Belgian Hi-Power, with a stupid feature.

[Changeling]

Quite some time ago I purchased a Browning Belgian made Hi-Power, in practically like new condition (actually I bought 2 at the same time). I sold one that shot awesome and kept the other one.

However I pulled it out the other day and decided it has a safety feature that I just plain hate!

There is some kind of safety mechanism on it that is a "Royal PITA"! A friend told me there is a way to disconnect the feature and to have it looked into.
I know very little about semi auto pistols.

Can someone tell me how to disconnect this dam thing and what will I have left, I don't want to distroy anything because this pistol is in awesome condition.
I wouldn't want to hurt it's true value because of it's condition.

[uscra112]

Ah, so just what is the safety feature that you don't like?

[Fire_Medic]

Here you go brother:

http://230grain.com/showthread.php?1521-How-to-get-rid-of-the-Hi-Power-Magazine-Disconnect-(lots-of-pics)

[fishhawk]

Probably the magazine disconnect

[Fire_Medic]

Probably the magazine disconnect

Yup, that's what he's referring to…...

[fishhawk]

It can be removed but it sure doesn't help the trigger pull any

[Fire_Medic]

It can be removed but it sure doesn't help the trigger pull any

No it doesn't lol……….

[JHeath]

It can be removed but it sure doesn't help the trigger pull any

Removing the mag safety on my Belgian Hi Power took much of the gritting feeling out of the trigger. It still needed a trigger job. Some guys leave the mag safety but polish the spot on the front of the magazine where the safety rubs.

I agree mag safeties are a pain. I invariably open the slide after removing the mag, then am stuck with a cocked pistol.

I sold mine to a relative so was okay passing it along without the mag safety. The parts were long-gone.

There is a chance some half-educated person will later remove the mag and figure it can't go off even with a round in the chamber. I worry about this about as much as I worry that selling a car with a GPS will result in the next owner taking a nap while driving since the car can navigate itself down the road. I can't save 'em all.

[bruce drake]

It doesn't make a noticeable difference in trigger pull but it sure helps when you are practicing your dry firing in the evening.

[roysha]

Whoever designed the magazine safety should have their tallywacker put in an M-1 and have the bolt released then made to run a couple hundred yards. Stupidest idea that I can think of at the moment. I'll take a one shooter over a no shooter everytime, meaning at least a shot could be fired single loaded versus throwing the gun.

[Reverend Al]

I used to shoot Browning Hi-Powers when I started shooting IPSC years ago and owned 3 of them. Eliminating the magazine safety is an easy job and I found that it usually lightened the trigger pulls somewhat.
Pull the slide / barrel assembly from the frame and then take a proper fitting pin punch and drift the pin out of the trigger. (They are sometimes a pretty tight fit and might take some effort to punch them out.) Put the frame assembly into a clear plastic baggie (you don't want to lose the parts when they "jump" out of the gun!) and with your hands inside the baggie with the frame pull the trigger to the rear of the trigger guard and hold it there. This will lift the trigger "finger" up in it's machined slot in the frame. With your other hand press the trigger "finger" up and out of it's slot and the magazine plunger and spring will "pop" out into the inside of the magazine well (and be caught inside the clear plastic baggie so that you don't lose them!). Put the trigger pin, the magazine plunger and spring into a small ziplock baggie and mark them for identification for future reference. Now lift the trigger "finger" back into it's slot in the frame and re-install the slide assembly onto the frame. Try the trigger now to see how much it has improved (mine generally got a little bit better with the magazine disconnect removed) and you'll now you'll also find that your magazines fall free of the gun without sticking in the magazine well and the hammer will drop and fire a chambered cartridge without a magazine in the magazine well.
Voila!
:Fire:

[Love Life]

Whoever designed the magazine safety should have their tallywacker put in an M-1 and have the bolt released then made to run a couple hundred yards. Stupidest idea that I can think of at the moment. I'll take a one shooter over a no shooter everytime, meaning at least a shot could be fired single loaded versus throwing the gun.

The gospel.

[Petrol & Powder]

I believe the French government requested the magazine safety from FN. Magazine safeties are common in European pistols. Apparently, the fact that a loaded round remains in the chamber when one removes the magazine, is a concept too difficult for the French to grasp. :wink:

[seagiant]

Hi,
Pulling the mag safety won't make it smoother??? You guys better change religions,praying at the wrong alter! Pulling the mag safety is the FIRST thing you do heading for a better trigger! Next is to clean the sear with a stoning jig and put in a breakaway angle, cut down hammer shelf (hooks) to get rid of creep, just like on a 1911 trigger.

