troubles here folks. I've loaded about 300lb of PC boolits in the last year, 95% being for handgun. 45acp and 9mm mostly. I won't say it has been trouble free, but I have never had leading or PC buildup. Just run a brush down the bore every few hundred rounds, maybe a few drops of hoppes, and a couple patches. I use ES spray harbor freight black exclusively.

Now the problem....300 Blackout. CMMG 1/7 Carbine length 16 in barrel. Never had a j-word fired through it. All boolits were COWW + 2% tin Lee 312-155. I've fired approximately 450 rounds, doing various tests mostly using aluminum gas checks. I've varied oal, extremely light loads, overpowered loads, and worked up compressed loads with powder slower than recommended, used boolits sized .309 and .311. Never cleaned the barrel more than a dry patch or two. I know that twist rate is breaking the rules on RPM's, but that isn't my question.

The first 4 inches of my barrel is now a smooth bore. I've dealt with heavy leading before, a little time and elbow grease, and all is well. Not this time. I've worked on it a while every evening for two weeks. I can barely see any improvement. I can't find any Chore Boy, but have tried the following:

1. Worn out 3 bronze brushes.
2. Aluminum window screen on a jag.
3. 0000 steel wool.
4. 4 steel wool.
5. Aluminum can cut up to resemble chore boy strands.
6. Stainless Tornado brush.
7. 50/50 vinegar and peroxide.
8. Hoppes #9.
9. Shooters Choice MC #7.
10. Paint thinner.
11. Acetone.
12. Drove an annealed brass case through the bore.
13. Hundreds of tight wet and dry patches.

Every time I run an abrasive through the bore, the following patch comes out dirty. Sometimes it looks like lead, others it looks too dark to be lead. I don't know if it is lead or PC buildup, or a combination of both. I know these methods may seem extreme, but I'm at a loss and have about 12 hours of cleaning in this barrel. I have not yet tried heat because I didn't want to remove the barrel from the upper. Any ideas or suggestions? Thanks.

freebullet
01-06-2014, 05:26 AM
I'm no expert but earlier this summer I inadvertently turned my 357 in to a smoothbore. I used a bore snake with strands of chore boy scrubbers around it. I sprayed break free powder blast on the snake 6-7 passes to clean. I have also used butchs bore solvent on the snake with the same effort to get the lead out.

Maximumbob54
01-06-2014, 08:41 AM
If you can't find them you can order them pretty cheap:

http://www.amazon.com/Chore-Boy%C2%AE-Copper-Scrubbers-Pack/dp/B000RO5JC8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389011986&sr=8-1&keywords=copper+chore+boy

Either that or it's time to order a Lewis Lead Remover.

prickett
01-06-2014, 11:06 AM
The absolute best lead remover is an Outers Foul Out unit. Best $100 a caster will ever spend.

KYShooter73
01-06-2014, 03:29 PM
The absolute best lead remover is an Outers Foul Out unit. Best $100 a caster will ever spend.

Thanks Prickett. Kinda pricy, but when looking I found a way to build one. I should be able to repurpose some of the stuff I made when trying my hand at copper plating. Looks just like electrolysis with the polarity reversed.

Idz
01-06-2014, 04:27 PM
I think the Outer's foul-out has been discontinued. You can't even get the cleaning solutions anymore. But yes it works great!

prickett
01-06-2014, 08:29 PM
I think the Outer's foul-out has been discontinued. You can't even get the cleaning solutions anymore. But yes it works great!

Doh! Looks like I better stock up on the lead-out fluid - if I can find any. Saved me numerous time as I was learning casting, then coating.

KYShooter73
01-06-2014, 10:10 PM
I've made one of these....so far no dice. Steel rod as cathode, barrel as anode, with the vinegar/ammonia solution in the sealed barrel. Gonna give it a few hours, it is bubbling like crazy.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/copperout/

prickett
01-06-2014, 10:51 PM
Note the last word in the URL: copperout

In the Outer Foul Out, there is a separate solution for copper removal and lead removal.

