Unusual jacket/core sources

[kawalekm]

I've got Sport-flite dies to make .224 rimfire jacketed bullets and C-H handgun bullet swaging dies, both used in a RockChucker press. I have some ideas for homemade jackets and cores and thought I'd ask here first before re-inventing the wheel. Here are three ideas I thought about.

After forming .22 jackets from rimfire cases I though I could dip each jacket in molten lead (I do have some pure lead) to form the core. After cooling, I would run the core/jacket into the swaging die to make the finished bullet.

I have a .32 caliber core mold. Instead of droping the core into a store-bought jacket, I thought I might try electorplating the core with copper, then swaging the final bullet to shoot in my .357. I could then make jacketed hollowpoints. I have a source of cupric sulfate, so I can make my own plating solutions.

Can the .40 S&W case be used for .44 mag jacketed bullets? The case head typically runs .424 to .425 inches and a case filled with lead weighs about 275 grains. If I dipped fired .40 cases in molten lead, filling them, they would be annealed and have a bonded core. Could that be then swaged up to make a .429bullet? I am thinking that the hot lead would make the brass dead soft, but would it still be too thick for swaging?

Does anyone else have novel ways to prepare cores or jackets?
Thanks all,
Michael

[floodgate]

kawalekem:

Have you been through both Dave and Richard Corbin's on-line books, or talked to them about your ideas? They are said to both be very helpful. (As a total beginner in swaging, I haven't worked up enough nerve to approach them myself.) You've got some innovative thinking going there; keep us posted! I have done a bit of copper plating, but not in heavy enough coats to serve as jackets. I know this IS done commercially, though.

The Zinc-Washer-Base (henceforth, 'ZWB') and Half-Jacket ('HJ') handgun boolits have a reputation for still leading heavily, the ZWB's unless VERY closely matched to groove diameter (and maybe even then), and the HJ's because of the amount of lead exposed above the jacket. Since, if one already has an investment in supplies of the washers and HJ's, they should make at least serviceable gas checks ('GCs'); I wonder if Liquid Alox, "White Lightning" chain lube, or Johnson's paste wax would make them at least usable at reasonable loadings. Anyone have any ideas or - especially - experience here?

I'm just barely getting going in this new-to-me field, and am overwhelmed with both the resources available and the options to explore. And I PROMISE to use cast cores - at least now and then - to keep this "on-topic".

floodgate

[Johnch]

Can the .40 S&W case be used for .44 mag jacketed bullets?
Michael

Well I use 40 S&W cases as bullets , normaly cases that are past their prime or questionable range pick up
I seat them base up in a 44 case with a lite load of Red dot
With a lite crimp in the extractor grove

Sort of a super lite hollow base wad cutter

At 25' they shoot decent
At 50' they are still decent , but the groups open up a lot ( might be me though )

A freind has me save 3/8 ID copper tubing scrap for jackets of swaged bullets
No idea what cal


I though about using 45acp cases for my 480 Ruger , but I sold it and droped the idea

45 ACP cases probely could be run thru several sizing dies to reduce them to .458 or .452 for 45/70 or 454/45 colt bullets

John

[454PB]

After forming .22 jackets from rimfire cases I though I could dip each jacket in molten lead (I do have some pure lead) to form the core. After cooling, I would run the core/jacket into the swaging die to make the finished bullet.


Interesting idea.


I have the Corbin set for making .22 jackets and FLGC's. It came with a core mould, which I never liked. I bought 50 pounds of lead wire and made my own core cutter, which greatly improved both quality and quantity. Yor idea might work, but with the rounded bottom on the formed jackets, you'll need some sort of holding tray to set them in after filling. Also, I expect you'll see some scale form on the hot jacket that will have to be cleaned off before swaging.

[Red River Rick]

After forming .22 jackets from rimfire cases I though I could dip each jacket in molten lead (I do have some pure lead) to form the core. After cooling, I would run the core/jacket into the swaging die to make the finished bullet.

I have a .32 caliber core mold. Instead of droping the core into a store-bought jacket, I thought I might try electorplating the core with copper, then swaging the final bullet to shoot in my .357. I could then make jacketed hollowpoints. I have a source of cupric sulfate, so I can make my own plating solutions.


Michael



Your idea sounds like a “Core bonded style bullet”, and would probably work well if you could control the exact amount of lead being placed in each jacket. I’m doubtful that by just dipping the reworked case/now jacket into molten lead would result in very consistent bullets, weight wise.

The one crucial part of swaging “J” bullets is the fact that all the cores must be the same weight. The other thought is, if the cases are filled full with lead, then when the jacketed core is placed in the ogive forming die, the lead is forced upwards towards the nose. With the jacket being full of lead, the end result would be one heck of a PSP. Normally when the cores are seated, the amount of lead within the jacket is usually below the top, and not completely filling the jacket.