Remember the "High Power" was built as a military weapon and has proven its self in more wars and conflicts than I can remember!:grin:

[Fire_Medic]

Hi,
Pulling the mag safety won't make it smoother??? You guys better change religions,praying at the wrong alter! Pulling the mag safety is the FIRST thing you do heading for a better trigger! Next is to clean the sear with a stoning jig and put in a breakaway angle just like on a 1911 trigger.

Remember the "High Power" was built as a military weapon and has proven its self in more wars and conflicts than I can remember!:grin:

Not to argue sir, but smoother is very subject, and what we were saying was that pulling the mag safety in itself is not a trigger job. However the rest of what you suggest of course will. A lot of folks are under the impression that just removing the mag safety gives you some magical 1911 type trigger and IMHO that couldn't be further from the truth. That step is "part" of getting a better trigger, but in of itself not the answer.

Just my $0.02
Gabe

[seagiant]

Not to argue sir, but smoother is very subject, and what we were saying was that pulling the mag safety in itself is not a trigger job. However the rest of what you suggest of course will. A lot of folks are under the impression that just removing the mag safety gives you some magical 1911 type trigger and IMHO that couldn't be further from the truth. That step is "part" of getting a better trigger, but in of itself not the answer.
Just my $0.02
Gabe

Hi,
THAT is correct! The trigger on a High Power can be a fantastic thing if done with the right tools with the right knowledge!

[Fire_Medic]

Hi,
THAT is correct! The trigger on a High Power can be a fantastic thing if done with the right tools with the right knowledge!

When people ask me about a 9MM 1911 I just tell them to get a BHP. :drinks:

[Petrol & Powder]

I had a couple of Hi-powers and I agree that in order to improve the trigger pull, the first step is to remove the mag safety.
The trigger on a Hi-power can be improved but there are a lot of moving parts and changes of force vectors in that trigger system. A trigger job on a Hi-power is a bit of an exercise in building upon the collective reduction of unwanted friction.
And Yes, the Hi-power has proven itself very well all over the world.

[nicholst55]

It can be removed but it sure doesn't help the trigger pull any

It made an absolutely incredible difference on my Belgian HP! I seriously thought that either the sear pin was bent or the sear was badly damaged, so I borke the gun down and found absolutely no damage. I removed the magazine disconnect, and thought I had picked up a different gun when I tried the trigger after reassembly!

[seagiant]

Hi,
Here are 1 of my 2 Power's jigs I use for doing trigger jobs. Of course the Hammer,sear and trigger are worked on!

[scattershot]

I beg to disagree about the mag safety. It's easily removed and has improved the trigger on every one I've done. (About four, at last count)

[JHeath]

I took my Belgian HP to the range before removing the mag safety. My shooting was barely ok, out of practice. I handed the HP to a range attendant who constantly shoots a lot of different pistols. He shot the center out of a target, and handed it back saying, "That trigger is a bear, but the gun will shoot!"

[samwithacolt]

+1 on removing the mag safety, I did one years ago and it made a huge difference.
If you look at the shiny square on the front of the mag, that's what your grinding on every time you pull the trigger.

[MtGun44]

Actually, in my experience, pulling the mag disconn on a HP helps the trigger a great
deal. Easy and reversible. Now- whether removing safety devices is a good idea
in our litigious society. . . . . . . whole 'nother subject.

Bill

[seagiant]

Actually, in my experience, pulling the mag disconn on a HP helps the trigger a great
deal. Easy and reversible. Now- whether removing safety devices is a good idea
in our litigious society. . . . . . . whole 'nother subject.

Bill

Hi Bill,
Point taken,BUT I think the bigger question would be ,were you justified when you started shooting! Whether your pistol works with or without a mag installed,would be at the bottom of the list! Of course as we have seen,anything is possible in a courtroom!

[220swiftfn]

If I remember right (not a sure thing these days) pulling the mag disconnect (I REFUSE to call it a "safety") lowered the pull weight on my Izzy by only 4 ounces or so. However, I was *completely* surprized when I weighed it, it "felt" MUCH better than the weight would indicate (it felt like a five pound trigger, when it was in fact, seven.) Nice and smooth.


Just be aware that if you remove the mag disconnect, depending on which trigger spring you have, you might lose trigger reset as well (and if you do, get the Wolff spring to solve the problem.)


