Looking for 500 gr load for 45 colt

[DrCaveman]

Howdy everyone, and a happy new year

Im trying to load up my lee 459-500 spitzer boolits in 45 colt cases to shoot from my 460 magnum. I dont want to endager the cases too much, but the gun will handle whatever...60k psi or more

I dont own any 45 colt guns, nor swap or mingle with anyone who does. So very little danger here of this being loaded into the "wrong gun".

Still, im only looking for about 650-800 fps for the load. I am choosing to try 45 colt cases because the required seating depth using 460 cases puts the front driving band well below the mouth. I also figure the case capacity of the 45 colt (with huge 500 gr boolit seated) is more conducive to efficient powder use. Somethng very fast or medium fast is what im hoping to use.

I have a pretty wide variety of powders, but hoped to use either bullseye or sr4756

Anyone tried this? I cant find much info out there about boolits this heavy in 45 colt

Thanks

[RED333]

John Linebaugh biggest boolit is a 315 gr in a 45 colt pistol(Ruger)
You just might have to work it out your self, but let a few more chime in.

[DougGuy]

You most assuredly don't want any fast burning powder in that load! The point of diminishing return in that caliber is around 340gr. The reason you won't see any data for that weight of boolit is because it is WELL out of spec for the caliber. Translate = WELL out of any degree of safety. Personally I think that is an accident waiting for a time to happen.

[DrCaveman]

Yeah, 315-360 was the heaviest boolit i could find data for in 45 colt. I may just have to extrapolate down from 460 mag loads.

Im looking at about 8-9 gr of sr4756 for my target load. Any advice would be appreciated

[DougGuy]

Already gave you the best advice you could hope for. I'll say it again. Don't DO it! You don't have any .45 Colt guns, and if you keep going, you ain't gonna have a 460 Magnum either. End of discussion.

[44MAG#1]

I've shot 515 gr bullets in a 454 Encore pistol in 454 Brass. Also in 45 Colt brass loaded to the same OAL.
24.5 GR H110 ran 1250 in 12 inches of barrel.
With the faster powders I don't know.
It can be done but a lot of it is data that is self developed.
Just be careful. I don't know anything about that bullet.
I would pick a too slow powder because that will drop velocity without going to a fast powder that could cause a problem if data was not very carefully developed.
Reloader7 would maybe a good pick and start with maybe a 90 percent load density.
If you are careful you will be okay.
I used Remington 45 colt brass and Federal 150 primers. In the 454 cases I used Federal 205 primers.
The cartridge looks stupid with that long 500/515 gr bullet sticking out of it but it will do okay.

[longbow]

I have been thinking along the same lines but with .44 mag and for rifle... a kind of .44 whisper ~ heavy boolit of around 400 grains in standard .44 mag brass.

I am not real familiar with .45 LC but I have to think that with a 500 gr. boolit seated those rounds would not fit any .45 Colt handgun except maybe a single shot so any danger of mixing rounds up and getting them in the wrong gun would be almost impossible and much less likely than some of the heavy loaded Ruger only rounds.

Personally I cannot see why this couldn't be done safely with the correct powder. After all, look at the Whisper cartridges which have grossly oversize/heavy for caliber boolits and they work just fine. Not revolver rounds but pressure is pressure and with proper powder and charge you should be able to get what you want.

I have an old article by Ross Seyfreid where he had a .500 Linebaugh made up and he was shooting 600 gr. boolits out of it so 500 grs. from .45 Colt seems quite doable to me since you have the cylinder length.

Also, Dr. Richard Gunn designed a boolit for subsonic use in .45 Colt:

92810

"Heavy subsonic .45 bullet & nomenclature of special loads

Thank you for the information that you sent. I e-mailed NAMMO-LAPUA Oy about their trans-sonic research but have not yet received a reply.

Attached is a copy of a 480 grain .45 caliber bullet that I designed for use with the .45 Colt or the .45-70. The bullet mould is going into production at N.E.I.

According to the computer, 10 grains of 2400 should push this bullet to 900 fps from a 24" barrel with a maximum pressure of 35,000 psi and a muzzle pressure of 650 psi. Maybe it will qualify as a heavyweight "cat's sneeze?"

Dick"

Not sure if that is helpful or not but it may give you something to work with.

Longbow

[Whiterabbit]

My two go to bullets for the 460 are the 425 ranchdog and the 500 RCBS BPS bullet. I've tried others

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=65955&d=1364705832

(ranch dog is next to the barnes bullet).

