original type Colt Percussion revolver bullets

[jaystuw]

I wish somebody would make a modern muti-cavity mold for this type of bullet. Its the kind we see in civil war era, colt 2 cavity molds, one cavity is a round ball. the other is the bullet I am speaking of. A short sharp pointed conical bullet with a single grease groove and a recessed base for starting in the cylinder.

Its obsolete, I'm sure the modern blunt conicals are better. However, since I'm shooting a reproduction of a colt revolver, I would kind of get a kick out of shooting reproductions of original colt bullets just to see how they work out. who knows, maybe they might shoot pretty well. Jay

[KCSO]

They wern't too popular even in the old days. They worked semi ok in the gain twist colts but were still not noted for accuracy and were still hard to load straight. Having tried them a few times i gave up on them as an accurate round. In addition I wasn;t a fan of the point on the bullet as a good bullet shape even for small game. I also thought they were harder to lube than a round ball as I wasn't a fan of the wad under the bullet. It sure wouldn't be hard to make a cherry for this bullet though.

[Good Cheer]

Penetration of clothing, not accuracy, was the idea with the original "conicals". Properly designed boolits work fine in appropriately designed percussion revolvers.

[Omnivore]

I believe you will find reproduction molds being offered by Pedersoli, and I've seen original molds for sale recently. Still; there is no one "authentic" period bullet, as even the same maker of consumable cartridges of the day would use different designs and sell them interchangeably. Maybe you refer only to the molds provided by the gun makers, but millions of aftermarket, consumable cartridges were sold pre-made and they used several different bullet styles and weights. They did tend to have a more pointed shape than we see today. Some had lube grooves and some didn't, and some were even a "boat tail" design.

Accuratemolds.com will make anything you want, for a bit under 100 bucks.

If your bullet ram has a ball profile tip to it, it's going to smash the pointy bullet into a round nose anyway, unless you have a pretty loose fitting bullet. I notice that my '61 Uberti Colt Navy's bullet ram has a pointy shape inside it, which can be a problem with round ball and round nose conicals, as it cuts a ring into them and sometimes even pulls one back out with it. So you may be looking at modifying your bullet ram on the gun in addition to finding the mold you want.

The options are certainly out there and accessible to anyone, whether you find an original mold, order one custom made, or get one from Pedersoli.

I point out that, after reading a book on consumable cartridges of the 1860s, there wasn't a single one mentioned, made for commercial sale, that used a round ball. Millions and millions of conicals in 31, 36 and 44 caliber went into consumable cartridges, but not a single ball that I know.

[Dryball]

Conicals are ok but roundballs are, by far more accurate in my Walker replica. You, also, must consider the dimensions of the "cut out" on your revolver. Many repros, mine included, do not have a recess big enough to load conicals. There are 3 fixes for this...load the cylinder outside of the gun, cut and hone the frame so you can seat the conicals with the cylinder still in the gun, or just shoot rb's. If you'd like pm me and I can send you some of the conicals casted from a Lee mold.

[Hellgate]

The pointy original bullets did not allow as much room in the chamber for more powder. The LEE conicals are a good balance to allow enough powder for maximum "thump". If you look at a photo of an original you will see much more room under the rammer to accommodate the longer conicals. The Italian repros do not remove enough metal to make room for them (even the LEE conical). My ASM Hartford 1860 does let me load the 200gr LEE conical with some juggling but not a Pietta. The Remingtons of all makes have plenty of room to load conicals so if you are serious about loading the pointy original shapes then get a Remington or learn how to hog out a ton of metal under the rammer of your Colt. The 44cal "Navies" are purely round ball guns.

[Good Cheer]

Design the bullet for the revolver whether it uses brass or not.

[jaystuw]

I have liked this "pointy" type of bullet since I was a kid, that's been for over 40 years. Time does fly. I have often wondered why original colt molds are set up for a ball and conical. I now have the most plausible answer, " penetration of clothing." This makes since to me. Balls for practice and small game. conicals for protection and combat. Thanks good cheer.

I also have never seen a original pistol packet loaded with balls, always conicals, I wonder why? more popular? Balls have a large following today. Whats best, most popular, and works in which gun are interesting questions.

I never considered that a very pointy bullet may be blunt after a trip thru the plunger. May explain some of the unusual bullets I have seen dug on treasure net.

A new custom mold? neat Idea. As omnivore said, It does not have to be a perfect colt to be like an original. Plenty of variety in the originals! I have also seen that in the dug ups.

How about an original mold? I have seen modified or poor finish molds with outside dents but good cavitys in the 125 dollar range. dated design, but may work ok with added insulation and gloves.

Jay

[rodwha]

My understanding with using conicals over balls was also the penetration when horses could be involved. Not to mention that a a paper cartridge is easier to assemble and hold together with a conical vs a RB.

But the RB supposedly performed much better on troops. The conicals just zipped through.

[R.M.]

I have tried several conicals, and yet keep coming back to the round ball. They just work.

[Captain*Kirk]

I believe what you are referring to were known back in the day as 'picket bullets' and as the fable goes, may have been responsible for the original batch of Walkers issued to the Texas Rangers exploding. As legend has it, the Rangers, having never seen pointed bullets before, some assumed that the pointed end went down to ease loading; when fired, the blunt end encountered massive resistance entering the forcing cone, hence excessive pressure buildup, causing the cylinder to rupture. At least, that's how the legend goes, anyway.
Couldn't swear to it, but I thought I had seen some brass picket bullet moulds on the Track Of The Wolf site some time ago.

