Case forming dies Sources

[Dframe]

Not sure where exactly to post this so if this isn't the place mods please move it. I've become interested in case forming for some obsolete calibres. Do we have a place for discussions on this topic? AND the big question, where does one obtain forming and reloading dies for these non standard calibres.

[Ickisrulz]

http://www.ch4d.com/dies/forming

[GRUMPA]

Well.....you got the right spot alright. But!!!.....What your asking about has a bunch of answers depending on what you want to do. Sure you want to get into the wonderful world of case forming but each cal requires it's own techniques, which will require something a bit in the unique category.

Depending on the case you just might find the dies you need, but expect to alter the dies slightly for that perfect result. Not 1 set I have ever bought was good as is, I needed to alter them slightly to get what I'll call the desired results. Well I take that back the 22 Rem Jet dies I have didn't need to be worked but they could have been made better.

If you have any machining back ground and access to machines your a step above most. If not be prepared for the never ending issue of empty wallet itus. Most of the forming and so on I do with a tremendous amount of research and having to alter pre-existing dies for the results I'm after.

I needed to make my own form die for the 300 Blackout shot shell I'm currently making, I figure I have the only 1 on the planet that forms that because I had to make it on my own.

And I form cases almost all day every day, I make a bunch of different types that are in the Vendor Sponsor section of this site

[Kent Fowler]

http://www.huntingtons.com/

Bring the deed to your house and your first born.

[Dframe]

hoping to make 43 spanish, 7.7 Japanese, and 38/45. I've read extensively about case forming but up till now have not tried it. No I have no access to machine tools and no expertise in how to operate them. I was hoping to be able to buy acceptable form dies from a reputable manufacturer. Is that kind of a **** shoot?

[Doc_Stihl]

CH4D makes some nice stuff. RCBS is great if you can afford it.

[GRUMPA]

The ones you mention I have never even thought of to be honest. The 1 commonality I do come across is the need to perform a reaming operation on. Most of the ones I do the outside of the case seems to be OK with the inside of the neck being to small which requires the neck to either be reamed or the neck turned.

Here's the BIGGEST issue I come across.

Gauges first and foremost are almost impossible to locate. Something like the LEWilson case gauges in what your trying to make are not available in everything. I've tried to get them to make a couple of gauges which they seem to never have the tooling for, so that's a dead end. Unless you happen to have the weapon on hand to use as a gauge your doing OK to a point.

There's 1 I had to make my own gauging for and that was the 22TCM case. Having never thought of forming what your trying to do I would have no actual advise, meaning if the dies you get will be OK as is or not.

[dbosman]

For forming dies one of the questions is
"do I need one just to say I shot it?"
Under a hundred to put it back into hunting use?
Or possibly thousands as I'm going to buy a bunch of these.

For just shooting a couple of times, many cartridges can be formed well enough with sizing dies you or you and a couple of buddies have. Load them down, fire, reload. Singly loaded you probably don't need to worry about neck tension.
Any good machine shop can make you a Lee style loading setup, though.

For dozens to small hundreds, buy a forming die if you ever happen to see one. That's a great reason to go to lots of gun shows.
Or, have someone make you a squeeze forming die. Cut the donor brass to length, tap the case into the die, or use a vise. Tap the sized case back out from the other end. Load. Shoot. Neck size by not tapping the case all the way into the die. Neck thinning may or may not matter. Any good machine shop can make you a Lee style loading setup.

For lots of cases, find the correct forming dies or have dies made for each step of the process. Neck thinning will probably be an issue. For thousands of case, get a group together and order a production run of brass. Your loss will be the gain of others.

[dbosman]

Dframe, what is it you're looking for?
Unless it's a collectors rarity someone here can probably help.

[Dframe]

I think I can acccomplish most neck reaming with my Lyman trimmer and the proper cutter and pilot.
I'm using the Handloaders Manual of cartridge conversions for start up information on the forming operations. I'm only beginning to see the expense of this but there is a challenge and the fun factor of doing something nobody else I know does. Also I can provide brass for some friends who currently have none, or very limited numbers of cases.

[EDG]

I think current members can provide some information on case forming operations that they do.
I have a spread sheet with the neck diameters of about 100 dies that I own. Perhaps a sticky with an excel file could be maintained to record standard die internal dimensions. This would provide a table for case forming members to use.

