ROTFLMAO hysterically!

[bhn22]

I've been out of work for about three months. Opportunities are kind of slim in my area unless I want to flip burgers, or become a social worker. Anyway, I had to accept that It may become necessary to relocate in order to make a decent living, and a head hunter I'd worked with in the past called me yesterday, asking if I'd consider relocating..... to California!

Not now, not ever, no way, no how, are they crazy!!? Even a day later, I still laugh out loud whenever I think of it. Six figures man!

[jmort]

I would do it for a specific amount of time as a means to an end, but this place do blow big time.

[uscra112]

By all accounts you can go north a state or two and they'll be begging to give you a job.

[richhodg66]

I'm with you, I'd live out of my car and beg in the street before I'd leave Nebraska for California.

[Beekeeper]

Lets see what color was itOh thats right this one.
I find it funny that you would refuse a 6 figure job because it is in California. Unemployment must be pretty good where you live.
I live in California and have for 50 plus years. The Range is 15 minutes from my door , wages were excellent when I was working and all e
aminities were available if you wanted them. But hey if you want to live on welfare and unemployment that is your choice. Me I would live in the sewer rather than that.Oh well so much for the sarcasm font



beekeeper

[Sweetpea]

Beekeeper, you took it all gradually...

For the rest of us, it would be no different than throwing us into boiling water.

You should come visit America sometime, you might like it!

[Wag]

If you have to make a temporary transition in order to put some money in your pocket, nothing wrong with California. Of course, just have an exit strategy with a timetable to get back out.

--Wag--

[MtGun44]

I was born in Ca and have lived in 20 or so different places. I have friends and a few remaining family in the state, so I visit periodically, and do business trips but actually turned down a great job offer due to their fascist antigun and general political environment. I understand entirely not being willing move to Ca.

Bill

[richhodg66]

I have never, will never and would never work, live and pay taxes in a state that went blue in 2008 and 2012. I'd a lot rather tighten my belt and live hard for a while to stay amongst sane people if that's what it took. This lead ban in California is just the latest, geez, you might as well live in Venezuela with the kind of socialist BS you have to put up with there.

[Love Life]

I'd move to California in a heartbeat for 6 figures. Long distance shooting just about anywhere, absolutely beautiful state, and tons of culture.

I'd do what I do now and save my pennies, and when I had enough I'd move to another state. A state close enough to still visit California. Or I would actively seek job opportunities in another state while I bankrolled my paychecks from California.

Freedom is subjective and changes with perspective.

For instance: People look at the southeast as free states with great gun laws. Yeah, they have solid gun laws/freedoms (except NC as you have to pray for permission to buy a pistol or revolver), but public lands are low. I tell you, nothing gets me more excited than some time at an overcrowded 100 yd range on the east coast...

However; in California I never had an issue buying a firearm I wanted. The 10 days didn't stress me as I already had other firearms, and when I got my new guns I just drove 10 minutes out into the desert for some good fun shooting.

Psh. Rant and rave on California all you want, but even with the crappy taxes and restrictive gun laws I would still rather live in California than in ANY eastern/south eastern state.

Shutting the door on an opportunity is never something to laugh at.

[cbrick]

6 figures sounds pretty good until you figure out the cost of living there not even considering taxes, 6 figures there is far less than most places. Then of course there is the fact that everything and I mean everything is highly regulated and getting worse by the month. Then consider leaving your guns back home because at least some of them are illegal in CA. Want to buy ammo in LA county, sure you can, right after you give up your fingerprints. Anyone know how many cars are stolen in LA county every year . . . 50,000. Nope, not a typo . . . 50,000. I could go on for pages but no need, I escaped & moved back to America.

Rick

[jmort]

^ What Love Life said. California is the girl you date till you find the girl to marry.

[Sweetpea]

I had a chance ten years ago to move to Tacoma, and double my income, while moving more into a management role.

After I figured the change in the cost of living, the difference was negligible. Add in the rain, the millions more people, the two hour commute each way from somewhere affordable, and did I mention rain?

I don't friggin think so...

Everybody has to figure it out for themselves, but I totally understand not wanting to move to a libtarded state.

[richhodg66]

Don't live there now, but grew up in S.C. I went shooting on our range pretty much every weekend (the club s still going) never a crowd. No public land? Look at a map of S.C. and see how much of that state is U.S. Forest Service land, I think you'd be suprised. Taxes, low. Governmental interference, practically non existant. Good people for the most part. Only downside really is too many people just like a lot of the country east of the Mississippi.

I live in Kansas now and like it better. I'm amember of a good range now I can go to any time that's ten miles from the house. As for hunting and public land, not as good as S.C. but where I lived fro the past 19 years and still own a house, I have access to Fort Riley and also a whole bunch of Corps of Engineers land around Milford and Tuttle Creek Lakes, bottom line, way more than I can effectively use and I hunted multiple days this frearms deer season on said public land without seeing another soul. During muzzle loader season, I almost never see anybody else out there. Taxes here are a bit higher than the deep south, but I'm betting a lot lower than Kommiefornia.

Go ahead and live amongst the fruit and nut club, I won't fight anybody for one square inch of that state.

And, oh by the way, niether S.C.'s or Kansas' electoral votes went to Obama in '08 or '12.

[Sweetpea]

^ What Love Life said. California is the girl you date till you find the girl to marry.

But you don't want to give the girl you marry crabs from the girl you dated in the meantime...

[MUSTANG]

Could I get a Job paying the big $$$$ in Kaliforniiiia? Yes, pretty fast. One of our son's works for a rather well known Silicon Valley company that almost everyone has heard of. In one of my gun safes are the M-1a and Ar-15's I gave him for gifts because they are now illegal for him to have where he lives in silicon valley due to Kalifornia Legislative actions. I think I'll just stay retired, pass on the big $$$$, and keep my Freedom and Liberties. But each must make their own choice and live in a state they find acceptable (both the condition of their life and the geographical presence).

[Love Life]

If you use a good shampoo, the girl you marry won't get crabs.

[Sweetpea]

I think you know what I meant...

How many of us have been stuck in a bad situation, with no easy way out?

I've moved myself across the country, and pulled myself up by my bootstraps, and I get by, even prospered compared to some.

Moving to kali for me would be like walking into hell just to warm up from the cold.

[Love Life]

I can understand that, Sweet Pea.

As I said, freedom to an individual is subjective and can be different based off of perspective.

I've lived all over the good ol' USA. I've lived in Michigan, Minnesota, Texas, Georgia, California, Nevada, North Carolina, and Alabama.

There are only 3 places on that list I would choose to live in. Nevada, Minnesota, and it's a toss up between Texas and California for 3rd. On the one hand Texas has better firearms freedoms and lower taxes, but begging for a place to hunt/camp/hike really isn't appealing. California has bummer gun laws and really crappy taxes, but it is still a sportsman's paradise for a person who loves the outdoors.

Back to the OP. A 6 figure bird in the hand, is better than 2 dreams in the bush. Thousands upon thousands of E1-E3's have lived in southern California and their pay isn't anywhere near 6 figures.

[Sweetpea]

Seems we've lived in some of the same places...

I could do Texas, but the no public land thing would drive me nuts.

Northern kali would be very preferred over southern, same as Nevada... I hate Clark county!

Where were you in Michigan? The political climate in my home state leaves a lot to be desired.

Imho, its kinda hard to beat where I'm at... Nice folks, and a church on every corner, even if it is the same church!

Also, anytime you have kids, you have to figure them into it...

[smokeywolf]

6 figures sounds pretty good until you figure out the cost of living there not even considering taxes, 6 figures there is far less than most places. Then of course there is the fact that everything and I mean everything is highly regulated and getting worse by the month. Then consider leaving your guns back home because at least some of them are illegal in CA. Want to buy ammo in LA county, sure you can, right after you give up your fingerprints. Anyone know how many cars are stolen in LA county every year . . . 50,000. Nope, not a typo . . . 50,000. I could go on for pages but no need, I escaped & moved back to America.

Rick

Would depend on what kind of shape you're in financially.

Everything Rick says is gospel. Plus, if you sell your house there's real estate commissions and then there's moving expenses.

I would think twice before letting the bank have my house, but if I were accustomed to living in a State that still allows a little freedom, I'd have to be pretty desperate to move to Kali.

Although I'll miss the weather, I'm counting the months right now until I can follow cbrick's example and get the heck out of Kali.

smokeywolf

[bhn22]

***/U/ME Just for the record, I'm not collecting unemployment. I've sold a few things that I didn't need, and picked up the remaining funds doing odd jobs.

California is a unique place. Ever hear of a "California Mortgage"? It's where you take out a loan to pay the interest payments on a home. No principal is paid at all. The banks count on the property value rising for you to actually build equity in the house. When you sell, you get the difference between you "purchase" price, and your selling price. In Nebraska, we call that "renting", and we get to call the property owner when something needs fixing.

No. $100,000.00 a year is not cause to move to California. As Rick noted, the cost of living is horrendous there. Ever been to Lake Tahoe? Everything on the Nevada side is clean, well kept, and beautiful. The California side kind of looks like the back roads of Guatemala, pot holes, poor patching in the roads, unkept properties, weeds, and a funny smell when it's even moderately warm out.

[Love Life]

I visit Lake Tahoe about once a month, and have done so for the last 3 years. It has always been clean and beautiful. Both sides.

