8x57 from 270/30-06 brass?

[Tackleberry41]

A friend works at a gun range and gives me all the 270 that gets tossed in the brass bucket. Surprising that many don't bother to reload for it. It started as an experiment in will it work. Have plenty of 8mm brass. I read up on people annealing cases etc. But I found just cutting most of the neck off a 270 or 30/06, then shoving it thru a full length die, then back thru with the expander in it, does fine. I already had a neck turner to thin down what once was shoulder brass to the neck, same spec as factory brass .010.

Only problem is they are a bit tight closing the bolt. Figuring its the base where the sizing die doesn't quite get to due to the shell holder being in the way. Its a bit thick just forward of the solid part of the case. Anyone have a solution to this?

[khmer6]

If its too thick at the base and you are certain. Grind down and extra shell holder to get it to size all the way down. Make sure you mark this shell holder and hide it from yourself once done

[EDG]

You are probably not pushing the shoulder back enough for some reason.
The base of a 8mm and a 270 case are basically the same.
If you want to mess around and try something different.
FL size your .270 cases in a .270 or .30-06 FL die
Then cut off and form in the 8X57 die. See if that stops the interference at the base.

I have formed a lot of USGI 30-06 and .270 commercial to 8X57 and a lot of USGI to 7.65 Mauser.
This brass was used in maybe 10 different rifles and I did not have any cases that interfered at the base.



A friend works at a gun range and gives me all the 270 that gets tossed in the brass bucket. Surprising that many don't bother to reload for it. It started as an experiment in will it work. Have plenty of 8mm brass. I read up on people annealing cases etc. But I found just cutting most of the neck off a 270 or 30/06, then shoving it thru a full length die, then back thru with the expander in it, does fine. I already had a neck turner to thin down what once was shoulder brass to the neck, same spec as factory brass .010.

Only problem is they are a bit tight closing the bolt. Figuring its the base where the sizing die doesn't quite get to due to the shell holder being in the way. Its a bit thick just forward of the solid part of the case. Anyone have a solution to this?

[303carbine]

If its too thick at the base and you are certain. Grind down and extra shell holder to get it to size all the way down. Make sure you mark this shell holder and hide it from yourself once done

That is the exact method I use for making 8x57 out of 30-06, I put black marker on the shaved shell holder and leave it in the 8x57 box.

[UBER7MM]

I have found that 8x57 cases made from longer cases, 270 or 30'06 tend to have necks so thick that I need to turn the necks to get the bullets/boolits to seat. Not an issue, but it a lot of work to get a 8x57 case.

[Who's this Guy ?]

I have made 8mm mauser brass from both .270 and .30-06. I measure a factory case in millimeters and make it to those specs not specs on paper. They almost never seem to measure a true 57, more like 56 and a half to 56 and three quarters. I do not need bench rest ammo to put a hole through another whole at 500 yards. Just some fun paper target cheap plinkers for the old warhorse.

[seabreeze133]

RCBS has a sizing/trim die that makes short work of the transition to 8x57. Lube the brass, run through the die and use a FINE tooth hobby hacksaw (available from Harbor Freight for cheap) to cut to length and then run through the std size size die to get correct ID of the neck. The size/trim die is similar to a Wilson case gage in operation. This should work for jacketed bullets.

For cast bullet u will need to find a larger elliptical (sp) part to get a better I.S. diameter for the brass. I use Hornady dies and they have one that works for me. RCBS may also have the part u need. Did this w/a bunch of 270 brass and it is quick and easy.

Cheers

seabreeze

[rattletrap1970]

If you are going to do that I'd say a case gauge would be very helpful. Also. Rather that messing with the shell holder, I ground the end of the Sizing Die so that it would clear the shell plate. So in cases where there is a bump at the end of the 30-06 case, this will clean it all the way to the end.

