I need a bit of help please

[dave roelle]

I was gifted this piece from my son-in-law at christmas, he knew it was in his family at least one generation, the family home is in wisconsin.

Can anyone help with an I.D. or point me in the right direction ?

The barrel, is 41 inches long, the barrel is 1.04 across the flats, the bore will accept a 3/8 gage pin

The lock functions, triggers set ----its obviously been poorly cared for----the hammer is a brazed together mess and the wood around the lock and upper sections around the end of the barrel seem to have been overheated---perhaps the brazing ????

I haven't dis-assembled anything yet ------ the wrist of the rifle and the lock have a target rifle look to them---they are both quite delicate.

Thanks in advance for any help

Dave

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http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN0343-1.jpg
(http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN0343-1.jpg.html)

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN0357-1.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN0357-1.jpg.html)

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN0353-1.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN0353-1.jpg.html)

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN0368.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN0368.jpg.html)

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN0362.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN0362.jpg.html)

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN0354.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN0354.jpg.html)

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN0362.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN0362.jpg.html)

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN0361.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN0361.jpg.html)

[dave roelle]

Hi excess:

I haven't been able to make out any markings at all-------i hope to break it down tomorrow, perhaps some markings will be exposed

Thanks for the response

Keep well and stay safe

Dave

[waksupi]

Don't bother taking it apart. Hang it on a wall, and enjoy it. There is nothing to be gained by dis-assembly of that gun.

[Dean D.]

Waksupi is telling you straight. Any type of "clean-up" or dings from trying to disassemble the rifle will only detract from it's value. The boys over on the AmericanLongRifle.org forum may be able to help you identify it just from the pictures you have. If nothing else the pictures you have may add to some researchers study.

Looking at the muzzle picture it looks to me like the barrel has been relined to a smaller caliber.

[KCSO]

I have one similar to that one and mine is marked D G and W Cincinatti, OH. That is not a lot of help as there were makers all over the East who made that style of rifle before the war. A very mild cleaning of the top flat of the barrel and the lock face may give you some markings to go on. My rifle had a very good bore but the stock and lock and breech were in similar shape as yours. After about 100 hours of work replacing wood with curly maple from other old stocks and re breeching, making a new drum to match the old one re fitting the tang and gentle cleaning and RESTORATION I have an original shooter that I hang on the wall, because i feel that even with repairs the stock is too old and brittle to make a real user.

[bob208]

that lock is not as old as you think it is from a cartage shot gun modified to a percussion hammer. that accounts for the brazing. now from the look of the stock and the breach area of the barrel it looks like it was ate up by the caps going off. which is very common. maybe the original lock was ruined by the corrosive caps. I have seen it before. take it to a good black powder gunsmith let him look at it. he mite get it shooting for you. .

[fouronesix]

Sorry, but that is a wall hanger only. No telling about what it was or who made it. It kind of has the appearance of parts put together including the possible? liner outline at the muzzle. Judging from the photos only, there is something really odd about the breech, nipple, tang. I've never seen that much corrosion in that area- no matter the cap formula, age or lack of maintenance. Wonder also if the original breech was blown out?? It also has the appearance of a welded bolster & nipple?? Only in-hand careful study would reveal any details of it's history, modifications and the like.

[Smokepole50]

Could it be a shotgun that was converted to a rifle? Quickly looking through my copy of Kentucky Rifles in its Golden Age I don't see any rifle with a half length stock, they are all full length. If the lock is from a shotgun then maybe it was a shotgun when it was made. I would hang it on the wall and appreciate it for what it is, a very old example of american craftsmanship with a nice patch box.

[dave roelle]

Well folks i had the people at Collectors Firearms in Houston look the old rifle over.

They confirm the Ohio creation------identified the barrel as American made and the lock as Belgium-------------------without more information currect value between $500 and $1000

they do not believe that the barrel has been lined

I will post everything on the longarms forum as soon as i can.