Same for Mammoth, the June lake area, Bridgeport, etc. Pristine and incredibly beautiful. Plus the Mono County Sheriff has no problems issuing a concealed carry permit for California....

It would be cool if the state of Jefferson ever cam into reality.

SOCAL and NORCAL are two different worlds, but both beautiful.

I think Nevada should trade Clark County for Mono County. Straight across trade.

[taiden]

I have never, will never and would never work, live and pay taxes in a state that went blue in 2008 and 2012. I'd a lot rather tighten my belt and live hard for a while to stay amongst sane people if that's what it took. This lead ban in California is just the latest, geez, you might as well live in Venezuela with the kind of socialist BS you have to put up with there.

Select states that voted blue in the last two elections:

Maine
Vermont
New Hampshire
Oregon
Virginia
Florida

I'm pretty sure these all have very reasonable gun laws. Several are very libertarian in nature. Blue isn't bad, just well hated by the gun crowd IMO.

[dragon813gt]

Means to an end. Assuming I would be able to sell my house, get all my possessions to CA and find a new home I would nut rule it out. Of course the money would have to be right. As someone who modifies cars CA's restrictions along those lines bother me more than the firearm laws. Because it would only be a temporary stop. But having three vehicles that would be illegal to drive there is a very big issue for me. C.A.R.B. restrictions are the vehicle equivalent of all the dumb firearm laws.

[richhodg66]

Never lived in any of them and no plans to.

[gbrown]

bhn22--you do what you gotta do. Everyone can give you advice, but your values and how you want to live is what it is all about. Some advice sounds good, some sound senseless. Salaries around the D.C. area sound good, too, until you look at cost of living and real estate prices. A 6 figure salary (low end) is like average, nothing like it would equate to in other areas.

[Bzcraig]

^ What Love Life said. California is the girl you date till you find the girl to marry.

What these guys said. No one is saying make CA your permanent home, just use the circumstances to your advantage. Keep your Neb residence status and enjoy an extended very well paid vacation. Stay away from the LA & SF areas and you will enjoy the climate, people and sights.

[smokeywolf]

What these guys said. No one is saying make CA your permanent home, just use the circumstances to your advantage. Keep your Neb residence status and enjoy an extended very well paid vacation. Stay away from the LA & SF areas and you will enjoy the climate, people and sights.

He probably can't pick and choose his areas. Has to go where the work is. If I could pick and choose my area of Kali, I'd likely be up there with you; maybe working up on the mountain around Shaver.

smokeywolf

[btroj]

If you move from Nebraska to California I would have to look into seeing you declared mentally unstable.

[Bzcraig]

He probably can't pick and choose his areas. Has to go where the work is. If I could pick and choose my area of Kali, I'd likely be up there with you; maybe working up on the mountain around Shaver.

smokeywolf

I spend a lot of time in the Shaver area during the summer to escape the heat and do some fishin. You are right Smokey it is a beautiful area.

[smokeywolf]

We've had lots of happy times at Camp Edison.

[MT Gianni]

Sorry but if there is no work other than flipping burgers, social work or 6 figures in California I am there in a heart beat. I may not stay longer than 18 months. I would not sell my place here but if that is where I need to go to feed family, provide for retirement and pay my debts I am on my way. If it is just for money I turned down double my wage in 07 to work out of Houston, TX & $25K raise to go to Eastern Wyoming and stayed right where I am. I have as much security as one can hope for, decent hours and a good vacation package.
If all there is to do in NE is flip burgers or social work I advise the OP to get some training in Social work.

[starmac]

As far as I'm concerned a Cali job offer makes flipping burgers anywhere in a free state sound pretty good. I tried Cali back in the 70's, and got back to Texas as soon as I could afford to. I even managed to drive cross country and it was 22 years before I got snookered into taking a load out there. I unloaded on a friday afternoon PAID for a secure place to park, watched a hooker divide her time between three trucks while I was on the same phone call. After two hours, called my wife and told her to quit looking for a load, I would be home in the morning.

On the trips I would have to go to Cali, I wouldn't even buy a bag of potatoe chips, I couldn't get out of paying road taxes to bounce across their highways, but I was determined to not give them any more support, than the law required.

[waksupi]

Considering the wide range of employment available in the oil patch, I would try that, before the left coast. No matter the occupation, I bet there is an opening in the patch somewhere. Take a mobile home, and actually make some money even working 8-9 months out of the year.

[Bzcraig]

I visit Lake Tahoe about once a month, and have done so for the last 3 years. It has always been clean and beautiful. Both sides.

Same for Mammoth, the June lake area, Bridgeport, etc. Pristine and incredibly beautiful. Plus the Mono County Sheriff has no problems issuing a concealed carry permit for California....

It would be cool if the state of Jefferson ever cam into reality.

SOCAL and NORCAL are two different worlds, but both beautiful.

I think Nevada should trade Clark County for Mono County. Straight across trade.

It seems some folks repeat the rumors they hear not what they have first hand experience with. M1 & AR15 are still legal in CA. Lake Tahoe is beautiful all around it. Central CA is very conservative and in Fresno County the Police Chief and Sheriff will issue CCW as long as you just don't put 'cause I want one' on the application. In fact the Sheriff (Margaret Mims if you want to google her) has been know to carry CCW applications with her to hand out. I am the first to admit that LA & SF politics have a strangle hold on state politics but as Love mentions The a State of Jefferson is but one example of a county opposed to the politics of the state. CA has politics screwing it up but the uninformed spreading of rumors doesn't help. Now....having said that....barring a miracle.......I will be leaving eventually.

[Bzcraig]

We've had lots of happy times at Camp Edison.

Great place to camp! Ever make it back to Edison Lake, Mono Hot Springs?

[plmitch]

Some interesting opinions here......

[smokeywolf]

Great place to camp! Ever make it back to Edison Lake, Mono Hot Springs?

Nope! Because of work, my vacations were limited to 1 week at a time and it was a nine hour trip each way pulling the 5th wheel. With no jake brake I always kept it in 2nd gear coming down that 11% grade south of Shaver.

[jaystuw]

In Nebraska tomorrow morning its going to be overcast and the temp will be 10 or 12 degrees. That same morning in southern cal I will be letting the cat out and walking out to get the paper in my shorts and barefoot, because its going to be a sunny, mild 77 degrees! That, in and of itself is reason to pay cali a visit, I'll add another; southern California has the 6th largest economy in the world. What That means is that any of you young mid-western guys with the work ethic and pluck that I know you have, can come to cali and with a little luck and a lot of work and a ton of sacrifice can do well here. We won't turn you blue and make you into a lefty, it doesn't work that way. Its really just a mad scramble to make as much money as you can. And what if the weather, the beach, the night life and the girls are not enough and you get tired of the rat race? Well, go back home. tell your friends that stayed put that cali sucks! And then visit your local real estate agent and buy a house in your hometown for cash and own it outright with the money you earned and saved. That, is what California is all about. Not politics, money. Make the money in cali, then buy the house in Nebraska. jay

[freebullet]

This is an amusing thread. I will have to say plain and simple- I would rather shoot myself in the face than step foot in comifornya. I turned down an all expense paid business trip to comi. I turned down buying into a profitable local franchise because they pay a royalty to a comi based hub. I won't visit family that lives in comi either.

Low six figures in some parts of comi and you would be better off flipin burgers here. You should be able to find a job in or near a city here if you network.

Don't be fooled though. The demoncrap/ enslavement/ anti freedom party tries to gain momentum here whenever possible. Our liberal media had an aneurysm when our new conservative mayor got her concealed carry permit, and allowed another person be authorized to carry inside our city hall.

[jaystuw]

I have soaked in mono hot springs and canoed across Edison lake to the pct trailhead. I had a cabin in the dinkey creek area until it got crushed by a tree, still have the lot. I'd like to do something with it but my wife likes Honolulu and wants to push more money that way. She would like a better place but I don't think we will make much traction on that. Honolulu real estate has really gotten over the top expensive lately. We are at the base of the punchbowl now and I realistically don't expect us to do any better than that. jay

[cbrick]

6 figures to people in many areas of the country sounds great, live high on the hog but it's nowhere near what it sounds like if your in CA. Here I bought a house on an acre a couple of miles out of town, the purchase price of this house wouldn't make a down payment on a house on a city lot in CA. What I pay per year in property taxes here would not pay one month property taxes in CA for a house on a city lot. This past September I was on the phone with a friend still stuck in CA, I mentioned that in August my electric bill jumped up to $125.00 because of the A/C. He said he was trying to figure out how to pay his $925.00 August electric bill. Here if I want to cut down a tree on MY property I do it, many places in CA that would land you in jail, you only "think" it's your property.

Again, this is just a small sample of the reasons to not live there. For those that think the weather is worth all that more power to ya. I get plenty of good weather here, not always but mostly and I don't need to be a doting, well behaved little comrade to enjoy it.

As for taxes in CA they have a very simple philosophy, you have some money, cough it up they want it. You don't have any money? Get some, they want it.

Anybody mentioned the crime rate in CA? Don't think the crime rate affects you? Here I pay auto insurance on two vehicles for less than half what one vehicle cost me in CA and it's with the same insurance company. Yep, you go right ahead and enjoy the weather.

Rick

[btroj]

I'm not going there for 7 figures!

Quality of life means something to me and mine is far better here in Nebraska. Less crime, less govt, lower taxes, and far fewer people.

We have entire counties with under 1000 people, I like that.

