shooting wall hangers

[corvette8n]

I have about a hundred Lee C312-185-1R cast sized and TL w/alox
Would like to try these in an 1891 Argentine mauser 7.65 and a 1918 Enfield .303.
Since I don't have headspace guages, I want to try 8-10gr of Unique under the bullet, watching for signs of pressure, I also have a 6.5 Jap and some 6.5 140gr comercial cast. My problem is I don't have dies for the Argie or the 6.5 JAP, I do have .303 dies and 6.5 Carcano dies, can I use these just to load the lead boolit.
any other suggestions of powder. I have about a lb each of AA#5, 700x and of course Unique. I just wan't to plink with these wall hangers.:Fire:

[MtGun44]

Why do you call these rifles wall hangers? Have they been condemned by
someone knowledgable, or just due to being old? A friend has a 91 Argie
with a rough bore that wouldn't shoot anything into a bushell basket at
50 yds until he tried 10 Unique in desperation. Bingo - 2" groups at 50.

These are quality guns with good steel (for the day!) and should be perfectly
safe unless bolts have been swapped. Your idea of testing with low power
loads sounds safe.

Personally, I check out new milsurps with the 'tire test'. I use an old tire
(dismounted) and put the buttstock into one side and have the forend
rested on the opposite side, and test fire it with a lanyard and a normal
milsurp load or factory load. If it shows normal brass condition after this
and no signs of problems, I call it 'proofed' and shoulder fire it. The tire
holds the gun safely, absorbs the recoil and won't mar the stock and is
FREE.

Certainly, checking the headspace is nice, but even slightly excessive headspace
is rarely a cause for ruptured brass on first firing, and if the brass is growing
a lot, necksize and you'll get at least 2-3 firings with moderate loads. Tight
headspace is overrated. ;-)

You may be able to necksize or partially necksize enough with the dies you have
to get the cases to hold some cast (or j bullets) and with 10 unique you may not
need to full length size ever. The key issue using the wrong dies is can you get the
neck sizing portion to your neck for the wrong caliber, body diameter and length of
brass will determine this. Lee collet dies are not expensive and do a great job of
necksizing.

Bill

[jhrosier]

check this out:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=13425

Jack

[Bret4207]

Lee sells perfectly useable dies in the mentioned calibers for cheap. BTW- My 91 Argie is one of the best cast shooters I have with the original Fat 30.

[pa_guns]

Hi

Do a full detail strip on the rifle before you take it out and shoot it. 60 year old grease is *not* your friend :mrgreen::mrgreen: Clean everything, not just the bore.

While they are apart check for cracks and missing chunks of metal. Lubricate correctly and put them back together.

Once back together verify that the trigger and safety do what they should.

That should be more than adequate to ensure that they are safe for a tire test.

Bob

[West Creek]

I second the inspection routine. A freind of mine was injured this last spring. The wound was superficial but could easily have been worse. He fired an old military bolt gun he bought at a gun show. In haste he did not disassemble and inspect before the test fire. Unfortunate for him someone had drilled a hole through the chamber and covered it back up with the wooden guards. When he test fired it from the shoulder the metal retaining ring and wood guard went into orbit. Something flew past my face and a piece hit his brother. I'm sure his finger took a couple weeks to heal as well.

[pa_guns]

..... Unfortunate for him someone had drilled a hole through the chamber and covered it back up with the wooden guards. .....

Hi

Ouch!!!

Mostly all I find when I tear them down is a firing pin that's cemented in place by antique grease, or locking lugs that won't lock due to the same grease.

Bob

[NVcurmudgeon]

My 1891 Argentine is a great CB shooter. I use the 7.65 sizing die for a neck sizing die in .303 because the Argie case is slightly larger than the British. Doubtful if the reverse would work. Can't see where 6.5 Carcano dies would help in either of these applications. Lee dies are cheap and get the job done. As others have said, if there is any doubt about safety, do a tire test and clean, clean, clean before firing. Shooting cast boolits though an old rifle containing jacketed bullet firing won't be much fun.

[Shiloh]

Why do you call these rifles wall hangers? Have they been condemned by someone knowledgable, or just due to being old?

These are quality guns with good steel (for the day!) and should be perfectly
safe unless bolts have been swapped. Your idea of testing with low power
loads sounds safe.

Bill

Good post Bill.

Corvette8n,

If you are unsure about the 91 Argie Mauser, take it to a gunsmith and have it looked over. I took my Krag to a gunsmith before I fired it. Cost me $15 for an inspection and to check the headspace. Cheap piece of mind.