Hi KCSO----------------i have plenty of stock material and the equipement to recreate the stock--the though of bringing the gun back to life apeals to me---------i'll lightly clean the bore and see if its reasonable to consider being functional

Thanks everyone for the feedback !!!!!!

The search continues

Dave

[dave roelle]

Gentlemen:

First my apologies to Dean D----------------a little gentle cleaning obviously shows that the barrel has been lined-----I just couldn't see the witness line well enough by eye these additional pics tell the tail.

The screws were loose and the wedge pushed out with a thumbnail so i had a peek at the barrel and the lock------------nothing obvious on the inside of the lock---some parts there are numbered so a bit more toothbrush work may turn up something.

The pics of the barrel and breach area show a maker and perhaps a rifle number or last two date digits ????

The metal works while showing signs of some corrosion in the past are not really in to bad shape

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN0371.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN0371.jpg.html)

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN0374.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN0374.jpg.html)

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN0376.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN0376.jpg.html)


http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN0381.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN0381.jpg.html)

Dave

[fouronesix]

That close up photo of the muzzle helps. Now it doesn't look so much like a liner seam... possibly a decorative scribe line? With a line on each side of the ring of starburst punches. Strong light and a lupe could maybe tell for sure.

That photo of the bolster (second from bottom) looks more and more like an arc weld :(

Still think it either had the bolster blown out or the barrel may have possibly started life on a flint gun??

[dave roelle]

I'll scrub a bit on that section that appears to be a weld, i agree that it looks suspicious.

I'll also clean the cobwebs off the inside of the lock in the morning and get a clear pic----that may shed some light on the lock.

Thanks again for the help

you folks have a safe new years eve

Dave

[StrawHat]

Lot of gunsmiths bought locks and used them in rifles they built. Many bought barrels, not all the gunsmiths made every part. If you have the material and ability to make a replacement stock, I would carry it a step farther and build a shootable version of this rifle. Having restored quite a few old shooters, I find it is sometimes easier to build a replica!

[bob208]

after seeing the better pics. I would say that the barrel came from another rifle possibly a flint lock. the bolster is welded on where a drum or flash hole would have been. as I said the lock came from a shot gun. I have a few with shortened barrels and other modifications to make them shoot and be usable.

remember some people were using muzzleloaders up to about the 1920's. they were easy to get or make cheap to buy powder and shot for.

[dave roelle]

Hi bob:
Thanks again for the feedback this is the last set of pictures--------the lock and the rear area of the barrel-------

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN0384.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN0384.jpg.html)


http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN0383.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN0383.jpg.html)


http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN0392.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN0392.jpg.html)


http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN0396.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN0396.jpg.html)

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/drroelle/DSCN0401.jpg (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/drroelle/media/DSCN0401.jpg.html)

Again many thanks for all of the insight------at least the mystery had some light shed on it.

Dave

[Dean D.]

After seeing your newer photos I'm disinclined to think it is a relined barrel after all. I think fouronesix is most likely correct.

I'm a relative newbie to all this stuff but from what I've read many of the gunsmiths in the Ohio area used bought barrels and locks. I'd have to say someone spent a bit of money on that rifle at one time or another due to the "wedding ring" inlays near the breach. Not a common feature on low end guns usually. I'm betting the folks at that website I mentioned will be able to tell you which gunsmith built this gun and it's approximate age from parts and furniture styles. Patchbox designs and accents are often trademarks of each gunsmiths work.

It's good that you had it looked at and appraised but I'd warn you that the actual value to a collector may be different. There are some highly specialized collectors for these guns, you never know when you might have that rare one of a kind made by that special gunsmith. Not saying that's what you have, but it's always possible. ;)

[dave roelle]

Thanks again for the reply Dean------------------------------if it were a Sharps i would be in more familiar territory.

Hope those folks on the longrifles get back from holiday next week and approve my request for membership.

Rest assured i will bring whatever i find back to this thread to close the loop and let everyone know whats what

Keep well and stay safe

Dave