Fastest accurate cast bullet load.

[dtknowles]

I have a cast bullet load that shoots over 3700 fps, will group under 2 inches at 100 yards and does not lead my barrel. Is this a record?

It is a little unconventional, it uses a plastic sabot but I use a cast bullet. I am sure that most of you are familiar with the Remington accelerator product line. Maybe some of you have tried these sabots with Jacket Bullets.

I have tried them with a cast 55 gr. LRN bullet in my 30-06 and no surprise they work as well with cast bullets as they did with jacketed. I have not reached the max load and expect that I could come close to the factory spec with a bit more load development. Right now I am working on improving the accuracy, I am sorting the sabots by the die mark on the sabot bottom and rejecting sabots for base defects (mostly flash). My Ruger 77 MKII never was especially accurate. I really wish that I could shoot targets at longer ranges. What is really the point of 3700 fps if the range is only 100 yards, need to see how flat the trajectory is and if the bullet settles down and maybe is under 1.5 MOA at 200 yards. This load is a lot more pleasant to shoot than factory equivalent 150 and 180 grain loads and should shoot a lot flatter than other light bullet handloads.

Tim

[madsenshooter]

I have a couple hundred of those sabots around here somewhere, will have to give them a try someday. Keep posting about how it works out for you, I thought they might be fun in my Krags or K31. I wish they made some alternative ones, like 6mm for 30 caliber.

[wistlepig1]

Keep us posted on your project, interesting!

[Bad Water Bill]

Let us know what twist your bbl is.

No matter what you cast them out of the PB can only handle a given RPM before they tear apart in a cloud of lead dust.

Somewhere on cast boolits there is a listing of the RPMs.

[Tatume]

I use a 330 grain cast bullet in a sabot at 2500 fps. It doesn't beat your record for speed, but it's right up there for energy. Kills like lightning too!

[mac266]

Wow, that sounds interesting! I've never thought of doing that, maybe I'll give it a try. I always wanted to make a varmint round with my .30-06 or .270.

[bhn22]

The farthest I've gone was a 250 gr .375 bullet at 2600 is a 375 H&H. I really don't like hard kicking guns.

[Bad Water Bill]

As far as selecting sabots go remember you will find most of them within 10-15' of your bbl.

Not sure if careful sorting makes any difference in down range accuracy. YMMV

[runfiverun]

Let us know what twist your bbl is.

No matter what you cast them out of the PB can only handle a given RPM before they tear apart in a cloud of lead dust.

Somewhere on cast boolits there is a listing of the RPMs.

or not.
it don't matter if he's using a 14 twist he is waaay beyond the rpm thresh hold thingy.
the boolit shoulda never even made it to paper, according to that chart they should be all over the atmosphere.

[Bad Water Bill]

I had Harry Mc Gowen rechamber a 223 Savage bbl to a 222. Harry just loves that cartridge.

Works good with J words but the 1-10 twist has even lino PBs vaporizing at about 20' even with mild loads.

Just a grey cloud at 20' and not even vapor beyond about 30'.

No way are you going to show me a 5 shot target at 25 yards.

RPM is critical when you push the envelope.

[leftiye]

Or something. RPM is just the excuse, not the cause. Paper patches don't hold lead together and you can shoot full house loads out of a 300 mag paper patched at over 3000 fps.(Pdawg). Bull shop's 3000 fps plus .221 loads with speed green didn't smoke the lead NOE 37 grainers. Jacketed boolits get smoked too sometimes. Melted boo/bullets maybe? Check with some of the guys shooting cast out of the ARs.

[Larry Gibson]

or not.
it don't matter if he's using a 14 twist he is waaay beyond the rpm thresh hold thingy.
the boolit shoulda never even made it to paper, according to that chart they should be all over the atmosphere.

The RPM threshold chart posted/listed has nothing to do with PP'd, saboted or jacketed bullets. They will have an RPM threshold also but it will be much higher. The RPM threshold chart posted is for regular cast bullets of ternary alloys. If one reads one would know that.

Also a ternary alloy has a lot higher tensile strength than pure lead. Thus they will take a lot more RPM before "blowing up". I think someone here has already pushed saboted cast bullets to 4000+ fps?