[Good Cheer]

With no verification I've just suspected that the bursts were caused by the metallurgy and a design that was pushing the envelope of the available technology. Currently produced Walkers aren't all that great but most likely are way much better than the originals.

[Outpost75]

Elmer Keith's 1956 book Sixguns has a very good chapter on management of the cap&ball revolver, as well as good historical data.

When I was a kid, the first handgun I was allowed to use, and the one I learned on and hunted with was original Colt 1860 Army. The original flask and bullet mold were with it. We only shot the Pickett bullets briefly and quickly rejected them as a viable choice because they were less accurate and were poor killers on game. The round ball with 28 grains of 3Fg and a felt wad, with ordinary black axle grease applied over the ball works well. We killed all manner of small game and a deer or two with it until I got a job and bought my first rifle, a Winchester 1894 .30-30.

[Captain*Kirk]

With no verification I've just suspected that the bursts were caused by the metallurgy and a design that was pushing the envelope of the available technology. Currently produced Walkers aren't all that great but most likely are way much better than the originals.

Yep, that's the other theory. Either one could be true, or both.

[Dryball]

I love my Walker and wouldn't trade it for everything. About the only thing I would change (besides putting a loading lever retainer) is better sights. Has anyone ever tried putting sights on the barrel?

[Captain*Kirk]

I love my Walker and wouldn't trade it for everything. About the only thing I would change (besides putting a loading lever retainer) is better sights. Has anyone ever tried putting sights on the barrel?
Dryball, I've seen pictures of a few different configurations, from the not-so-typical 'half-penny' or 'half-dime' custom front sight, to the 3rd Dragoon style rear leaf sight (which, quite obviously, shortens the sight plane considerably). I guess the sky's the limit if you aren't concerned with being HC and just want it to shoot POA. Try doing a web search for Walker Colt, search under images, and you should find some.

[Good Cheer]

Yep, I've put a set of sights on a percussion revolver. A .31 caliber FIE in the late 70's. The frame and barrel were on different axis. The sights allowed some pretty good shooting to be coaxed out of it with 88 grain swaged bullets.

And by the way, to complete the thought on the Walker's blow up problem...
The revolver was designed to take bullets and too much powder, pushing the envelope of the available tech too far to be user friendly. The guys shooting revolvers back then had the same brains as now. They crammed it full of powder, crammed in a bullet and then had to cram it hard until the cylinder would turn so's they could shoot it. And sometimes one went boom instead of bang because there just wasn't enough extra strength built in to be what is now referred to as idiot proof.
Least ways that's my theory.

[MoldyJoe]

I've been gone a while but am back. I have only ever tried RB, because they work for me. But I am curious if anything else works better. What about lube on top to seal the cylinder? Would that make a difference with "pointy" boolets?

[Omnivore]

Has anyone ever tried putting sights on the barrel?

There are many examples of barrel mounted rear sights on period Colts. Some factory and many after-market additions. They were typically a simple blade type dovetailed into the back of the barrel, but some of the Dragoons designed to work with a shoulder stock had flip-up sights for different elevations. Also the Mason type cartridge conversions often had the hammer nose shaved, and a rear sight installed on the barrel.

So there is plenty of precedent for having a rear sight on the barrel of an open-top Colt.

As far as seating a flat based conical backwards; There is a forcing cone (taper) at the barrel breech. A flat base bullet turned backwards (becoming a wadcutter, you mean) had its square shoulder hitting a taper. No big deal. Now say your conical is seated forward, so the tapered end contacts the tapered forcing cone. Depending on the taper of the bullet and how well it matches the taper of the forcing cone, you could, and almost certainly will in all cases, have far more contact surface hitting the forcing cone all at once compared to using a wadcutter. So no; I'm saying that's not a reason for a kaboom. Wadcutters have been very common for a very long time anyway.

IIRC, Colt's improved the steel for their revolvers in or around 1860, long after the Walker's kaboom issues. They knew there was an improvement to be made and they did something about it.

As for conicals not being as accurate as RB; No one shoots RB anymore outside of muzzleloaders and C&B revolvers, but for very rare instances where someone is trying to limit recoil and report to a bare minimum. There are extremely accurate revolvers shooting extremely powerful cartridges (44 Mag, 454 Casull, 500 S&W, etc), and some very accurate revolvers shooting heavy conicals from black powder cartridges. Say what you will about this or that individual C&B revolver and I can't argue with you, but I will not be convinced that a very powerful load with a heavy conical suitable for medium game can NOT also be very accurate. It's done every day.

If lighter bullets and lighter charges were the only path to accuracy, we'd all be shooting 22 shorts or air guns. So it all comes down to the gun's geometry and fitting (and of course to loading practices, and fouling mitigation). The 50 BMG can be (and is) extremely accurate if it's built right. So is an 18" ship's gun lobbing a 1,000+ pound projectile.

[Good Cheer]

I'd like to try a .451 ball mold altered to have a hollow base cylindrical skirt with a diameter that will let it slip into the chamber and shear on the ball. If I try it for .44 caliber it's gonna have a pretty thin walled (though shallow) skirt.

[Southron]

Recall that Whitney manufactured those Walker Colts. In addition, Whitney was a cheap, cheap S*B. My theory is that he purchased the cheapest iron he could and used that to make Sam Colt's Walker cylinders. All Whitney cared about was getting the money for making the guns.

Whitney was well aware that Colt's contract with the Ordnance Department required that Colt had to replace all of the "defective" Walkers at Colt's expense and not Whitneys.

Colt was no fool, because the minute he could, he built his own armory in Hartford where he could be in charge of everything, including the quality of the iron the cylinders of his Dragoon revolvers was made out of.