I tried the copper plating idea using the barrel or tumble plating method. It was far cheaper than electro-plating and besides, the electro-platter told me that where ever the bullets touched the basket or each other during the process, there would be a void.

The tumble plating seemed to work well enough but it banged the sh*t out of the bullets and knocked off all the nice sharp edges. It also increased the bullet dia. by approx. 0.002” – 0.003”. I did run some of these bullets back into the swaging die, after the fact, and the results was very good. The bullets emerged from the swaging die looking like a solid copper bullet. No more dimples, all the edges where crisp and sharp and the hollow point was opened back up to its original dimensions. As good as or better than any factory bullet.

I did try re-swaging some plated 0.429 RNHP in the 0.452 die using similar nose and base punches, but the amount of ‘Bumping Up” was to much, which resulted with the copper plating cracking. Starting off with a bullet say approx. 0.005” smaller, then plating and re-swaging in the correct size die would provide better results.

I’ve added a few pic’s of some 44 cal RNHP bullets that have been barrel plated. They have not been re-swaged and the rounding over and slight deformation is evident. The other pic’s are of other swaged bullets that I’ve made, all for use in sabots. Another pic shows a 40 cal swaging die with the nose and base punch used to make the bullet in the foreground, my own workmanship.

Just some info before you get too involved in swaging. Good Luck.

RRR

[Bullshop]

454pb
Say you wanna trade off that core mold, long as yer not using it?
BIC/BS

[Bent Ramrod]

Paco Kelly wrote of his experiences in Africa where he filled .30 Carbine shells with molten lead and used them as bullets for game shooting in a .35 Whelen. Strictly a makeshift, and he didn't try to close the cavities to a point. But for his purposes, it worked. I'd be a little leery of trying it in a revolver, though.

[454PB]

454pb
Say you wanna trade off that core mold, long as yer not using it?
BIC/BS

Since it's part of the set, I don't want to trade it off. Thanks for the offer!

[Utah Smitty]

I tried the copper plating idea using the barrel or tumble plating method. It was far cheaper than electro-plating and besides, the electro-platter told me that where ever the bullets touched the basket or each other during the process, there would be a void.

The tumble plating seemed to work well enough but it banged the sh*t out of the bullets and knocked off all the nice sharp edges. It also increased the bullet dia. by approx. 0.002” – 0.003”. I did run some of these bullets back into the swaging die, after the fact, and the results was very good. The bullets emerged from the swaging die looking like a solid copper bullet. No more dimples, all the edges where crisp and sharp and the hollow point was opened back up to its original dimensions. As good as or better than any factory bullet.

I’ve added a few pic’s of some 44 cal RNHP bullets that have been barrel plated. They have not been re-swaged and the rounding over and slight deformation is evident. The other pic’s are of other swaged bullets that I’ve made, all for use in sabots. Another pic shows a 40 cal swaging die with the nose and base punch used to make the bullet in the foreground, my own workmanship.

RRR

Your comments on plating lead bullets interests me a great deal. I have been told that you cannot electroplate lead, but apparently you know of some methord of plating lead bullets... care to share it with us, or direct us to more information?

TIA,

Utah Smitty

[Red River Rick]

Your comments on plating lead bullets interests me a great deal. I have been told that you cannot electroplate lead, but apparently you know of some methord of plating lead bullets... care to share it with us, or direct us to more information?

Utah Smitty:

Rather than hijack kawalekn's thread, send me a PM and I'll try to help out.

RRR

[kawalekm]

Hi Utah Smitty
I consulted a text on electroplating at our university library and it has ranking of what metal can plate what. It indicated that copper can be electroplated onto lead, though copper can not be plated onto aluminum. I thought I could use this to my advantage. I could make the cathode out of a sheet of aluminum (Coke can) that the bullets sit on, nose down. The annode would be a coil of solid copper wire, suppended above the bullets. The resulting plate would hopefully migrate to the lead bullets, but not also plate onto the sheet aluminum.

Michael

[jhalcott]

It definetly CAN be done, BUT electroplating lead bullets is a lot of work. The copper sulphate solution is a hazardous material. You have to have a heat source and a DC current source. The bullets must be completly degreased before you start to plate them. They have to stay in solution for a certain amount of time.The plating WILL increase the bullet diameter several thousandths.Know where you can get rid of the waste material BEFORE you start. DO NOT DUMP IT IN THE GARDEN

[wonderwolf]

I remember reading about the inventro of the .450 Alaskan Harold Johnson using .45ACP brass as and swaging I think cores into them and using those for the brush rounds up in Alaska.

