.45 Colt bullets in .45 ACP?

[S.R.Custom]

It's a long story, but I'm thinking about one or the other of these for use in the .45 ACP. Anyone tried it? How'd it work out? How's feed reliability?

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=615911

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=624669

[454PB]

Yes, I used to use the 454190 sized .453" in my Colt and in a Llama. I used Unique, and chrongraphed them at 900 fps. They were very accurate, fed well, but were kind of hard on the gun.

[lastmanout]

Many years back the American Rifleman magazine had a short article on using heavier bullets in the 45ACP (250 grains vs original 230). The autoloaders have problems with the extra stresses involved with the longer recoil cycle. Frame peening / cracking is a real threat. Lower velocites, heavier springs and a recoil buffer helped, but was not a final cure. I would pick a 230 grainer or less for use in the ACP.

[S.R.Custom]

I see... I'm not thinking of heavier bullets for any "mo powah" reasons, but rather, I'm dealing with cartridge OAL/nosediving problems and bullet setback issues with 45 ACP appropriate TC and SWC designs. Seems to me that having a groove to taper crimp up to would minimize set-back, while the roundnose/FP bullet profile could possibly aid in feeding as well as offer some degree of improved terminal ballistics. And the gun has fixed sights and shoots too low-- might help there, too.

Interesting is y'all's observation on increased stress on the weapon. I'll be mindful of it; Newton says I should be able to work up a load that despite the added weight would approximate the impulse generated by design-spec ball ammo... I might play with some AA #7 in that pursuit. Will let you know how it goes.

[txbirdman]

I'm using the Lee 250 RFN a little in my Colt Combat Commander. It has worked great thus far. I'm using Herco at about 810 fps. It will take a steel plate down with authority.

[9.3X62AL]

I haven't tried 250-260 grain boolits in a self-loading 45 ACP, but they do VERY well in 45 ACP/AR revolvers.

[scrapcan]

I agree with LongPoint, solve the feed issue first. I too think is sounds like magazine issues. Check your spring direction under the follower, or try a new spring.

Do you have a copy of Kuhnhausen 1911 manual? If not one of us could look up common causes of nose dives. I have not had nose dives, most of the issues I have had are related to tip up and were solved by reforming the feed lips or using new style magazines. Enough form me there are real 1911 folks on this site to help you.

There was a post some time back under the pistol/handcannon topis about heavy bullets in the 45 acp. maybe someone can remember the original poster.

[JMax]

255 gr SWC 45 Colt bullets were used for years (20+) at Second Chance shooting bowling pins w/o problems. We would arrive with at least one 50 cal ammo can full for practice and another for the shoot. Used the same pistols for more than a decade w/o cracks but the load was 5.3 gr WW231 in the 850 ft/sec range. When compensators arrived on the range some lads pushed lighter bullets at higher velocities and pressures, there one saw problems. Have fun plus the same load works great in my 25/22/625 in ACP and Auto Rim.

[Mk42gunner]

On Your feeding issue, make sure that your recoil spring is in good shape. When we still had 45's on board ship I had to replace several recoil springs due to weakness; they didn't have enough stored enegy to strip a round from the magazine and put the slide back into battery. Of course what do you expect out of a four cent recoil spring?

Robert

[S.R.Custom]

The feeding issue isn't magazine related. I've tried the stock units (It's a new Taurus PT1911), Wilson 47Ds, and Chip McCormicks. I've got a whole box full of springs & followers --I've been playing with 1911s for years-- and I've tried every combination, but no joy.

It's not the extractor-- it never gets that far in the loading process. Dunno if you're familiar with the problem of "angular gap" as Tripp Research calls it? Seems kinda goofy, but the phenomenon is real...

http://trippresearch.com/obi/images/angular%20gap.jpg

...what happens is when you stuff all eight in the magazine, the rim of the #8 cartridge hangs up on the extractor cut in the one below it. The slide comes forward, the round pivots on that extractor cut and immediately takes a nosedive and hangs up on the (polished) feed ramp before it even gets more than 3/16" forward in the magazine. And it's not the recoil spring; the stock spring in the Taurus is an 18.5 lb unit, and it's not lacking for stiffness. Get the first round in the hole, and the rest follow it right in when their turn comes.