[randyrat]

I have relatives living in Cal. I doubt they will never move back. They are young and don't mind 1-2 hour commute to and from work on mind boggling insane traffic, lines of people everywhere you go, not a good place to own an air cooled vehicle/motorcycle.

Where else can you climb a mountain, ski in the snow, ride a doom buggy in the desert, and swim in the ocean all in one day , in theory.
There are no speeding tickets in Cal. only parking tickets, per say. They don't realize the political skimming game that is going on. It's a big money grab/tax scheme on everything you do or own. But they make good money and sun always shines.

[Nazgul]

Left CA 15+ years ago. After a few years away, got a letter that they wanted taxes on any retirement I earned in the state. Had to pay a lawyer to find out they couldn't do that.

Don

[richhodg66]

Left CA 15+ years ago. After a few years away, got a letter that they wanted taxes on any retirement I earned in the state. Had to pay a lawyer to find out they couldn't do that.

Don

That's exactly the kind of thing I'd stay away from California for. I haven't spent a lot of time out there, got six trips to the NTC at Fort Irwin and one to San Diego when my son graduated boot camp, but everytime I picked up a paper, the lead stories were always gay rights and environmental restriction type of stuff. One could reasonably conclude that everybody in that state is either a militant tree hugger or buggery advocate. Life is too short to live amongst such types, the types of weirdos I never run into or hear about in small town Kansas.

By the way, if you include my military pension, I make six digits here and it goes a lot farther. WIfe has a good job too. Opportunities are out there, no need to ***** yourself out to a place like that to make a living

[cbrick]

Left CA 15+ years ago. After a few years away, got a letter that they wanted taxes on any retirement I earned in the state. Had to pay a lawyer to find out they couldn't do that. Don

Yep, the CA DMV has nailed my bank account for two years in a row since I left for license plate fees for the car and a fifth wheel RV that I don't even own any more. They don't notify you, when you check your bank account you see the money missing, call to find out what's going on and the CA Franchise Tax Board has nailed you yet again plus the bank charges $125 for a court ordered tax holding. Takes months to get it back. I'll see in a few months if they get me again for 2013, probably will.

They nailed a lot of people over CA state income tax on their pensions after they had left CA. Several years ago the state was sued over this and the state lost in every court they appealed it to including the incredibly libtard 9th.

But hey, weather is great! :roll:

Rick

[Wag]

Be assured, take advice from people who have at least lived there.

Many years ago (1993?), I was in a similar situation as OP and in order to put food on the table, I took a position in CA. Nowhere near six figures, either, and between the wiff and I, we never cracked that threshold, either. But we lived rather comfortably and had enough to even enjoy ourselves.

The original plan at that time was to stay two years and get the hell back out but we made friends, set roots fairly deep and the money was addictive. So we stayed, much longer than planned.

But when we left, we had enough to retire early, had we decided to do so. We didn't but the option was there. There is no doubt that if we had lived a much more austere lifestyle, we could have banked a lot more than we did and changed our circumstances to live, as it were, high on the hog.

I'm thinkin' that if you were to go, make the money for a couple of years, live very austerely, you could go back home, pay cash for your house and have your problems solved for some time to come.

There are NO objections which overcome the responsibility and the desire to provide for your family. Granted, I think CA is a last option but if there are no others, don't dismiss it. There are a lot of uninformed comments in this thread so far so evaluate it carefully, no with the bias and dogma being shown.


California is a unique place. Ever hear of a "California Mortgage"?

Those mortgages don't exist for residences any more and haven't for quite some time. Not to mention, even when they DID exist, you didn't have to take it but could still get a conventional mortgage.


As Rick noted, the cost of living is horrendous there.

Yes, but. . . .incomes are correspondingly higher. If you don't plan to live there permanently, rent a place. Live WELL below your means and bank the cash. Then get out. $100,000/yr will get you what you want if you work the numbers and do it right. As I said above, my wife and I didn't make anywhere near that much the whole time we were there and we did fine.


That, is what California is all about. Not politics, money. Make the money in cali, then buy the house in Nebraska. jay

Exactly. The weather has nothing to do with it. It's just a nice perk. The money can leverage you right up out of whatever issues you may be having.

Regardless of what you do, OP, I do wish you the best of luck. Keep us posted!

--Wag--

[Riverpigusmc]

Select states that voted blue in the last two elections:

Maine
Vermont
New Hampshire
Oregon
Virginia
Florida

I'm pretty sure these all have very reasonable gun laws. Several are very libertarian in nature. Blue isn't bad, just well hated by the gun crowd IMO.

As far as Florida, that statement is misleading. Our state legistalure is Republican. Our Governer is Republican. One out of two US Senators is Republican, the other is still a lost in space Dem moonbat. Yes, Blue IS bad..very bad. At one point, Dems and libs were for the working man and personal freedom. Now they are about government regulating everything, no personal freedom or responsibility, and theft via taxation to give to those who won't work in order to buy votes

[cbrick]

Blue isn't bad, just well hated by the gun crowd IMO.

Gun crowd? Yep, that's true enough BUT also deservedly hated by anyone that believes in freedom and the Constitution. Those are two things the blue crowd HATES. The Second Amendment is only part of it, Liberty and the right to choose for ones self are equally important.

Blue isn't bad? Only if you consider evil not bad! Only if you consider the destruction of the human spirit not bad. Only if you consider it your right to live off someone else's paycheck not bad. Should I continue? Blue in this country today represents socialism in all of it's evil incarnations. Blue doesn't believe in trickle down economics, they very much do believe in trickle up poverty and misery.

Those that believe socialism is a good thing should stop to consider that socialism and freedom are polar opposites and completely impossible to have both. It is very much one or the other. Pick one! If you think socialism is good and you get what you want your in for one h*ll of shock once you have it.

Blue isn't bad? What an incredibly un-educated and indoctrinated thing to say.

Rick

[w5pv]

I've been out of work for about three months. Opportunities are kind of slim in my area unless I want to flip burgers, or become a social worker. Anyway, I had to accept that It may become necessary to relocate in order to make a decent living, and a head hunter I'd worked with in the past called me yesterday, asking if I'd consider relocating..... to California!

Not now, not ever, no way, no how, are they crazy!!? Even a day later, I still laugh out loud whenever I think of it. Six figures man!
I understand,in the early 70's my wife told me that school started here at home and the kids would be enrolled and she was coming home I could stay or what ever so I packed and trucked.

[myg30]

I turned down job offers in Cali many years ago in the Santa Rosa and San Jose area when I traveled there for my job. While I was there it was so beautiful. Traffic in Jose was bad. The Rosa area was so awesome. Wine vineyards, farm land, less traffic. Ok so when I returned home and talked with the wife about moving and she didn't want to loose all her retirement benefits from her job she had. I started looking into the cost of living, real-estate, electricity and taxes. I found out the salary they offered then was sounding really good but compared to where I was living and my base pay then was really no better.
I had a job and found out that the grass was no greener on the other side. Only the weather was better.

Good luck in your decision, its a tough one. If you can survive where you are, I'd stay there. Everything will work out.

Mike

[olereb]

I worked all over CA for several years and thought it was a great place as long as the company was paying the bills and I got to go home to AZ every few months to play with my guns. It really is a nice place but I would never live there,i turned down several 6 figure jobs there due to the stupid high cost of living,taxes,gun laws,illegals,etc,etc. If someone is willing to relocate there are plenty of places to find work without having to move to a state with laws like CA,FL might not be my ideal place but the gun laws are good,taxes not to bad and here in the SW part of the state its very conservative.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

then!

[Love Life]

So what part of California was the job offer in?

[Recluse]

Gun laws are only one part of the equation I look at when considering other locales. Property taxes, vehicle regulations, how many permits or licenses or permission slips will I need, cost-of-living including utilities and food and other necessities, medical costs and then finally, the overall political and social climate.

And according to my mine and my wife's criteria, California fails more miserably than any other state in the U.S. west of the Mississippi River. I don't consider Massachusetts, Connecticut, Maryland, Delaware or Rhode Island part of the United States so they have never been in consideration.

I'll commit hari-kari before I live in New Jersey.

North Carolina has all but turned into the California of the eastern half of the U.S. It was already well on its way when we lived there in the mid-90's. Their problem is the same as ours in Texas, Georgia and Florida--all the damned yankees invading and infesting and insisting on changing things to be more like the craphole they fled from because crime, taxes, corruption and unemployment was too high.

We get a double-whammy in Texas and Oklahoma--not only do we get the damned yankees, we get the damned California loonies infesting us.

Not all Californians or yankees who move here are bad. We know a number of yankees and left-coasters who have moved here, settled in, fit in and you couldn't pry them away and get them to move back to CA or NY with a two-ton crowbar.

We refer to them as "Born-Again Texans."

BHN, instead of looking north (of Nebraska), I'd look south to the Kansas City area. We thoroughly enjoyed living there in the 90's and it's always been economically diverse with good employment prospects.

:coffee:

[southpaw]

Lets see

Fed- $21293.35
state- $6862.50
Rent- $9000 Thats $750 a month (kinda low)
Total- $37155.85

Add in the local tax, social security, medical, unemployment, retirement, disability and all the rest they take out of your check for you.

How much would the electric bill be? Is car insurrance higher? How about a car payment? What about feeding yourself? How much is it going to cost to move out and then move back?

Doesn't sound worth it to me when you have to check your freedom at the door.

Jerry Jr.