The RPM is "the cause" for inaccuracy of a bullet in flight. Were there no centrifugal force caused by the RPM then we could shoot all bullets, no matter how crudely unbalanced or constructed, into one hole all the time. Some can't seem to understand the difference between internal ballistics and external ballistics. Some apparently can understand the difference between a regular cast bullet, a PP'd bullet and a jacketed bullet.

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

I have shot the 45gr Lyman RN out of my Contender 23" barrel at 3,465fps with 1.8" accuracy at 100 yards. Coated with Hi-Tek coating, heat treated lino. No leading. Ran out of powder room with H4895.
I am able to shoot again after surgery so am going to switch powders and keep trying for higher velocity and better accuracy.

[John Boy]

I have a cast bullet load that shoots over 3700 fps, will group under 2 inches at 100 yards and does not lead my barrel. Is this a record? Hell NO, you have to be joking - not even close! Two inches is MOA @ 200yds. I've shot way under an inch @ 100yds and I've seen groups in the 0.1xx range
Might want to slow that load down and keep trying. When you are under 1" MOA @ 100yds with iron sights - post the target
Here's a couple of targets I shot with BP & iron sights at 200yds ...
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Targets/Ideal%20375166/IMGP0321.jpg ... 1.61 x 1.1"

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Targets/Ideal%20375166/IMGP0320.jpg ... 1.4 x 1.52"

And at 600yds, the MOA is 6". Shot a 5 shot group that was 1.25 x 2.50" with 3 holes that could be covered with a silver dollar ... yes, had 2 club members as witnesses

[Larry Gibson]

I have shot the 45gr Lyman RN out of my Contender 23" barrel at 3,465fps with 1.8" accuracy at 100 yards. Coated with Hi-Tek coating, heat treated lino. No leading. Ran out of powder room with H4895.
I am able to shoot again after surgery so am going to switch powders and keep trying for higher velocity and better accuracy.

Excellent way to alter things to push the RPM threshold up. But that's not exactly the generic regular AC' cast bullet of COWWs or #2 alloy with a regular commercial lube on it that most everyone (only a few bullet casters are wanting jump through those hoops) wants to shoot accurately.....is it? Yes we can all shoot some types of cast bullets very fast, even some with usable accuracy. Just the other day I was shooting regular cast bullets out of my .308W at 2600 fps quite accurately out to 300 yards. However, the average bullet caster isn't going to with his regular cast bullets out of his standard 9-10" twist commercial or milsurp rifle. Nor does the vast majority want to shoot the cast bullets fast. Most simply want the generic cast bullet to go bang with minimal powder usage and generally hit something at 50 or 100 yards.

I might ask if you slowed that cast bullet down to under the RPM threshold might the accuracy be a whole lot better?

How many shots were in that 1.8" group and can you repeat it?

Also have you shot a 10 shot group at 200 yards to check for non-linear expansion of the group?

Just a few days ago (check the current 6.5 CM thread) I put 8 shots in a 2.1" group with the 6.5 CM at 100 yards with a velocity of 1642 fps at 151,469 RPM. However, at 200 yards the group with the same load was 8.25"....twice as large as what a linear expanded group should have been had it not exceeded the RPM threshold. The non-linear expansion told the tale.

I ask because just the other day I put the first 3 shots of a 311465 cast of 80/20 linotype/lead and AC'd into 1.25" at 2750 fps.....thought I may be onto something but the next shot went out 4" and the actual 10 shot (a statistically valid sample) shot group was 5.1". Yes that was over the RPM threshold for the rifles twist. Out of those 10 shots I could also get 4 different 5 shot groups of 2" or less. Has to do with "random dispersion" of the shots within the actual accuracy cone of fire if the test sample (3 and 5 shot groups) are not sufficient to give a 90%+ assurance level of performance (accuracy in this case). Out of 10 shots with that same load at 200 yards only 1 bullet hit the 21x24" target paper. The others hit all around the target in a random fashion. What we get at closer ranges may not be what we get at longer ranges. A 1.8" group of ? shots may still very well be exceeding the RPM threshold.

Also you might check a recent post (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?222236-Suitable-AR-15-223-mold-RCBS-22-055-SP-22-or-Lyman-225646-or-something-else post #42) I made of the 223 results with a 225462 out of 2 ARs; one with 12" twist and the other with a 9" twist. That load out of the 9" twist AR was exceeding the RPM threshold which is why the accuracy was not as good as with the 12" twist AR. The 9" twist AR has the better sight and is, by far, the more accurate than the 12" twist AR. The difference in accuracy is the 12" twist was not exceeding the RPM threshold and the 9" twist AR was. That post will show you what the majority of 223 cast bullets shooters want to do with their own ARs and can expect with a regular cast bullet of ternary alloy lubed with a regular lube w/o having to jump through hoops.....they just want to cast, load and shoot. Only a very few of us really want to or like to push cast bullets to the limit.