Dan

[rintinglen]

Next time you are feeling all macho and just have to pull a magazine safety out, consider Aubrey Peters.
Or Jack Scott's son.
Or Colin Lowery.
or William Michael Clarence Evans
Nearly half of the bad gun laws we have here in California stem from the energetic efforts of Jack Scott, a former State Senator whose son was killed when a "Friend" dropped a mag and pulled a trigger.
Aubrey Peters was instrumental in saving the lives of two children who fell through the ice a few years back. She died when a 20 year old Idiot dropped a magazine, pointed the gun at her and pulled the trigger.
Magazine safeties save lives. A "better" trigger isn't worth it.

[dmize]

I also know of a police officer who was saved by the mag disconnect on his 5906. He was taking a beating,bad guy got the Smith out of his holster and in the struggle,he knew he was going to loose,he intentionally hit the release.
He told me that for a long time when he tried to go to sleep he could still hear CLICK,CLICK,CLICK,CLICK.
They may be a bit aggravating but they do serve a purpose at times.

[winelover]

I had Master Pistol-smith Frank Paris of Redford, Michigan remove the magazine disconnect from my Belgium HP. When I got the gun back, the trigger was like night and day. Don't know, for sure, if he did anything else but I wasn't charged for a custom trigger job.

Magazine disconnects are found on some guns and absent on others. Beretta Nano, Ruger Mark II, Armalite AR-10 are a few semi-autos that come to mind. I prefer mine, without. All guns should be considered loaded anyways.

Winelover

[Fire_Medic]

Next time you are feeling all macho and just have to pull a magazine safety out, consider Aubrey Peters.
Or Jack Scott's son.
Or Colin Lowery.
or William Michael Clarence Evans
Nearly half of the bad gun laws we have here in California stem from the energetic efforts of Jack Scott, a former State Senator whose son was killed when a "Friend" dropped a mag and pulled a trigger.
Aubrey Peters was instrumental in saving the lives of two children who fell through the ice a few years back. She died when a 20 year old Idiot dropped a magazine, pointed the gun at her and pulled the trigger.
Magazine safeties save lives. A "better" trigger isn't worth it.

I'm going to try and be as considerate here as I can with my response, and this is just my opinion and we're all entitled to our own. I am very sorry that anyone lost their lives in any of those situations, plus anyone else who has tragically lost their life due to negligence on behalf of someone doing something STUPID with a firearm.

That being said, number one, the BHP has a manual safety.

Furthermore, you can't blame the gun in any of those instances, another PERSON had control of those weapons and was not following Mr. Coopers firearms safety rules. If those rules are being followed, no one gets hurt. I'd be damned if someone in my home, friend or not, is going to point a firearm at myself, my wife, or one of my daughters, regardless of whether or not they "think" it's empty. And they definitely, will NOT be handling and pointing one of my own firearms in that manner.

I'm not here to argue politics, or talk about the crappy laws in your state, but when bomber kills people we don't blame the bomb right? If some sick bastard rapes someone he doesn't walk free and his penis goes to jail……….? But when something like those examples happens, people want to blame the gun? I just don't get it……..

Your first safety is between your ears, and then we have the standard rules of firearms safety. Until the day this culture of ours (as a whole, general population I'm referring to here) starts to take responsibility for their actions, this mindset of blaming guns for accidents will not change. If you own firearm, it's your responsibility to educate yourself on it, it's use, and how to be SAFE with it. Same goes for everyone in your home. It's also your responsibility when someone else has YOUR gun in their hands in a manner whether intentionally or not they're pointing it at someone else.

I worked behind the counter for two years, and have thrown sworn LEO out of the shop for having guns pointed at me, and more often than not the gun was loaded. Safety rules are safety rules, and as young as I am this is how I was taught, and I have OCD about it. But I'd rather be made fun of for being "overboard" with safety (also the fireman in me) than have to put a funeral together because someone in my home was hurt over negligence or moreover stupidity with a firearm.

We got a shipment from Beretta once, boat load of 92FS pistols, and I cleared THREE weapons that had a loaded round in the chamber. Someone was asleep at the factory that day. I do no leave it to anyone to tell me a firearm is clear, it's not freaking clear until I verify myself, by making sure there's no mag, the slide is locked back, looking in the chamber, and feeling in the chamber, period.

I apologize for my rant, but that's my $0.02

[scattershot]

I'll have to agree with that assessment. Idiots are the problem here, not mag disconnects.