[cbrick]

Rent- $9000 Thats $750 a month (kinda low)

Kinda low? hehe, the area I left two years ago you couldn't rent a dilapidated one car garage for $750 a month. Apartment rent in the area started on the low end around $1800 per month for a one bedroom and went way up from there. Don't forget that the landlord is also paying exorbitant property taxes except he is not paying it . . . His renters are.

Groceries are far more expensive in CA because of the incredible amount and variety of taxes the stores are paying except once again, they are not digging in their pockets to pay those taxes, it's tacked onto every single item you buy.

$750 a month?

91920

Then of course there is this . . .

91921

Rick

[jmort]

Rents in So. Cal are crazy high. I assume Bay area/Silicon Valley are crazy high or worse. I forgot about our New Year's present to the illegals, driver's licenses. You guys are bumming me out.

[Love Life]

North Carolina has all but turned into the California of the eastern half of the U.S.

Truth. Nothing like asking for permission from the Sheriff, paying a fee to ask that permission, and being limited to only 5 handguns per year. Yeah, that's a whole mess of freedom.

I bought many handguns in California faster than I got them in "The South". I've always found that hilarious.

Ultimately it all comes down to personal choice. If it were me, and the job was in the city, then I would leave the family at home, get me a dive in the barrio (make sure insurance is up to date) and bankroll my cheese until I could leave.

If it is a job in Northern California, then rents are actually cheap-ish and bring the whole family to enjoy backpacking, hiking, camping, hunting, fishing, prospecting, skiing, and a bazillion other things. Man, if you could have only seen the area where Al, his wife, and my family had lunch. Just beautiful!

Where I live my rent is $850 a month and I get 4 acres, a house, huge garage, stable, etc. I'm 1 1/2 ours from Tahoe, 5 minutes from Lake Topaz, 3 Hours from Sacramento, and 8 hours from San Diego. If I want to see California, I do. Commuting distance and times grow as you get away from the major metropolis' of SOCAL, but it's so worth it.

[southpaw]

So, if you find a place for $1500 - $2000 then between rent and the goverment half of your check is gone. Sure glad I am on the this side. I guess if that is all you know but to move threre...

Jerry Jr.

[jmort]

"Commuting distance and times grow as you get away from the major metropolis' of SOCAL, but it's so worth it."

I was asked by family members why I live so far out and why not move closer to the city. No chance. I'll drive. I pay $675 and there is 30 acres to run around. 67 degrees right now and no neighbors that I can see/hear. Spend a lot of time looking at land in other states on the internet, especially Nevada and Arizona for when I can move on. My daughter finishes High School in about three years. Until then, I'll watch and wait.

[dtknowles]

I did not see two of what I would consider very important questions asked. What kind of work and in what city or town. If might be more important to me than others but for me right now, I am only interested in jobs I like, I will not work just for the money anymore. Many posters seem to treat states like they are just one place, all the same. My experience in Florida, Maine, Virginia, Maryland, Louisiana and California tells me that States have different regions with different lifestyles. Six figure income does not say much but my assumption is we are not talking a couple hundred K but more like just breaks into 100K mark which is not much in some areas of California, definitely not enough to qualify for a mortgage on a house in the San Jose area. When my employer was downsizing here in the New Orleans area they offered jobs in the San Jose area with modest pay raises but most people turned them down or took the jobs expecting to not stay long. My time in California was some of the best time of my life. I was shooting small bore hunters pistol at the local club. Sailboarding on Lake Lopez or at the beach in Santa Barbara, Skiing Mammoth and Tahoe. Going to Vegas, Tahoe, Reno. Running ATV's on the dunes a Pismo Beach. Doing winery tours. Running down to Ensenada and San Cantina in Baja. Even spent time in San Diego, LA and San Francisco and enjoyed it.

Look at the whole package and what is important to you and decide. I know things have changed since I lived there but I have been back a few times and yes it has gotten worse some places but some things have not changed.

If someone offered me an interesting job where I could improve my skills or learn some interesting now skills at a rate of pay where I could save at my current rate, I would be all over it. If you are worried that you would be contributing to the corrupt government you could put in some effort as a counter activist. They need some more right thinking people out there.

If I had kids I would be careful, kids have a mind of their own and California has a way of leading them astray.

Tim

[Duckiller]

If I replied to some of the comments in this thread I would be banned for life. There are lots of people that live in California that make much less than $100,000.00 per year. This is a large state and conditions and costs vary in different areas. People that have a $900+ monthly electric bill need to learn how to adjust a thermostat. If you can't bring your AR into California trade it of for a different model, only a very few are specificly banned. So you can't hunt with lead bullets, Barnes, Nosler and Hornady make approved projectiles. Shoot any not steel projectile at targets. Maybe if some of the cowards would move to California we could elect a few politician that have some sense and change some laws.

[smokeywolf]

jmortimer and I have somewhat similar experiences and points of view.
I've been driving a minimum of 40 miles each way to work since 1980. On the 101 and 405 freeways, that equates to 1 hour and 10 minutes in the morning (before 6:00 AM) and 1 hour and 25 minutes in the late afternoon. Over the 30 years that I drove to work in various parts of Beverly Hills, West L.A., Hollywood, Studio City and Glendale I spent 2 years and 2 1/2 months just sitting in the car getting to work and getting home.
During the last five years of work in Hollywood, it was costing me approx. $200.00 a week to commute. None of that $200.00 was tax deductible.
I commuted because living in or near the metropolitan L.A. area is just plain too expensive and too dangerous for a family with school aged children.

Los Angeles County means: higher crime rates (gangs), higher taxes, hidden taxes through artificially inflated garbage collection and Department of Water & Power rates, higher insurance rates, higher utility rates. There is nothing in Los Angeles County that is advantageous to raising a family.
Oh, one more thing, criminal aliens cost the legal tax paying residents of Los Angeles County $1,000,000,000.00 each year.

smokeywolf

[btroj]

Cowards? How are we coward so or avoiding a state with high taxes, lots of crime, expensive housing, and way too many people?

I can hunt with a bullet of my choice. I can avoid 200 dollar electric bills easily. I can buy a nice 1500 sq ft home for 150 K easily. I can drive 15 minutes and be in the country and not with thousands of other people.

I am sure I am not the only one insulted at being called a coward. I call it intelligence.

[Sweetpea]

:goodpost:

[smokeywolf]

I get the impression that Duckiller is equating living in SoCal to fighting a war and that if you choose not to fight his war, you're a coward.

[btroj]

Why fight the war if I can avoid it?

I don't care to move to Chicago, NY, Atlanta, or DC either does that make me worse than cowardly?

Many of us find that a very nice quality of life can be had with little of the hassle of over populated regions.

[cbrick]

That's me . . . Cowardly. Not a comrade but yep, cowardly. Smart too, I escaped. :mrgreen:

Just like the libtard philosophy, if ya have no argument to stand on simply start insulting.

Rick

[starmac]

Cowards, because someone doesn't want to move to a state fully controlled by libtards. WOW is about all I can say.

[onceabull]

Hard to see how a battalion of so-called "cowards " moving to California would be much help in Duckiller's "war".... Onceabull

[btroj]

But Rick, you fought the good fight for years, you aren't a coward, just war weary.

[jmort]

If there was some hope, I'd be marching every day. The state is lost, way too far gone. I would leave if only for the new law which forces my 15 year old daughter to share bathrooms with men who identify as women. This state is sick and perverse and controlled by public employee unions/liberals/fags. I'm just biding my time, and my 200 mile commute is a small price to pay while I wait.I was surfing through United Country, and you can get a nice house on a couple few, or more, acres for $50,000 to $75,000 in a nice Red State town. I can get acreage, 40 plus acres, in Northern Nevada or the Mountains of Arizona for around $40,000 and add modest home and be as happy as a clam. I'll die in a Red State if I have my choice.

[cbrick]

But Rick, you fought the good fight for years, you aren't a coward, just war weary.

The hand writing has been on the walls for years, Helen Keller could see it.

jmortimer is absolutely right, the state is completely lost. I fought hard & long for decades, voting of course but also letters, donations etc. all the while watching the state slide further & further into the sewer. There is zero chance it will ever turn around, it will only continue to get worse.

Rick

[Love Life]

Jmortimer- When are you buying Hoye Canyon?

I'm looking at spreads now in far northern Nevada, or possibly in Oregon along the Oregon/California border.

[jmort]

"When are you buying Hoye Canyon?"

If one of my projects works out in the near future, then could be next year when I get something somewhere. I have one crazy big idea I'm trying to bring to fruition and if that hits, then I'll take a chunk of Hoye Canyon. I know Arizona is not on your list, but check out some of the properties in the PM I'm sending you. Many allow RV living on large acreage for decent $$$. Small down and small monthly payment. Spent about two hours studying every listing.

[Love Life]

It's not just the Canyon that's for sale. There are 25 acre lots for sale on the walker with power already to them just beyond hoye canyon. Like 1/2 mile down the same road as hoye canyon. The dirt roads are kept well for most of the way ad we used it as a back way to hit Risue canyon instead of going down the 338. I think Pinion Pines Realty is selling the better lots. Those 25 acre lots are nice and levelish with many building spots and wide deep parts of the river. Good coyote hunting in that area to boot.