Larry Gibson

[dondiego]

Hell NO, you have to be joking - not even close! Two inches is MOA @ 200yds. I've shot way under an inch @ 100yds and I've seen groups in the 0.1xx range
Might want to slow that load down and keep trying. When you are under 1" MOA @ 100yds with iron sights - post the target
Here's a couple of targets I shot with BP & iron sights at 200yds ...
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Targets/Ideal%20375166/IMGP0321.jpg ... 1.61 x 1.1"

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Targets/Ideal%20375166/IMGP0320.jpg ... 1.4 x 1.52"

And at 600yds, the MOA is 6". Shot a 5 shot group that was 1.25 x 2.50" with 3 holes that could be covered with a silver dollar ... yes, had 2 club members as witnesses

John Boy - Was your bullet exceeding 3700 fps while making those groups?

[dudel]

John Boy - Was your bullet exceeding 3700 fps while making those groups?

Personally, I'll take slower and a hit; than faster and a miss. But, that's just me.

[Nrut]

John Boy,
Apparently you misread the OP post..

[John Boy]

John Boy,
Apparently you misread the OP post.. What did I miss?
Was it the 3700 fps? So what? Velocity is not a contributor to better groups
Have something to do with the velocity at 100yds? If that be the case, 100yds is nothing for a 3700 fps MV reload shooting a flat trajectory. Two inches @ 500yd - different story
Is it a record? What kind of a record and based on what criteria or compared to what published records?
On occasion, I shoot my 220 Swift chronographed at 3741MV - 42gr AA2700 with a 55gr bullet. At 100yds = less MOA and 200yds = MOA or better. Regularly, I shoot BPCR reloads with a 535gr Pb bullets - 70gr FFg - 1180fps ... at 1000yds and can put lead splashes on a 10 inch bulls eye = MOA. These are not records ... just good shooting considering the distance-wind & mirage :)

[dtknowles]

My question was not about an accuracy record but a velocity record. I know that people have shot cast with much better accuracy. The reason I mentioned accuracy was I wanted to know how fast people have pushed cast bullets and still had reasonable accuracy and no or little leading.

I saw the responses that indicated my bullets should not have been able to reach the target because of the RPM. I don't know what to say, I just calculated my RPM, my 30-06 has a 10" twist so the RPM is 266,400 rpm unless the bullet is slipping in the sabot. I would think that smaller diameter bullets would be able to withstand higher RPM's as the radial tension increase with increasing bullet diameter and increasing bullet mass.

I see data in the Lyman cast bullet handbook with RPM's of greater than 200,000 and I don't think they would publish data for loads that go poof!!! That was for 25 caliber and 30 caliber cast bullets with GC.

Tim

[dondiego]

Personally, I'll take slower and a hit; than faster and a miss. But, that's just me.

Me too, but he didn't say he missed.

[dtknowles]

The point of higher velocity is to have a flatter trajectory so that errors in range estimation have a smaller effect. I know that is meaningless when shooting at a measured 100 yards but load development has to start somewhere. I will be testing at longer ranges but I have to travel farther and pay a fee to shoot at longer ranges. I guess that with rangefinders and mildot reticles this is less important than it used to be.

Tim

[geargnasher]

Give it up, Larry. A cast boolit CAN easily give excellent accuracy at extremely high velocity IF you launch it correctly, you just haven't figured out how to do that yet like some people have. Just because you can't doesn't mean someone else can't. Paper jackets and sabots make a better launch easier to achieve at high pressure/velocity/fast twist than a bare boolit, so they shoot better. The sabot has the triple advantage of launching a smaller DIAMETER boolit and fully supporting the base at crown exit too, so even less circumferential mass to cause balance issues and less muzzle yaw is experienced with those, hence the straighter shooting.

There may be a lot more people than you think interested in HV cast shooting judging by the PMs that myself and a few others get pretty regularly, at least those haven't already let you convince them that it isn't possible before they even tried.