[Big Rack]

I have a late model Belgium High Power it has a SFS safety on it after you chamber a round you push the hammer forward which makes the safety lever pop up it also locks the slide and trigger, to deactivate it push the safety lever down and the hammer pops back. I don't know if they still carry it but Cylinder Lock & Slide (think that's the name it's owned by Bill Laugridge?) sells them for 1911's.
Mine is .40 S&W polished blue and the three supplied mags have a small wire spring at the base to eject the mag.

[roysha]

Fire Medic. VERY WELL SAID! I agree 100%.

[Char-Gar]

The Browning Hi-Power is an elegant and accurate pistol. No other autopistol feels as well in my and and shoots as well for me. They do use a less powerful round (9mm or 40 SW) and are somewhat more fragile than the 1911. Don't let the "somewhat" throw you, for they are very reliable, but when compared with the 1911 need more maintenance as the round count builds way up.

Until the advent of the Glock in the mid-80's, the Browning HP was the most common military pistol in the world.

Removing the magazine disconnect will not lighten the trigger pull, but it will take out the grit and give it a crisp albeit heavy trigger pull. As Seagiant said, a wonderful trigger pull can be put on the GP, but that require some knowledge and skill. Here is my favorite HP.

Over the years, my thinking has changed somewhat about trigger pulls. A light and crisp trigger pull makes shooting with accuracy quite easy. But, it can lead to sloppy habits. A heavier trigger pull make you concentrate on the basics like grip, trigger finger isolation, breath control and so forth. A heavier crisp pull can be a help in keeping you doing things right. Of course there is a point, where the trigger pull get heavy enough to be unmanageable and fine shooting goes out the window.

I am of the opinion that 99.9% of life is a head game and that includes pistol shooting. The other .1% is luck of the draw and/or being at the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time. What ever it takes to keep our brain aligned with the cosmos is what we should do. If we practice critical thinking on a regular basis, we don't need laws to protect us from ourselves or some other form of idiot.

For grins, here is the same Browning HP in a left handed, carved holster by A.W. Brill of Austin Texas who made leather for Texas Rangers and other lawmen in the 30's, 40's and 50's. These are hard to find.

[Fire_Medic]

Char-Gar, that os a beautiful BHP.

Here's my circa 1971 piece that my father in law left me and my wife:

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k366/ffgabe/Toys/BHP.jpg

[Char-Gar]

Fire Medic... That is a great HP for several reasons. When there is a family connection that always add much value to owning such a gun.

I fired my first HP in 1964. It was a current (then) production pistol and the ammo was Winchester military black bullet ammo in a white box labeled "For Sub-Machine Gun Use Only". It shot wonderful and I have liked the HP ever after. I have had a half dozen over the years, but never could seem to hold on to one. About ten years ago as retirement was looming, I started selling and trading duplicate pistols, so I could restock the safe with what I wanted in my "golden years". The Browning HP was on the list. I went into a gun store in Corpus Christi, Texas and the owner had some kind of big payment due and needed money that day. He sold me the above pictured Browning and a Colt GM for what he paid for them to get some cash. I had to promise I would not tell who the dealer was or what I paid for them, but the price was sweet as are both handguns.

[Fire_Medic]

Fire Medic... That is a great HP for several reasons. When there is a family connection that always add much value to owning such a gun.

I fired my first HP in 1964. It was a current (then) production pistol and the ammo was Winchester military black bullet ammo in a white box labeled "For Sub-Machine Gun Use Only". It shot wonderful and I have liked the HP ever after. I have had a half dozen over the years, but never could seem to hold on to one. About ten years ago as retirement was looming, I started selling and trading duplicate pistols, so I could restock the safe with what I wanted in my "golden years". The Browning HP was on the list. I went into a gun store in Corpus Christi, Texas and the owner had some kind of big payment due and needed money that day. He sold me the above pictured Browning and a Colt GM for what he paid for them to get some cash. I had to promise I would not tell who the dealer was or what I paid for them, but the price was sweet as are both handguns.

That is a great story my friend.

I am teetering with whether or not to send my HP to C&S for some upgrades and a refinish. I was against doing anything to it at first, but the bluing is wearing in several places and it won't be too long before the threat of rust becomes a real issue. Since it was a shooter pistol for him, he carried it, I now figure why not give it my own modern touches. Nothing major but it could use a set of Novak sights, better safety and take down lever a trigger job and refinish. So we will see. My wife is finally on board with this idea…...