My first suggestion, is that you are gonna have trouble getting the bullets to stabilize if you have the gain-twist S&W. If you have a 1 in 16, you are gonna be good to go.

the ballpark you wanna be in is 20-30 grains of IMR4198. 20 grains will get you mid to high triple digits, 30+ gets you around 1300 fps. I load the ranch dogs with 32 grains, and the BPS with 31 grains. Those are my pet loads. Might push them a smidge harder if I can show a benefit at 100 ayrds. So far, I can not. In all cases, I ALWAYS load my bullet right down on the powder, no matter where the crimp groove is. case tension works for me. Were I you, I'd start with 24 grains of IMR4198. And work down from there. I don't know what speed you will get, but 24 grains *should* be good for about 1100 or 1050 fps out of my gun with a 425 grain ranchdog. I think. I should check my notes on that one.

I do know that 20 grains of 4198 will do about 900 fps from a 500 grain barnes solid, but that's a special case because I turned .458's down to .451. Not the best comparison.

H110 also works. This is off the top of my head, but I think its 25-26 grains for a 500 grain bullet to get you 1200-1300 fps. That powder is much more wet-and-wild, so it might tolerate a good download too. Always at 100% case fill, again. My wrist can't take these, but it's what the barnes bullets seem to need. Not very civilized. Not very civilized at all. I don't recommend it.

----

IN ALL CASES I use 460 cases, not 45 colt. Not a safety thing, I don't own a 45 colt either. I like the case tension and reduction in chamber fouling. The neck tension doesn't hurt, and, like having the 60ksi overhead that you'll never need, having the capacity availability that you'll never need is nice to have too.

30 grains of IMR4198, give or take, (very loose here) will fill a 460 S&W case about .8" from the mouth. Roughly.

[Whiterabbit]

by the way, IME doug guy is right. 350-360 is the sweet spot bullet for the BFR anyways, the can-do-no-wrong bullet that seems to like a wide variety of loads (all at or under 25 yards, never bothered to test them to 50 or 100). Bullets like the 425+ will tumble if you use them with the wrong powder (AA#9).

[DeanWinchester]

Search .450 Mongo.

I had a bolt action in 45 colt for a while. I was sizing back .458 boolits to .454. Never got up to 500g but I loaded a lot of 475g Lyman 457132.

[DrCaveman]

Thanks to all for the input.

Dougguy, i appreciate the warning.

To the rest, i appreciate the support.

Looks like the fast powders are OUT. But, being that im going for low velocity anyway, there is no point in going too slow in burn rate. Prob 2400 or 4227 is about right.

But at this point im not settled on anything, and may not do it at all, but i would like to continue the discussion nonetheless. That is, if anyone else has anything they would care to add.

While i do respect the position that my proposal may be far from spec and therefore dangerous, i also understand via personal experience that there are many exceptions to a rule. I dont play "odds"; i do everything i can to prepare for any outcome.

No, i dont play the lottery. Much.

[Whiterabbit]

Other thing: 460 has 75% of the water weight of a 45/70 case. I have an excel sheet to interpolate 45/70 loads into 460, and I compare this to correlated loads dropping the weight into known 460 data, as well as simply using the interpolation straight between the tiny overlap that actually exists between the 45/70 and 460 with respect to bullet weight, and have even loaded and shot these over a chronograph. It actually works. You can take, very roughly, 75% of a 45/70 load and load it in a 460 and it usually works out.

The only exception so far has been 4895. Plenty of people use it in 45/70. Doesn't work in 460. At all. I assume it is just too slow. But the faster stuff, good to go. (fast and slow by 45/70 standards)

[44man]

Twist, twist, twist!
We tested some of the heavy boolits and they like to go through paper sideways. They also turn real fast in penetration tests. Nothing to have them exit the top or sides of soaked paper.

[Whiterabbit]

Twist, twist, twist!
We tested some of the heavy boolits and they like to go through paper sideways. They also turn real fast in penetration tests. Nothing to have them exit the top or sides of soaked paper.


My first suggestion, is that you are gonna have trouble getting the bullets to stabilize if you have the gain-twist S&W. If you have a 1 in 16, you are gonna be good to go.

totally. Not that I would not expect a drastic change when adjusting the twist 25% from 16 to 20, but it really really is drastic. for example, to get the 300 grain lee shooting with AA#9, it was something like 40 grains vs 28 grains for the same performance. the slow twist really needs those bullets moving.

[fixit]

I read a an article some years back in a gun book, might have been one of the gun digest type books, but I think it might have been about handguns only, but the writer was searching for a 1000 fps load for a 500 gr flat nose slug for elk, out of a freedom arms .454, but his first loads were in a 45 colt ruger that had been rebarrelled to handle the heavier slugs. point that needs to be made in this is that the rifling needs to be fast enough to stabilize the heavier bullet. may or may not handle it at the speed you're looking at, with the current twist.

[Whiterabbit]

1 in 16. verified good to go. to 100 yards, anyways.