If you are familiar with case forming techniques and existing dies you can form many, many cases with existing trim dies , FL sizers and even neck dies and seater dies. Once you get the case sized enough to fire form you can often get by by just neck sizing and using a convenient seater die.

Useful forming dies might be found in cartridges you would not expect.
Think long tapers for initial or secondary body diameter forming.
Think short and fat for pushing the shoulders back.
If you cannot find the right short, fat die think about getting a die body cut off to length.
Most trim dies are .010 larger in the neck than the corresponding FL die.

Some of the dies I mention below are not cheap and easy to find but are dies I have managed to scrounge over the last 40+ years

For the .30-06 case head

.358 Win and even shorter is the .357 Auto Mag.
7.92 Kurz (this is a short fat 8mm)
.308 Win
7mm-08
.260 Rem.
.243
250 Savage FL, forming and trimming dies

You could also add the 7BR and 6BR dies to this list though I do not own then. They are short and fat.

For belted magnums these are short and fat
.350 Rem Mag
6.5 Rem Mag

I will add that sometimes the body of a FL die will be a little too tight.
A seater die body may be large enough since they are cut large enough to accept fire formed and neck sized cases.

For guys with a lathe a 7/8-14 thread B7 bolt is a forming die blank.

[Dframe]

That sounds great. I probably would never have thought of cutting a die off shorter for forming operations. The sticky sounds like an incredible idea.

[EDG]

Dframe
If you have case you want to form you might just post here.
I am sure someone has formed it or has investigated forming it.

[GRUMPA]

I'm using the Handloaders Manual of cartridge conversions for start up information on the forming operations. I'm only beginning to see the expense of this but there is a challenge and the fun factor of doing something nobody else I know does.

I just got 1 of those books myself recently, although informative there are other ways of accomplishing the same end result. For instance: I've made 11.7x51R cases from 45-70 brass and they don't tell you that. Also a person can make 300 Whisper from 223 brass if they just ream the neck or turn the neck, I opt for reaming. In the beginning it's more or less overwhelming with the vast amount of knowledge out there concerning this type of an undertaking, cost does factor into it but the rewards of making something from something ordinary and having it work right is rewarding in it's own way.


That sounds great. I probably would never have thought of cutting a die off shorter for forming operations. The sticky sounds like an incredible idea.

I do just that on some of what I do, but....don't be fooled there's more to it than just that. Annealing being the first thing that pops in my head is rather important in a lot of ways that often times gets overlooked. And while I'm at it if you actually need to cut a case shorter....make sure it's deburred prior to any forming operations.



Dframe
If you have case you want to form you might just post here.
I am sure someone has formed it or has investigated forming it.

That's sound advise, it can save you time and aggravation in the end and save a lot of time researching a project.

The one thing I miss most of all is a small lathe to do some of this with. I'm forced to do a lot of things by hand and one of these days I'll finally get one. But in a way I'm kinda glad I don't, I'm busy the way it is and there's only 24hrs in a day and I live on solar power so when the sun goes down I'm limited as to what I can do.

[EDG]

Dframe -
a set af 38/45 forming dies sold on ebay about 2 weeks ago - another set might turn up but I doubt it.
You might have to modify or make these.
The 7.7 Jap can be formed with just the FL die or if you want a die to cut off the cases then a trim die can often can be found used. Otherwise look at RCBS retailers or CH.

The 43 Spanish is not much of a forming problem if you can find the basic brass.
If you can just buy basic brass and form with the FL die or buy ready to shoot brass.
The .43 Spanish trim die is available from CH.

http://www.captechintl.com/products.php?cat=15&filter=.43%20Spanish

Believe it or not you can often find exactly what you want with google and an hour spent searching the web.
You may have to play with your search terms but you might find the item you want 50 pages into a search. I managed to find a set of like new 6.5X53R Dutch Mannlicher dies with a trim die for $45 like that.

[Wayne Smith]

I'm not sure but the first places I'd be looking for brass would be Huntington's and BACO. It wouldn't surprise me if you found your brass already made up. Look at Graf's too, they sell 7.7 Jap ammo. I'm quite sure BACO has your 43 Spanish brass available. Go to Dave Davidson at CH4D for dies. I have a 10.5x47R chamber that I made a chamber cast of and sent it to Dave. He told me mine was different that the other 23 10.5x47R's he had! That was in the days before standardization. Mine was made in Stettin, Germany between 1885 and April 1, 1892. I was able to get 9.5x47R brass from Huntington's and fire form it to fit, Dave made me a set of dies.