[seagiant]

Hi,
Here is a FEG direct clone of BHP. Bill Laughridge (sp) uses these to make defense pistols and I would trust this one and look for deals on the FEG's wherever I go. I put Novak sights on this one,straightened the trigger, polished feed ramp. went to a BHP extractor,intsalled BHP OEM ambi safety (I'm a lefty) and put on a pair of Spegal Ebony grips. I also did a 4.5lb trigger job,as I do not care for light triggers on defense pistols. However remember that SMOOTH fixes alot and that can only be done IMO with a good jig that keeps everything straight and true! I'm thinkinh to eventually have this pistol brushed nickeled for CCW!

Char-Gar, if you ever want to sale that holster let me know! Your pistol is very nice, but the holster is unobtainable!

[EMC45]

I like the mag safety undone. I have had 2 HPs and an FEG PJK. All have had the mag safety disconnected. All 3 are/were shooters.

[M-Tecs]

Next time you are feeling all macho and just have to pull a magazine safety out, consider Aubrey Peters.
Or Jack Scott's son.
Or Colin Lowery.
or William Michael Clarence Evans
Nearly half of the bad gun laws we have here in California stem from the energetic efforts of Jack Scott, a former State Senator whose son was killed when a "Friend" dropped a mag and pulled a trigger.
Aubrey Peters was instrumental in saving the lives of two children who fell through the ice a few years back. She died when a 20 year old Idiot dropped a magazine, pointed the gun at her and pulled the trigger.
Magazine safeties save lives. A "better" trigger isn't worth it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Scott_(politician)
"Scott is very active in gun control. He began his gun control efforts after his son Adam was fatally shot. His son Adam, an attorney who had recently graduated from USC Law School, was at a party with friends and one of his friends had a shotgun, which he did not know was loaded. His friend discharged the shotgun, hitting Adam and killing him."

http://www.gunnews.com/hero-shot-killed-aubrey-peters/

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/dec/23/jefferson-county-man-killed-accidental-shooting-un/

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/colin-lowrey-nev-man-kills-woman-while-playing-with-gun-tells-cops-he-didnt-think-it-was-loaded/

Ignorance and lack of training killed these people. None of my firearms has or will ever have a magazine disconnect. This is not nor will it ever be a problem since I will never point a firearm at someone and pull the trigger to prove that it's not loaded.

[Char-Gar]

Seagiant.... Rob Leahy the heap high honcho on Simply Rugged Holster in Prescott AZ knows I am left handed and have a weakness for Brownings HPs, when he snagged this Brill he passed it on to me. It will stay with me...

Brill holsters are much in demand by folks who collect vintage gunleather and Texana in general. They are quite rare and when you see one, they are either for the 1911 or a sixgun. Finding a left handed one for the Browning is very rare indeed.

[Char-Gar]

That is a great story my friend.

I am teetering with whether or not to send my HP to C&S for some upgrades and a refinish. I was against doing anything to it at first, but the bluing is wearing in several places and it won't be too long before the threat of rust becomes a real issue. Since it was a shooter pistol for him, he carried it, I now figure why not give it my own modern touches. Nothing major but it could use a set of Novak sights, better safety and take down lever a trigger job and refinish. So we will see. My wife is finally on board with this idea…...

For quality work on Hi-Powers check out Alex Hamilton (10 Ring Precision) in San Antonio. I have great confidence in his work.

[Fire_Medic]

For quality work on Hi-Powers check out Alex Hamilton (10 Ring Precision) in San Antonio. I have great confidence in his work.

Ok I will look him up.

Thanks
Gabe

[Multigunner]

My opinion on this subject is that one should never remove a safety feature unless they can prominently mark the firearm in some way so that a future user will know at a glance that the pistol no longer has that feature.

Some of the FN Hipowers made under NAZI occupation were made without the magazine disconnect, to reduce time and cost of production, not because they felt it to be an improvement.

None of the HiPowers with the disconnect that I've fired had anything like a bad trigger. The triggers were all stock and much better than most milspec triggers.
All had several thousands of rounds through them, except for the first one I got which was in practically unfired condition.
The trigger wasn't bad, but I sweetened it a bit by applying gunslick black grease with the micro polishing compound, cycled and dry fired the recommended six times, then cleaned away all residue and greased normally. That pistol was slick as owl (blank).
I used the same stuff on my S&W 59, which was a bit on the rough side, and greatly improved its cycling and slightly improved its still lousy and mushy though no longer gritty trigger.

If you can find the stuff a tiny tube will last for decades. You only use it once on any firearm, only dry fire never when live firing, and you must remove every trace of it or it will cause accelerated wear of moving parts.