Thanks for your continuing efforts to keep us all in the dark ages of boolit shooting, and for assuming the authority to tell us what our goals are as a whole. :drinks:

Gear

[onceabull]

AND This is why Paper Patched boolits, or Sabots cum boolits, have been winning all those long range matchs at Camp Perry since the start of the 20th century... Onceabull

[45 2.1]

Give it up, Larry. A cast boolit CAN easily give excellent accuracy at extremely high velocity IF you launch it correctly, you just haven't figured out how to do that yet like some people have. Just because you can't doesn't mean someone else can't. Paper jackets and sabots make a better launch easier to achieve at high pressure/velocity/fast twist than a bare boolit, so they shoot better. The sabot has the triple advantage of launching a smaller DIAMETER boolit and fully supporting the base at crown exit too, so even less circumferential mass to cause balance issues and less muzzle yaw is experienced with those, hence the straighter shooting.

There may be a lot more people than you think interested in HV cast shooting judging by the PMs that myself and a few others get pretty regularly, at least those haven't already let you convince them that it isn't possible before they even tried.

Thanks for your continuing efforts to keep us all in the dark ages of boolit shooting, and for assuming the authority to tell us what our goals are as a whole. :drinks:

Gear

+1 to Gears post. We have a lot of people around where I live that shoot long range (500 to 800 yards). You have to have a ballisti-plex type scope or a mil-dot type to enjoy that though even with HV loadings. Try that with the common 1,600 fps loading sometime and you'll find out for yourself. We don't sight in at the one distance, but enjoy shooting at unknown ranges to build our skill level.

[MtGun44]

I don't remember the numbers but Dan at Bull Shop has run some REAL cast boolits (in contact with the bore)
up to some fairly high numbers.

Bill

[leadman]

I have exceeded 3,000 fps with the same 45gr RN Lyman boolit with Carnuba Red for a lube and maintained accuracy around 1.5" for 5 shots, then had to run a dry brush thru the barrel and the next 5 would do the same.
On the Hi-Tek coated boolits at 3,465fps these were 3 shot groups as I was running the first tests trying to acheive high velocity with no leading and checking for accuracy. I also shot the same loads thru my son's AR but they were 300 fps slower and still had about the same accuracy. His is either a 7 or 9 twist, hard to read the marking. My Contender is a 12 twist IIRC. I just fired my first rifle yesterday after having surgery to remove a salavary gland from my left cheek and I'm a lefty so it stopped any testing for awhile. I hope to resume the tests next week.
I do feel the same as Larry that the Hi-Tek is "cheating" the physics of shooting boolits. I have shot various alloys and estimated the strength of the alloy with the info in Lee second manual. I can tell when I have overpressured the alloy by the light gray smoke that comes out the muzzle. One advantage of shooting a boolit that the lube does not smoke. This usually happened well beyond the figures in Lee's manual so I can only guess at what is happening. It would take some equipment that I do not have access to to try to determine if I am correct.
I am going to switch the 223 from H4895 to Tac as the load of 27.5grs of H4895 fills the case almost to the top of the case neck. I should be able to get higher velocity with the TAC if my previous use of it holds true.
Coating the boolits with Hi-Tek is neither complicated or expensive. My ovens come from Goodwill and a liter of HT will coat approx. 26,000boolits for less than $90 delivered to my door.

[Larry Gibson]

Gear and 45 2.1

Hard to give up on the truth. Lots of folks here know about the RPM threshold and where they lose accuracy. Yes you can add copper to the alloy, PP the bullet, put it in a sabot and put it in a jacket and achieve accuracy at higher velocity. Other than you two making claims I don't see a "lot of people" coming forward with such claims of moa and less accuracy at 500 - 800 yards at HV with regular cast bullets. Just who are these "lot of people"?

It's not too hard to shoot 500 - 800 yards with a cast bullet. Was a fellow here had a thread going on doing just that with the 311299 I think(?). Was using a .308W and was pushing the RPM threshold but wasn't past it. I've done the same with my M70 .308Ws with 12' twists and that same bullet. It doesn't take a "ballisti-plex type scope or a mil-dot type " scope either. I've done it with the issue sights on my M1903, the Redfield Palma rear sight on my M70 Target rifle and the Lyman 48 on my M1903 National Match Type II. Oh, I also shoot out to 1000 yards with cast bullets using the tang sights on my M1873 match rifle and my M1873 OM. I also do it with just about any scope that is readily adjustable in elevation and has repeatable adjustments. It's a matter of getting an initial zero at 200 or 300 yards with the scope adjusted near the bottom of the elevation adjustment. It's correct bases here that do the trick.