[jmort]

How much? I looking in $40k range

[Love Life]

They are asking a bit more than 40k. I believe 100k per 25 acre lot, but they have been on the market for the 3+ years I have been here and the price has dropped 3 times. Having power already justifies a huge portion of the higher price. When I looked at buying Hoye Canyon, the cost to run power to the nearest lot was 50k alone, plus the irrigation canal cuts one of the biggest hoye lots in half. The Canyon lots are very...vertical.

Nevada dirt near water isn't cheap at all, but value per dollar on the Walker river lots is very high depending what you're looking for. Just keep winters in mind. If we ever get normal precipitation again the roads would be hard to travel in the snow.

[jmort]

I would rather be off the grid if it will save me $$$. Solar works just fine. Water is nice and you pay for it. Wells work fine and I can live with a well and visit water.

[waksupi]

Sounds like Duckiller is the one who surrendered.

[bhn22]

So what if you have to give up things that are important to you, and compromise your principles?

It's a big deal to me, and the California lifestyle, the real one, not the one the beach Boys sing about, is not appealing to me at all. If I end up moving, I'll likely end up in Texas, Nevada, or Arizona. California need not apply.

[starmac]

(So what if you have to give up things that are important to you, and compromise your principles?)

This line of thinking has done wonders for the whole country.

[btroj]

Apparently in CA that keeps you from being a coward.

[RoyEllis]

JMHO, but if I owned the southern 50% of California....I'd trade it for a cr@p-eating dog just so I could shoot the d@mned dog.

[btroj]

If you had a cra@p eating dog you could eliminate 50% of southern CA!

[onceabull]

I was lucky enuff to grow up in No.Cal.during the good years... and would have no problem going back for some more outdoor adventures.. Love Life,If you can manage to,or ,later if you draw into another tour in the west, TRry this.. Unload the pack stock at Tom's cabin,& take off No. or N.W. (staying west of the Rubicon Jeep trail.. Can do a loop trip,or have someone move your horsehauler to a chosen meeting spot on the Soda Springs-Forest Hill Road..no doubt an active duty mountain Marine could do this shanks mare, but you will have more fun time with the equines. While all the wallhanger mulies in those days seemed to come from the Modoc country,there's bound to several dying from Old Age above Tom's cabin every year..CobbMtMac can tell you a fine bear shooting adventure in the breaks of the Rubicon.. I missed that one because,if recall is accurate,I was carrying the flag in Europe in keep the red hordes bottled up..:) Onceabull

[Down South]

This thread really took off. I would not want to have to move to Ca. But I would do it if I were offered a good job there. If I was holding an empty bag here where I live now with nothing in sight. If I had looked for something more than a few weeks and came up dry, I'd be gone.
My family comes first. The people I owe money to need to be paid. I've been places that I didn't want to be and did jobs that I'd rather not have done through the years. I'd do all it again if need be.

[GT27]

I would beg on my knee's, for money than live there! GT27

[starmac]

This thread really took off. I would not want to have to move to Ca. But I would do it if I were offered a good job there. If I was holding an empty bag here where I live now with nothing in sight. If I had looked for something more than a few weeks and came up dry, I'd be gone.
My family comes first. The people I owe money to need to be paid. I've been places that I didn't want to be and did jobs that I'd rather not have done through the years. I'd do all it again if need be.

I think anybody would, but I'm thinking the world will be upside down and falling fast before I can't find a job anywhere besides Cali. I'm not even sure I could get a work visa to even enter it anymore. lol

[gew98]

I'll mop floors in the south before I go that far west to live in this country's second anus !.

[jmort]

Well there is a diversity of opinion on this one.

[Love Life]

I'd rather get shot in the privates with a red rider than live out my final days in the south east.

What is freedom if there is no freedom? I like to wander, so the west is where my heart has always been.

I feel I have to buy acreage in the east to keep the busybodies and neighbors out of my life. Out west I just head into the deserts or mountains. If given the CHOICE than Nevada is where my hat will hang. If I didn't want to flip burgers or do other menial work, my hat will temporarily hang where the $$$ is.

However, BHN22 asked a very good question: So what if you have to give up things that are important to you, and compromise your principles?

A question that can only be answered by the person asking the question.

My numero uno principle, the most important thing to me, is my family and supporting my family. If it were me, I would have already been flipping burgers for the last 3 months bringing in some pay. Anything and everything is second to taking care of my family. I would go wherever I needed to to ensure my numero uno purpose and drive in life is satisfied.

Sometimes the road branches down a path you don't want to travel, but when you have to travel it all you can do is hike up your ruck and start traveling.

I have enjoyed this thread very much though. There is much perspective and diversity on the forum and threads like this bring it out well.

[jmort]

"...the west is where my heart has always been."

Yes indeed. I have traveled back and forth across the country and I never feel I'm at home until I get over/past the Rockies.

[Love Life]

It was all those books I read about the west while growing up. Then I got to the west as a youngster, and all the descriptions in the books were REAL ad TRUE!!!! One of the few times in life when something you have dreamed of is everything you thought it would be and more.

Kind of like my first ride in a helo and an Osprey.

[bhn22]

If you had a cra@p eating dog you could eliminate 50% of southern CA!

I gotta do it... if you're easily offended... please bail out now.



IN RESPONSE TO ALL THE RECENT E-MAILS ABOUT MY DOG:

PLEASE BE ADVISED, I AM SICK AND TIRED OF ANSWERING

QUESTIONS ABOUT MY DOG!

YES, HE MAULED SIX PEOPLE WEARING OBAMA T-SHIRTS,

FOUR PEOPLE WEARING PELOSI T-SHIRTS,

TWO OTHER DEMOCRATS,

NINE TEENAGERS WITH PANTS HANGING PAST THEIR CRACKS,

THREE FLAG BURNERS,

AND A PAKISTANI TAXI DRIVER.

FOR THE LAST TIME... THE DOG IS NOT FOR SALE !!!


NO, I DO NOT APPROVE OF HIS SMOKING,

BUT HE SAYS IT HELPS GET THE "BAD TASTE" OUT OF HIS MOUTH!!

[bhn22]

It is a pretty polar issue...

[btroj]

I'll buy that dog a pack of smokes if he bites Obama.......

Heck, I'll go a carton.

[Duckiller]

Waksupi as a moderator do you approve of the comments in this thread? I think I got my hand slapped for saying a lot less than what has been said here. Yes 9.5% sales tax is a bit much, 10% income tax is high but I pay 1% property tax based on 1976 prices. People in the entertainment industry don't live in the real world. There are all sorts of safe places to live in Los Angeles County and safe places to send your children to school.

[quilbilly]

Wife and I were born and raised in S. California then left in the late 60s (me) or early 70's (her). We firmly believe the best view of California is in your rear view mirror. Now that the rest of her family is up here, we never have to go back or even drive through. Woooo! Hoooo! I must admit the area in the northeast corner is very nice and they even want to secede what will ultimately become another third world hellhole like Argentina has become.

[starmac]

I may have missed it, but I have only seen one post where there was a name called. I do believe that there are very different views on what is a decent area to raise a family.
I lived in anaheim for a very short time in the 70's, but worked all over residential areas in La, orange and san bernadino counties. This was before my kids were born, but I didn't find an area I would have raised my kids. However my wife was raised up close to the bay area, and she has held up fairly well for 36 years. lol

[Bzcraig]

If you had a cra@p eating dog you could eliminate 50% of southern CA!

I want one from the first litter!

[Lloyd Smale]

are you married? Do you have kids to support? If so id swallow my pride and move out there for work. You can allways consider it a temporary thing and keep looking for a job in a place youd prefer.

[jaystuw]

Jezz duckkiller, I guess painting a better picture of cali for these guys is pretty much out the window. You got them all stirred up! in hindsight "coward" may not of been the best choice of words. For the rest of you, I'm sure that duckkiller did not mean that as it sounds and is only voicing his frustration at the constant battering of cali on this site.


No mid westerner would tolerate his state being poked fun at for even a second by a Californian, And yet the same mid westerners gladly and gleefully beat down California at every opportunity. With that said, I can detect only one coward on this thread, that would be me. Allowing my fellow southern Californian to be ravaged for defending were he (and I) live, while I do nothing, is unexcusable.


duckkiller, I am sorry for not standing with you when you needed it, but I will take my fair share of the heat now.


I will start were it is really easy, that would be with the cra@p dog eating southern california comment. Do any of you rural guys from mid country really want cali to get eaten up or disappear? Don't bother you right.? no problem, no leftys! yea! Well hold on, You and your way of life exists because southern cal exists. With no cali ,your farms, your towns and your citys wither on the vine. You exist because duckkiller and I and leftys and gays and Hispanics and blacks and everyone else you might not like go to work in the great economic center of southern cal and kick A$$ . Without us, you live on cattle and corn. The tough cowboys depend on the city slickers! You don't like any of that do you .You are offended by it. Well, welcome to the club guys, that's the way you treat californians every single day on cast boolits .com.

Jay

[dragon813gt]

No mid westerner would tolerate his state being poked fun at for even a second by a Californian, And yet the same mid westerners gladly and gleefully beat down California at every opportunity.

I will stand with you on this one. But insert North East for California. The term Yankee is thrown around by quite a few as a derogatory term. I'm thinking they have never been to California or the North East states. Because if they did they would realize that it's the urban areas that paint the states blue. And that the vast majority of the states, land wise, are firmly conservative. And make no mistake. All it takes is a few cities in your states to turn the entire state blue. Two cities(and a few surrounding counties) pretty much control the entire state I live in. It can happen to your state.

