38-55 reloading dies

[lonewolf5347]

I just purchased a H@R target model 38-55 and was thinking in which set of dies would work best?
I see RCBS group F has 38-55 Winchester @ Ballard reloading dies: I have no idea if the die that state ballard are a tad better to use?

Redding also states 38-55 winchester and ballard

Lyman has a set that states 38-55 Winchester

Lee has a set : I was also thinking in trying there factory crimp die instead of using a roll crimp
I also see somewhere they also state 38-55 cowboy reloading dies??
I like to here from guys that load the 38-55 and what dies do you use.

[oneokie]

Have RCBS dies that I use for the long cases. The RCBS Cowboy Action dies do not work the brass as much when FL sizing. (for use with .377" and larger boolits)
Use 375 Win dies for roll crimping the short cases.
Any die set will probably work, you will have to experiement with adjustment of the FL sizer to neck size enough to hold the boolit.

[scb]

I'm very happy with my Reddings. IMHO their "finish and fit" currently is superior to any other, very well made.

[garandsrus]

The RCBS Cowboy dies are probably best for the H&R. They have two different sized expanders so that you don't overwork the brass as oneokie said. They also look "cool".

John

[Buckshot]

..............I have the Lee set. I have a Marlin 1893 and the Uberti repro Hi-Wall in 38-55. Both the Marlin and Uberti use a .381" slug (grooves are .379" on both). To size, I only have to hit the top half inch or so. FL sizing in those dies will reduce the caseneck to hold a .375" slug.

As a consequence of this short sizing the de-capper doesn't work. I bought a general de-capping die to use before sizing. The extra step is kind of a PITA, but it beats oversizing the brass, and the casemouths are usually where the death of your brass begins.

I don't know if this sizing to .375" deal is common with other brands or not. Since the rifles chambered in 38-55 run the gamut, it would seem the industry would have had to pick a default, and .375" could be it. However the RCBS 'Cowboy' dies might be a bit less energetic in casemouth dimensions.

My Lee dies work fine otherwise.

.............Buckshot

[ACK450]

The RCBS "Cowboy" dies are the best for modern chambered 38-55's.

[iron mule]

i second the rcbs cowboy dies they work fine for me /// but you need to find out the bore size of your rifle to determine which would be best for you///////mule

[oneokie]

Good advice from all. One thing that will determine how much "neck" sizing you will need is your chamber diameter at the mouth of the case.
My Win 1894, mfg in 1899, I do not have to size the cases when using .380" boolits as they are a press fit in fired cases.

[Kraschenbirn]

I've got the Lee dies but no longer use them when loading for my Uberti Hi-Wall. I'm shooting "as-cast" (25-1 alloy) 265 grainers that consistely run just an RCH under .381. Since all my cases have been fireformed in the Hi-Wall and won't be fired in anything else, I deprime without sizing (Lee Universal DePriming Die) and flare the case mouth just enough to start the bullet without shaving any lead. Bullets are seated against compressed powder charge with thumb pressure and mouth flare straightened out using a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Unless your H&R has a really tight chamber, similar process should work for you.

Bill

[ktw]

I have the RCBS cowboy dies for a Uberti High Wall, but use the process described by Kraschenbirn; loading into fire-formed rather than resized-and-expanded cases.

The roll crimper on the Cowboy seater die works fine with bullets as large as .3825, but starts to mark the ogive before reaching the case mouth with bullets as large as .3830

-ktw

[montana_charlie]

Most of these answers relate to who makes the smoothest dies, or how tight the neck is.
Because he didn't ask it clearly, the actual question is not being answered.
The (hidden) question is actually, "What is the difference between 38-55 Winchester and 38-55 Ballard.

I don't know much about 38-55, but I DO know there are two different case lengths to be considered. Is that where the Winchester vs Ballard designation comes into play?

Once that is settled, the author will have to find out which chamber he has.
CM

[oneokie]

"What is the difference between 38-55 Winchester and 38-55 Ballard.




A Google search for either cartridge designation implies that they are one and the same. YMMV

As far as case length, FWIW, Lyman 45th manual lists a MAX case length of 2.1285".

The new Winchester brass is nominal 2.080", which is SAAMI spec. I did call SAAMI several years ago about the difference in case lengths. The person that I talked to did not know why there was a difference in case lengths. He also could not find any date on the cartridge drawing indicating when the case length was changed.

Starline makes cases that are 2.125" in length.