I go through this every few years-- I get seduced by the cool-factor of a 1911, buy one, and I'm impossible to live with until I sell it. But I've got a Sig 220 on the way, and if it feeds, this current 1911 may be down the road in record time. But in the meantime, I'm going to play with bullet profiles...

[S.R.Custom]

I'm using the Lee 250 RFN a little in my Colt Combat Commander. It has worked great thus far. I'm using Herco at about 810 fps. It will take a steel plate down with authority.

How much Herco? I've got a buch of that I use for my .44 'utility' loads...

[txbirdman]

I'm using 6.0 gr. of Herco and it's working well. I did install a 20# recoil spring and Tripp magazine conversion but not because of this load particularily.

[454PB]

Have you looked at the Lee 452-228-1R? It's close to the 454190 in profile, and casts 230 grs. in WW alloy. I have this mould, and it feeds well in my .45's. I could send you some samples if you'd like.

[BD]

That's a new one for me. I can understand how it can happen as you describe, but I've never experienced the jam you're describing and to the best of my knowledge I've never had a loaded mag show the gap under the top round as in your pix. I'll have to take a look at some of my mags this evening, but it sure looks like a mag lips issue to me.

I'm not a Tripp mag fan. I bought 4 of the 8 rounders and 4 ten rounders when they first came on the scene and the QC was pretty bad. Inconsistent mag lips, mislocated mag latch cut outs, sloppy welds. I got no response to emails and his wife (?) put me off on the phone twice. Those
mags are in the "junk" drawer now awaiting "tuning" some time after I'm retired.

BD

[txbirdman]

I don't have Tripp mags, just the conversions that I used on Colt and Metal Form mags. The springs and followers have worked flawlessly for me.

[mtgrs737]

I use Chip's Power Mags exclusively and have never had a magazine related failure in either my Colt or my Springfield 45's.

[IcerUSA]

Haven't had that problem eather in my 2 45 ACP's , I think the old Hardballer did that with it's factory mag but I only run Kimber Pro mags in mine now and no nose dive problems .

Only problems I had where the feed ramp on the Kimber and AMT , the Kimber I had put in a new barrel and the old Hardballer was still factory , but now both will take what ever I want to feed them . :)

I did load up some of the Hornady lead 255gr 45LC boolits I got off *bay and they shot well out of the Kimber , just had to seat them a little deeper so they would fit in the mag . I'd have to check what I loaded them with .

But then I got into casting my own and the rest is history :) , all them condom bullets are just setting in the drower and waiting to be loaded at some point in time , but not at this time . hehe

Keith

[S.R.Custom]

That's a new one for me...

Me too. Like I said, I've owned a number of 1911s over the years, and this is the first that's been problematic this way. I've looked at a number of .45s since I've had this problem, and even my buddy's Sig 220 mags do it to a certain extent; the top one lies tight against the lips, and the ones below try to lay flat in the mag giving that goofy gap. Until the slide tries to pick it up...

I'm beginning to think it's a feed-ramp geometry problem. Shorter than spec rounds really have a problem; the feed ramp seems to be too far away from the round being fed, if that makes sense. The slide hits the round, and it has too much head room, and pivots down when it should be supported/pointed up by the feedramp. Given the way it is, not much I can do about it.

Never should've sold that Springer... [smilie=1:

[RayinNH]

Supermag, what happens if you only load seven in the mag? Does the first one hang up like number eight is presently doing? Can't solve your problem because I'm not an autoloader fan, but that little point caught my attention...Ray

[scrapcan]

Supermag,

It sounds like you have lots of experience with the 1911 so what I am going to post will most likely not pertain to your situation, but I thought I would mention it for others who may be reading.