[btroj]

I sort of see it the other way. CA, and the east coast cities, look at use small town folks as a bunch of backwater hicks without enough senses to know what is right.

What do we believe in? Hard work, family, freedom, the Constitution, and God.

What don't we like? People from outside coming and telling us how to live or what to do. We tend to resent that. We managed to settle this land and make it our own without your help, I think we got it from here.

Does CA provide lots that benefits the rest of the nation? Absolutely. Problem is that with every helping of produce they want to shove a helping or two of liberal BS down my throat too.

Jay, if you look here many of the states in the "true" middle of the country do make fun of themselves. Look at the redneck jokes, the Texas jokes, and what not. We don't have thin skin about it because we KNOW what we are about and we have the moral toughness to take a joke. The Michigan guys take some heat, what little they get, from us about their cold and they don't get angry. Why? Because they can handle it like the men they are.

[762 shooter]

77 degrees all the time ain't what it's cracked up to be.

762

[btroj]

Jay, I have a feeling that many here will strongly disagree that we exist because of southern CA. I bet most here believe we exist because a higher power put us here.

There is the issue, you guys think you are above God. The rest of us know better.

[jaystuw]

Take a joke? the last time I messed with texas as a joke, it degenerated into a brawl and I got a very unpleasant PM from a mod and suspended for a month. In practice, it Is ok to joke about blue states but not red ones.
Jay

[btroj]

Of you got suspended for a month it is because you crossed a line, not because you made fun of Texas. The mods here are great and suspensions are generally well deserved.

Maybe it is the delivery. Saying we exist because of you tends to get ones hackle up. Texans don't like it when they get their hackle up, people tend to get hurt.

[btroj]

I also love the gay and race baiting. Nobody else has gays or blacks or Hispanics? Huh, I will need to tell south Omaha about that, the packing plants might be interested to know.

It isn't the state. It isn't the people. It is the arrogance. Same thing as NYC and DC.

[jaystuw]

btroj, Ok, you think, that I think, that I am above god? Did I get that right? You have to admit, that is a little bit of a stretch!

Jay

[jaystuw]

Texans don't like it when they get their hackle up, people tend to get hurt. But we can all take a joke. Jay

[cbrick]

It isn't the state. It isn't the people. It is the arrogance. Same thing as NYC and DC.

Arrogance? Naw, that's easy enough to ignore.

It's the socialism. Threads like this one are always quite humorous listening to those trying in vain to defend socialism.

Must not be just me either, for several decades the U-Haul company charged a premium to take a truck or a trailer TO CA because that's where they all ended up and the company would have to pay to get them back to other parts of the country. For the past 7-8 years U-Haul now charges a premium to take vehicles out of CA. Why? Because so many people are leaving! And not just people, business's are leaving CA just as fast or faster. Why? Socialism.

See? That's not so complicated is it?

Rick

[cbrick]

Hey Jay, do you know how to find Texas? It's pretty easy, just go east until you smell it and then go south until you fall in it. :mrgreen:

Rick

[jaystuw]

Ok, easy cbrick, Take it from an expert, You really don't want to mess with texas!
jay

[waksupi]

I am amazed at the idea the rest of the country can't survive without California. Where do people get that idea? Is it because that's where all the China **** is imported through? Lots of stuff I saw in California the locals thought were absolute essentials, most people have never even considered, and if they knew they even existed, certainly don't need to survive comfortably.

[cbrick]

Ok, easy cbrick, Take it from an expert, You really don't want to mess with Texas jay

Not to worry, most people (except socialists) have a sense of humour and can recognize a joke when they hear it.

Rick

[freebullet]

" If you can't bring your AR into California trade it of for a different model, only a very few are specificly banned. So you can't hunt with lead bullets, Barnes, Nosler and Hornady make approved projectiles. Shoot any not steel projectile at targets. Maybe if some of the cowards would move to California we could elect a few politician that have some sense and change some laws." From duckiller

Lol, no thank you. I believe you have a better chance at getting all the reasonably sane freedom loving folks to leave comifornia. Then the leech state can implode financially upon its own hypocrisy. Then you could go back and buy up cheap real estate, and enjoy. There are other lost states where freedom loving people won't go, so you aren't alone. Try not to be too offended while I enjoy my unregistered evil guns, boolits, & freedoms.

[cbrick]

When Duckiller posted about can't bring the AR into CA I was in the middle of something else and never got back to it. If he thinks the AR is the only banned gun in CA he is in for a very rude shock. He needs to go to the CA AG web site and view the lengthy lists of CA banned guns. Then at the same web site he needs to read up on the hoops and astronomical costs firearm mfg.'s have to jump through to be able to sell any of their firearms there. Just one small example, try to buy a Taurus Judge in CA, the list of other banned firearms is lengthy and now the socialists dictate what bullet. Just an example of how far the state has sunk and it's not about to stop now, it will continue to sink into socialism until there is nothing left but as one poster in this thread said, "minor inconvenience". That's exactly why I left after 45+ years there.

Rick

[DoubleAdobe]

Hey Jay, do you know how to find Texas? It's pretty easy, just go east until you smell it and then go south until you fall in it. :mrgreen:

Rick
One of my most violent encounters happened in a greasy spoon truck stop in the early 70's in western New Mexico. Starmac will appreciate this I think, because no one else did. I was very young and full of whiskey and with a pretty girl and it was so late it was early, if you know what I mean. There was an extremely loud and profane truck jockey and a couple of his associates in the next booth. The idiot was preaching some kind of Texas sermon, and probably due to my alcohol induced attention span and patience level it was wearing thin.
I actually remember thinking to myself that it was quite dangerous what I was fixing to say, but, alas, I said it anyway, because I was about 20 and the Wild Turkey was working.
I caught his eye across the top of darlin's eye over the top of the booth and asked him in what I thought was a not too loud voice, I didn't want to appear obnoxious after all. "Hey, bud, do you know how they separate the men from the boys in Texas?" Man, I should have done anything at all, except what I did, after the way he lasered me with his beady little eyes, haha. But he tricked me by saying very reasonably,"No, how's that, hoss". So, in my alcoholic haze, I thought he was really interested in my little joke. Sometimes it's not easy being young and naive.He welcomed me, no, he begged me to tell him the rest. So, like a lamb to slaughter, I did. I even stood up to do it, I guess I wanted him to be able to see and hear over my sweetie that was between us in that booth. Loud and proud I snapped off the punchline, anticipating the humor that they would all see no doubt, so, smiling while I said it."With a CROWBAR"! Dang, I was proud of it, I had no doubt we would all laugh, shake our heads and resume our meal and leave. It didn't happen anything like that. That fat, greasy old dude hit me, across the booth, and it devolved in to a fairly localized plate-breaking, food flying ugly blur for a short time. The driver and his boys got out, the waitress told my girl and I we probably needed to get scarce also in case the law was coming, but since they were coming from more than 20 miles away, it was not hard to get gone.
The moral of the story is, people are proud of where they are from and/or raised, will take offense at any kind of insult real or imagined, but that Texas thing is especially volatile, lol.

[dtknowles]

I am amazed at the idea the rest of the country can't survive without California. Where do people get that idea? Is it because that's where all the China **** is imported through? Lots of stuff I saw in California the locals thought were absolute essentials, most people have never even considered, and if they knew they even existed, certainly don't need to survive comfortably.

If California was a country of its own it would have the sixth largest economy in the world. It would be part of the G7. A large percentage of the produce consumed in the USA is grown in California. There are resources in the Aerospace sector that are almost exclusively in California. Tech companies and innovations in and from California have benefited the economies of almost every state. Yes, California is a mess both socially and the state and some local governments, if it ceased to exist the pain would be serious all across the country.

Tim

[Recluse]

Hey Jay, do you know how to find Texas? It's pretty easy, just go east until you smell it and then go south until you fall in it. :mrgreen:

Rick

Ah, yes. . . the smell of cattle, oil, agriculture and commerce. . . money, nothing like it. :grin:


I am amazed at the idea the rest of the country can't survive without California.

In actuality, we survive in spite of California and all the great social infestations, diseases and perverse abominations that they create and then import westward.

It's a damned shame, too. Geographically, no place on all of Planet Earth is as beautiful and rich in scenery as California. North Carolina is close, but like California, the infestation of communist transplants has doomed them.

I remember hearing about this smart bomb back when I was in the military and Jimmy Carter was the commander-in-shame. It was called the neutron bomb or the neutron-64 smart bomb or something. The theory was that it would wipe out most of the human population but leave buildings and infrastructure intact and supposedly had only minor impact on native wildlife.

My VERY FIRST THOUGHT was that San Francisco and Los Angeles would be the ideal testing grounds for this thing. I'd spent some time down on the beaches of southern California running around carrying big sticks of wood over my head and racing around in stinky, leaky rubber boats with other guys from the Marines and Army thinking the Navy boys were crazy as hell. Such were the interservice training rotations back in the day. . . but afterward when we had some liberty, we rented some clunker cars, filled up the trunks with disposable foam coolers, ice and lots of beer and went navigating up and down PCH 1.

It was stunningly beautiful. And I do mean awe-inspiring. I love my Texas sunsets, especially out on the ranch in west Texas, but a California sunset over the Pacific Ocean while you're carrying around rejected telephone poles can even make you (very temporarily) forget about the agony you're in. Yosemite? Incredible. The Redwoods? Proof there is a God.