I also have a couple mildot scopes and several target scopes w/o the "ballistic-plex" reticle that also work fine. I do have a couple ballistic plex scopes also and they do work ok. I prefer to make sight corrections though as that is the more accurate method for longer range shooting. Just check out the match shooter shooting Palma and 600 - 1000 yard matches sometime. Won't see any of them using a "ballitic-plex" for aiming..........you also won't see many snipers use mildots for precision shooting, they reach up and turn the elevation knob to the range; that's what it's there for and it is far more precise at longer ranges, even "unknown ranges" than using guestimated hold over which is what using the ballitic-plex reticle is. But then none of them obviously know what they're doing as you are the expert on all this HV long range shooting.....you and "a lot of people around where I live "......

We don't sight in at the one distance, but enjoy shooting at unknown ranges to build our skill level.

That's pretty awesome 45 2.1.....not zeroed at any one distance and you are accurate at 500 - 800 yards and "unknown ranges".....just plumb amazing.......That's some "skill" alright. Bet the military sniper schools are beating down your door for you to teach them that "secret".

BTW; I have shot cast bullets over 3000 fps, that's easy to do if the cartridge is capable of it. I have also shot a 16" twist .22 center fire at 3200 fps with very good accuracy. Not the best accuracy the rifle was capable of but very good none the less. I do know how to shoot regular cast bullets at higher velocity with accuracy and am willing to show anyone, my door is always open.

How about you gear? I'll be going through Texas, right by Kerrville next month. Gear how bout I stop by Kerrville and you can show me how you shoot cast bullets accurately at HV? I'll bring my Oehler M35P along so we can compare it's velocities to your claims, how about it?

In March on my way home I can easily swing up by your place 45 2.1 and then you and "a lot of people around where I live can show me all that HV cast bullet shooting at 500 - 800 yards? I'd settle for a couple 10 shot groups over the chronograph at 100 and 200 yards though.

I'm up for it, how about you two?

Larry Gibson

BTW on another thread Nobade and a couple others do the same as I with slower twist 30-06 barrels of 14"; that is to shoot regular cast bullets accurately at high velocity. Not hard to do at all.

[onceabull]

Now that "Bullshop" has been put in play on this thread, he has posted for sale in the recent past on GunBroker his Saboted 53 gr 22 cal.boolits,with targets and load data in which a pretty fine group was fired at 100 Yd.with chrono,reading above 3900 fps.(I don't recall whether he shot with a 308 or 30/06,but I think the photo annotations tell that..I'm betting those were real groups,not the sort repetitively shown us by the great one (starmetal)...Onceabull

[dtknowles]

Now that "Bullshop" has been put in play on this thread, he has posted for sale in the recent past on GunBroker his Saboted 53 gr 22 cal.boolits,with targets and load data in which a pretty fine group was fired at 100 Yd.with chrono,reading above 3900 fps.(I don't recall whether he shot with a 308 or 30/06,but I think the photo annotations tell that..I'm betting those were real groups,not the sort repetitively shown us by the great one (starmetal)...Onceabull

It sort of would have been nice if this was the first response to my OP. So yes, someone else has tried something similar and has produced higher velocity and better accuracy. I found the auction and he also makes claims about the right bullet and careful seating in the sabot. The auction claims the target was shot with a 30-06

Tim

[onceabull]

dtknowles: Tim, Dan C.(Bullshop) likely has data & experience for other 30 cal.cartridegs with those,& has always in the past(12-15 years) been quick to share by e-mail..I held up responding to your post because I could see on reason to throw cold water at what you've done already,and don't ordinarily carry water for any commercial vendor unless it has been earned twice over. Onceabull

[dtknowles]

.............It doesn't take a "ballisti-plex type scope or a mil-dot type " scope either.......... Won't see any of them using a "ballitic-plex" for aiming..........you also won't see many snipers use mildots for precision shooting, they reach up and turn the elevation knob to the range; that's what it's there for and it is far more precise at longer ranges, even "unknown ranges" than using guestimated hold over which is what using the ballitic-plex reticle is.......