[44man]

Pressure is important as boolits get real heavy so the larger the case the less pressure will be for a given load. But a small case limits pressures so you still need to find loads that are safe in any gun and that means reducing them as boolit weight increases, that reduces velocity and spin.
One way around it is to increase twist so a boolit spins enough at the lower velocities.
Working with the 45-70 BFR with a 1 in 14" rate has shown it is perfect from 300 to around 480 gr boolits (maybe to 500 but I have not tried.) at the velocities it can reach due to the short 10" barrel. Increase barrel length and rate can go down because velocity goes up so a long barrel can shoot heavy at 1 in 16" to 1 in 18".
1 in 20" is VERY hard to shoot other then light boolits fast.
The common revolver mistake is to get a good large caliber and shorten the barrel and expect it to shoot heavy boolits at the reduced velocity so I stand by my idea that as a barrel is shortened, the rate should increase.
Look at the .475 Freedom with a 1 in 18". It loves a 350 to near 400 gr boolits but after 400 groups open. Some claim it shoots "lights out" with 420 to 440 gr boolits but it must mean an elk or buf at 50 yards will die. Extend the range and report.
The BFR with a 1 in 15" comes on line at 400 gr UP and will be "lights out" at 500 meters (547 yards for the unwashed.) The BFR does NOT like light boolits unless shot slower. ( I think the 420 gr in the .475 BFR will still be accurate at 1000 yards.)
I am talking pure accuracy because any stinking boolit can be shot.
The relationship between case size, pressures, velocity, boolit weight, spin, accuracy, barrel length and distance is usually lost with revolver shooters.
Not a single good rifle shooter would ever think of all the dumb things to try.
The one I really get a kick out of is the guy that buys a S&W .460 with a gain twist and gets the barrel cut to 4"!!!!!
Hate to say it but there is a point where boolit length can not be stabilized in any gun.
The 500 in a .460 is TOO BIG!

[DrCaveman]

Well, due to my gain-twist, 5" barrel, it seems as though my options are limited here if i am looking for accuracy. All the charts and info i can find (research inspired by your suggestions and observations) tell me that my twist is far too slow for a 500 gr boolit traveling the speed i am aiming for.

Except the RCBS chart. http://www.gmdr.com/rcbs/rcbstext8.htm

Why do you figure their info is so tolerant of slow twists? Obviously velocity is not taken into account, but still, their chart wwould seem to be an endorsement of what im trying

Regardless, i wont expect much from this project in terms of tack driving 100 yd accuracy. I bought the 5" barrel because i wanted a handgun, not a small rifle with a pistol grip. So i dont shoot it at 100 yds or even 75. Thats what my rifles are for, and scopes. Hitting a paper plate at 50 yd is satisfactory to me. And if the boolit is sideways, but hits the spot i am intending, then also quite satisfactory.

I guess i will dial the 255-300 gr loads for maximum accuracy. I wont expect much from this one, but we'll see how it turns out.

Thanks for all the input

[Whiterabbit]

Doc,

I have found the loads you seek. It happens when I try to shoot 350+ grainers with AA#9. Keyholes galore. If you can't stabilize the 500's, and are willing to tolerate the occasional flyer (say, 1 in every 10 rounds almost missing paper at 50 yards) then I think you will be able to achieve what you seek with 500's.

I DO have one more recommendation then, though. You said you want to try the LEE 459-500 spitzer. This is, IMO, the wrong bullet for you. I think you will find that you have better luck with the LEE 457-500 RFN-GC. It's a little shorter, you don't need the BC value of the spitzer, and will let you get more powder into the case.

Because now that you admit it's a 5" gain twist S&W, IMO and IME you are gonna need all the help you can get. IMO you need a max charge of H110 (IMO about 550 grains is the max bullet weight for using H110 in the 460) and go right up to the point of flattening primers to get the accuracy. Of course you already know that factory ammo flattens primers TO DEATH, so when I say "a little flat" on the primers, I don't mean a 65ksi load....

at least 26 grains of H110 will be needed for this, of that I am sure. I'd start (again) at 24 and work up and up and up, with the goal of finding max.

Wont be fun to shoot, but I'm sure it'll get paper plate 9 times out of 10 at 50 yards, tumble or no. And penetrate like crazy.

Speaking of tumbles, I've seen it. They are of epic size. as you say (or imply). it is what it is.

Anyways, for your accuracy goals, and admitted gun, I think it is possible. I'm just not confident it can be done with the spitzer, and pretty sure it can't be done at 800-1000 fps.

good luck, and I DEFINITELY wanna see results, good or bad. after I put my son to bed ill upload at least one "sideways bullet impact" target with oversized bullets.

[Whiterabbit]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=92949&d=1389162572

Yep, was aiming for the bull. Open sights. Pretty sure this is 50 yards. You can see if I had the windage right, the first tumble took it high, the second took it REALLY high.