This idea has been sitting in the back of my head ever since I read the article in one of the big bore books I have. .44magnum cases are closer to .458 than 45ACP which is .473 and the head is .480. But .44mag cases are precious...so .45acp it is. I'm thinking boat tail the head a little on a lathe or make a little drill adapter. Take the .446 Paper patch mold I have for .458 (420gr and a 500gr slug) drop them in the case and swage it. I've only read and thought on the idea. Use a lee push through sizer and make my own top punch. Its an idea still in the works. I would really like to try this sometime. I wonder if you can heat treat the whole thing after its swaged. Would make the case softer and the lead harder? or would you have to anneal the case before hand...probably a better idea that way I guess.


As far as the .40S&W goes looks like a bump/squish die would need to be made.

I've also wanted to try the .22LR swage thing but I need to barrow dies from a friend who has them (sitting in dust...tsk tsk)

Edit: also if using centerfire pistold cases ....primer in or out?

[joejr]

i take 40s&w roll the neck in a little with lee 357 sizing die,run them through a lee 429 sizing die,fill with birdshot and seal with silicone caulking,they weigh around 180 grains.11.2 grains of unique cci 300 lpp,they shoot pretty good in my s&w 629 classic 8 3/8 barrel

[wonderwolf]

i take 40s&w roll the neck in a little with lee 357 sizing die,run them through a lee 429 sizing die,fill with birdshot and seal with silicone caulking,they weigh around 180 grains.11.2 grains of unique cci 300 lpp,they shoot pretty good in my s&w 629 classic 8 3/8 barrel

oh thats good, how well they work? pics plz :Fire:

[joejr]

http://picture 019

[joejr]

http://picture 019

[joejr]

wonderwolf,they shoot pretty good at 50' 1.645"col with fairly heavy crimp.
1'm going to shoot this computer if i can't figure out this post photo thing,sorry

[2152hq]

Hello!, new to the forum and swaging. I have cast quite abit in the past and have recently gotten back to it a little at a time.
The post caught my eye as I have been wondering about the use of cartridge cases as bullet jackets, specificly the use of 38Special cases for 375cal rifle and the same bullet sized down for use in 9.3mm to .366. The rim of course has to go, perhaps a sizing die could shear that off as well as do any needed sizing?. For a core, and to keep this on the cheap,,I have plenty of 38sp boolits, different weights, styles. 38Sp boolits always seem to be available at shows where misc. reloading supplys tables might be. To form a bonded core what would you think of placeing a lead bullet (or 2 W/C's, etc) into the cases on a heat source and bringing them up the temp, melting the bullet inside the caseing and annealing the brass at the same time. Each 'core' would be the same weight obviously , but would they have to be unlubed? Or would the lube better flux the lead into bonding to the brass? Maybe the 38Sp case is too long to begin with but it seemed like a decent idea! Thanks for any comments..Great forum,,lots of info

[Bullshop]

If yer lookin at makin 375's try miking a 223 case head.
BIC/BS

[floodgate]

454PB:

Is that one of the Lyman core mould sets? I just found a "22S" one to match my "30S", "38S", "44S" and "45S", and complete my set, with contributions from some of the gang here.

floodgate

[floodgate]

2152hq:

I think both Corbins describe these, and Dave, at least, used to make - and may still make - shearing dies for shaving off rims and even belts from magnum rifle cases, as well as sizing dies, core seaters and nose formers. Dave's book "(Re-)Discover Swaging" - now out of print,but he's considering an updated edition - goes into this in some detail, with good illustrations. They make good big-game bullets, especially for African game.

floodgate

[454PB]

Floodgate, the core mould came with the Corbin dies, and was made by them as far as I know. It casts 4 cores at a time and is adjustable for weight. I'll take a digital picture of it and post here latter.

[454PB]

I took a couple of pictures of the core mould this P.M. I can't find any makers mark on it anywhere:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v16/eddard49/Corbincoremould.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v16/eddard49/Corbincoremould2.jpg

[shaggy357]

Richard Corbin has all kinds of bullets sitting on the window sill in his shop. Many are made from cartridge cases. From the .22s made from .22 jackets up to .50 BMG rounds. Contact Richard thru his website for more info. http://www.rceco.com/

Steve :)

[gitano]

I have made jackets for .510 caliber bullets using standard magnum rifle cases like .338 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag. I turn the belts off leaving a .512" OD and cut to length. I then insert an Oregon Trail 405-grain .458 cast bullet in nose-first, and press it into the bottom of the "jacket". I do nothing else to "bond" the core to the jacket. I then run them through a .510" Lee bullet sizer. These bullets have been shot into some fairly nasty (rocky) stuff, and the jackets have yet to separate from the cores. I have left the primers in and I have left them out. It doesn't matter except to final weight. I'll post pictures of "before" and "after" when I get them up on photobucket.