[Dframe]

Thanks for the helpful suggestions. I've already been to the ch4d website for information about forming and reloading dies. Ouch! Even there they are NOT cheap. I'll look at Grafs too but have never heard of BACO. Are they a brass company?

[Powder Burn]

I've called RCBS and they will not have any 7.7 Jap trim dies in the near future. I may have to give CH4d a call. They have 7.7 trim dies and also some blanc dies. Good thing I took a peek in here. Great info.

[dbosman]

Die sets are currently on eBay.
Lee makes a case length trimmer that is in stock at several places.

[EDG]

BACO is Buffalo Arms.


Thanks for the helpful suggestions. I've already been to the ch4d website for information about forming and reloading dies. Ouch! Even there they are NOT cheap. I'll look at Grafs too but have never heard of BACO. Are they a brass company?

[Wayne Smith]

BACO is Buffalo arms and EDG said. They have a huge list of available brass.

[Dframe]

Just took a brief look. HUGE selection of brass. Thank you

[birddog]

First choice would be RCBS then on down the list of others. I have a set of CH4D dies and quality is excellent. Good luck!!
Charlie

[Artful]

Check you local library - See if you can get a book by Major George Nonte
The Home Guide to Cartridge Conversions

http://www.amazon.com/The-Home-Guide-Cartridge-Conversions/dp/0882270052

[Dframe]

Thanks, I already have the late great Major Nontes book. For what it's worth I met him briefly once at a gun show. He was just browsing like I was. That moustache was hard to miss. I blubbered for a moment and said I was pleased to meet him. He was very gracious. He was also one of the most knowledgable gun guys in the world, before his untimely death

[kootne]

Don't know if they are still available, or if they're any good but Lee makes (or made) .43 Spanish 2 die sets. That brass can be formed from .348 Win. but the head diameter will have to be swaged & trimmed most likely, then fire formed. Rim thickness is probably too thin but it is possible to form that forward to increase rim thickness. Best have a lathe if you are going very far down this path, probably cheaper/easier/faster to get them from BACO.
kootne

[Dframe]

I'm going to look at BACO. They seem to have brass I need, albiet quite pricey.
I have neither access nor knowledge of how to operate a lathe, though I'd certainly like to learn.

[EDG]

BACO like almost everyone else is out of stock on a lot of brass.

[Dframe]

I found a roundabout source, and got some (Lee) 43 Spanish dies ordered. Still working on brass. The great part about Lee dies is they include the shell holder. I think (always a little dangerous) I can use the Lee dies for forming 43 Spanish, from a basic case. Next is to have my buddy slug his barrel and find an appropriate boolit and some data.

[badgeredd]

I found a roundabout source, and got some (Lee) 43 Spanish dies ordered. Still working on brass. The great part about Lee dies is they include the shell holder. I think (always a little dangerous) I can use the Lee dies for forming 43 Spanish, from a basic case. Next is to have my buddy slug his barrel and find an appropriate boolit and some data.

From my experience in forming 43 Spanish, I wish you luck. Because one has to swage the base down in diameter, it is difficult at best. I'd get a RCBS shell holder if you plan on forming brass for 43 Spanish...Lee holders for that cartridge are prone to breakage. My personal advice would be to bite the bullet and buy BACO formed brass, or buy the expensive Bertram brass. or try to find some Jamison brass. Another company that has appeared is Captech International and they have taken up the Jamison line of brass.

I've formed brass for many firearms and one of the most dificult is the 43 Spanish. Perhaps an arbor press and a set of expensive form dies would make it easier. My 2 cents worth....

Edd

[fguffey]

http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/2010_SpecialOrder.pdf

Click on the link above, forming dies start on page 8.

Then there are universal forming dies, problem, a universal forming die does not exist and there is no listing for universal forming dies. my favorite forming dies are universal.

F. Guffey

[Dframe]

OUCH!! $100 for a forming die!
Looks like I'm gonna have to take badgeredds' advise and get some already formed brass. Seems in the long term to be a far easier way to go. I didn't realise how difficult the brass was to form.