Accuracy expectation?

[XBT]

I’ve shot open sighted revolvers for many years but due to old eyes I am now starting to play with scoped revolvers and am wondering about accuracy. The only revolver I have scoped right now is a S & W M-629 and it is shooting twelve shot groups at fifty yards of around six to seven inches. Factory loads are grouping even worse. This is not acceptable accuracy for me and I am considering a different gun.

With an off the shelf Ruger Redhawk or Super Blackhawk equipped with either a quality 2X or red dot scope and shooting good quality cast boolits from a solid sandbag rest, what sort of twelve shot groups at fifty yards should I expect?

Thanks, Jim

[HABCAN]

Just a question, because I had a similar experience years ago.

Are you making SURE the crosshairs are viewed from the SAME position each time? You have to check that they appear in the center of the field-of-view, else you get shots landing where you did not expect them. This with a Leupold 1.5X pistol scope.

When a more-experienced scope shooter pointed that out to me, I realized that parallax had entered the equation and once removed, groups shrank back to expectations.

[XBT]

Yup, I am shooting very carefully from a sandbagged bench. I have tried both a 2X scope and a red dot on the gun with the same results.

The red dot scope was previously on a Ruger Government Target model and it would shoot ten shot groups under two inches at fifty yards every time.

[44man]

Your problem is not the gun but load work. I have never owned a S&W 29 or other number that would not do 1/2" at 50 meters. It is not easy and takes work but the revolvers are accurate. If you get rid of it for another gun, you will also be unhappy. You must study this site for what you need to do.

[Woodwrkr]

Some years ago I owned a Ruger Redhawk .44 Mag. with factory scope rings and a Leuopold pistol scope that would reliably give 3.5" groups at 100 yds with factory JHP's (from a sandbag rest, I'm certainly not good enough to do that off hand).

I've never owned a S&W 29 or 629 but I would be disappointed if it wouldn't give similar results.

[shotstring]

XBT, forgive me for asking this question, but have you done much work with a 44 mag before? The only reason I ask is that there are definitely some subtle flinch potential for even seasoned shooters if they aren't used to the pounding they get from factory loads.

I would have to agree with 44man in that S & W revolvers just don't shoot bad enough to create the groups you described. Now some are decidedly better shooters than others - I have had one S & W snub 38 that would shoot 1" groups at 25 yards all day - but all should shoot well under 3" at the range you were testing at without even working on developing loads to find the guns true potential.

[XBT]

Shotstring,
That is a completely legitimate question. The heavy recoiling revolvers do require some experience to shoot well. In my case I have been shooting for many years and am confident that the shooter is not the problem. In .44 cal. I currently have a M-629, a M-29 and a Ruger Super Blackhawk.

With my old eyes I can’t shoot any open sights very well and recently decided to try a scope. To my surprise it didn’t help my groups at all. I expected to get groups of four inches or less at fifty yards, but it didn’t happen.

I am an experienced reloader and caster. The load is a moderate ten grains of Unique with a 250 grn. SWC from a RCBS mold. The boolits measure .430 as dropped and are run through a .431 die to lube with NRA formula 50/50 lube. I have also tried loads of 2400, which group about the same. Factory loads group worse.

I have looked the 629 over carefully and see no problems, but I still suspect it is the gun at fault. As near as I can measure the cylinder mouths are a consistent .432 and the barrel is .429 with no tight spots.

I am still wondering if a stock Super Blackhawk or Redhawk would give me the four-inch (or better) groups I want for a hunting gun.

[dubber123]

Shotstring,
That is a completely legitimate question. The heavy recoiling revolvers do require some experience to shoot well. In my case I have been shooting for many years and am confident that the shooter is not the problem. In .44 cal. I currently have a M-629, a M-29 and a Ruger Super Blackhawk.

With my old eyes I can’t shoot any open sights very well and recently decided to try a scope. To my surprise it didn’t help my groups at all. I expected to get groups of four inches or less at fifty yards, but it didn’t happen.

I am an experienced reloader and caster. The load is a moderate ten grains of Unique with a 250 grn. SWC from a RCBS mold. The boolits measure .430 as dropped and are run through a .431 die to lube with NRA formula 50/50 lube. I have also tried loads of 2400, which group about the same. Factory loads group worse.

I have looked the 629 over carefully and see no problems, but I still suspect it is the gun at fault. As near as I can measure the cylinder mouths are a consistent .432 and the barrel is .429 with no tight spots.

