Can you use copper powder to add copper to your melt

[TreeKiller]

Title says it all. I have copper sulfate powder used for sheep dip can you use it and how much per pound of lead?

[sqlbullet]

Based on some limited googling, I think you would actually end up replacing the copper in copper sulfate with lead, while freeing the copper.

Pb(s)+CuSO4(aq) ---> PbSO4(s)+Cu(s

The free copper may then dissolve, but I would rather not sacrifice lead in the process. But, I am no chemist. Maybe one will happen along and comment.

[swheeler]

I think you need a little zinc in the alloy to make it work. Try a search, something like adding copper to your alloy, about a year ago started by Popper IIRC

[TheCelt]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/printthread.php?t=175796&pp=20&page=1

[swheeler]

That's it, thanks TheCelt

[TheCelt]

You're welcome! I must admit that the chemistry is a bit beyond me but I've been playing around with zinc contaminated alloys and the addition of copper sulphate does appear to work. The resulting alloy seems somewhat brittle though. I have not checked the BHN but will get back to it in time. I think that in addition to adding copper that it removes tin as well as zinc. If that is the case it is my hope that re-adding tin will reduce the brittleness, we'll see.

[lwknight]

Tin dissolves copper like water to salt. That's partly how they made bronze in the olden days.
Theoretically , you should be able to add copper heavy tin to lead easily.

[TreeKiller]

Tin dissolves copper like water to salt. That's partly how they made bronze in the olden days.
Theoretically , you should be able to add copper heavy tin to lead easily.
Then you need to add copper to the tin and then add the tin to the lead. I have some pewter I could try but do not want to waste any of it if this is not the way.
Thanks All

[TheCelt]

It was my understanding that the copper sulphate reacted primarily with the zinc but also with the tin. At present the alloy I am working with does not display the malleability that I thought it should.

[lwknight]

303 guy posted several threads about adding copper. He found out that an alloy containing tin will dissolve fine copper wire up to something like 1 or 2 % and that was enough to make a really tough malleable bullet.
I do not remember just how much tin was needed but would hazard a guess that it was not that much like 2 or 3 percent.

[TheCelt]

My initial objective was to convert an alloy I couldn't use (zinc contaminated) to an alloy I could use (copper enriched, no zinc). I think I obtained that goal but do not have the malleability I thought I should have. As soon as I get caught up with the casting I'll try alloying the copper enriched alloy with a bar of 50/50 to see if It restores the malleability, we'll see.

[farmerjim]

I find 1/2 % Cu will add 5 to 7 BHN and not make the alloy brittle like Sb.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

seasrch poppers posts, he had insight on copper sulphate to add the Cu, and some thoughts on using sulfur to remove zinc, IIRC

[popper]

CuSO4 will replace tin first, then zinc. Most of my alloy comes from Roto so the content is known. I use high Sb alloy & pure for my mix. I add some #2 or zinc pennies (1 penny per 10# alloy =0.12%) to get the Cu into the melt. The Cu replaces either 1:1 so 1% zinc converts to 1% Cu. Pb will absorb ~0.3%, the Sb absorbs the rest, ~ 0.5% in my case. You want all the Cu to be either in the Pb or Sb, NO free Cu. It pours into my 30 cal mould with ~ +/- 0.25 gr variance. I recovered 3 40sw boolits from a wet paving shale pile, from 15', > 90% wt retention. I only recovered a few bits of the 308-165 from 25', ~2400 fps, no surprise there. The rock pile was 1/4" thick chunks about 30 cal/165gr size or smaller, really hard rock. I did try this method on collected WW and it worked the same (assumed zinc contaminated). Make sure the mould is up to temp - it freezes rapidly.

[TheCelt]

Thanks Popper, you just explained my conundrum!! I assumed that the CuSO4 would replace the zinc first and then tin. The fact that the Tin goes first explains a lot.

My alloy was COWW that I know was contaminated with zinc, how much I don't know. The alloy now seems brittle and a Boolit hit with a hammer will fracture instead of obdurate. I'll add tin to the alloy and test it again.

Thanks for all your work with this, it offers some significant benefits for those of us looking for a "tougher" alloy without using lino/monotype alloys.

[TreeKiller]

seasrch poppers posts, he had insight on copper sulphate to add the Cu, and some thoughts on using sulfur to remove zinc, IIRC
Thanks;
I will read all of poppers posts.
Dan

[bhn22]

My new thing for the day. I had never considered doing this. I must read more!

[TheCelt]

My new thing for the day. I had never considered doing this. I must read more!

Well Sir, you have quite a bit to read!! Poppers thread on this subject is over 12 pages long and is a fascinating read. While I am no chemist (Chem I & II were as far as I got) it is broken down to lay terms that anybody can understand. When searching for CuSO4 do an on-line search and several supply houses will appear, I got more than I'll ever use for not much money. I first went to a pool chemical supply warehouse and was told it hasn't been used in pools for many years.

As an aside I would not use your casting pot for adding the CuSO4. I used a smelting pot (1/2 of a propane tank) which worked out very well.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Well Sir, you have quite a bit to read!! Poppers thread on this subject is over 12 pages long and is a fascinating read.