If you don't get the powder or bullet right, its not too hard to get results like this. Today, I can duplicate these groups on command at 100 yards, MINUS the two tumblers. My goal is half this size.

[44man]

Brings up an interesting question about the S&W gain twist. At what barrel length is it at max rate?
When the factory makes shorter barrel lengths, do they speed up the twist or does it max out at a shorter distance? I sure don't know the gun.
Seems it was made for a lighter bullet at high velocities for long range so I don't know what weight boolit would top it out so they don't tumble.
Longer, heavier boolits can't be shot as fast of course and they don't really need to be shot faster because only what will make them stable is needed, go too far and things reverse fast.
I shoot heavy 330 gr boolits from my SBH with a 1 in 20" twist but the funny 405 gr will tip at 50 yards. I have not chronographed my boolit but a 320 LBT is shot at 1316 fps, any less and accuracy is lost. A little faster is also not accurate so the rate can handle my 330 gr. Testing has shown the 1 in 20" is good from 240 to 330 gr, nice range. BUT, my barrel is 10"! My 330 will NOT reach velocity with a 4" barrel. It shoots great at 7-1/2" from a friends SBH Hunter, same load I use. It shows there is some leeway.
I have worked with many BFR's and the faster twists are so much easier to work with and extend boolit weights over a wider range without going over pressure.
The BFR .460 has a 1 in 16" rate but I do not know what the S&W has.

[Whiterabbit]

what I know about the gain twist is it starts at 100 and ends at 20 at the muzzle. That's for the 8 3/8" barrel. What I do NOT know, is do they just take their 14 or16 inch blanks and cut them down, so the 12's are 200-20, and the 5" is 50-20, or are ALL their barrels 100-20 gain twist? I just don't know. I am pretty confident S&W wouldn't take it off the muzzle though, I'm pretty sure that bullet is spinning out of the muzzle as if it were a 1 in 20 twist, no matter what barrel length it is.

I also know the very tight chambers and short throat of the S&W leads to much lower velocities compared to the BFR, with its loosey-goosey chambers and looooong throats. put identical rounds in a 12" X-frame and my 10" BFR, my BFR chronos faster. I can shoot a 275 grain barnes bullet faster than an 8" X-frame shoots a 200 grain barnes bullet.

the increased gas expansion volume has another benefit. It allows me to shoot with more powder. I show no pressure signs with loads that will completely flatten primers and show sticky extraction from an X-frame. It was actually one of the challenges I dealt with at first trying loads on the BFR to be shot from the S&W. (twist, chamber diameter, and max load point).

[44man]

Depends on what end they cut barrels at. If at the muzzle end, the twist will get slower.

[Whiterabbit]

Totally.


I am pretty confident S&W wouldn't take it off the muzzle though,....

For all I know, they do each barrel 100-20 no matter what length.

[44MAG#1]

This is just like the Twilight Zone and I expect Rod Serling to start posting anytime.
This same thing was gone through nearly a year ago or so.
I even sent 44 man photos of my shooting with a 454 Encore with loads I shot with a 515 gr bullet after all of the posturing and arguments that a 500 gr bullet would flat not work.
The 454 Encore has a 16 inch twist.
Now a 460 revolver may be different but what harm will it do fro the OP to try the 500 gr bullet?
If it works it works if it doesn't it doesn't.
No harm no foul.
Maybe I am in the Twilight Zone and these posts do not exist.

[Whiterabbit]

well, it's all about success criteria, yes? Look at the groups above. That's (I think) a 590 grain Led Zeppelin bullet. 7 of the 9 shot stabilized perfectly fine, two did not. The group size is what it is too, open sights or not. Would you consider that successful or not? Did it work or not? Now, what if all the holes were round? Still something that "worked"? If a rifle shooter did that, he would be cursing his rifle! Even Safari double rifles are supposed to shoot better than I did up there, sideways shots or not.

On the other hand, given that I loaded those rounds and I know what the goals were, and the limitations, I would have considered those poor groups an absolute success, had I not gotten two tumblers! Accuracy could have been developed over time. Fixing the wobblers, less so.

Now, if your standards for success was accuracy to the gun's capability (guaranteed 2" at 50 yards by MR), then that test was a spectacular failure.

Criteria! 44man can still be absolutely right, just depends on the criteria for "working" and "not working". I don't always agree with him due to looser requirements for "what works", but I do admit I always listen to him and keep what he says in mind. And it has certainly been once or twice at the range when I see a target like that and think to myself "OK, so this is what 44man was talking about." But I like to experience it for myself. Then I can talk about it here, rather than regurgitate the wisdom read, but unearned.

Anyways, long winded post just to say "I agree with you, but I also agree with 44man". "And I personally feel, that I have the experience to back up that opinion."