I am still wondering if a stock Super Blackhawk or Redhawk would give me the four-inch (or better) groups I want for a hunting gun.

Have you tried any hotter loads in the Smith? I have not had much success with light or midrange loads in many guns. There are exceptions, but my S&W's have always shot best with hotter handloads. My bench at home stays at 50 yards pretty much constantly. Getting closer to your cylinder throat diameter would be a good idea in my opinion, .002" under is a bit loose. Let me know if you would like to try some fatter boolits. I have several moulds that cast at .432" or larger.

[Lloyd Smale]

the 250 rcbs has been a good bullet for me but having said that ive got 44s that dont shoot it well. There is no majic bullet that shoots good in every gun especially if youve only tried two powders. I sometimes will experiment with up to 10 different bullets and 5 different powders and 2 or 3 different primers just to get a certain weight bullet to shoot at a velocity i want to use and if you want to step up in bullet weight or velocity you need to start all over. To find a one inch 50 yard grouping load takes alot of load developement time and its not something you likely to hit on in your first couple trys. Lots of other things come into play like bullet size. For one like you found out that rcbs mold drops a little on the small side and it isnt going to do extreamly well out of a gun with .432 throats. Alloy is another big variable both the hardness and the weight changes by changing alloys can make a big differnce in the way a gun will shoot. Even things like changing bullet lube will change things. Another thing that effects accuracy in a big way in a handgun is bullet pull. If your not using a strong enough crimp or your die is opening the case up to much or even if your using old tired brass, bullet pull can really play havok with accuracy.

[twotrees]

I put a "No-Gunsmith" mount on my Ruger and it went from a solid 2.5" shooter to a 6"shooter (at50 yards) with the same load. I tried everything then pulled the mount and did the 45 slide trick on the fornt claws. Squeezed the fornt claws until they were tight then remounted the screws with lock tite. Then it would again group 2-2.5 ' at 50.

The other thing that I found was to NOT use a hard sand bag under the rear grip. the gun would jump and the boolits would land about where They wanted, not where I wanted.

I use a front rest under the trigger guard that is filled with kitty litter and it shoots from the rest to same point of aim as it does when I hand hold it.

Load RCBS 240 gr Keith boolit Lyman #2 alloy lubed with Lyman Orange lube. 21 gr of "old" 2400.

Good Shooting,

TwoTrees

[XBT]

Well, the general consensus here seems to be that the gun will group if I hit on the right combination. I will try some of the ideas here and give the Smith another chance.

Thanks for the good advice, Jim

[MtGun44]

I think at least some of your problem is the .432 throats and .430 bullets.
See if you can't get some .432 or even .433 boolits to try. The 10.0 Unique
with a proper bullet diam and SOFT enough should be very accurate.

How hard are your boolits? Too hard and too small are common accy problems.
Hard bullets loose in the throat with moderate loads will not bump up and
may be permanently tipped in the throats, with predictable results.

My 629 6.5" powerport (S&W factory comp) will do 2" at 50 yds with 429421
and 20.0 2400 with 2x Nikon.

Also - what scope? I have been getting better groups as I slowly learned that
most of my inexpensive scopes were costing me accuracy, presumably by parts
moving around inside under recoil. This is mostly on rifles, but I am saving up
for better scopes, and have found that the new Simmons Master Series with
a new design which eliminates the reticle tube joint are inexpensive AND very
accurate. I consider them to be a significant breakthru in scope design.

Have you slugged the barrel, looking for a tight spot where the barrel is threaded
into the frame. A friend who is an expert on S&W accuracy says this is common
in certain decade ranges of production (70s & 80s, IIRC) due to over tightening,
and must be firelapped out or the barrel replaced with one set up properly.
All sorts of possibilities. Fun, fun fun! :-D

See my signature phrase. . . . . . .

Bill

[shotstring]

You might also be having a vision problem. I say this because as handguns demand a longer eye relief than does a rifle scope, and as peoples eyes get older, more eye factors come into play. I don't use scopes on my handguns, but I do play tournament darts, where some strange eye/vision phenomena is often seen. For example, for shooting, my right eye is my dominant eye. For darts, my left eye becomes my dominant eye, and that switch only happens when I throw darts.

You may be experienceing dominant eye resolution problems, as your eyes try to adjust to the greater distance to the scope. Your eyes may be fighting each other for dominance and so switching between right, left or even both eyes together as the dominant eye would impart different points of impact. While not the most common occurance, when this happens it can really mess with target accuracy.

