Big Boy don't like cast

[charger 1]

Got some 255 grain bevel base RF's that are accurate in the henry out to 20, but then must only be marginally stable cause at 50 it's more of a pattern than a group
Tried 18 grs of 2400
15 grs of HS7

Neither load is better or worse, their all Dog dung

Going to run some 300 XTP's out of her tomorrow, just to make sure it's not the gun however I've checked everything like 20 times

[Salmoneye]

You don't mention bore/groove diameters and bullet diameter...

[charger 1]

452 is bullet dia. Have not slugged gun. Then again I have tons of unslugged guns that still shoot cast.

I mean lets me honest. If meant to shoot factory cast I can't see why it would not like the same dia cast

[btroj]

I find that many 250 gr or so bullets are fine to 50 and all over at 100 yards. I have a 300 gr bullet that works wonders at 100 I use instead.

[charger 1]

Yeah I'm going to fiddle a hair more but if/when I can't get em to work I'll use em in the pistol and with just the peep for earth pigs, then put in the 300's come hunt time

[DeanWinchester]

452 is bullet dia. Have not slugged gun. Then again I have tons of unslugged guns that still shoot cast.

I mean lets me honest. If meant to shoot factory cast I can't see why it would not like the same dia cast


That's a horrible point of view. Most commercial casters suck at their job. Fit is everything. There's a great many 45 colts that shoot better with larger than .452. My Ruger Blackhawk will only shoot straight on a diet of .454.

[Salmoneye]

If meant to shoot factory cast I can't see why it would not like the same dia cast

Ya lost me...

[Tn Jim]

http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu93/JAtkins63/IMG_0143.jpg (http://s637.photobucket.com/user/JAtkins63/media/IMG_0143.jpg.html)

Fired from a Henry BB 44mag at 50 yards. 1 1/2" center to center. They Henry's are good cast shooters IF you feed them what they want. I understand yours is a 45 LC, but 250 is as heavy as I can go in my 44. The 1-38" twist doesn't like the heavyweights. Also, mine is picky about OAL. If it's much over the standard 1.610" length it doesn't want to cycle.

[charger 1]

And I realized the boo boo was/is all mine. I always think pressure when I think max powder, but apparently that's not the issue when talking 2400 and 45 LC. It's more a matter of efficiency. I lowered it to the book max of 16 grains. It's running a solid 1420 FPS and off hand will put a group inside the above group. In my 73 SAA the same load runs 880, and at pistol distance is very accurate. I think I got my combo load. Hope so, loaded up 200 of em[smilie=1:

[charger 1]

That's a horrible point of view. Most commercial casters suck at their job. Fit is everything. There's a great many 45 colts that shoot better with larger than .452. My Ruger Blackhawk will only shoot straight on a diet of .454.

Of all my casting experience I've never seen the benefit in going over bore on fit unless it's under 375 cal and You're just not going to get enough obturation, but. Above 375 cal I am at most size for size. Remember there's lots of 457 lee stuff out there running swimmingly

[snaketail]

I went from 452 to 454 and my accuracy went up wonderfully - might be an easy fix for you.

[cbrick]

I always think pressure when I think max powder, but apparently that's not the issue when talking 2400 and 45 LC. It's more a matter of efficiency. I lowered it to the book max of 16 grains.

Am I missing something? You LOWERED it to book MAX? By two grains? I didn't look the load up but you were shooting 2 gr over listed max load?

Rick

[charger 1]

Am I missing something? You LOWERED it to book MAX? By two grains? I didn't look the load up but you were shooting 2 gr over listed max load?

Rick

Ya So?

Shoots a house afire now. Well once I find the spring I'm missing. Wish someone had a better than manual descrip of trigger parts

[cbrick]

Just out of curiosity charger, what area are you in?

BTW, good lookin dog.

Rick

[charger 1]

ontario canada

[cbrick]

Ah, Canada. That's a good thing, I wanted to make sure that your not the one on the firing line next me.

Rick

[dragon813gt]

Ah, Canada. That's a good thing, I wanted to make sure that your not the one on the firing line next me.

Rick

Zing :laugh:
Is it bad that I knew where you were going when you asked where he lived?