[44man]

Yes, 44mag#1 did good but the twist is OK with the Encore. The Ruger and Freedom are both 1 in 24" and the S&W .460 is said to be 1 in 20".
Nothing wrong with trying of course, it is all fun to experiment.
I do have a suggestion and that is to find some boolits before buying a mold.
I have made some goofy molds and they are in the scrap bag, never to be used again. It hurts to waste the blocks it took so much time to make. I dread the thought if I had bought them!

[44MAG#1]

44man hit the nail on the head.
Get some samples and try it.
Don,t try to urinate in someone else's Cheerios.
Quote the obligitory safety cautions and wish the guy good luck.
I am a screwball as most of you know BUT a careful screwball.
I like my guns and myself and my appendages too much to just go hog wild and pig crazy and just slap any powder and charge weight in a case and drop the hammer.
Some of reloading is EXPERIMENTING on ones own.
If you me or anyone else havent done a particular thing and doesn't know any actual first hand accounts by anyone who has then you don't know. One is just assuming and we all know about assume.
I don't know if a 500 gr will work in a revolver in 460 but I KNOW it works in a 16 inch twist 12 inch Encore 454 at 1250 fps.
Know how I know? I did it.
I also knw the same bullet I have shot in my 454 will work in a BFR 45/70 at the same velocity using 2400 as I have done my best offhand 100 yard groups with it than any other gun I have.
Do I need it, NO. Just like 44man doesn't need a 500 JRH, 475 Linebaugh and a 45/70 to kill WV. Whitetail either.
I don't care if it works in a 460 revolver I don't have one but I am not going tell him it won't work if I don't know.
I hope it does.
But then again.

[DrCaveman]

Hey, i really appreciate all the honest discussion here, it has opened my eyes a bit and i feel to be better informed so as to make a safer decision here with my load.

Honestly you have gotten me pretty pessimistic for much success with the 500 gr load, but since i already lubed and sized the boolits down to .4525", they are now useless for my 45-70. So ill probably try a load with 2400 (around 9 gr) and a load with 4227 (not sure yet of charge), since i dont feel those powders will endanger my safety... Just maybe the backstop might get beat up and target missed

Whiterabbit, remember that i am planning to use 45 colt cases (despite chamber ring issue) so i can accomodate a LOT longer boolit than with 460 cases. Of course case capacity goes way down but i plan to seat out pretty far to minimize that issue.

On the barrel twist issue, i have sent an inquiry to S&W about the specs for the 460V, so i expect that mystery to be solved soon.

Since this seems to be an experiment of interest to a few of you, i will surely post pics of the loaded rounds and report back about their perfrmance. Maybe pics of targets if we are lucky.

Really i think my big takeaway here is that my 255 or 300 gr pills shot around 1100 fps will prob work better and shoot easier than my initial suggestion. A keith level load is happening with those boolits. Report to accompany the 500 gr test. May happen this weekend if the ducks arent flying to my spot

[Whiterabbit]

caveman, you need the case tension to keep the bullet in there. If you use 45 colt cases:

I suggest loading only one at a time.
I still suggest using H110, as much as you feel comfy cramming in there. starting at 26 grains, going up from there till you flatten primers.
Have fun cleaning yer gun chambers :)

[DrCaveman]

Whiterabbit

I am exposing some revolver function ignorance here, but when you say case tension are you referring to a taper in the cylinder that occurs toward the throat? Then presumably the 45 colt case mouth would fall well behind that, leaving the fit a bit sloppy?

I get why the chamber will ring and foul. I dont really get why the boolit tension would be different. Cant i just give it a good crimp?

[Whiterabbit]

the tension the case has on the bullet. When you seat a bullet, the bullet doesn't just fall out of the brass when you turn it upside down. the brass has a hold on that bullet. It's held by tension. That's the case tension. Has a huge effect on group size, or so I have found.

You'll have ot play with crimp vs no crimp. But I'll bet ya ten bucks that bullets will walk out of their case no matter what kind of crimp you put on it. Maybe if you crimp in a lube groove, but for what you want to do, you aren't gonna have much boolit inside the case. Dunno. That's beyond my experience. But if I can make a 300 grain LEE bullet walk out of a 460 case, pretty sure you will have no problems making a much-higher-inertia 500 grain bullet walk out of a colt case. Proof? none. Just a gut feeling.

That's why its just a suggestion. You'll know it right away when you load two in the cylinder and lock it up after firing :)

----------

Anyways, I actually don't crimp my revolver rounds. Of course, you can see in the pic, there is an enormous amount of bearing surface between the boolit and case. So, Idont have issues with bullets walking out under recoil, huge inertia or not.

[44man]

Whiterabbit

I am exposing some revolver function ignorance here, but when you say case tension are you referring to a taper in the cylinder that occurs toward the throat? Then presumably the 45 colt case mouth would fall well behind that, leaving the fit a bit sloppy?