[Unforgiven]

I bought a FEG HP a few months ago. It had the second worst trigger pull I've ever felt on any pistol, behind the Nagant revolver. The HP trigger actually made a creaking noise like a rusty screen door hinge. I tried measuring the trigger pull, but it was off the 12 pound scale. I popped the mag safety out and now it has a decent 4.5 pound pull. Much better without it!

[Char-Gar]

A Browning HP with the magazine disconnector removed can be spotted at a glance. There is a little hole on rear of the trigger when the pin that held the gizmo in once lived. Witnesseth herein below;

[JHeath]

My opinion on this subject is that one should never remove a safety feature unless they can prominently mark the firearm in some way so that a future user will know at a glance that the pistol no longer has that feature.



That's a valid perspective, but how do you mark it? I was not going to permanently stamp a warning on my Hi Power, because of a 50/50 chance the disconnect would be re-installed some day.

Future owners assume some risk, like if I buy e.g. an Arisaka rechambered to 6.5- 257. You say the Arisaka should be marked because that was a permanent change? Exactly! and the mag disconnect is not. And if I split cases with the Arisaka because I didn't check it, most would consider it's my fault, not blame some home smith from 1952.

Arguments against removing HP disconnects are founded on the idea that somebody will recognize the model and assume it has a mag disconnect. Anybody gun-savvy enough to know that an HP is supposed to have a mag disconnect, should be gun-savvy enough to know better than to drop the mag and not clear the chamber.

And anybody gun-ignorant enough to drop a mag and not clear the chamber, presumably does not have a mental catalogue of pistols built with/without mag disconnects, so has no reasonable expectation that any given pistol has one.

It's too late to change the world's mind on this, but the above is a reason to not lard mag disconnects on pistols. It simply confuses things. Half the pistols in the world have them, and half don't. The result is that ill-trained people are prevented from a certain type of accident with half the pistols they handle, and at increased risk with the other half.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Char-Gar,I removed my disconnects but always put the pin back in for looks. I also believe if you buy one of C&S"S wide BHP trigger it has no hole for the disconnect!

As has been said before,if you follow the 10 rules of gun safety (the same ones I got a copy of with my Daisey BB gun 50+ yrs. ago) it is IMPOSSIBLE to shoot someone accidently!

[MtGun44]

C&S does very good work on all guns, has done a HP for my wife. Great work.

Bill

[Fire_Medic]

C&S does very good work on all guns, has done a HP for my wife. Great work.

Bill

Thanks I will be inquiring with them in the near future.

[birch]

"Whoever designed the magazine safety should have their tallywacker put in an M-1 and have the bolt released then made to run a couple hundred yards. Stupidest idea that I can think of at the moment. I'll take a one shooter over a no shooter everytime, meaning at least a shot could be fired single loaded versus throwing the gun."

That would be John Browning!! Of all the gun designs of his entire life, he viewed the Hi-Power as his finest and best creation. That should tell everyone something.

[Petrol & Powder]

"Whoever designed the magazine safety should have their tallywacker put in an M-1 and have the bolt released then made to run a couple hundred yards. Stupidest idea that I can think of at the moment. I'll take a one shooter over a no shooter everytime, meaning at least a shot could be fired single loaded versus throwing the gun."

That would be John Browning!! Of all the gun designs of his entire life, he viewed the Hi-Power as his finest and best creation. That should tell everyone something.

Well, actually John Browning died long before the Hi-power was finished, Dieudonné Saive completed the design and FN produced it. It's hard to say if Browning, Saive or FN incorporated the magazine safety.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Actually,JMB thought his A5 shotgun was his greatest design! Remember he died before the BHP was finished and FN finished the P-35 for the contract. Also as has been said before, this was a military pistol with military ideas of the day!

[M-Tecs]

My opinion on this subject is that one should never remove a safety feature unless they can prominently mark the firearm in some way so that a future user will know at a glance that the pistol no longer has that feature.

Does that include doing a trigger job on the current lawyered up "Safety" triggers that pull ten or twelve pounds when they should be three pounds?



The trigger wasn't bad, but I sweetened it a bit by applying gunslick black grease with the micro polishing compound, cycled and dry fired the recommended six times, then cleaned away all residue and greased normally. That pistol was slick as owl (blank).
I used the same stuff on my S&W 59, which was a bit on the rough side, and greatly improved its cycling and slightly improved its still lousy and mushy though no longer gritty trigger.