[charger 1]

Ah, Canada. That's a good thing, I wanted to make sure that your not the one on the firing line next me.

Rick

Ah falicornia. The land where the highest pop of those who make a profession of living fake lives live. Good on You.
BTW We don't have "Firing lines "here. Not that communized. Take care lefty

[dragon813gt]

Firing lines are communist? I never would have thought being safe around firearms was a communist thing. I learn something new everyday. And you are completely wrong about Rick as well :)

[charger 1]

Firing lines are communist? I never would have thought being safe around firearms was a communist thing. I learn something new everyday. And you are completely wrong about Rick as well :)

I DO NOT SUFFER FOOLS LIGHTLY

If it's just to say the gun will blow up say it. We don't have to do a big "Where do You live"? Then I take time to respond cause I think i'm getting a notification of something useful posted, but no, when I'm trying to put something together I'm not taken away for something worthwhile .I'm taken away for the punch line of the two part joke. Sorry, can't tolerate that fantasia **** that cornifornians barf out

[cbrick]

Ah falicornia. The land where the highest pop of those who make a profession of living fake lives live. Good on You. BTW We don't have "Firing lines "here. Not that communized. Take care lefty

Two fascinating things to say. Both completely wrong, maybe that's what makes them fascinating.

Rick

[cbrick]

I DO NOT SUFFER FOOLS LIGHTLY

Your intentionally loading two grains over listed book max and obviously see no problem with doing so and then post that! Amazing. :roll:

Rick

[btroj]

Your intentionally loading two grains over listed book max and obviously see no problem with doing so and then post that! Amazing. :roll:

Rick

He must not own a mirror......

[BABore]

Why don't you all just be real helpful and give the OP the "Miracle Load" for his Henry.

[cbrick]

Why don't you all just be real helpful and give the OP the "Miracle Load" for his Henry.

Sounds like he already has it . . . Max book load plus two grains.

Rick

[BABore]

Them are a different kind of Miracle Load!

[cbrick]

That is a miracle load. It's a miracle the gun is still together. However he did say he was missing a spring, Hhmmm.

Rick

[btroj]

Why don't you all just be real helpful and give the OP the "Miracle Load" for his Henry.

You're killing me here.

I didn't know anyone in MI except Mike had as else of humor.......

[btroj]

Sounds like he already has it . . . Max book load plus two grains.

Rick

Should I try that with BE in my 1911? Sounds like a great load......

Wonder how far apart the pieces will land......

[JSnover]

The mighty Henry is (allegedly) made of some Miracle Metal; brass with the same tensile and yield strength as steel. :wink:

[jmort]

^ You don't need colored type to understand the irony of a true statement made in a clueless post intended to be double sarcastic. Sarcasm by its context and very nature should be obvious. Use of color and a smiley face icon to boost the octane of the sarcasm is a dubious venture. Are our pens/wits so dull that sarcasm needs color and a smiley face icon?

[JSnover]

Why don't we ask somebody at Henry what they think about exceeding max loads?

[jmort]

That is axiomatic. O'wait, I forgot a smiley face and color text. I wonder if my sarcasm got through?

[Pb2au]

Well I can see I have been doing this wrong the whole time. You start above the max load in the manual and work down to it. Wait, was I supposed to own a loading manual or get all my data from the interwebz?

[dragon813gt]

Neither. You pick a powder w/ a pretty label, fill the case to overflowing and then seat the bullet to compress to powder really good. Almost forgot, make sure you use a magnum primer in case the powder is one of those hard to ignite types. I think the hard to ignite ones come in black bottles.

[leeggen]

It seems Charger 1 doesn't want help with his problem, he wants verifacation that he is right in what he is doing and saying. Any suggestions he has tried to counter with his way. As many have found out and learned on here fit is #1 and slugging your barrel is the first thing before casting and sizing to that fit plus atleast .001 larger in slug.
So lets not make remarks to him but give him sound advice and let him learn the hard way as a few need to.
CD

When deep in pooh, look ahead and keep your mouth shut!

[garym1a2]

I don't think based on what I read that 18 grs of 2400 with a 250gr boolit is too hot in a Henry 45 colt rifle.