For powders, I have pretty much elimated everything but 296 for my 357 and 44 mag loads, as it just seems to always work well in guns. I still have some 2400 and H110 around but don't use it much anymore, but any one of the three powders should provide good accuracy with jacketed. You might try some 296 with some jacketed rounds to see if it is cast boolit problem or something else. My two S & W mdl 27's and my 6 1/2 bbl mdl29 love the stuff!

[44man]

Very, very true, 296 is without a doubt the best powder for the S&W, Ruger SBH and SRH but H110 is better in the regular RH. Be sure to test the standard primer in the .44, I never get tight groups with mag primers. You NEED tight boolit pull and a moderate crimp. A tight crimp will not solve poor case tension.
My S&W's all shot super with .430 Hornady bullets with the same dimensions you have but cast boolits need to be throat size or no more then .0005" under.
I only use Unique for plinking, never found the long range accuracy with it. You DON'T want to use mag primers with it either.
The combination of poor case tension and a strong primer will move the boolit out of the case before the powder burns. Since none will move the same distance, groups will go to hell.
Jacketed bullets grip the case walls better then lubed cast. You want to see the grease grooves in the brass, there should be ripples in the brass where the boolit is seated. If the boolits seat real easy you will never shoot groups.
This is what you can expect with the right loading procedures. The left target is the Lee 310 and the right is my 330 gr from my SBH at 100 yd's. The low shot on the right target was my first shot from a clean barrel, the next 4 went into 1-1/4". I have since bettered this with 2 groups right at 1" but my friend had to have my targets to take to work.

[Newtire]

You may be experienceing dominant eye resolution problems, as your eyes try to adjust to the greater distance to the scope. Your eyes may be fighting each other for dominance and so switching between right, left or even both eyes together as the dominant eye would impart different points of impact. While not the most common occurance, when this happens it can really mess with target accuracy.


About 6 months ago I went in to get my eyes checked out for some soft contact lenses. I had worn the rigid ones and the hard ones since I was 16 yrs. old (I'm almost 58 now). Then when I turned 45 and had to start wearing bifocals, my shooting accuracy with pistol and shotgun would vary wildly from time to time. I was checking out my dominant eye in the doctor's office and he told me my left eye was dominant. I told him it never was before and right there in the Dr's. office I discovered it switching. The optometrist said he's never heard of that before and was trying to get me to use my left eye as my "distance" eye. I stuck to my guns and insisted on a right lense made for distance and a left one for close up instead of the opoosite way like he wanted. Obviously he didn't grasp the idea of shooting complications! At any rate, I looked up this phenomenon on the good old internet and found it to be a common occurence. I always shoot with one eye shut now and my scores have improved markedly. That funky H & R 586 target model really turned out to be a target model after all. It is a fairly common occurence they say and some shooters tape over their "non-dominant" lense on their glasses to prevent tha tfrom happening. the contacts worked out great by the way. It's great having that peripheral vision back. Just my own experience. I don't have the skill to shoot 1/2" groups like 44 man but I am getting 1" at 25 yds. and that's alot better than it was before.

[Bass Ackward]

............... and shooting good quality cast boolits from a solid sandbag rest, what sort of twelve shot groups at fifty yards should I expect? Thanks, Jim

Jim,

Lots of good advice, but the list of potential problems is longer than the advice given so far. Could be anything from a loose / bad scope to il'fitting grips. If I didn't know better, I would guess that maybe this is a new gun. Sure sounds like the ones I get. Usually takes several hundred rounds of jacketed before any grouping is possible no matter the make or model.

One things for sure, I would stay with factory ammo or jacketed until the problem's identified and corrected just to minimize possibilities. Then branch out.

[44man]

Jim,

Lots of good advice, but the list of potential problems is longer than the advice given so far. Could be anything from a loose / bad scope to il'fitting grips. If I didn't know better, I would guess that maybe this is a new gun. Sure sounds like the ones I get. Usually takes several hundred rounds of jacketed before any grouping is possible no matter the make or model.

One things for sure, I would stay with factory ammo or jacketed until the problem's identified and corrected just to minimize possibilities. Then branch out.

Very good suggestion if the gun is new. Clean out the copper often. You could also have a bad scope or base. Most of the clamp on bases are junk and I won't have anything except a drilled and tapped gun. Even the .44 can jar the insides of a scope loose. The internals could be in a different spot for every shot.