MC's suggestion for the OP to determine his chamber dimensions is correct as far as determining which length of case to use. Would also let the OP know how large his chamber is in the area of the case mouth. Starting point for knowing how much to size-neck size the cases for proper neck tension on the boolit.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Am loading 38-55's for 3 Winchesters and have 2 different sets of dies; RCBS and Lee. Both do a good job and I can't really say that one is better than the other. Both are well made. I have not been able to determine that one brand is making more accurate ammo than the other. In fairnes though the Lee set has a couple of features that are of some interest. Firstly one will probably never break the decapping pin although I don't think that one would break a pin anyway in the RCBS. Second is the type of lock rings that Lee uses;they are set by hand without needing a hex wrench. Third is the setup for the expander die...with the Lee it is "powder thru expander" whereby a funnel can be set into the top of the expander and the powder charge is poured directly into it, or a powder measure like the Lyman 55 set directly into it, or if the reloader wants to use the Lee style of (disc) powder measure that is automatically activated by running the case up (into) to the expander itself. I'm sure that other brands of dies for this caliber such as Lyman, Redding and Hornady will work just as well in producing good ammo.

[floodgate]

Montana Charlie:

"I don't know much about 38-55, but I DO know there are two different case lengths to be considered. Is that where the Winchester vs Ballard designation comes into play?"

No; the .38-55 was pioneered for the Ballard single-shots made by Marlin, and Winchester adopted the caliber when the 1894's first came out (no doubt they were also making their single-shot Hi-Walls for the same cartridge well before 1894; they were still learninng to deal with the erosive effects of the first smokeless powders, and it was another year - 1895 - before they came up with a nickel-steel alloy for the .30-30 and .25-35 barrels). The .38-55 Ballard and Winchester is one and the same cartridge, in the slightly longer length. The shorter case came in - probably in the '50's and '60's - when the ammo makers decided it was not worth their while to draw the longer cases, and they made the .38-55 from the shorter .30-30 basic drawn blanks - and, for some unknown reason, everyone started to chamber for the shorter case, and make dies to that specification.

w30wcf:

Chime in here; you're the REAL expert on this.

floodgate

[scb]

Regarding case lengths. The way I understand it floodgates explanation is dead on. Economically expedient, for the ammo manufactures. Not real great for consumers. Guess they figure most folks don't know enough to know the difference. That's why I get my brass form Starline. Besides I like the idea of supporting a company that supports shooting the way Starline does. If it weren't for them we'd be trying to make our own brass for some of the great old calibers the "Big Boys" (WW, RP) have abandoned.

[montana_charlie]

Starline makes cases that are 2.125" in length.
I guess if a guy keeps reading, he will learn stuff...even if he isn't trying to.

A short time ago, Dick Trenk anounced that Pedersoli is back on track to build a HiWall reproduction. When I posted this (someplace) on this forum, I mentioned the 38-55 chamber would be the "original long one" (not really knowing what that meant).
I also mentioned that Starline wa all set to put brass of that size on the shelves...and received a reply saying they already had.

OK...
You guys are saying how much you like that Starline brass you have been buying, and there was mention of the length being 2.125".

So...I found that old post by Dick Trenk...and the chamber in the new Pedersoli guns will be 2.130" And, he says Starline is all ready to put THAT size on the shelves.

Now, maybe some of you don't see much need to worry about shooting brass that's 5 thousandths shorter that your chamber. But I do.
So, if you DO happen to buy a second 38-55...and it is one of the new Pedersoli rifles...(in my opinion) you will also need a new batch of cases.

Now, I'm back to wondering if the current crop of reloading dies will handle that...
CM

[Pepe Ray]

Floodgate, M.Charlie et al,
In the early '70's, Winchester, the last remaining producer of 38-55 ammo, discontinued the brass.
Because, at the time , I was loading 38-55 for my personal use, I am only assuming that the loaded rnds were also discontinued. This left me in a pickle so I explored the use of 30-30 brass. Also purchased some custom drawn cases from a local boy, since deceased.
About 1977 or 78 Win. introduced the Big Bore 375. in there EXL, XLT or something "Deluxe" version. As I was working for a distributor ATT, I purchased one of the first 6 to come in to the store. 100 rds. of 250 gr ammo was next.
It was only after that (seemed like a LONG time after) that Win again started making 38-55 brass. AIR, at about that same season they had a M94 commemorative as well. No matter, the brass was ALL short and with NO explanation. We, including other 38-55 fans, were so happy to have new brass that we didn't complain or ask for explanations.
In retrospect, it seems obvious that the "late" brass is a "step child" convenience , available only cause they were making NEW extra heavy duty brass for the BB375.
Well thanks to Starline all is well again. It's a shame that a man has to grow old and fat waiting for such a simple expedient.
Sorry I haven't attempted to nail down exact dates. They aren't really important to understand what happened.
Pepe Ray

[oneokie]

montana charlie wrote:

So...I found that old post by Dick Trenk...and the chamber in the new Pedersoli guns will be 2.130"

Buffalo Arms at one time offered 38-55 cases in that length. One could check their web site for availability.