I get why the chamber will ring and foul. I dont really get why the boolit tension would be different. Cant i just give it a good crimp?
You are getting good advise. Crimp is NOT the answer. I have worked with revolvers for well over 61 years, might have shot the smallest groups ever out to 500 meters on a regular basis and have posted how to load forever. Many have experimented to find I am right. Understand that you must test.
Whiterabbit and 44mag#1 are correct as are so many here like Felix, Gearnasher, Larry and on and on.
Do more research on this site because everything you need to know is HERE.

[DrCaveman]

Well last weekend i finally got to shoot some of these.

I decided to go with 8.4 gr of 2400. Boolit was crimped in the grease groove nearest the boolit tip.

Shooting was surprisingly light and accurate! Better overall than my 255 gr FP loads in front of 17.5 gr 2400.

Problem was, inconsistent ignition. Boolit pull-out was not a problem...i picked one sacrificial round to occupy cylinder spot #2 for 5 consecutive shots, each time loading a freshie into cylinder spot #1. No pullout under recoil detected.

However, shot recoil, report, and POI varied substantially. Ive never experienced this with 2400 before. Case fill was nearly to the base of boolit. I thought of trying magnum primers but have since waffled

Prob going to abandon this load since i had to do a bunch of shuffling of dies and stems in order to make it work. Used components from my 45-70 set, my 460 mag set, and my 45 colt set just to make it work. Then had to get everything back to working order so i could load all cartridges normally.

Just not worth the record-keeping and possible confusion in the future. I like to step up to the press, grab my set of dies fixed onto the turret disk, and know that seating depth is my only adjustment.

Thanks for the help, anyway. Good shootin to you all

[lar45]

I'm chimming in a little late on this one, but here's my 2cents worth anyway. :)

Have you tried seating the 500gn bullets in a 460 case? Does the case bulge at the bottom of the bullet? I've never cut a 460 case open so I don't know how far you can seat a bullet without buldging the case.
If the 500gn bullet will fit in the 460, then it might be worth while to try your loads in the 460 case. Having much more of the shank of the bullet seated deap in the 460 case will probably help with more consistant ignition.
Do you have Quickload or a buddy with Quickload that you could use?
Quickload is a great tool for playing what if with bullets and powders that are not listed in any loading manual.
If you want to post your bullet length and loaded length, I can put the numbers in and send you back what to expect for pressure and velocity.
Here is a link to Quickload. Some people like it, some don't. I think it's a great tool to be used in conjunction with regular published load data.
http://www.neconos.com/details3.htm

I don't have a 460, does anyone know the water capacity in grains of a 460 case? My older version of Quickload doesn't have the 460 in it. I have a 1.8" case holding 60gns of water, but don't know if that is accurate or not.

[Whiterabbit]

that's about right. The 460 case holds "about" 75% the volume of a 45/70 case.

I can't tell you if the 500+ grain bulelts bulge the cases or not because my BFR chambers are loosey-goosey and will chamber ANYTHING (and shoot great). Part of the learning for loading for both BFR and X frame was ensuring every resizing was full down to the base, cause otherwise what comes out of the BFR does not go into the X-frame. Most of the time, if I am loading above 425 grains, the OAL is too long for an X frame. Sometimes too long for a Ruger #1, too.

I can SEE the case bulge, but that doesn't mean anything. My sizing dies are aggressive.

[DrCaveman]

95178

here is a pic of the loaded rounds, with yugo 7.62x39 for reference. Dont they just look right?

anyway, for this load, the case length was 1.27". boolit length was 1.36". OAL was 2.01"

Ha ha! this is first time I noticed that boolit was longer than the case! thats probably not a good sign, eh?


lars, would you mind letting me know what pressures and velocities I should expect from trying charges of 8.0 and 9.0 grains 2400?


here's what I got for the 460 case

length (fired, unsized) 1.78"
case weight empty: 150 grains
case weight full of water: 214 grains
capacity in h20: 64 grains

so lars, your estimate was pretty close.


and by the way, S&W never got back to me with an answer about twist rates. I got a courtesy email, saying to wait up to 5 business days for a real response. that never happened.

thanks for the continued help

[Whiterabbit]

That is a great pic, thanks.

I still REALLY think you should use a 460 case. Reason being, your S&W probably has tight chambers. The fouling will need to be cleaned to chamber a 460 later. Not like my BFR that will shoot 45's all day long and still chamber 460's. A few of those and I guarantee a 460 will be sticky at best to chamber.

Still, they look cute. I like 'em.

I will still be surprised (very surprised) if they do not pass through the target sideways. minimum 1 in 20 shots, maximum 20 in 20. And I demand you report back after shooting them to tell me if they stabilized or not! :)







Whiterabbit, remember that i am planning to use 45 colt cases (despite chamber ring issue) so i can accomodate a LOT longer boolit than with 460 cases. Of course case capacity goes way down but i plan to seat out pretty far to minimize that issue.