And the thread that I had started is at 19 pages now, you need to read all of the various threads on adding copper as bits and pieces of the puzzle is distributed through out them all.

EDIT: my thread was about learning more about this, not telling what I knew, 'cause I dint know nuthin! :)

[TheCelt]

Jim, could you send me the link to your thread? I am learning as well an would like to read that thread as well.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Jim, could you send me the link to your thread? I am learning as well an would like to read that thread as well.

4th "sticky" down top o the page :)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172475-High-Copper-Alloys-Lets-discuss-this-further

for us non chemist, neanderthals, I suggest using Roto Metals high copper babbit alloy to sweeten the pot.
Getting the same alloy proportions repeatedly by other methods is not going to be easy.
The coolest thing about this copper stuff, is you can shoot it dropped from the mold in reasonable pressure zones,
heat treat it and obtain a very tough alloy that will withstand high pressures and velocities, and not shatter on impact.
The difficult part is you have to wait after casting for the stuff to stabilize and quit changing sizes.
it has been mentioned though, that by doing a low heast adn cool cycle can speed up the aging process.
I haven tried that yet, but I have my 7mm-08 shooting at 2100fps now, at under and inch @100 yards.
I'm still chasing the flyer that shows up once in a while, but I discovered my ram bore was worn out in the lube sizer and shaving off one side of the boolit.
I size them in a push trough, and been just lubing in the sizer, but it is wiping down one side and not the other, so that may be the culprit

[TheCelt]

Thanks Jim, some more interesting reading!!! I have enough CuSO4 to last quite a while so I am attempting to enrich my alloy that way. I agree that starting with a known alloy is the way to go, maybe when the "rainy day" fund is back up to speed!!

[badgeredd]

4th "sticky" down top o the page :)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172475-High-Copper-Alloys-Lets-discuss-this-further

for us non chemist, neanderthals, I suggest using Roto Metals high copper babbit alloy to sweeten the pot.
Getting the same alloy proportions repeatedly by other methods is not going to be easy.
The coolest thing about this copper stuff, is you can shoot it dropped from the mold in reasonable pressure zones,
heat treat it and obtain a very tough alloy that will withstand high pressures and velocities, and not shatter on impact.
The difficult part is you have to wait after casting for the stuff to stabilize and quit changing sizes.
it has been mentioned though, that by doing a low heast adn cool cycle can speed up the aging process.
I haven tried that yet, but I have my 7mm-08 shooting at 2100fps now, at under and inch @100 yards.
I'm still chasing the flyer that shows up once in a while, but I discovered my ram bore was worn out in the lube sizer and shaving off one side of the boolit.
I size them in a push trough, and been just lubing in the sizer, but it is wiping down one side and not the other, so that may be the culprit

Jim,

Something that may interest you on adding the babbit to your alloy and the extended hardening/stabilizing time. 357maximum has played with this method as much as anyone and realized after some prodding from myself, that a "balanced" alloy won't take long to stabilize. He found his alloy was a little high on the tin content and once he got his alloy closer to a "balanced" alloy, the long aging process disappeared. IMHO, one doesn't have to have the number perfect for a balance, but the %s should be close to perfect. The closer they are to a perfect balance, the less time it take for the alloy to stabilize in size and hardness. Also I personally have found that a Sb content in the 2.75% to 3.25% range seems to be near perfect as far as malleability and toughness for high perssure/high velocity loads. Hope this info will be useful to you.

Edd

[badgeredd]

Thanks Jim, some more interesting reading!!! I have enough CuSO4 to last quite a while so I am attempting to enrich my alloy that way. I agree that starting with a known alloy is the way to go, maybe when the "rainy day" fund is back up to speed!!

A thought...popper said in one of his posts, one might need to treat a batch of alloy nemerous times. I used his method to remove zinc from a contaminated batch of lead and found that it took 4 treatments to get rid of the zinc contaminant. Zinc in quantities of less than 1% won't harm your alloy and will increase it's hardness. Once you are relatively sure the zinc has been as completely removed as is practicle, I'd add some purish lead along with about 2% tin. That should get rid of the brittleness.

Edd

[popper]

Celt - add pure until the alloy is nice and malleable.
92384
40sw TC on left, 115 9mm factory on the right. Found ~ 5" deep in the rock pile. 2 had almost 100% wt, third lost <10%. Cast some 40s with <1% Sb to try, hoping for similar accuracy. Bottom is all I could find from 308, 2400+ fps from 25'.

[TheCelt]

Sounds like a plan Popper, that's what I'll do. The performance of those Boolits in the picture is amazing!

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Edd, thanks for that. I must have gotten luck on my enriching with the fine copper wire, as my boolits seem to have settled down in 4-6 days
in both hardness and size. Size was very stable BTW, only changing ~ .0005" or so over several weeks. the hardness did take a few days to come to full and settle down.
Like I said, I'm sure I got lucky, but I did use the "precipitation method" adding wire till it would'nt take any more, that may have helped