I feel pretty much the same way about the northeast. This was the BIRTHPLACE of liberty and freedom and self-determination, after all. Philadelphia and Boston, the two stalwarts of this nation's birth--and now, two of the biggest socialist "rely on the government for everything" centers of population in all of what used to be the greatest nation on Earth.

Look at the politicians that California and the northeast give us endlessly and who they keep putting back into office term after term after term:

Chuckie Schumer
John Kerry
Diane Feinstein
Barbara Boxer
Nancy Pelosi
Ted Kennedy (thankfully worm dirt now)
Barney Frank
Christopher Dodd
Charlie Rangel
Hillary Clinton (was never even a "real" NY resident, but they couldn't wait to elect her as a Senator!)
Bernie Sanders
Arlen Spector (also thankfully worm dirt)

And then look at the governors that are elected in these states:

Andrew Cuomo
Mario Cuomo
Jerry Brown
Chris Christie
Jerry "Gray" Davis

Yeah, every state has elected its embarrassment of a governor (or two). We elected Ann "Ma" Richards with the help of the transplants, but we corrected THAT mistake 20 years ago and have never looked back and it's never even been close since in terms of elected a liberal moonbat versus a down-home conservative. In fact, we keep moving our respective governor's mansions more to the right and each time we do, the margin of victory gets higher.

That goes for Louisiana and Oklahoma as well, and Kansas is there and Missouri is beginning to see the light and would do even better if they could kick St. Louis out and give it to Illinois, but I don't think Illinois wants them either.

So the yankees and left-coasters get put out with the way people think and talk about them? Well tough feces. As Btroj pointed out, we folks in fly-over country and the south and Texas have been blamed for everything bad, the brunt of jokes, the subject of ridicule, etc etc for the better part of the past century, yet we continue to prosper and grow financially and socially while everyone can see the decay that is Detroit and Flint in Michigan, the absolute lawlessness that exists and grows in Chicago, the draconian long arm of the government in New York and NYC where you can't even buy a Big Gulp because of the decree of an ******* that was repeatedly voted into office and back into office.

And yet you wonder why the rest of America mocks and laughs at you and tells you to stay the hell away?

Old saying around the parts I grew up in--"Clean up your own damned pasture before you let your cattle in here to **** in mine."

Good advice.

:coffee:

[Recluse]

If California was a country of its own it would have the sixth largest economy in the world. It would be part of the G7. A large percentage of the produce consumed in the USA is grown in California. There are resources in the Aerospace sector that are almost exclusively in California. Tech companies and innovations in and from California have benefited the economies of almost every state. Yes, California is a mess both socially and the state and some local governments, if it ceased to exist the pain would be serious all across the country.

Tim

Tim, that is no longer true and hasn't been for better than ten years. More produce is grown and exported to the rest of the nation from Arizona and Texas than in California due to California's ever increasing environmental chokeholds on property owners--plus the issue over having to pay for and feed and medicate the illegals who are permanent CA residents. And in reality, even then more of the produce we consume is imported from Mexico, Central and South America than what is grown and harvested in California.

The aerospace industry is vacating California at record paces. It's moving operations everywhere to places and locales like South Carolina, Kansas, Texas, Nebraska, Arizona and especially Nevada.

The only thing still favorable, industry-wise, in California is Silicon Valley. Even the film industry is in shambles with more and more movies being filmed in Canada and other locales where SAG/AFTRA has no power.

California is bankrupt and upside down. If they were to cease being a part of the U.S., the smart workers in the high-tech industry would easily find work elsewhere. The rest of the state would look like Haiti within a few years (or Detroit, not much difference except the climate is better in Haiti). Yet, even knowing this, the politicians and people of California continue to fervently elect even more tax & spend politicians and continue to spend money they do not have then demand that the rest of America bail them out so they can continue dictating to us how the rest of us should live.

At one time, and for many years, California was an absolute economic juggernaut. Today it is simply a black hole.

:coffee:

[cbrick]

Hey Jay, do you know how to find Texas? It's pretty easy, just go east until you smell it and then go south until you fall in it. :mrgreen: Rick


Ah, yes. . . the smell of cattle, oil, agriculture and commerce. . . money, nothing like it. :grin:

See, Texans can have a sense of humor and recognize a joke when they hear one.

The rest of the post was as usual very well stated and accurate.

Pity CA has turned into such a socialist cesspool, it really was a great place to live and like most of America has it's own absolutely stunning geography. Sadly it's been many years since it was a great place to live and it continues to this day to sink further and further into the cesspool. Really sad.

Rick

[Springfield]

Wow. I live here, in San Jose, part of the San Francisco Bay area. Been here since I was 11, moved from Sacramento, California, but was born in Massachusetts. My Dad moved us all here so he could get a better job and get away from the snow. I hate snow, you guys can keep it. I also hate humidity, every time I visit relatives in Mass, Connecticut and Maine I think I am gonna die. Same for Florida, where my wife lived and had relatives until they moved here. Seems like all the guys who moved out of California lived in the southern part. You can keep that too. We visit there every couple of years, either to go to Disneyland or visit some of my wife's relatives. Too dang flat, I like to see hills from my house. Yes, it is expensive to live here, but I don't have expensive tastes. My electric bill varies from 75.00 in the summer to 250.00 in the winter, my wife likes the house warm. We live in a 3 bedroom house built in 1969, 1800 sq ft. This house is appraised at 700,000. Good thing I rent from my BIL or I couldn't afford it at 1600/month. My kids go to a top rated school, top 10% in the country. We went shooting last weekend at the County range, first time they shot a 200 yard range. The weekend before we shot our regular Cowboy Action shoot, it is 20 minutes from our house. We have very little crime in our area, I don't even know anyone who has had their house burgled, at least not in the last 15 years, and we have a few cops who live in the neighborhood who I talk to. I have a BMW with a sidecar on it, I drive the kids to school, Karate and music lessons, and to the store 10 months of the year. I could do it more but the kids whine about the cold when it gets below 50 deg. I have 3 cars, a full size truck, a little Ford ranger and a minivan, insure them all for 1300 a year, is that too much? We went to the beach at Santa Cruz 4 times last summer, 45 minutes away. We will probably go to the snow this winter for the kids, about a 2 hour drive. We go backpacking up north in the Trinity Alps, nice pine forests with lots of lakes and streams, about 4 hours away. Saturday I was talking to another member here, we were trading my solder for his .22's for my kids. He was returning from a High Power rifle match at a range 45 minutes north. I might have to try that and get some use out of my Ar's. Yes, the newer ones have to have a bullet button and are restricted to 10 round mags, but you only need 8 to compete in the matches anyway. I suppose I could move to Texas, but from what I read you southern Texas guys have a lot of immigrant problems and mexican gang problems. East Texas seemed nice but I have been told too many people coming over from Louisiana. And drought. And seems to me you guys have twisters there in the middle of the US, rather deal with earthquakes. EVERY place has it's own problems. I may move out of here eventually, I think economics will force the issue, as neither my wife and I make a 6 figure income, not even combined. But for now, with the kids and all, I can think of a lot worse places to be. You don't like it here, good, stay away, too dang many people here now driving up the price of housing. Maybe I just don't know no better, but I think the same can be said for a few of you who have never lived here.

[smokeywolf]

Jay, not meaning to stir the pot any further and not meaning to belittle your contribution to this topic. But, unless you were born in the mid 1950s or earlier, you'll never understand why folks from California or anywhere else are so terribly frustrated with conditions in this State now.

Most of the older folks such as myself, remember a time when California truly was inarguably, one of the best places in the Country to live.

It was not yet politically correct to put the rights of criminals above those of their victims.
It was not yet fashionable to be cheerleaders for homosexuals.
The California taxpayers were not yet being forced at a cost of 10+% of the state budget, to provide a safe, healthy and comfortable lifestyle for millions of criminal aliens and all the babies that they keep popping out.
Gun owners were seen as being normal, honest, patriotic citizens; not anarchists, subversives or future criminals.
Hollywood actors didn't go full auto on screen, then turn around and criticize gun owners and the Constitution off screen.
Although not exclusive to California, most folks liked Ike and JFK. Pertinent to California's safety, culture and budget, Ike had General Swing taking care of the criminal alien problem and he was very successful and efficient. Here's how General "Jumpin' Joe" Swing, with Ike's backing got it done.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0706/p09s01-coop.html
When I was 6 years old, my sister, who was a bit older, and I walked 3 1/2 blocks to school to school each day. If she was sick I still walked, by my self. We lived in the middle of San Fernando Valley. It was safe.
Now, I won't even let my 14 year old walk the same distance or less. And, where we are now is considered a very safe community.
Run-away taxation
Politicians constantly scheming new ways to extort more of your money and strip you of more of your rights and liberties (no longer guaranteed by the Constitution)

Other States have degraded too, but California is so far from what it once was, and from what most of the "red States" are today, it almost brings a tear to my eye.

The idea of voting the riffraff out of office hasn't been a workable solution for many years, as it is the politicians and the largest of campaign contributors (bribers) who choose the candidates.

In a way, I envy your optimism. but, in 20 or 30 years you too will have been beaten down by a government that steals your children's college money and gives it to the children of illegal aliens, then turns around and tells you that you're an irresponsible idiot for complaining about having your 2nd amendment rights infringed.

I'm still hopeful that the war for America is not yet lost. But, as long as criminal aliens are allowed to flow across our border into what has now become a sanctuary State, the liberal progressives will continue to raise your taxes and deprive you of your Constitutional and birth rights.