He deemed it safe, and I have been shooting it ever since.

Shiloh :castmine:

[Ricochet]

Unfortunate for him someone had drilled a hole through the chamber and covered it back up with the wooden guards.
That very thing was often done by the Germans at the end of WWII to sabotage any GI who picked up and fired a war souvenir rifle.

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/791BAB15E99BC05/standard.jpg

To me, the 1891 Argentines are very trim sleek rifles. Personally I think the magazines look kind of racy :-). I have 2 infantry rifles. This one is all matching down to the cleaning rod, but has a buffed crest. Looks unissued.

http://www.fototime.com/D1C0D4FE8A65D60/standard.jpg

This one is all matching except for the cleaning rod, but it's crest is intact (later imports generally have intact crests). I don't know what that brass plate on thebutt is all about, but that's the way it came from Century Arms 15 years ago. It's stamped R. Robertson.

http://www.fototime.com/F19455D6631D6CC/standard.jpg

And the above is an Engineer's carbine. It's as cute as can be. Well I think so anyway :-) If the barrel is in any kind of shape at all I would expectthem to be exceedingly fine shooters, and you don't have to pussyfoot around with'em either.

While I wouldn't fire Norma 7.65 Argentine ammo in them (It's HOT stuff) in deferance to thier age, and no need to be abusive to them, as you want'em to last. You can use cast load data for the 308 in loading for the 7.65x53 Argentine. Just use the moderate loads shown, and if with pressures keep'em in the 40K range.

........................Buckshot

[beleg2]

The M91 is one of the best rifles ever made. I have most of the quality of 19 century on a modern gun.
I have read that argentine inspectors were send to Berlin, Germany and they inspect each and every rifle.
About safety of using modern load, here this rifles is rechambered for .308 Win. and .243 Rem. without any problem as long as I know.
IIRC the 1909 was proofed at 120 cups and the 1891 at 100.000 cups, the greater concern is that the 91 have no gas driving devises as 98 actions, but this is an advantage only if you have a case rupture.
Martin

BTW: the last rifle looks like a "carabina de caballeria", is the barrel 16" long?

[pa_guns]

Hi

One upon a time all of these rifles did indeed pass a proof test. I don't think that the metal has degraded with time.

We worry about this stuff mainly because we don't know if the rifle was abused. If the weapon stayed in military service, it probably did not see any weird hand loads. Barrel obstructions happen, but you aren't going to go shoot one with a bulged barrel ...

Eventually you will shoot out the barrel. Most Mauser actions will make it through a couple of barrels without complaint.

Bob

[Ricochet]

Somebody may have tested examples of them with 100,000 and 120,000 PSI (CUP) loads, but they weren't proofed with them.

[doc25]

Why do you call these rifles wall hangers?

I agree! Sad to say but the only centerfire rifle cartridge rifles I presently own are 7.62*39 (sks), 7.5*55 swiss (k-11), .303 brit (#4), and a 7.7 jap (Arisaka). All I own are wall hangers :(. I'll usually put a sand bag over the action on the first shot and inspect the brass, naturally a visual inspection beforehand is warranted.

[pa_guns]

Hi

These days Chinese micrometers are amazingly cheap. I take one with me to the range. That lets you check the diameter of the brass before and after you shoot. It can give you a pretty good idea just how crazy your chamber is ...

Bob

[405]

Not sure about the original definition of "wall hanger" but have noticed two- either a gun too valuable to shoot or a gun too old and disabled to shoot :mrgreen:

Tip on practical shooting/sights for some of these.

Many if not most of the trapdoors I've shot... shoot way!!! too high at 50-100 yards at minimum rear sight setting. Guess it's a battlefield thing. I have both an 84 and 88 trapdoor, both original, both with the Buffington rear sight. The small peep is very useful for load testing and target work. But the only way to get on paper to fairly analyze groups is to remove and replace the front sight.... it has to be taller to bring the POI down enough to be practical. With a small punch, file, hacksaw, drill and some sheet metal of correct thickness it's not too hard to do.

Punch out the pin holding the front blade. Trace the bottom contour of the original blade on the sheet metal but add +/- 1/8" to 3/16" to height while maintaining the top contour of the original. Rough cut the outline of the new sight with hacksaw. Place new blade blank into front sight ramp and carefully mark where pinning hole needs to be drilled. Remove rough blank and drill correct sized hole for pin. File and finish to desired shape and specs. Re-insert finished, new blade into front ramp and replace pin. Blue or black as desired. Any number of metals can be used- copper, brass, mild steel, etc.- your choice. With the taller front sight there is still plenty of rear sight height adjustment to shoot as far as most of us want :)

Even some of the old Winchester lever guns require this alternate, taller type front blade to be practical for target shooting. Why Winchester set up their front sight heights on some of their carbines this way I haven't a clue. Guess they were optimistic about the real and practical range for their guns. Like a 100 + year old blackpowder SRC in 32-40 where the only sight adjustment was from 100-700 yards OOOHHH- K!