KYShooter73
01-07-2014, 01:33 AM
Ya, the ammonia/vinegar is a bust, just foamed like heck. After some more reading, gonna try it with vinegar/peroxide or sodium acetate solution. Then I'll shoot some cream of wheat loads. If that don't work......out comes the torch.

retread
01-07-2014, 01:48 AM
Recipe for foul-out can be found in the homemade cleaners. I believe it is in the stickies. If not contact me and I can send you a copy.

Jay

retread
01-07-2014, 01:54 AM
Had a copy on in my documents. Here it is:

Just for those of you with curious minds, the Outers CopOut Plus solution contain approximately 0.6 percent cupric acetate and 2.5 percent ammonium acetate (3.62 grams/ liter of copper acetate and 38.5 grams/liter of ammonium acetate) in distilled/deionized water. The LeadOut Plus contains approximately 2 percent lead acetate and 5 percent ammonium acetate (6.50 grams/liter of lead acetate and 38.5 grams/liter of ammonium acetate ) in distilled/deionized water. A good basic solution for either would be
Copper Solution
562.3 grains Ammonium Acetate
51.3 grains Copper Acetate or 58.3 grains Cupric Acetate Monohydrate
Add distilled (or high megohm deionized) water to make 1 Qt.
Lead Solution
562.3 grains Ammonium Acetate
95.0 grains Lead Acetate or 110.8 grains of Lead Acetate Trihydrate
Add distilled (or high megohm deionized) water to make 1 Qt.
Note that since the Outers FoulOut unit limits the voltage and current in the electrolysis process and runs at about .3 volts (3/10 volt)-- at typically a max of about 20 milliamps.
Possible sources for these chemicals in small quantities are:
Post Apple Scientific, Inc. http://www.postapplescientific.com
Sigma-Aldrich (800-325-3010) http://www.sigmaaldrich.com
This company lists 100 grams of Copper (II) Acetate for about $19 and 500 grams of Ammonium Acetate for about $17. If you assume $1.00 per gallon for distilled water, you can make the solution for copper removal for $1.60 per quart. This does not include shipping costs on the chemicals.
The Science Company http://www.sciencecompany.com

Ausglock
01-07-2014, 08:07 AM
This is the procedure from a well respected Industrial Chemist.
1.
Under no circumstances should any one use Copper Salts of any kind to clean barrels.
Solution of Copper salts, (Sulfate, Acetate, Nitrate, Chloride) and others, in water immediately on contact with steel, start severe corrosion of metal surfaces that come in contact with the copper solutions.
The sludge that is being removed is a combination of Iron/steel, and Copper precipitated by electrolytic displacement of Copper with the metal the solution comes into contact with.
2.
Ammonia cleaners to remove Copper deposits also eat away the Barrel as the Ammonia solubilises the Copper, then the solubilised Coppper immediately starts to corrode away the steel (barrel surfaces)
3.
Powder coatings, and other coatings, that are bonded to inside barrel, are easy to remove.
User needs to obtain N-Methyl Pyrrolidone liquid. (NMP)
Simply plug one end of barrel, fill a dry barrel with this material.
Warm with hair drier for quicker job.
If time is not important, simply leave over night.
Next day, the paint sludge residue can be easily removed by brush.
Then, simply rinse bore out with water, and Metho to dry water, and then use light anti-corrosion spray to protect cleaned metal bore.
Pull through with rag, examine bore to ensure all is clean.
NOTE.
Do not spill the NMP onto synthetic surfaces as it will damage those surfaces.