Have you tried to tune the feed lips for an earlier release? Too late of a release can cause similar issue as you mention as far as the bullet nose hitting the feed ramp and coming to a stop. If you get the release timing to quick it will nose up and may hit barrel hood. You might sacrifice one mag and do a little feed lip tuning and polishing.m You will have to tune different styles of feed lips differently. parrallel lips you can break over the under side of feed lips (chamfer slightly) and polish. You can also shorten the feed lip length to allow quicker forward case release and extractor pickup. Here it also helps to put a slight chamfer on the extractor where the case slides up in it, this is the slot that I am talking about, just break it at a 45 for a very short length and polish. See this on page 61 of Kuhnhausen part I, volume 1.

A really good discussion of magazine geometry and tuning of magazines and bullet seating guidelines is on pages 154-157 part II of kuhnhausen Volume 1 manual.

As Ray asked, what happens when you load only seven rounds in the mag?

Does it do the nose dive every time? If you use slide release? If you rack the slide by hand? Are you making sure you are not riding the slide forward?

I just checked somefactory colt full size mags that I use to see if they have the gap that you see. Several of them do, but only when I load the last round into the mag. I generally do not have the trouble you are experiencing with them, but I have tuned them a bit to feed wad cutters.

I also have a set of reciever prints for 1911A1 configuration and it shows the feed ramp angle as 31 degrees 30minutes from a perpendicular lineto top of rails drawn through slidestop hole. It also shows the grip frame angle as 14 degrees 45 minutes from this line. So you might be able to use the inside of mag well as a guide to measure if you suspect the feed ramp angle is incorrect. Remember if you are polishing the feed ramp and barrel throat, do not change the base angles ( again this is just for others who might read this). There should be about 1/32 inch gap between to of feed ramp and start of barrel throat (according to prints and kuhnhausen).

I am very interested in finding out how you solve the issue.

[BD]

OK, I looked at a variety of mags over the weekend. Several of my older 47-Ds show this gap under round #8, and all of my older 10 rounders do as well. None of the newer 47-Ds or the 7 rounders show the gap. None of my 1911s have exibited the "nose dive" jam that you describe.

In looking at how the feed angle changes as you progress through the rounds in the mag, I'll side with Manleyjt in calling this a mag lips release timing issue. As the nose of a round hits the feed ramp, the rim of the round should be clearing the lips so the round can jump up under the extractor and enter the chamber more or less horizontally. It's possible that the relationship of the mag to the ramp in this pistol is a mite closer than standard requiring the mags to be tuned for a bit earlier release. I'd pick one and play with it a little.

A good exercise is to pull the firing pin and recoil spring, re-assemble the pistol and cycle a full mag through using just the pressure of your thumb on the rear of the slide to chamber the rounds. This allows you to watch the rounds feeding in "slow motion" and makes the issues more obvious.

BD

[Unter]

I had a similar problem with a 1911 in 9mm. Had to reeely adjust the extractor in to gain control of the round.

and now back to the more technical portion of the discussion.....

John O.

[S.R.Custom]

Like I said earlier, it's not extractor related; the nosedive jam occurs before the round is released from the magazine lips.

I think I've got it figured out. I'll post in a day or two when I've had time to finish.

[MakeMineA10mm]

SM, I just came across your thread here, and I see you think you've got it.

Just wanted to throw out one more idea for ya. If you're looking at cast bullet moulds and feeding is the primary issue, why not get the bullet that the gun was designed around? I'm speaking of the Lyman 452374, whose nose profile is an exact copy of the government FMJ-RN profile. This bullet has fed in everything for me, and it should solve your feeding problems, if any bullet can.

I've experienced the gapping problem you speak of in military 7-rd magazines, with Remington 185gr +P JHPs, but the gap didn't cause me any feeding problems...

And, yes, you shouldn't have gotten rid of that Springer! :mrgreen: :drinks: (I've noticed that the closer a 1911 is to government specs - the way Browning designed it - the better it tends to operate. There are a few mods that are useful - like lowering and extending the ejection port - but they should be ones that don't effect basic operation...)