[45 2.1]

You're killing me here.

I didn't know anyone in MI except Mike had as else of humor.......

Bruce's sense of humor is quite humorous..........Mike's is another thing all together.

[JSnover]

Looks like I struck a nerve. If Henry receivers are made of such a fantastic material, why couldn't they slim them down a bit?

[northmn]

I have old loading data for the 45Colt from Speer and Lyman that lists some pretty hot numbers for the 45. Two levels listed. New manuals have quit doing that and stay with the old Peacemaker loads. Also due to its use in Win73's loads are kept down. As to the strength of a Henry I have no idea, but for Marlins and Ruger handguns I have seen some loads that rival a 44 mag. I remember seeing a forum where the 44 mag was referred to as the 45 Colts little brother as the 45 Marlin was said to be loaded to a level to be a 45-70 short. The Speer manual points out that case life is somewhat shortened by those loads. I found most of the sarcasm to be based on ignorance of the caliber.
Personally I have a Ruger 45 Colt and based on the loading data I either use close to starting loads for the "strong actions" or the max Colt/73 loads. Some of the loads I have seen listed I would not want to shoot out of the pistol as they would hurt. My complaint about these super hot 45 loads that seem to be safe in stronger actions is that one does not always know who might end up getting them as from an estate auction.
As to accuracy with cast: Three things are critical for me. Alloy, size and lube. Alloy is close to the top for me as often poor accuracy can be from too soft a bullet. Mostly from higher velocity loadings. As for sizing, about .01-.02 over slugged bore size. For lube I like to use Lee Liquid Alox as it coats the whole bullet (It can affect the sizing slightly also).

DP

[cbrick]

I remember seeing a forum where the 44 mag was referred to as the 45 Colts little brother as the 45 Marlin was said to be loaded to a level to be a 45-70 short. The Speer manual points out that case life is somewhat shortened by those loads.

DP, which Speer manual please?


I found most of the sarcasm to be based on ignorance of the caliber. DP

Hhmmm . . . That must be me. :mrgreen:

Rick

[garym1a2]

Little brother link, quite interesting link on 45 Colt in rifles.

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellMarlin1894.htm

45 Colt, Cartridge dimensions

The .45 Colt chambering of the Marlin 1894 is blessed with a 1 in 16" twist. As a result it is capable of handling a wider range of bullet weights than is its .44 caliber little brother. Also, if my gun is representative, it seems that the fatter chamber opening is more forgiving in terms which bullet profiles cycle and feed properly through the action. Virtually everything tried fed slick as a whistle (the only feeding problem encountered was with a 265 grain NEI SWC, a variation on .451-275-PB, #317, a bullet with the forward portion very similar to the 452423; a very thick forward driving band, coupled with a very short nose, a tough combination for a lever-gun).


DP, which Speer manual please?



Hhmmm . . . That must be me. :mrgreen:

Rick

[cbrick]

Great, I am rather familiar with Glen's articles, nowhere does it say to load two grains over book max. Little brother means simply the smaller diameter cartridge.

Rick

[Daddyfixit]

Just for the fun of it I dug out my old Speer Number Ten. They don't even list 2400 under any weight bullet for the 45 Colt,
but there is a section listed as "45 Colt for Ruger or Contender Only" under 250 gr SWC it shows using a mag primer with
17.2 min/ 18.7 max of 2400.
The 2012 Reloader's Guide from Alliant Powder shows 250gr LSWC @ 15.4 as max load

[jmort]

Here it is from Henry Repeating Arms, for the .45 Colt, and good for them for not taking the weenie approach, but telling it like it is

"Thank you for your interest in Henry. The rate of twist is 1:38. This does not matter for the larger rounds as our Big boy rifles are not made to be able to safely or properly feed rounds with bullet weights over 270 gr. Our Big Boy's can handle all the +P pressure out there even Big Buffalo Bore ammunition as long as the rounds are not to big (over 270 gr.) to feed through the action."