And I get it, I really, really do. and I still suggest the 460 case, I don't care that the ogive is seated WELL below the case mouth. It's a revolver, not an autoloader. The case for these loads is just a chamber-wall shield and a way to maximize case tension for maximum burn efficiency, as well as prevent bullet jump without the need for a heavy brass-working crimp.

[DrCaveman]

whiterabbit

ask, and you shall receive. I already shot all these up

15 shots, not a single keyhole. i was amazed at the nice clean hole, in fact. id been getting a bunch of keyholing with some 9mm loads so I was on the lookout. And, the accuracy was pretty good other than the vertical variation due to the inconsistent ignition.

I just looked again at trying this boolit in the 460 case. it is simply too long, so that the driving band would be about 3/8" below the case mouth. that just seems hokey and the crimp would do weird things. I think I need a mold with a flatter nose. I did consider knocking off the point of the spitzer, maybe with sidecutters or a file. That would make it work, but woulkd be hard to keep consistent.

[Whiterabbit]

I edited after you responded, but I addressed your concerns, so I thought. 500 grains is huge. Bearing surface is huge. I don't crimp, nor is it needed for my gun. the case tension is astronomical with so much bearing surface. :)

10 bucks over paypal says you get improved ignition with more case tension and bearing surface, too! Honest offer.

[Whiterabbit]

rather than cut the noses off the lee, consider getting the RNFP lee mold to play with too. That gets your weight and bearing surface without the spitzer too. $25 for a 2-cav is more expensive than free with a set of dikes, but its a great bullet for the 460. The first 500 grainer I tried.

re-read post 34 with a more careful eye.

LRM + 460 case + maybe a smidge more powder should really fix the inconsistent ignition. With one caveat:

I don't know where the bullet sits in relation to the powder (I know you said nearly to the top, but that isn't quantitative). It NEEDS to be smack on top of the powder for 100% case fill Maybe 105% case fill, if 2400 tolerates compression. Seriously, this is important. I'll put up a second $10 over paypal that says IF your test loads had 75% case fill or less, that seating the bullet deeper with your loads AS IS will improve ignition. Though I'd be much more confident if it was 100% case fill AND a mag primer. That should be a 100% fix.

If you are at 100% case fill and still getting poor ignition, then the fix is simply more powder if you can, and a mag primer. If you can't (And I suspect you have plenty of upward mobility re pressure) then you need to try a different powder. 4759, maybe 4198, H110 is good too if you are very sure about 100% case fill.

-----------------

I know you say you are done with the load. I think you should give it a second shot. I don't know why you were using any 45/70 tooling, but if it was because of the spitzer, IMO there's no reason not to use the barnes stem on your 460 die. If you only have a SWC stem, its worth getting the barnes stem for 460 or getting a lee RNFP and using your SWC stem. So you aren't juggling your tooling. I agree that that is annoying to the point of load abandonment.

But to shoot the longies without tumbling in a shorty S&W is not easy, and to have the recipe close, if not there, IMO, should not be abandoned or ignored! You have 90% of the recipe. You should take it to 100%!

[44man]

(Well, due to my gain-twist, 5" barrel, it seems as though my options are limited here if i am looking for accuracy. All the charts and info i can find (research inspired by your suggestions and observations) tell me that my twist is far too slow for a 500 gr boolit traveling the speed i am aiming for.) Quote;
Yes, because if your gain twist barrel was just shortened without a twist speed up, you have a LOT less twist then the barrel was made with.
You need to ask yourself if the same gain twist was used and just the barrels cut down. You are reaching a smooth bore with too short.
I have a lot of trouble with guys shooting a heavy boolit stable at say 1300 fps with a long barrel. Then want the same from a short barrel that can NOT reach 1300 fps.
But pay attention, the boolit is stable at 1300 fps and then guys want to shoot it at 2000 fps from a rifle with the same twist!!!!!!
I sit and laugh like crazy with the .500 S&W, .454, .460, .475, 45-70, and even the .44 mag with 4" barrels. Some actually have 2" barrels????????????????????????????
OK, I will stop laughing for a while. The .460 was rifled for a light bullet at high velocity with a long barrel, NOT a heavy boolit at a slug pace. Get it?

[DrCaveman]

44man

I have gladly accepted the fact that i am not using the gun/cartridge as the folks at S&W intended. I shot the factory 200 gr loads, as should any 460 magnum owner. They were ridiculous. Also, not accurate for me. Too much boom & flash, i couldnt get over my flinch.