Larry Gibson


Larry

I know that the above was not directed at me but I do want to clarify my statement about mildot scopes. I expect that you understood my point but still allow me to say it again. I was defending the desire for higher velocity as beneficial in shooting at unknown ranges but acknowledgeing that with todays optics we have better estimates for ranges so the uncertainty of unknown ranges is less so flatter trajectory is less of a priority. The combination of flatter trajectory and better range estimates, should lead to more hits.

Shooting at known ranges is a different game and yes I am a turn the elevation knob shooter. I was also a you have to sight-in at the different ranges and count the clicks and write that down shooter. You can't just use a ballistics table and expect to be more than just sort of close.

Tim

I was not talking about the longer ranges that your discussion references, I would use something else if I was shooting at more than 300 yards and unless I can improve the accuracy I would not consider this load for a 300 yard shot even on paper.

[onceabull]

dtknowles: Tim, Dan C.(Bullshop) likely has data & experience for other 30 cal.cartridegs with those,& has always in the past(12-15 years) been quick to share by e-mail..I held up responding to your post because I could see on reason to throw cold water at what you've done already,and don't ordinarily carry water for any commercial vendor unless it has been earned twice over. Onceabull

[45 2.1]

We don't sight in at the one distance, but enjoy shooting at unknown ranges to build our skill level.

That's pretty awesome 45 2.1.....not zeroed at any one distance and you are accurate at 500 - 800 yards and "unknown ranges".....just plumb amazing.......That's some "skill" alright. Bet the military sniper schools are beating down your door for you to teach them that "secret".

You are quite the card Larry, and your lack of comprehension is astounding. You need to read the above till you understand it. There is quite a difference in meaning between the words "the" and "any" in the context of the above statements.

[Larry Gibson]

QUOTE=dtknowles;2556970]Larry

I know that the above was not directed at me but I do want to clarify my statement about mildot scopes. I expect that you understood my point but still allow me to say it again. I was defending the desire for higher velocity as beneficial in shooting at unknown ranges but acknowledgeing that with todays optics we have better estimates for ranges so the uncertainty of unknown ranges is less so flatter trajectory is less of a priority. The combination of flatter trajectory and better range estimates, should lead to more hits.

Shooting at known ranges is a different game and yes I am a turn the elevation knob shooter. I was also a you have to sight-in at the different ranges and count the clicks and write that down shooter. You can't just use a ballistics table and expect to be more than just sort of close.......[/QUOTE]

Absolutely correct and I agree 100%. We are definitely singing of the same page of this hymn book. And no, my comments were not directed to you at all. Interestingly, in the 30x57 thread, my intention is to have goodsteel barrel a nice old M98 action with a 26 barrel having a 16" twist. I expect to get very good usable accuracy at 2700 - 2800+ fps with the LBT 150 SP or the 311466 using that cartridge. My use for it will be rock chucks, coyote and antelope out to 400+ yards. The combination of a know zero, a scope with repeatable elevation adjustment and range finders does lead to more hits, especially 1st shot hits.

Thanks for the enjoyable discussion.:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

You are quite the card Larry, and your lack of comprehension is astounding. You need to read the above till you understand it. There is quite a difference in meaning between the words "the" and "any" in the context of the above statements.

Yup, sure does depend on what the definition of "is" is...........perhaps you studied English in England with Bill?

Would be better if we got some concrete cast bullet information out of you that is pertinent to this thread. Perhaps you'll tell us the EXACT rifle(s)/scope/loads you use for such along with the chronographed velocity of said load(s)
? Maybe even post some groups (preferably 10 shot but 5 would be better than the usual nothing) you've shot with such at 100 and 200 yards or maybe even 500 - 800 yards? A contribution would be much appreciated by everyone.

Larry Gibson

[jimwill48]

Where do you buy the Sabot's? I have not seen them for sale and are they available in other calibers than .30, such as .270, 7mm?

[swheeler]

Where do you buy the Sabot's? I have not seen them for sale and are they available in other calibers than .30, such as .270, 7mm?

The ones I bought were from J&D Components out of Utah(Provo IIRC) Don't know if they are still in business or not that was 20 years ago. I bought their seater tool with the sabots and at that time they offered 22/30 cal, they were a med grey in color.

[Larry Gibson]

geargnasher

I think you are right, I should "give it up".....at least with the Palma rifle with 14" twist anyways.

