Making swaging die set for making 223 bullets out of 22lr brass

[Flamethrower]

I am very interested in making a fell set of dies to turn 22lr brass into 223 bullets. I have access to a climate controlled machine shop filled with CNC turret lathes waiting to do my bidding.

Would there happen to be prints somewhere for all of the components of the set?

Thanks in advance.

[trevj]

Look (do a search) for the SAS Swage Die .pdf file. http://www.rtconnect.net/~wjmanley/SAS_Die_making/SASswagedie.pdf

LOTS of useful detail there.

Other than keeping to close tolerances in the final swage dies, and dealing with getting the point dies both to shape and smooth polished at the same time as getting them to dimension, most of the die is pretty straightforward stuff.

The two Corbin brothers both have swaging info on their respective sites. http://www.swage.com/ and http://www.rceco.com/

I think, but do not know for sure, that a fellow could look to buying a few custom sized carbide drill bushings, and build a lot of the loose tolerance stuff that surrounds them, for pretty reasonable money. Not as cheap as making your own hardened steel swage die 'core' parts, but an idea.

Cheers
Trev

[Flamethrower]

Look (do a search) for the SAS Swage Die .pdf file. http://www.rtconnect.net/~wjmanley/SAS_Die_making/SASswagedie.pdf

LOTS of useful detail there.

Other than keeping to close tolerances in the final swage dies, and dealing with getting the point dies both to shape and smooth polished at the same time as getting them to dimension, most of the die is pretty straightforward stuff.

The two Corbin brothers both have swaging info on their respective sites. http://www.swage.com/ and http://www.rceco.com/

I think, but do not know for sure, that a fellow could look to buying a few custom sized carbide drill bushings, and build a lot of the loose tolerance stuff that surrounds them, for pretty reasonable money. Not as cheap as making your own hardened steel swage die 'core' parts, but an idea.

Cheers
Trev

Thanks for the info.

Not looking to make cheap low end stuff. I am looking at making a quality, accurate and well made finished product.

[trevj]

Thanks for the info.

Not looking to make cheap low end stuff. I am looking at making a quality, accurate and well made finished product.

Buy some of the commercial dies and have a look then. It will like as not, open your eyes.

It does not have to be very flashy or built to NASA specs, on the outside, to make a good bullet and work well.

Frankly, I was somewhat appalled at the general level of finish of my Corbin set. But the more I looked at it, the more I realized that the effort in finish went in to the parts that needed it. The rest got made as quickly and as practically, as possible, by all appearances. Most of the components appeared to have been made on turret lathes that were likely past their prime. And moving as fast as they could go.
The CH4D dies I have seen were not better.
Never seen a set of Blackmon dies, but the guy is a Dentist, who makes dies as a hobby/sideline, rather than a full time money making job. I expect they live up to his expectations.

So, what did YOU have in mind, if the products and information from, essentially, the entire industry in the US of A are not good enough?

You did start this by saying you wanted to build from 22 jackets, yes? You are headed in the wrong direction, if you are expecting to make dies to make match grade bullets out of scrap metal cases.

It's not magic. Save the close tolerance work for where it is required, else you spend your life trying to get the dies to look good, when you should be working on that after you get them to work well. If they work well, you will stay in the business. If the look good, you'll sell lots of them if they are cheap enough, then none at all if they won't make bullets the size they are supposed to.

Cheers
Trev

[Flamethrower]

Buy some of the commercial dies and have a look then. It will like as not, open your eyes.

It does not have to be very flashy or built to NASA specs, on the outside, to make a good bullet and work well.

Frankly, I was somewhat appalled at the general level of finish of my Corbin set. But the more I looked at it, the more I realized that the effort in finish went in to the parts that needed it. The rest got made as quickly and as practically, as possible, by all appearances. Most of the components appeared to have been made on turret lathes that were likely past their prime. And moving as fast as they could go.
The CH4D dies I have seen were not better.
Never seen a set of Blackmon dies, but the guy is a Dentist, who makes dies as a hobby/sideline, rather than a full time money making job. I expect they live up to his expectations.