If you can find the stuff a tiny tube will last for decades. You only use it once on any firearm, only dry fire never when live firing, and you must remove every trace of it or it will cause accelerated wear of moving parts.

Not according to Gunslick. http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=116028&start=15 see post by sniper5.

You can find it here http://www.gunslick.com/products/chemicals/lubricants_oils/graphitelube.aspx

I had a couple of the original tin tubes that used for revolver trigger jobs until I ran out and switched to synthetic grease about ten years ago. A couple of them have over 30K of live fire and a bunch of dry fire using only Gunslick black grease from the little tin tubes.

[MtGun44]

The mag safety was requested by the military. No question it is a dumb thing,
BUT also no question that THE MOST COMMON deadly accident with poorly trained
troops with semi-autos is pulling the slide back to 'clear the chamber' with the
mag still in, and then pulling the mag and finally - shooting someone nearby
with an 'unloaded gun'.
As much as I despise mag safeties, I do understand that if I was in charge of a
large organization with a bunch of poorly trained men that were carrying semi-auto
pistols - I'd want the stupid mag safety on the guns.

A far better solution is better training, but as a VERY pistol oriented friend of mine
(lt col in USA) pointed out - he had an armored company (or whatevery you correctly
call a large armored command) and with a shortage of training time and funds
he chose to spend it on M1A1 and M2 main gun firing rather than pistol training - and he is a
hard corps guy - many trips to Gunsite, etc. REALLY knows how to run an autopistol,
but recognizes that more skill at the primary weapon is dramatically more important
that more skill at the tertiary weapon. So - the US Army has relatively poorly trained
folks carrying handguns around - as does the military of the rest of the world.

Idiotproofing.

Bill

[220swiftfn]

Next time you are feeling all macho and just have to pull a magazine safety out, consider Aubrey Peters.
Or Jack Scott's son.
Or Colin Lowery.
or William Michael Clarence Evans
Nearly half of the bad gun laws we have here in California stem from the energetic efforts of Jack Scott, a former State Senator whose son was killed when a "Friend" dropped a mag and pulled a trigger.
Aubrey Peters was instrumental in saving the lives of two children who fell through the ice a few years back. She died when a 20 year old Idiot dropped a magazine, pointed the gun at her and pulled the trigger.
Magazine safeties save lives. A "better" trigger isn't worth it.

How about enforcing common sence instead???? In other words, if someone points a gun at someone, pulls the trigger and expects it to NOT go off, they're just an idiot.

Magazine "safeties" breed complacency, see above.

Has nothing to do with masculinity, has everything to do with the fundamentals of firearm safety.....





Sorry, rant off....


Dan

[220swiftfn]

That would be John Browning!! Of all the gun designs of his entire life, he viewed the Hi-Power as his finest and best creation. That should tell everyone something.

How could he? He was dead before it was completed.


Dan

[winelover]

More High Power Porn:


92496


Frank, also did the Hard Chrome frame when he removed the magazine disconnect. Must have reinstalled the roll pin, also. I'm a lefty, so ergo the "Cylinder & Slide" ambi-safety.
Rear sight was replaced with a Millet after the fragile original was discovered bent. Was my "bed-side gun", so put on a set of "Laser Grips".

Winelover

[birch]

He and Saive of FN put the gun together. He had prototypes. There are many books written on the FN and Browning was indeed most proud of that gun. In other words---I am not making that up!!

[Changeling]

I really appreciate you guys telling it like it is in your opinion. I can understand the majority of you really liking the BHP.

It fits my hand (medium) very well, a lot better than just about any of the known favorite semi auto's. I bought the two pistols because I could see that they were both in practically new condition and extemely well made, with a rediculious asking price for any pistol! At the time I never really new much about them other than John Browning designed them (good enough for me).
One pistol did not have the disconnect, and shot great. this is the one I sold because I received a very high price!

The other (one I have now) has the disconnect intact and is completely stock as far as I know. I have had it in my bed side drawer along with 1 other pistol (Ruger Mark 1) and 1 revolver (22 ruger Bearcat (my snake revolver)).
Whenever I sense or hear something I don't understand at night (half asleep) I always seem to reach for the Ruger Mark 1.

Except for the Mark 1, I just don't care for pistols as much as I do for revolvers. I thought if I got rid of that "Idiot Disconnect" maybe I would like it better! I am just going to have to give this some more thought before I do anything. Famous pistols in this kind of shape don't go down in price, so time is not a concern.
Besides I have been trying to find a "S&W 624" and maybe it will come in handy for some bargening.