Oh yeah, Corbin does make a belt-shearing die. I forget the price.

Paul

Here are the pictures. There is no relationship between the "before" and the "after".

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/Range%20Report%204-3-07/UpDown.jpg

[Adam10mm]

Disclaimer: I'm still reading about swaging but haven't made the plunge yet. I will very soon.

RE: Pouring lead into jackets

One idea is to perhaps cut a mold with cavities to hold the jackets while you pour lead into it and cut it with a sprue plate. Think of it as a regular mold where you place the jackets in one side, close it, pour the lead in the sprue plate like casting, then cut the sprues.

It would be just like casting only you'd be dumping jackets with the cores out. Put the jackets in the mold, pour lead, cut sprue dump jackets out of the mold then repeat. When you swage to size the excess lead should bleed out?

Just a thought.

[georgeld]

IF I'd do it that way, would get some acid to flux the jackets with first, then they'd be 'bonded' core's.

How would YOU control how much lead is poured in? IF filled flush, that'd be a bunch to bleed out when pointing them up. be much better to fill short, then point up the jackets I'd think. Shucks, there's no reason to even have a mold to slip the jackets in. Just set on a piece of steel and pour til the approximate amount was in. IF there's too much. Get an end mill the right dia and drill it down to the right height core, then point them up. Shouldn't be any trick to do it that way and just pour the case's full.

Paul: Is that copper base I see a gas check?? IF so, why? Have you tried them without one? What's the difference? Have you tried them turning the rim off to make 'em boat tailed?

How's the accuracy? What charge you using? Full loads, or just plinkers so far?
Thanks for sharing.

[gitano]

George,




Paul: Is that copper base I see a gas check?? IF so, why?

Yup, it's a gas check. Those bullets were made using a file to abrade the belt down to size with the case chucked in a hand-held drill. And the swaging process was pretty ugly too. The cases I used didn't have primers installed, and I was concerned that the gas pressure might blow the cores out of the bore and leave the jackets. Even in the cases whose primers were still in place, I was concerned that the gas pressure might rupture the primer and blow the core out agin leaving the jacket. According to Dave Corbin, I have nothing to fear. I'm quite sure he is correct.

Have you tried them without one? Yup.

What's the difference? None - they're not necessary.

Have you tried them turning the rim off to make 'em boat tailed? Sorta. See attached pictures of ones I made this afternoon.

How's the accuracy?So far, as good or better than any of my cast boolits. About 3 MOA at 100 yds and less.

What charge you using? These bullets were made for an 1878 Martini-Enfield chambered in .50 Alaskan. The previous owner had it chambered for .22-.30-30. It was a bull barrel, so I had it rebored to .510 and chambered for the .50 Alaskan. However, the previous owner had drilled and tapped the barrel about 8" in front of the receiver for a screw to hold the forearm on. No problem when the bore was .223". However, it was a bit "iffy" when bored out to .510". Dan Pedersen did the rebore, and was satisfied with the amount of metal left as long as I "didn't get carried away". So... I keep the chamber pressure under 25,000 PSI. That's actually no restriction to me, as I don't load the 500-grainers much faster than 1700 f/s. At that MV I can shoot this thing all day. That said, I use 58.3 grains of Accurate 2495. Chrono's at 1710, and chamber pressure averages just over 21,000 PSI.

Full loads, or just plinkers so far? "Full loads" due to the above constraints. But I don't like the variability that is unavoidable when making bullets on a lathe instead of in a swage.

I've attached pictures of some bullets I made this afternoon. I went ahead and "boat-tailed" them just because you suggested it. In practice, I'm quite sure I wouldn't do that. You can see the rims in the recovered bullets, and they are fine. I just don't know how 'aerodynamic' the rim is. Again, I would [i]really[/] prefer swaging.

These cores were made from cast bullets out of Lee moulds: The 459-500-3R, the 515-450-F, the 515-500-F, and an RCBS mould the number of which I forget at the moment. I turned the shanks of the 50 caliber boolits down to about .455" and inserted them into the "jackets" made from turned 7mm Rem Mag case heads. The .459 boolit is simply pressed into the "jacket". The pictures should be fairly self-explanatory, but please don't hesitate to ask if I haven't been clear.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/Intermediate9.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/Finished5.jpg

The yellow numbers are weights, except that the "1s" should be "5s".

Paul

[georgeld]

Looks good, thanks.

Next time, would you PLEASE make your page smaller???
It's about three pages wide and scrolling back and forth to read it is a PITA.

Thank you,