So, what did YOU have in mind, if the products and information from, essentially, the entire industry in the US of A are not good enough?

You did start this by saying you wanted to build from 22 jackets, yes? You are headed in the wrong direction, if you are expecting to make dies to make match grade bullets out of scrap metal cases.

It's not magic. Save the close tolerance work for where it is required, else you spend your life trying to get the dies to look good, when you should be working on that after you get them to work well. If they work well, you will stay in the business. If the look good, you'll sell lots of them if they are cheap enough, then none at all if they won't make bullets the size they are supposed to.

Cheers
Trev

I am not saying anyone's dies are not good enough. Not in the least. The direction I want to go is to make a quality set of dies for a start to finish kit that does not cost $700-$1200 per set. Now of course I won't know what my cost is until I really get going and find out what I will have into them. Material cost, machine time, lap time etc. It could be a wash, or it could be that I can make a quality product for less money and deliver on time.

[BT Sniper]

"The direction I want to go is to make a quality set of dies for a start to finish kit that does not cost $700-$1200 per set."

I used to think Corbin's dies where expensive till I tried to make my own. Making a couple sets might not take you to long but making "production" is a whole different ball game.

Make a set, see how long it takes, see how much effort and labor it takes and then see if you can still offer quality products for under the price you quoted. You might be surprised in the end how much labor it really is. Ask any one of the many here that have made themselves a couple point form dies. If it could be done quickly and cheaply RCBS, Hornady, Lee etc. would have already done it.

Good luck, give it a go. Least you could do is make yourself a set of dies and learn a good bit in the process. We all start somewhere.

BT

p.s. with all the tooling and expenses after last years sales I profited less then minimum wage. Can you put in that much work for so little. Corbin and Blackmon are not getting rich from making dies I can tell you that! I also invested $60,000 up front and continued to put profits back into the company for the first two years. Want to make a small fortune? Start with a large fortune :)

[R.Ph. 380]

want to make a small fortune? Start with a large fortune :)

lol....

[Prospector Howard]

Did he even say that he wanted to make dies to sell as a business? It's a little hard to tell, but it looked to me like he wanted to make a set for himself and not wait forever to get them and spend a fortune.

[Flamethrower]

"The direction I want to go is to make a quality set of dies for a start to finish kit that does not cost $700-$1200 per set."

I used to think Corbin's dies where expensive till I tried to make my own. Making a couple sets might not take you to long but making "production" is a whole different ball game.

Make a set, see how long it takes, see how much effort and labor it takes and then see if you can still offer quality products for under the price you quoted. You might be surprised in the end how much labor it really is. Ask any one of the many here that have made themselves a couple point form dies. If it could be done quickly and cheaply RCBS, Hornady, Lee etc. would have already done it.

Good luck, give it a go. Least you could do is make yourself a set of dies and learn a good bit in the process. We all start somewhere.

BT

p.s. with all the tooling and expenses after last years sales I profited less then minimum wage. Can you put in that much work for so little. Corbin and Blackmon are not getting rich from making dies I can tell you that! I also invested $60,000 up front and continued to put profits back into the company for the first two years. Want to make a small fortune? Start with a large fortune :)

That is what the learning process is all about. I may find that it is to cost intensive to do, and choose to stop right there. My situation is certainly different them yours, and things may be different. You certainly have a lot more experience in swaging dies than I do. Yes we all have to start somewhere.

There is a reason Hornady, RCBS and Lee don't make there own. It has nothing to do with it being easy or hard to make. The first 2 are bullet manufacturers. Why would they add a "buy once" product that would reduce sales of another? They also understand there is a very limited market for this product as it relates to the big picture. Lee is a reloading equipment manufacturing company. I live 10 minutes from them, and have had many conversations with their engineers and on occasion Mr. Lee. This is and won't likely ever be a product in their line. Not that I always take their word for it, but I feel they are genuine in what I have been told.

"Can you put in that much work for so little."