So I'm thinking 20 grains max

[jmort]

.45 Colt (Ruger & Contender Only ) (Speer Reloading Manual #14)

Load Image
Warning! Notes: max. case length: 1.285"; trim-to length: 1.275"; max cart. OAL: 1.600"; RCBS shell holder: #20; cart. case: Winchester; primer: CCI 300 (except where otherwise specified in remarks); test firearm: Ruger Blackhawk; barrel length: 7.5"; maximum loads should be used with CAUTION; NOTE: Do not use in any other make or model firearm. IMPORTANT SAFETY NOTE: Since Speer #14 Manual was published, Ruger has replaced the original Vaquero revolver with a smaller version called the New Vaquero. Ruger has advised the industry that the New Vaquero must not be fired with loads exceeding industry pressure standards (14,000 psi). If loading for a New Vaquero, use the standard pressure data in the .45 Colt Handgun Speer Data.
Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data.
Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS)
250 Speer Colt GDHP Alliant 2400 18.0 1058
Remarks: start charge
250 Speer Colt GDHP Alliant 2400 20.0 1145
Remarks: maximum charge

[geargnasher]

Speer #11 has the same Ruger/TC-only data as was posted from #10 above. 18 grains doesn't scare me with a 255 at all, those rifles are well-built, and anything that can handle factory 44 Magnum should be able to handle sane +P .45 Colt loads comfortably. I don't like what I know just from what was posted on this thread about the OP's load workup methods at all, but I don't see where he was in any danger of blowing up his gun.

Y'all DO realize this is a modern, Henry rifle, not an Italian 1860 toggle-link repro, right? 18 grains of 2400 would probably pop one of those like a plastic grocery sack.

Gear

[quilbilly]

I sounds like you did the same thing I did with a Contender carbine in 9mm. For a long time I tried to make it into a mini 357 with slight over max charges to get 1500 fps but it did the same as your 45LC. Finally I became sane (at least temporarily) and backed off to a moderate load well below maximum (1200 fps in the carbine) and darned if it didn't suddenly become a fine shooter. Welcome to my world.

[jmort]

There is a sweet spot in all of this

[JSnover]

I'm guessing Henry uses the same receiver blanks for all of their Big Boys, so they should withstand 44 magnum pressures. The OP sort of put his foot in his mouth, is all. I'm still skeptical of their 'strong as steel' claim, though. All of the ones I've seen appear to have more material surrounding the breech than other lever actions with steel receivers chambered for the same cartridges. I'm sure they're safe but it looks like the HRAC engineers were less than 100% certain of their claim, so they added some metal... Just to be sure.

[jmort]

"I'm still skeptical of their 'strong as steel' claim, though."

I saw it put this way: "Some brass alloys are as strong as some steel alloys." Some steel alloys can be stronger than any brass alloys. So it is strong enough for it's intended purpose. As yes, the O/P did bollix this thread up, which is why we are at post #51

[geargnasher]

There is a sweet spot in all of this

More accurately, there is a useful range to every component. Get enough of them operating within that range, and it comes together. If one desires to alter the velocity or pressure window, one must engineer all components of the load to function properly at that level.

Or, as is more common a practice, run the alloy you brung and experiment with a few powders and charge weights to find it's "sweet spot". Where people get into trouble is trying to make something work that can't work, yet not caring to find out why it doesn't.

Gear

[northmn]

I found some data in I believe #47 that listed for Contender 45 Colt laods that were very impressive. Even Winchester ran into a similar issue with their line of 73Winchester cartridges when they also developed a line for the model 92. They had a 44-40 load at about 1700 fps, and some other higher speed loads for other cartridges, but dropped them because people could not be trusted to use them Peacemakers and 73 Winchesters. I had seen loads in manuals for the 44-40 that were also hotter for the 92 Winchester but now are not listed.
My Ruger is a Blackhawk and not a Vacquero, and has a stronger frame such that it can take a little hotter laods than a Peacemaker. Also these older cartridges date back to black powder days and some guns are still around designed for BP pressures. A very old Lyman manual that I had at one time listed about 1 grain more of Unique for a Colt revolver than one now sees. At one timewe were expected to know what we were doing in load development and not use max loads if they were contraindicated. Many loaders today seem to just load and use depending on the manuals as Bibles. I had a 357 revolver once that would take a max load of 2400 fine but hated Unique, even at a reduced listed load, and the shells would have very sticky extraction, but with 2400 they would almost fall out. I did not use Unique in that revolver.
One manual lists 3 levels of loads for a 45-70 starting with the trap doors at the bottom, lever guns in the middle and the Ruger single shot, etc at the top end. These old BP can require a little care in load selection tht depends somewhat on the savvy of the users.