I'm shooting the 311466 at 2600 fps with 1 1/2 moa accuracy to 300 yards (haven't tested it farther yet is all). And today I shot this 10 shot group with a NOW 311465 cast of just plain old linotype with 20 % lead added and AC'd & aged 10 days. Plain old NRA 50/50 lube and sized at a generic .311 and GC'd with Hornady GCs. No weight sorting just a good visual inspection for any flaw.

The 10 shots goes into 1.9" at 100 yards but then that is a sufficient sample size to base realistic accuracy on. I suppose had I just selected 3 shots and they happened to be that 3 shot cluster (that would be "random selection" of an insufficient sample from a lot) I could really write home to you, 45 2.1 and an unmentionable.......

Would that "random selection" have just been luck? Look close and you will see there are 7 such 3 shot groups that are sub moa. There are also five shot groups that are moa or better. Not "luck" at all, the odds are there. That's why we need to shoot groups of sufficient sample size.

Probably time to quit working up HV accurate loads as I already have them. Time to load some up and go shooting. Note also the 7 centered shots clustered 2" high (POA was bottom of the diamond) are in 1.2". So I'm going to head your advise and "give it up" and go kill some rocks way out yonder.........

Larry Gibson

Oh!!! I almost forgot to mention (how silly of me:groner:; the velocity was 2754 fps at 15' from the muzzle. Can you show us anything with that accuracy using regular cast bullets at that velocity out of any of your 10" twist 30-30s, .308s, the 30x57 or 30-06s?

Larry Gibson

92585

[swheeler]

2754 fps , not bad. You could cut those 3 touching out with scissors and post as a 10 shot group, oops wrong state:) Very good Larry, carry on.

[Loudenboomer]

Many years ago as a kid in JR High school shop class we used to injection mold checkers. (The board game kind) I wonder if a good quality High speed sabot could be made on simple injection mold machine?

[35 shooter]

That's starting the New Year out right. Good shooting at 2700 plus. Makin my whelen jealous.

[dtknowles]

Where do you buy the Sabot's? I have not seen them for sale and are they available in other calibers than .30, such as .270, 7mm?

There is a seller here:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=384729917

You could do your own search on gunbroker and probably find more.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Many years ago as a kid in JR High school shop class we used to injection mold checkers. (The board game kind) I wonder if a good quality High speed sabot could be made on simple injection mold machine?

I am sure they are made that way, you just need to use the right plastic.

Tim

[madsenshooter]

Wheeeeew, red ones! Prettier than my grey ones, must have some, wait, I no longer have a .22 mold. Drat!

[dtknowles]

I test somemore yesterday. The sabot rounds actually shot better than my 180 gr. RNSP and my 168 gr. BTHPs. The gun is a Ruger 77 mkII and is stock, not changes to bedding all I have done is mounted the scope, actually a second scope, the reticle on the first scope came loose. I have fired 600 to 700 rounds thru it mostly Milsurp 30-06 from some place in Europe. I originally I thought the so so accuracy was the milsurp ammo but I diegress

The sabot rounds shot under 1.5" 5 shot groups at 100 yards, sorry Larry, can't seem to make myself shoot 10 shot groups, I only loaded 20 rounds and I like to shoot a fowling shot/sighter or two. If I superimpose the 5 shot groups I get 10 shot groups under 2". I increased my powder charge a half a grain but my velocity dropped a tiny bit, just under 3700 fps. I was 30 degrees colder yesterday compared to my last test session so I am attributing the velocity drop to the temperature.

I was really disappointed in my other loads, I don't know whether to work on the bedding of the action or try different powders/charges. I don't care how light a bolt gun it is it should shoot better than 2 MOA.

Tim

[Bad Water Bill]

After countless hours of diligent searching in -90C temp and 120 mph winds I can now provide my fellow researchers with a source of quality sabots.

MUZZLELOAD MAGNUM PRODUCTS
518 BUCK HOLLOW LANE
HARRISON,ARKANSAS 72601
(870)741-5019

And if you still need more help

http://mmpsabots.com/

Now if I suddenly vanish for a month or so you will know this info made someone :evil:

They are great folks to deal with and their product works great in my Savag 10 ML.

Who knows, a couple phone call to them mentioning CASTBOOLITS may result in a NEW sponsor:drinks:

[swheeler]

http://jdcomponents.com/index.html A quick search shows these guys are still in business