Not good for much of anything, what with the 5" barrel and iron sights. Im NEVER going to shoot this at anything important (game) beyond 40-50 yards, you have my word on that. Im simply not confident in my abilities, regardless of the intentions of the cartridge designer.

Since S&W hasnt told me the exact twist rate, i am trying to let mr. Gun and mr. Target tell me what is working. Whiterabbit has a point...i am pretty close to making this work (for MY purposes) so i should keep trying.

I respect your concerns, but the performance of the round is suggesting that things may be different than theory would predict

Maybe my goals are different than others'

[44man]

44man

I have gladly accepted the fact that i am not using the gun/cartridge as the folks at S&W intended. I shot the factory 200 gr loads, as should any 460 magnum owner. They were ridiculous. Also, not accurate for me. Too much boom & flash, i couldnt get over my flinch.

Not good for much of anything, what with the 5" barrel and iron sights. Im NEVER going to shoot this at anything important (game) beyond 40-50 yards, you have my word on that. Im simply not confident in my abilities, regardless of the intentions of the cartridge designer.

Since S&W hasnt told me the exact twist rate, i am trying to let mr. Gun and mr. Target tell me what is working. Whiterabbit has a point...i am pretty close to making this work (for MY purposes) so i should keep trying.

I respect your concerns, but the performance of the round is suggesting that things may be different than theory would predict

Maybe my goals are different than others'
I understand fully and nothing against your work to find something. The main problem is the ability of the gun itself. I feel the same about the .454. A solution for no problem.
I feel the same about the .500 S&W when the .500 JRH is the best of the best for a .50 in a revolver.
I will never own a .454, .460 or .500 S&W.
Look at the funny 700 gr boolits tried in the .500 S&W----Stupid in the extreme.

[Whiterabbit]

think the JRH is better than the Linebaugh? I rather like the .510 size more. Bullet choice bothers me none too much, as long as a couple suitable mold options are available, which they are.

[DrCaveman]

Y'know, i just had such blistering success with the lee 452-300 rf in 45 colt cases that i am thinking again to abandon this 500 grain project.

In front of a light load of unique (about 6.3 gr) sans GC, this thing shot like a laser and was really gentle to boot. The economy and simplicity of this new load FAR outweigh any potential benefits of the 500 spitzer. I didnt chronograph the shot, but i suspect it would do fine on blacktail deer at moderate range or a bear in camp. Effectiveness on two legged threats is surely substantial

Like i said, i dont intend any shots past 40 yds. In this range i think the huge meplat of the 300 gr boolit will do major damage. I think this project has found a new direction... Maximizing accuracy and velocity of the 300 gr boolit without adding a gas check. Nor sizing. I like simple, sometimes

[lar45]

Okay, so with the 500gn bullet seated to 2.01" leaves a useable case capacity of 16.3gns H2O
8 gns of 2400 should be doing 600fps @ 11ksi
9 gns of 2400 should be doing 670fps @ 14.3ksi
For a 100% load density of 14 gns of 2400 should be doing 1000fps @ 45ksi
This is just a guess from Quickload not load data, but a chronograph reading should be able to say whether or not it's close.
The 100% load density looks like it should be safe, but I would still work up to it.
I agree your 45-500 Whisper looks kind of cool.

[Whiterabbit]

the lee 300 shot really well out here in my buddy's X-frame

[DrCaveman]

Ok then, i think i have it figured out.

Gonna keep running this nice mellow 300 gr 45 colt load, maybe push it up to 7 gr of unique. Ill get out the chrono next time, hoping for around 750-900 fps. Good target load.

And try the 500 spitzer in 460 mag cases, with the die set for no crimp. Just let neck tension do its thing. 12 gr of 2400 is my plan, standard winchester large rifle primer. Rounds will look goofy, i will post pics for sure!

[44MAG#1]

Before I would go giddy over a 300 gr using a "light" load of Unique or any similar powder I would do this test.
Shoot 6 over the chrony holding the gun down making sure the powder is in front of the case, cock the gun and slowly bring it up making sure the powder is in front of the case and fire each shot like that over the chrony for the 6 and look at the ave vel.
Then shoot 6 more with the gun held up with the powder at the back of the case , cock the gun while pointed up and slowly bring the gun down while keeping the powder at the rear of the case and shoot the 6 like that. Then compare the averages. I have found even Unique very position sensitive at the "lighter" charge weights even with a 300 gr.
I have shot Unique with a 300 gr and even heavier bullets and have found it position sensitive.
I tried a load recommended by a "guru" on here with a heavy bullet with Red Dot and it puked on position sensitivity.
All powders are position sensitive to some degree but I don't like it to be exaggerated.
Anyone that will try to say faster powders aren't position sensitive is blowing smoke in the worst way.
I've not tried a mag primer to see if it will clear it up but that may be the case.
My 11/2 cents worth which is probably worth zilch to you.