The first 2 years of business I worked 14-16 hours a day 7 days a week. Invested a lot of money and time. If I was lucky I turned a small profit. Most of the time I broke even. On a couple occasions I lost money. It's the price of starting a business of your own, with your own money. This is why I do the things I can make money at and have stopped doing the things that yield little profit that requires large amounts of work.

I am looking to make money and not get rich off a product with a limited market. I think since I have started my business, every year I have paid myself about $.05 an hour. I put every dollar I can, back in my company for improvements, tooling and tech.

In the end, if I only end up with a set of dies for only myself, I am ok with that.

[Prospector Howard]

OK, so you do want to try to make a business out of it. Hope you can do it. Since I've been on this site there's been half a dozen that I've seen that said they wanted to make a business out of making dies, and were never heard from again. I'd love to see others make a go of it and have more manufacturers to choose from so, I rish you rottsa ruck.

[Flamethrower]

OK, so you do want to try to make a business out of it. Hope you can do it. Since I've been on this site there's been half a dozen that I've seen that said they wanted to make a business out of making dies, and were never heard from again. I'd love to see others make a go of it and have more manufacturers to choose from so, I rish you rottsa ruck.

Thank you. I am sure there are many that have tried and chose not to continue. I have a well established firearm based business already. This would be something I would consider an add on for it. If it's not time/cost effective then I likely won't continue to do it. Of course I see many different opportunities with this product, so there several things I am looking at as it relates to these dies.

[Prospector Howard]

In your original post you said you were looking for prints to be able to use to make the dies. Drawings are OK, but your best bet if possible would be to find someone that has a quality set to examine and basically copy like I did on the first set that I made. It sure helps to see everything in person to really understand how it all works and to get internal dimensions of the dies as it relates to each step.

[Flamethrower]

In your original post you said you were looking for prints to be able to use to make the dies. Drawings are OK, but your best bet if possible would be to find someone that has a quality set to examine and basically copy like I did on the first set that I made. It sure helps to see everything in person to really understand how it all works and to get internal dimensions of the dies as it relates to each step.


Yes you are correct. That is a very good way. I am going to have to find someone that is willing to loan me a set for a short period of time. I am a very tactile type person and like to see and feel things that I am going to make.
I make lots of my own tooling and fixtures for my own business. It tends to be cheaper and I get exactly what I want. I often would like to have had the item in front of me that I wanted to make, but that usually never happens, so I make things from pictures and use what I have.

Where did you get the ones you used to copy from?

[Weber]

Flamethrower, go for it!

If I had the equipment I sure would. If you need a tester let me know!

[trevj]

Yeah, by all means give it a go.

But up front, your intended aims (make a dies to make bullets from rimfire jackets) is at odds with the "Not looking to make cheap low end stuff. I am looking at making a quality, accurate and well made finished product." statement, as the price points that the target audience are willing to pay are really quite different.

The guys that want to make rimfire jacket bullets, are looking for exactly that. Inexpensive. If you can make a quality product inexpensively, you will essentially take the entirety of the market from the others.

Make as good a product as you can, aim for benchrest and plan around using real jackets. There's more money there to buy a short run product, IMO.

If you look at what you can get in the way of carbide drill bushings, my money says you cannot make them as accurately or as cheaply. Get a couple bleed holes burned into them, and you have an accurate, round, wear resistant core die. One less tough to make part, available cheap (for what value you get, IMO). Last place I looked at online that sold them, would custom make them, in tenths of a thou dimensions.

Same basic bushing in a slightly larger diameter would make a great start on the sizing up die. Still going to leave you with all manner of issues to get around, trying to make it work.

Now, the reality is that you can or can not follow that path as you see fit.

How's this for a thought though. Speer, RCBS, and all the other bullet makers, have pretty good in-house knowledge of what it takes to make swaging dies, yet they don't make them for mass market. That there tells ME that they do not see the market as being there. What I know about swaging, tells me that the market for guys that are willing to lay out the money is pretty small. Larger these days, if only due to the particular brand of stupidity and greed that seems to be running the US market these days, but that too will pass, IMO, and the price gougers and hoarders will both groups be left in the past. Again. Swaging is a bunch of work, and most folks don't want to bother. Many of the ones that do, want to because they want to make a better than available bullet.
A few of us are just in it for the recreational aspect, like casting, it gives us pleasure, though not cost effective.