Now, I'm back to wondering if the current crop of reloading dies will handle that...

IMO, that would depend on chamber size. My thinking on the subject is that one would have to play with the adjustment of the sizing die to acheive proper neck tension. Crimping would depend on whether a roll crimp or taper crimp was desired. Roll crimping would be a die adjustment. The Lee FCD might be another story.

My RCBS 38-55 dies will roll crimp the 2.125" cases, but not the new 2.080" cases. For the short cases, I use 375 Win. crimp die for a roll crimp.

MC, do you have a link to the information on the Pedersoli rifles?

[Pepe Ray]

Shaking my memory up recalls that, the first thing I did was seek a receiver sight for the BB. Williams offered one "For the BB". I ordered one and found that the hole spacing did not match. As it turned out, Williams blamed Winchester and Winchester blamed Williams and I had to suck it up and pay for a gunsmith to install the sight. Rediculus!!! Should have been a simple screwdriver job.
My son took a moose with the BB last year.
Pepe Ray

[montana_charlie]

MC, do you have a link to the information on the Pedersoli rifles?
There hasn't been a lot said, up to now, but it is in the early part of this thread...
http://groups.msn.com/BPCR/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=35285&LastModified=4675649512252689066
CM

[Buckshot]

................Regardless the chamber length, if you trim your cases to that OAL, or if they are already your chamber length, once fired they WILL be shorter to some degree.

The Starline 2.125" brass fired in my 1893 Marlin or Uberti repro Hi-Wall both mike about 2.115", or ten thousandths shorter, give or take. I'll have to see with repeated firings if they get any shorter as they fully conform to the chambers. They're still better then the 2.08" ones, and these ALSO shorten up.

..............Buckshot

[Rrusse11]

Buckshot,
I'm eyeing off an Uberti "sporting rifle" Hi-Wall in 45-70 in one of the local shops. Are the guts of the action a replica of the original Winchester? I was warned by a gunsmith at one point that the new build Winchester Miroku's were a total redesign of the original innards and a bitch to work on.
Cheers,
R*2

[Buckshot]

Buckshot,
I'm eyeing off an Uberti "sporting rifle" Hi-Wall in 45-70 in one of the local shops. Are the guts of the action a replica of the original Winchester? I was warned by a gunsmith at one point that the new build Winchester Miroku's were a total redesign of the original innards and a bitch to work on.
Cheers,
R*2

..........The Uberti Hi-Wall has to be the only gun I've ever gotton that didn't get immediately get taken apart :-) I'd always heard what a cast iron puppy mother the originals were, so chickened out on this repro. I'd heard a few things had been changed to facilitate manufacturing. Also the hammer only goes to half cock vs the the original's going to full cock.

A friend of a shooting buddy (a SASS competitor) sent his Uberti to his gunsmith. He let me try it out and the 'smith did an outstanding job on the trigger, plus altered the action to fully cock on closing.........neato! :-) Since I thought I was up a creek after taking my Rossi M92 apart, I'm being very patient about taking the Hi-Wall apart.

..............Buckshot

[Rrusse11]

Buckshot,
Here's a link to a schematic of the Uberti;
http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/products/schem1885HighWall.tpl?manufacturer=Uberti&subcategory=1885%20Single%20Shot%20High%20Wall&category=Parts
haven't come up with one for the original yet for comparison.
Also on the shelf was a Miroku 1885 and the action was clearly different. I'm guessing that the Uberti is much closer to the original Browning design, and if you have access to a smith who can do some trigger work and change the half-cock to full, I'd go see him, {:o).
A friend has an original 1885 in 38-55 with a single set trigger that's a tack driver.
Cheers,
R*2

[lonewolf5347]

I did get a chance to slug the bore
.379 groove to groove
.376 land to land
I would think my choice of bullet would be .380
I called lee today and spoke with Tech: and he was not sure if the lee die will seat the .380 bullet
I been reading about the longer starline brass would be a good choice for the H@R and the larger diameter bullet .

[oneokie]

.381" would probably be better. Limiting factor will be the chamber dimension. Starline brass will help some in that regard as it is thinner.

[miestro_jerry]

The George Nonte book on Cartridge Conversion, says that the the 38-55 Winchester and the 38-55 Ballard are no the same cartridge. There are some small differences between the two and one seems to have been a BP cartridge while the other is a smokeless powder type. The Winchester seems to take a .377 bullet, while the Ballard takes a .375 bullet.

Jerry