I keep the original blades in small plastic ziplocs marked for gun of origin so at a later date I can replace if needed to put the gun back to original configuration.

This modification may also apply to other "wall hangers".
Shoot away within the pressure limits of the oldsters :)

[MtGun44]

A little history on the 'tire test'. A friend taught me this when I was a mere
lad. He had a great shooting Rem Rolling Block in 7x57. He FORTUNATELY
used the tire test for the first shot. As he approached the rifle after firing
the first shot with a lanyard - he was very surprised to find the hammer cocked,
block open and chamber empty !!!!! WHAT THE ----????:confused::confused:

So - he reloaded, stepped back and watched very closely this time. YIKES!
Was that blurr a case coming straight back at a couple of hundred miles per
hour?? :confused:

After finding the brass about 25 feet back in the grass (tire was laying on the
ground or the brass would have traveled a lot farther), he found a punctured
primer. Apparently the gun had been repaired and not tested. A too long
and sharp firing pin would puncture the primer, the gases would pop the
firing pin hard enough to cock the hammer (wow!!), which would unlock the block
and the (apparently substantial) residual chamber pressure would snap the
block open very smartly and eject the heck out of the brass - sorta semi-semi-
auto! Just watch where you locate your head!

A shortened and rounded firing pin tip made it work fine. It would have been
very bad to shoulder fire that, esp without shooting glasses. Hold up a RB
and see where the chamber lines up . . . . . .right in your eye. :(

Ya'll be careful out there, and remember the tire test. You'd hate to have
"7mm Remington" imprinted on your cornea.

Bill

[Earl Brasse]

You can't look @ something you are going to shoot too closely & always look twice, or have it done by a gunsmith.

I bought a Remington Rolling Block that had been restocked as a sporter with a new barrel in 45-70. The problem was the little "spot" half-way down the bore . It turned out to be the hole that the fellow used to attach the new fore-end wood went all the way up into the bore.

[MtGun44]

My Dad had a friend whose brother went off to WW2 and never came home.
A few years later they took the family .45-70 trapdoor out to shoot, fortunately
with .410 shotshells, a safe and low pressure combo. On the first shot the
stock exploded downward filling my Dad's friend's hand with splinters.

It appears that the dead brother had planned to make a lamp out of the old
trapdoor and had drilled a hole to put the lamp cord into the barrel under the
wood. OOPS.

Look carefully, as said above.

Bill

[leadman]

I have 2 1891 Arg. Mausers. One is original with a pitted bore, but shoots pretty good still. It has chromed parts on it, the magazine, barrel bands, etc. I read somewhere that this is naval issue.

The other one was semi-sporterized when I traded for it in 1982. I finally shot out the barrel and purchased on from Sarco years ago and had it installed. I restocked it then. This is a sub-moa rifle and has taken lots of game for me. Last one was a big cow elk with one shot at 175 yards, 180 gr. at 2,500.

Just might have to use it for elk this year if my quest for a good cast bullet load in the '06 doesn't pan out.

Good suggestion to have the rifle checked by a gunsmith. Gun is "omly" 117 years old.

[Dutchman]

The problem with advising someone to take an Argentine Mauser to a gunsmith to check is we don't have 7.65x53 headspace gauges in the U.S. and if your gunsmith takes your rifle in the back room and then tells you the headspace is fine while his hand is waiting for your $$$ you've been had. Insist on *seeing* the correctly marked headspace gauges.

I also have a 1891 rifle and carbine. The rifle is a C-prefix 100% matching and will shoot MOA with cast bullets. I wouldn't have believed it had I not seen it myself.

I bought a raggidy Century U-fix-em 1909 Argentine for $18 that was complete down to the cleaning rod. Not matching #. Chromed parts (very worn) that I also believe indicate navy use. Got a big ammo can full of military 7.65x53 ammo so I test fired it... holding it. I measured the case length and head diameter prior to firing.

The fired case stretched .020". Wow! Ok, so that rifle wasn't bought to fire anyway but I have fired some light cast bullet loads in it with no problem. It makes a great rifle to use for a jig on the milling machine for scope mounts or other such use.

Dutch