[EDG]

Expand a 30-06 case to 8mm without cutting it off.
Use a tapered punch or 50 BMG bullet to make the case mouth expand into a funnel about .020 tool large to fit your neck. Push the case into the chamber neck far enough to squeeze the funnel to the size of the neck.
Extract Measure the diameter of the funnel after it was squeezed down in the chamber. If for some reason you do not believe the number you can easily repeat the test and remeasure. Repeat until you are satisfied with your number. I have never found any Mauser chamber neck too small for 30-06 type brass thickness.


I have found that 8x57 cases made from longer cases, 270 or 30'06 tend to have necks so thick that I need to turn the necks to get the bullets/boolits to seat. Not an issue, but it a lot of work to get a 8x57 case.

[Tackleberry41]

I don't have either a 270 or 30/06 rifle where I would have any reloading dies to try sizing that way first. Its an extra 34$ for the RCBS trim/form die. Its alot easier to cut them a little long with a dremmel, then get the extra little bit with a trimmer. Stuff I already have. And I already turn the necks down to spec, again a tool already in the drawer except for an 8mm reamer which was a couple bucks on clearance.

I have a neck size and full length die in 8mm. No idea why the FL die wouldn't push the shoulder back to proper specs, I measured and those specs are the same as unfired ammo I have. I would rather tear up a $4 shell holder, than go after the die to make it a little shorter. I did check, right where the die ends, the case is just a little out of spec. You can see where the die ends, its straight to that point, then begins the taper, where a factory 8mm has the taper beginning further back. Its not much of a hump but enough to make it tight to close or open the bolt.

[GRUMPA]

When I make that stuff I never hear of an issue from the folks that buy it from me. It's 1 of the easier ones I convert with the only problem (if you want to call it that) trimming off all that neck material. I have the gauges and equipment just for that conversion and now it's turned into a real simple process, well...getting 06 brass cheap has always been a PITA.

Almost sounds if you just had a small base die in either 8mm or 06 whatever issue your having would more than likely be solved.

[khmer6]

I knew grumpa would chime in sooner or later. He sells some good stuff on here, so take his advice seriously. Hope it goes well. I've made a few myself. No need to chop up a bunch of decent brass to have converted 8mm laying around

[lrdg]

I have told my wife and kids that when I die all reloads need to be tossed. I am merciless in reforming cases to shoot in something else. Headstamps mean nothing! The is a bunch of .308s, 7x57, and 8x57 on the shelf with .30-06, .270 headstamps. There are even a few .45 ACP shot shells with .30-06 headstamps. For that matter the Mauser Broomhandle ammo has .223 and NATO headstamps.

[Larry Gibson]

TackleBerry41

No idea why the FL die wouldn't push the shoulder back to proper specs

If you are camming the press ram over then that will cause the above. If so screw the die in a turn and solidly bump the shell holder agains the bottom of the FL die when forming. If you are already doing that then the neck pulling out over the expander will pull the shoulder forward many times causing the above. I started out forming 8x57 out of '06 and 270 also using a FL die and had the same problems. Bump the sheel holder and leaver the decap rod/expander out when forming the case. See if that formed case will chamber. If so the drag on the expander was pulling the neck/shoulder forward. Lube the insides of the formed neck, put the expander rod in the die so the expander is just below the shoulder up in the die. Then run the necks over the expander a couple times. Worked for me.

Larry Gibson

[UBER7MM]

I have told my wife and kids that when I die all reloads need to be tossed. I am merciless in reforming cases to shoot in something else. Headstamps mean nothing! The is a bunch of .308s, 7x57, and 8x57 on the shelf with .30-06, .270 headstamps. There are even a few .45 ACP shot shells with .30-06 headstamps. For that matter the Mauser Broomhandle ammo has .223 and NATO headstamps.

I bought some of that Brass Black to mark the heads and rims of cases I've made from other calibers. On my workbench, if the rim/base is blackened, it's not what it says.