Make a set or two of dies. You have about the best info that is available as far as drawings go. You pretty much have to work out how to make use of the info yourself. Start sketching, then make some chips.

You might want to contact Username "danr" and have a chat with him about the joys of production. He started out offering a "complete' die set for $155. The price went up a wee bit. Long thread here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?111634-going-to-start-making-224-swaging-dies&highlight=danr Good reading material.

I doubt very much that it'll all go smoothly. I wish you the best of luck, though.

Cheers
Trev

[Weber]

155-900, that's a price increase!

[Red River Rick]

:popcorn:

[Flamethrower]

Yeah, by all means give it a go.

But up front, your intended aims (make a dies to make bullets from rimfire jackets) is at odds with the "Not looking to make cheap low end stuff. I am looking at making a quality, accurate and well made finished product." statement, as the price points that the target audience are willing to pay are really quite different.

The guys that want to make rimfire jacket bullets, are looking for exactly that. Inexpensive. If you can make a quality product inexpensively, you will essentially take the entirety of the market from the others.

Make as good a product as you can, aim for benchrest and plan around using real jackets. There's more money there to buy a short run product, IMO.

If you look at what you can get in the way of carbide drill bushings, my money says you cannot make them as accurately or as cheaply. Get a couple bleed holes burned into them, and you have an accurate, round, wear resistant core die. One less tough to make part, available cheap (for what value you get, IMO). Last place I looked at online that sold them, would custom make them, in tenths of a thou dimensions.

Same basic bushing in a slightly larger diameter would make a great start on the sizing up die. Still going to leave you with all manner of issues to get around, trying to make it work.

Now, the reality is that you can or can not follow that path as you see fit.

How's this for a thought though. Speer, RCBS, and all the other bullet makers, have pretty good in-house knowledge of what it takes to make swaging dies, yet they don't make them for mass market. That there tells ME that they do not see the market as being there. What I know about swaging, tells me that the market for guys that are willing to lay out the money is pretty small. Larger these days, if only due to the particular brand of stupidity and greed that seems to be running the US market these days, but that too will pass, IMO, and the price gougers and hoarders will both groups be left in the past. Again. Swaging is a bunch of work, and most folks don't want to bother. Many of the ones that do, want to because they want to make a better than available bullet.
A few of us are just in it for the recreational aspect, like casting, it gives us pleasure, though not cost effective.

Make a set or two of dies. You have about the best info that is available as far as drawings go. You pretty much have to work out how to make use of the info yourself. Start sketching, then make some chips.

You might want to contact Username "danr" and have a chat with him about the joys of production. He started out offering a "complete' die set for $155. The price went up a wee bit. Long thread here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?111634-going-to-start-making-224-swaging-dies&highlight=danr Good reading material.

I doubt very much that it'll all go smoothly. I wish you the best of luck, though.

Cheers
Trev

Thanks for the info.

[Flamethrower]

I can appreciate the amount of people telling me it won't work. lol

snip

[Red River Rick]

Not Really.

If you feel you can make the dies then go for it, you have nothing to loose other than some wasted material and time.

Just because you have access to CNC equipment, that doesn't make it any easier. It's the tooling required to make the interior cavity for the Ogive forming die, that counts. The rest of the dies are simple to make (actually anyone with a lathe and some EXPERIENCE can make them).

I make all my own dies, but then again I should be able to after spending the last 30 years as Tool & Die Maker.

RRR

[Prospector Howard]

Flamethrower, a friend of mine had a set of dies that I borrowed for a short time. That was over 12 years ago, so I don't remember what brand they were. I also had some help from another friend that was a machinist on my first set. It does seem to be a recurring theme here. Once someone finds out how much work it is to make a set of dies, they drop the idea of trying to make it a business. I have COUNTLESS hours into making dies and tools for this hobby.