DP

[charger 1]

^ You don't need colored type to understand the irony of a true statement made in a clueless post intended to be double sarcastic. Sarcasm by its context and very nature should be obvious. Use of color and a smiley face icon to boost the octane of the sarcasm is a dubious venture. Are our pens/wits so dull that sarcasm needs color and a smiley face icon?

In black and white, You're correct

[charger 1]

Speer #11 has the same Ruger/TC-only data as was posted from #10 above. 18 grains doesn't scare me with a 255 at all, those rifles are well-built, and anything that can handle factory 44 Magnum should be able to handle sane +P .45 Colt loads comfortably. I don't like what I know just from what was posted on this thread about the OP's load workup methods at all, but I don't see where he was in any danger of blowing up his gun.

Y'all DO realize this is a modern, Henry rifle, not an Italian 1860 toggle-link repro, right? 18 grains of 2400 would probably pop one of those like a plastic grocery sack.

Gear

No they have no clue Chum. If it isn't in a book somewhere their lost. I use manuals merely as the guides they were intended to be. Some places list as much as 24 grs of 2400 behind that bullet. Would I do that with a hot powder? He11 no, but 18 grs of 2400 behind cast is hardly a 45LC pressure issue. Get some real life experience OK guys

[charger 1]

Here it is from Henry Repeating Arms, for the .45 Colt, and good for them for not taking the weenie approach, but telling it like it is

"Thank you for your interest in Henry. The rate of twist is 1:38. This does not matter for the larger rounds as our Big boy rifles are not made to be able to safely or properly feed rounds with bullet weights over 270 gr. Our Big Boy's can handle all the +P pressure out there even Big Buffalo Bore ammunition as long as the rounds are not to big (over 270 gr.) to feed through the action."

So I'm thinking 20 grains max
Holy frig I got ranked by the cali-lefties for 2 grains over, now You're subscribing to 4.5 grs over. I say You're nuts, the folk who built the gun are clueless. The people on post 7 of the link below are nuts. The only people that aren't nuts are the cali-lefties. You see they've smoked just enough electric lettuce that their paranoia helps them to make far more rash decisions than all us other clunks put together. For them that were worried bout brass over steel. The yellow is just a pretty place to put them.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?224297-Accurate-boolit-for-45-Colt

[rhead]

452 is bullet dia. Have not slugged gun. Then again I have tons of unslugged guns that still shoot cast.

I mean lets me honest. If meant to shoot factory cast I can't see why it would not like the same dia cast

The problem there is that satisfactory results with factory cast is more of an exception than the rule. That is unless you are satisfied with the firearm going bang when the trigger is pulled.

I agree with why slug the bore and chamber when it is shooting good but if it is not shooting good slugging is my first action.

[charger 1]

1 or 2 thou under if shooting cast over 40 cal is fine. This whole "Veral Smith, run a 456 bullet down a 451 hole" is nonsense. Why has Lee sold their heavy 45 cal in 457? ANSWER, It'll bump to size. Never had luck in this "Let the bore do the final sizing" Garb

[singleshot]

1 or 2 thou under if shooting cast over 40 cal is fine. This whole "Veral Smith, run a 456 bullet down a 451 hole" is nonsense. Why has Lee sold their heavy 45 cal in 457? ANSWER, It'll bump to size. Never had luck in this "Let the bore do the final sizing" Garb

From the beginning of this thread, I knew there was confusion concerning lead projectiles, but I figured calm heads, experience, and actual knowledge would prevail. This post is the capstone of misunderstanding, and shows complete ignorance in the differences between smokeless powder and associated loading techniques, and black powder with associated loading techniques, not to mention alloy composition, etc, etc, etc. There isn't enough space here to point out all the ridiculousness contained in the tiny post above so I'll simply cease and desist. I'm flabbergasted!

Good day to you sir!