[220swiftfn]

Just another tidbit to add to the pile.....


I've found that when forming 8mm Mauser or 7.65 Belgian/Argentine out of .30'06, it's best to trim to the "max length". The junction of the shoulder to neck and the body to shoulder are a bit rounded and fill out when fireformed, and if you trim to the "trim to" length, you'll wind up with cases about .010" shorter after they've been fired.......


Dan

[EDG]

I will add my findings about case length. The Mauser chambers that I have checked are about .030 to .040 (that is .75 to 1.0mm) longer than the published case lengths. I measure the chamber lengths and record for future reference. My formed cases do have the rounded shoulders as you state. I leave the cases long - full lenght of the chamber in the case of the 7.65. When fired they shorten .005 to .010 depending on if I lube the necks lightly before firing. The 7.65 is short neck round anyway. Leaving a .030 longer neck is better as long as it does not hit the end of the chamber.


Just another tidbit to add to the pile.....


I've found that when forming 8mm Mauser or 7.65 Belgian/Argentine out of .30'06, it's best to trim to the "max length". The junction of the shoulder to neck and the body to shoulder are a bit rounded and fill out when fireformed, and if you trim to the "trim to" length, you'll wind up with cases about .010" shorter after they've been fired.......


Dan

[Tackleberry41]

At first I was doing the forming without the expander, then went back and used it, not a whole lot of resistance that way. I have even gone back and re-resized the cases without the expander. Beginning to wonder if its an issue with my sizing die, my neck sizer is RCBS, full length is Lee. I went and checked older reloads using 8mm brass, full length sized, and they are a little more snug than factory ammo. Wouldn't be the first lee die I got that wasn't right. Not hard at all for me to shave a little off the base of the die in the lathe couple .001 at a time. Or send it back, they are usually pretty good about that.

I don't really need the brass. Its free, was looking to use up some of the surplus turkish stuff I have. 47 date stamps, the brass is brittle, go and check find cracked necks, I put the bullets in a bin, the powder in a marked can. Was going to load it back into this formed brass. Not my first rodeo at forming, make 577/450 from 24 ga shells (8mm from 270 by comparison is a breeze), have made 7.62x25 from 223 (way to much work), been making 410 shells out of 303 and 9.3x74r.

[leadman]

It may help to form the case without the expander and trim long, then anneal the neck and shoulder and full length size with the expander and a well lubed neck on the inside. I don't often have to anneal when reforming similaror same as you but it is called for sometimes.
If you have a 308 win die it could be used to bump the shoulder back a little more.

[Larry Gibson]

Not hard at all for me to shave a little off the base of the die in the lathe couple .001 at a time.

Done that a time or two, not hard as you mention. I've also used a dedicated shell holder for that die and sanded a though or two off the top. I just put a sheet of medium emery cloth on a hard surface and work the shell holder around....doesn't take long.

Larry Gibson

[Loudenboomer]

+1 Larry on sanding the shell holder. I need to do it forming .257 weatherby from 7mm Rem mag. Works great and leaves the sizer die unmolested.

[Pb2au]

This is a fortunate thread for me as I am in the exact same situation as the OP. I double checked the cam over and found I was not.
I have the shell holder in the tool room right now getting a haircut on the surface grinder.

[Teddy (punchie)]

I use graphite in the sizing lube, use regular die to neck size. Just a nice black color shows where and what is going on in the sizing.

I would try the same thing in the rifle to see where it touches. Maybe try something brush very light in the chamber?

If someone all ready posted on it sorry, I just read over view of the post,

[Tackleberry41]

Have done the emery cloth thing. Way easier to stick the shell holder in the lathe and shave off a little, then see how things work. Probably won't get to fool with it until monday when school starts again. Kid out of school leaves no time in the garage.