[Flamethrower]

Flamethrower, a friend of mine had a set of dies that I borrowed for a short time. That was over 12 years ago, so I don't remember what brand they were. I also had some help from another friend that was a machinist on my first set. It does seem to be a recurring theme here. Once someone finds out how much work it is to make a set of dies, they drop the idea of trying to make it a business. I have COUNTLESS hours into making dies and tools for this hobby.

I understand completely. As I had said before, if I find it to be less than cost effective I will drop the project. No big deal. I understand that people here that do this for a living tend to feel threatened every time someone says they are going to do this. That should just drive them to make sure their product is better than the rest. I also believe that competition helps to keep prices competitive.

In every moment I sit here wondering if this is even worth the effort, the market seems to be a small one. Even so it seems from what I have read, there is enough demand that the current makers cannot keep up with demand and are months and months behind.

I also understand that people here don't know me from Adam, and have the tendency to just think I am some uninformed rube that doesn't know squat about machining, marketing, or business. This is just untrue, but it is peoples natural intention to push back any way they know how when they feel threatened. It's all good.

What has spurred this desire to make these is my desire to have a set for myself and not wanting to pay $900-$1200+ to get them. If I am going to go through the trouble to make my own in a professional machine shop and go through all the trouble of measuring and programming machines to make one set, why not use the knowledge to make many sets to recoup my costs to make my set and perhaps make a quality product that MAY be more affordable for others. It's absurd to think that a quality product can't be made and be affordable. It's obvious that special reamers and tooling will need to be made. This is one of the unknowns for me at this point. I know raw material costs are reasonable and it will be the tooling and the time to finish each set that will end up setting the price point.
I am not unicef and won't be doing this for free. If I find that the price others are charging are what I am seeing for my product then I probably won't move forward, unless I can make a far superior product. That may be unlikely. I have seen finished bullets made by BT's dies and they are outstanding.

That said, Howard I appreciate the support, and the support from others.

[jmsj]

Flamethrower,
I say go for it. If you are doing this to expand your knowledge base and sell some copies if it works out, I think that is great. I make/machine a lot of things just to see if I can. I believe the warnings from some of the members is to caution you from investing too much capital into this project. I would tend to believe this is done out of kindness and no other reason.
I have been thinking of building a set for myself as well. I would like to swage my own but the high cost of the dies is out of reach for me. I have been trying to work out all the details also. Please keep us updated on your progress
Good luck, jmsj

[customcutter]

Flamethrower,

I say go for it too. I'm no machinist, but I'm trying to learn how to operate my lathe and milling machines. I had never done threading on a lathe until I started working on my dies. So I see it as a learning experience. The point forming die will be the hardest. I think part of the key, if you're thinking of production, is being able to make reamers and laps to size, with repeatable ogives. Cane Man used factory bullets as laps for his point forming die. So I'm probably way off base.

There is a lot of information in the sticky on this forum. Something about "Rifleman" articles. Some of the articles have specs on ID's of several of the dies.

Edit: Heres a link http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?152893-Rifle-Magazine-Vol-1-6-Article-Wanted

Keep us posted on your progress.

CC

[Nickle]

Flamethrower, another that says if you want to do it, go for it.

We've pretty well discussed the downside, mentioned the negative things most people don't think about, until they bump into them later. So, you know the possible downsides, got what seems to be good reasons to go for it, then do so.

[contender1]

I am one of the newbie folks trying to learn about swaging & making my own J-word boolits out of spent 22 cal casings. I too have some machining experience, and a good friend who is a gunsmith & has the equipment. BUT,, I'm learning that it's not as easy as I thought.
That does not mean I'm giving up, I'm just trying to learn.
I acquired a Herters swaging press, and I want to make/buy dies I can use with it.
From what I've learned, a de-rimming die/tool won't be too hard to make. Nor will the swaging core die. But, the nose forming die seems to be the biggest problem die to make.

So I too say; "Go for it" and share your knowledge. Many of us love to learn new stuff.