TheDoctor
01-07-2014, 09:03 AM
One thing to be careful of if you decide to build your own foul out system. There IS a reason the voltage and amperage is as low as it is. You go much higher, and you run a serious risk of damaging your barrel. Find a used foul out system, or make sure you have a functioning controller in the one you build. Just a rod with some batteries is a very bad thing...

popper
01-07-2014, 11:11 AM
Back to Ed's Red for cleaning. Kyshooter - sounds like the Lee load is too fast for the twist. You should be WD those pills. Did you try some hard alloy subsonic CBs with ALOX? Somebody near you should carry the chore boy else order some. It's still a lot of work but does work and won't do ay damage.

gefiltephish
01-07-2014, 11:12 AM
Trevor, you mean this stuff (http://www.amazon.com/Gallon-N-methyl-2-pyrrolidinone-N-Methyl-Pyrrolidone-Stripper/dp/B00H7JTQXO/ref=sr_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1389107319&sr=1-2&keywords=N-Methyl+Pyrrolidone)? I wonder if any paint stripper would do? I looked at the MSDS sheets of several at home depot and a few contain 30-60% NMP, but none are 100%.

freebullet
01-07-2014, 11:51 AM
Brass faucet screen works good too. Poke a hole in the middle so you can screw it on behind your bronze bore brush and go at it.

Tech2
01-07-2014, 12:03 PM
If you don't have a tube of Autosol in your arsenal buy a tube.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AUTOSOL-Car-Truck-Bike-Chrome-Aluminium-All-Metal-Polish-Paste-Tube-Cleaner-75ml-/121204197397?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c38554815
When you think that you have done a good job of cleaning out a bore run a patch with a little Autosol on it. Generally it comes out completely black after a few strokes. It will polish almost anything to a luster you haven't seen since it was new. It will cut lead at a slow steady rate. I tend to alternate between something like a bore brush wrapped in copper wool soaked in your favorite fluid and an Autosol patch to see what progress you have made.
92904
My project Mosin finished with Autosol over a year ago.

KYShooter73
01-07-2014, 03:55 PM
Back to Ed's Red for cleaning. Kyshooter - sounds like the Lee load is too fast for the twist. You should be WD those pills. Did you try some hard alloy subsonic CBs with ALOX? Somebody near you should carry the chore boy else order some. It's still a lot of work but does work and won't do ay damage.

I have not water dropped after coating, nor have I shot subsonic. I may heat some back up to 400 and water drop them if I ever get this barrel clean. I'm working on the Ed's red. Just lack the kerosine and a container, and some lanolin is on its way from Randyrat. To be honest, I see a new barrel with a longer twist rate somewhere in my future.

Ausglock
01-07-2014, 08:28 PM
Trevor, you mean this stuff (http://www.amazon.com/Gallon-N-methyl-2-pyrrolidinone-N-Methyl-Pyrrolidone-Stripper/dp/B00H7JTQXO/ref=sr_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1389107319&sr=1-2&keywords=N-Methyl+Pyrrolidone)? I wonder if any paint stripper would do? I looked at the MSDS sheets of several at home depot and a few contain 30-60% NMP, but none are 100%.

Yep. that's it.

Sliver Shooter
01-08-2014, 09:05 AM
So back tothe original post and the problem. If I understand correctly, some of you are getting build up from shooting PCed boolits? What is the main cause for his and how is it corrected after you go thru the work of cleaning with the various ideas here? I have yet to PC ant boolits but was under the impreasion that it eliminated leading and left the bores cleaner than before. Is it the twist on some guns or the volocity?

popper
01-08-2014, 12:09 PM
Lanolin? Just use the kerosene & ATF. Lanolin is wool oil, hygroscopic & stays in the bbl.
WD, try hornady checks & possibly add some Cu. How fast are you running those and what powder? I get 2400+ from a lower SB alloy, WD 165 using 335 or 4895 in a 1:10 carbine. You definitely are striping.