[Tackleberry41]

Seems the problem is just tolerance stacking, term I learned in drafting class years ago. Shaved a few .001 off with the lathe and they chamber fine. Went thru and measured a tray of various shell holders. They vary in thickness from a low of .245 to a high of .254. But add a few .001 to the end of a die and a few extra on a shell holder and you have a shoulder thats to far forward. The shaved holder ended up at .243, might shave another one to get the shoulder in just the right spot. Have to mark it as I have several #2 shell holders and all are slightly different thicknesses.

[fguffey]

Seems the problem is just tolerance stacking, term I learned in drafting class years ago. Shaved a few .001 off with the lathe and they chamber fine. Went thru and measured a tray of various shell holders. They vary in thickness from a low of .245 to a high of .254. But add a few .001 to the end of a die and a few extra on a shell holder and you have a shoulder thats to far forward. The shaved holder ended up at .243, might shave another one to get the shoulder in just the right spot. Have to mark it as I have several #2 shell holders and all are slightly different thicknesses.

.245” to .254”, then the shaved shell holder ended up at.243”? The only measurement that effects sizing and case length from the shoulder to the head of the case is shell holder deck height, all of my shell holders have a deck height of .125”. I have a #4 set of Redding Competition shell holders, the deck height of the Redding shell holders are .127”, .129”, .131”, .133 and .135”, not really, three of them are off by .001” each. I had the opportunity to purchase the set for $5.00 at a gun show in Mesquite, TX. Shell holders for $5.00 is a bargain. When sizing belted magnum cases I ignore the belt and size off of the shoulder, anything I can do with the Redding Competitions shell holders I can do with a feeler gage. Anything I can accomplish by grinding the top of the shell holder and or base of the die I can accomplish with a feeler gage.

When a reloader raises the ram to size a case they assume the case was sized when the ram stops and the handle appears to have reached its maximum travel. No consideration is given to the possibility the case has more resistance to sizing than the press can overcome. If the case is full length sized the die contacts the shell holder, meaning, there should not be a gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die when the ram is raised to maximum.

If there is a gap? The case did not get pushed into the die completely, the case head protrusion should be .125” (because the deck height of the shell holder is .125”). A case head protrusion of .130” means the case head protrusion is equivalent to sizing a case that is go-gage length, and that is .005” longer than a minimum/full length sized case. All a reloader is required to do is develop good habits, when sizing a case measure the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die, if the case is ‘tuffer’ than the press there will be a gap.

Another method/technique: A reloader can remove the die with the case without lowering the ram on a single stage press, simply rotate the shell holder until it aligns with the case and slot in the ram, then remove the shell holder, unscrew the die and measure case head protrusion, the case head protrusion should be .125”, if is is more than .125” the case won and when sizing the case the press flexed/bowed. There are tools that measure deflection and strain, the amount of deflection/strain can be measured in thousandths.

What causes the most deflection/stain? Bad habits. I attempted to help a builder/reloader, he had a .017” gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die with the die screwed in an additional 2 (.142”) turns after contact with the shell holder. Suspect press? It was an Ammo Master press by RCBS.

If the case is not being sized a reloader can determine ‘by how much’ with a feeler gage and or comparators, if it is absolutely necessary to grind the shell holder and or bottom of the die the reloader can determine ‘by how much’.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

Push the shoulder back or bump the shoulder. How?

rectifier” an alternator produces alternating current, to change/rectify the alternating current to D/C a rectifier is used.

Push the shoulder back and or bump the shoulder? When I form cases the shoulder is changed/wrecked/erased, the shoulder on the 270 W and or 30/06 does not move, it is changed, part of the case body becomes part of the shoulder, part of the shoulder becomes part of the neck. The shoulders on my formed cases do not move, they are changed. The shoulder that is formed is a new shoulder. I have scribed the case body/shoulder juncture on cases before forming, the scribed line becomes an artifact on the newly formed case, the old case body/shoulder juncture of the 30/06 is close to the shoulder/neck juncture of the 8mm57 after forming.

F. Guffey