Right now I am just in a quandry as what to do. hope you guys understand.

[Char-Gar]

Changeling... If you remove the magazine disconnect, you can put it back should you choose. So, there is no permanent change to the pistol.

[220swiftfn]

He and Saive of FN put the gun together. He had prototypes. There are many books written on the FN and Browning was indeed most proud of that gun. In other words---I am not making that up!!

I'd have to find my notes to re-familiarize myself with exactly what he left Saive with to finish, but he died what, six years before the final design was submitted??? I DO remember that the "hi-power" that Browning died with was much different than the GP35 that we know...... Besides, when have you EVER heard of a designer saying "you know what, I really think I don't like how I'm making this one......"


Dan

[JHeath]

Apparently JMB's design was striker fired. And in 1931 the earlier patents expired so Saive re-designed without restrictions that JMB had to work around. And the French army board required the mag disconnect.

It sounds like those old paintings from master's workshops. Sometimes the master sketched an idea, painted the face of one figure, then the apprentice did the entire rest of the painting. Now the art experts argue about whether to call it a "Leonardo" or "From the workshop of Leonardo" or "by an apprentice of Leonardo."

[Patrick L]

I agree that a HP is "the" 9mm o have if you are a 1911 fan. Sort of rounds out the set.

I had a 90s "Made in Belgium Assembled in Portugal" one for a few years. Sold it in a moment of weakness.

I must have had a good one. After I removed the mag disconnect (it was easy to put back in when I sold the gun)and put in a cylinder & Slide spring kit, I got a very usable 4-4.5 lb trigger. Not in the same class as a tuned 1911 to be sure, but I could never blame the trigger for my miss.

As good as the Hi Power feels with factory grips, aftermarket Spegal ultra thin wood grips made it absolutely SENSUAL. Didn't feel like a high cap gun at all, but was!

[leper65]

I believe the French government requested the magazine safety from FN. Magazine safeties are common in European pistols. Apparently, the fact that a loaded round remains in the chamber when one removes the magazine, is a concept too difficult for the French to grasp. :wink:

It probably makes the surrendering process easier somehow...

[rintinglen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Scott_(politician)
"Scott is very active in gun control. He began his gun control efforts after his son Adam was fatally shot. His son Adam, an attorney who had recently graduated from USC Law School, was at a party with friends and one of his friends had a shotgun, which he did not know was loaded. His friend discharged the shotgun, hitting Adam and killing him."

http://www.gunnews.com/hero-shot-killed-aubrey-peters/

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/dec/23/jefferson-county-man-killed-accidental-shooting-un/

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/colin-lowrey-nev-man-kills-woman-while-playing-with-gun-tells-cops-he-didnt-think-it-was-loaded/

Ignorance and lack of training killed these people. None of my firearms has or will ever have a magazine disconnect. This is not nor will it ever be a problem since I will never point a firearm at someone and pull the trigger to prove that it's not loaded.

Don't know where Wikipedia gets it's source, but published accounts at the time stated that Adam Scott was shot by a handgun which was found under the couch in the living room where the shooting took place. Adam was reportedly 20 at the time, which would make him a very young graduate of law school.

It is not the people on this board that really are the concern. But we are not immortal. The guns we leave behind when we depart will end up somewhere else. We can not guarantee that they will have the same level of training, knowledge, experience and technical information.

[roysha]

That would be John Browning!! Of all the gun designs of his entire life, he viewed the Hi-Power as his finest and best creation[/B]. That should tell everyone something.

Yes indeed. That would tell me that even the most brilliant of us can do something STUPID on occasion, such as the magazine "safety" feature!

[M-Tecs]

Don't know where Wikipedia gets it's source, but published accounts at the time stated that Adam Scott was shot by a handgun which was found under the couch in the living room where the shooting took place. Adam was reportedly 20 at the time, which would make him a very young graduate of law school.

It is not the people on this board that really are the concern. But we are not immortal. The guns we leave behind when we depart will end up somewhere else. We can not guarantee that they will have the same level of training, knowledge, experience and technical information.

From LA Times October 24, 1993

http://articles.latimes.com/keyword/jack-scott/featured/2

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-10-24/local/me-49483_1_jack-scott

All mechanical items are subject to failure. Depending on a magazine disconnect is a very bad idea. Any firearm handling technique that doesn’t take this into account is destined for failure.

If you don’t want to shoot it don’t point a gun at it and pull the trigger!!!!

No higher level of training, knowledge, experience or technical information required other than the above statement for safe firearm handling.