Tech2
01-08-2014, 12:23 PM
Silver Shooter
From what I understand
Yes he has a high twist rate barrel and he is PCing in flat black.
The flat black has either eroded the rifling away for several inches of his bore or the fast twist rate is literally ripping lead and PC off the Boolit as it tries to spin up. The jury is still out on flat black so I am staying away for now.
I did buy some black teflon loaded PC I'll see how that works when it gets here. My plan is to stand them up and PC them red then flip them over into nuts and do the base / lube groves in black teflon. This could be overkill for my purposes. but it is all fun.

KYShooter73
01-08-2014, 02:24 PM
Most loads are 1950fpsish. I would say popper is right on the stripping. I would say I got some leading from some oddball load I used, then it just built up from there. The Ed's Red recipe I've always seen is kerosine, mineral spirits, acetone, atf, and lanolin.

I've never read up on adding CU to your alloy, but I know you have a thread out there on how to do it. I should invest in a hardness tester before I go that far.

popper
01-08-2014, 07:13 PM
Kyshooter - I don't have a BHN tester either. COWW with 1% Cu may help. mostly using aluminum gas checks. - tried hornady copper checks? I don't use Alum. but have heard of them failing to clean the junk out.
I just use the kerosene & ATF, works fine.

KYShooter73
01-08-2014, 07:28 PM
Never used any copper checks, I just tested a few without checks. Still a newb casting for rifles. I'll read up on alloying with copper.

KYShooter73
01-11-2014, 07:18 AM
Multiple more hours scrubbing. Barrel is completely removed from the upper now, and probably ruined. 5 minutes of propane torch then coarse steel wool did little to nothing. Patches still come out black after harsh scrubbing. A sharpened coat hanger will not scratch this build up.

I sing the praises of powder coating as much as anyone (except Banger Jim maybe), but this is a setback. If I can find somewhere to order it at less than a gallon at a time, I'm going to get some PC stripper, and another barrel with a slower twist rate. From now on, I consider this a test barrel to try and figure out what I did wrong.

93174

popper
01-11-2014, 10:29 AM
Then it is not lead. I've melted a stuck 30 cal out of a Lee sizer - it does take a while with the MAPP torch but you can see the lead puddle. I wouldn't shoot anything through that barrel now. Another prob. with HF black? I shot some HiTek green too fast and had a dickens getting the crud out, hammering on a really tight patch ( a glob under the 30/30 bbl band). It eventually came out. Have you tried that latex paint cleaner for cured/dried paint? I tried some MEK on coated boolits, made the HF white a little soft but didn't remove it.

Tech2
01-11-2014, 02:22 PM
If it won't come out and you shoot flat black I have to ask have you slugged the barrel to see if you have any rifling left?
Just drop a round in and start tapping it through from the breach end. If it almost falls in for the first several inches then the HF flat black has sanded your barrel smooth and we have confirmation that flat black is a bad idea.
If it is really tight for the first several inches then almost falls through you have a buildup.

KYShooter73
01-13-2014, 06:00 AM
New barrel on the way, the mortgage can wait. Still just 1:8 at 14.5in. Have a buddy to pin/silver solder the 2.4in comp on. There are still grooves below my lands..barely starting to show through. I also requested a sample of some high dollar powder coat stripper. I'll report when I have info.

popper
01-13-2014, 10:52 AM
So I would change to HF red or white, dump the black. Also, try some copper checks.

freebullet
01-23-2014, 07:35 AM
Ever get the barrel cleaned up?

KYShooter73
01-23-2014, 10:20 AM
Yep, all cleaned up and the first 4 inches is basically a smooth bore. Shot out in under 500 rounds.

freebullet
02-11-2014, 09:36 AM
Im curious what your thinking caused it?

KYShooter73
02-11-2014, 10:11 AM
My best guess, and it's only a guess, is that I was over-cooking HF black ( I could rub some off with acetone), and it was coming off in powder form acting like an abrasive in my barrel. It could also have been an continued overpressure issue because there was a blown primer stuck in my gas key which prevented the bolt from properly unlocking and cycling.