As I said in another post, the best way to fight now is to vacate Mexifornia and take your tax money with you.

smokeywolf

[cbrick]

EVERY place has it's own problems.

No doubt that's a very true statement but let me ask you these questions . . . Does one of those problems need to be socialism? Does one of those problems need to be compromising your principals? Does one of those problems need to be that your taxed so heavily that if you tried to live in CA on your pension you would need to do so by living on the street?

Every year, year in and year out in Los Angeles County there are more babies born to illegal aliens than to U.S. citizens and since none of them have two dimes to rub together they are born there on your dime. Then of course YOU have the responsibility to feed them, cloth them, educate them and provide all medical needed up until the time they have their own babies, then of course it starts all over. Does it bother you that there are now 4th generation illegals where none in the family yet speak English? Or have any intention to? Why should they, the schools are now in Spanish and all of the welfare offices have Spanish speakers.

More problems all related to socialism than this thread could hold but hey . . . The weather is great.

Rick

[jmort]

A $700k 1800 square foot house. You are welcome to stay. You are subsidized by your BIL, good for you, I am in the real world and no one is subsidizing me. I am not insulated from the reality that California blows big time. If you have a daughter like me, then the idea of a she man having the right to use the same restroom as a young girl should make it clear that this is no place for a family.

[jaystuw]

smokeywolf, I'm almost 58, spent my early childhood in the the san Fernando valley and relocated to ventura county in the mid-60s. other than my army time, I have always been in ventura county. You may know the area. It would seem that we have walked the same path but see the surrounding scenery somewhat differently . jay

[dtknowles]

Tim, that is no longer true and hasn't been for better than ten years. More produce is grown and exported to the rest of the nation from Arizona and Texas than in California
:coffee:

Did you mean Texas and Arizona combined or was "exported" key to your statement as California still thinks it is the top producer? This from the California Dept of Food and Agriculture for 2012. "California remained the number one state in cash farm receipts with 11.3 percent of the US total. The state accounted for 15 percent of national receipts for crops and 7.1 percent of the US revenue for livestock and livestock products."

Tim

[btroj]

I suppose it comes down to looking from within or from outside the state. Those of us on the outside see more harm than benefit to moving there.

I will not exchange freedoms for landscape or weather.

[btroj]

Hey Jay, do you know how to find Texas? It's pretty easy, just go east until you smell it and then go south until you fall in it. :mrgreen:

Rick

Good thing you didn't take a wrong turn heading to the new home

[smokeywolf]

smokeywolf, I'm almost 58, spent my early childhood in the the san Fernando valley and relocated to ventura county in the mid-60s. other than my army time, I have always been in ventura county. You may know the area. It would seem that we have walked the same path but see the surrounding scenery somewhat differently . jay

I stand corrected on my presumption of your age. Your optimism gave me a mental image of youth, naivete or perhaps some of both.

It seems that you have just been able to avoid or resist the pessimism, cynicism and frustration that our sick, dysfunctional, predacious State government had fostered in me.

California has highest gasoline tax in the U. S. at, 71.9 cents per gallon. At the same time we have some of the worst roads in the Country. http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/07/01/california-gas-tax-hike-goes-into-effect/

smokeywolf

[WinMike]

What you all are talking about is the difference in cultures. I live on the west side of the Cascades in Washington state; politics, industry, values, etc. are different than east of the Cascades. There's not one California: there are at three distinct cultures: No Cal (very similar to the west coasts of Ore, WA, BC), Hispanic LA/So Cal, and thirdly, east of the mountains, which, in general, is similar to the rest of the Far West.

Next time you go to the grocery, you folks in fly-over country might want to look at where most of your winter produce comes from. With few exceptions, it's California. That's just one of many reasons why CA is still important to all of us....as much as one may not want to admit it.

I'm a Nebraska native, lived in Idaho, Illinois and Texas, but have lived in the PacNW for 50 years. I can't imagine living in flat lands ever again....I want to see mountains. If I want winter snow, I drive 30 miles up....but in the meantime, I have an unused snow shovel that's 12 years old and counting. The last census showed the zip codes in my area to have more than 25 different races, languages and religions. That's OK with me....I can't imagine living in a mono-cultural area that so many people apparently do.

But I'm not trying to recruit flatlanders to my part of the country. They'd be uncomfortable. For the most part, here we disapprove of homophobia and the racist comments as stated or hinted by many of the comments in this thread.

Just as I'd be uncomfortable if I moved back to the mid-west or Texas. Thank God we live in a country that allows most of us to live in an area where we enjoy living.

[cbrick]

WinMike, what you see as political correctness I see for what it is. You see, homophobia is nothing more than a term invented by the left or if you prefer liberals or progressives or socialists (all different words for the exact same thing) that they use in their name calling, it's supposed to be derogatory and your supposed to feel guilty when that horrid new word is used against you. Truth is it isn't derogatory, it simply identifies someone that sees a perversion as a perversion.

Racist comments? Again a good line from the socialists. You must be referring to the comments about the criminals that sneak across our borders in the middle of the night and suck up billions of hard working peoples tax dollars every year. I'll bet you call them immigrants huh? If you do you need to learn what an immigrant is and what an illegal alien is and then try to comprehend the difference.

Fly over country? That's a particularly good one from the socialists but again it offends no one, it simply identifies folks that see a socialist for what it is, a socialist, evil. Because we see them for what they are is the very reason they hate us and invent what they think are dirty words for us.

Rick

[btroj]

We prefer that people from California fly over Nebraska, we sure don't want them moving here!

I don't consider myself a racist or a homophobe but I also don't need someone else's lifestyle choice shoved down my throat.

I refuse to be blamed for other peoples failures or feel I somehow owe them anything, if that makes me racist then so be it.

This entire thread shows how differently people from the west coast tend to think. We exist because of them. We don't agree on issues so we are racist or homophobic. They can see that maybe THEY are the ones with a different viewpoint.

Hate to tell you CA but much of the nation doesn't give two hoots about you. Take your Boxer and shove it up your Pelosi.

[ShooterAZ]

Thank God we live in a country that allows most of us to live in an area where we enjoy living.

Yes, its all about choices. I bailed out of CA in the early 70's. Do I miss it? Parts of it. I used to go surf fishing around Dana Point with my father & brothers there. I do miss that. I miss the ocean. To those that chose to live there, no problem here. It became undesirable for me, so I left, and never looked back. AZ is the place for me.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

......

[bhn22]

At least you get to leave California.

[jonp]

Buddy of mine made 6 figures in Cali as an air traffic controller. He moved to Wisconsin and makes about half of what he was doing on the Left Coast and says he lives better.

[jmort]

"...motorcycles can split lanes."

I drive the area you were/are in often. One thing that really gets my attention is when a He!!'s Angel blows by at crazy insane speed lane splitting. Impressive. Only thing I can figure out is that they don't want to leave much of a target.

[jaystuw]

WinMike, what you see as political correctness I see for what it is. You see, homophobia is nothing more than a term invented by the left or if you prefer liberals or progressives or socialists (all different words for the exact same thing) that they use in their name calling, it's supposed to be derogatory and your supposed to feel guilty when that horrid new word is used against you. Truth is it isn't derogatory, it simply identifies someone that sees a perversion as a perversion.

Racist comments? Again a good line from the socialists. You must be referring to the comments about the criminals that sneak across our borders in the middle of the night and suck up billions of hard working peoples tax dollars every year. I'll bet you call them immigrants huh? If you do you need to learn what an immigrant is and what an illegal alien is and then try to comprehend the difference.

Fly over country? That's a particularly good one from the socialists but again it offends no one, it simply identifies folks that see a socialist for what it is, a socialist, evil. Because we see them for what they are is the very reason they hate us and invent what they think are dirty words for us.

Rick

Rick, You are a little ahead of the game. You won't see a true socialist movement in America until 70 percent of personal wealth is in the hands of less than 1 percent of the population, still a decade or more away. If you want to see evil, perhaps you should look in another direction. Jay

[cbrick]

Keep telling yourself that Jay, say it over and over. You'll feel better.

Rick

[jaystuw]

I stand corrected on my presumption of your age. Your optimism gave me a mental image of youth, naivete or perhaps some of both.

It seems that you have just been able to avoid or resist the pessimism, cynicism and frustration that our sick, dysfunctional, predacious State government had fostered in me.

California has highest gasoline tax in the U. S. at, 71.9 cents per gallon. At the same time we have some of the worst roads in the Country. http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/07/01/california-gas-tax-hike-goes-into-effect/

smokeywolf

Smokeywolf

I have followed your postings, And yes, You are completely correct. I share none of your pessimism, cynicism or frustration. How do I do it ? its easy. I look at the larger picture. Everyday I think about how other people live. The vast majority live in a hut with a dirt floor. They spent the day trying to fill their most prized possession - a metal cooking pot, with food to keep from starving. They live Hard, short, violent lives. That, is the reality for the average guy on planet earth.

You and I, on the other hand, had some luck. We had the great good fortune to be born in southern calif. The place that everyone in the world dreams of and struggles to get to. It has payed off. I'm a blue collar utility worker that is affluent beyond anything I expected. You are likely in the same or better position. I wake up every morning feeling like I just won the lottery!
Jay

[btroj]

I don't think true socialism ever exists. The ruling class will always have wealth and power. Socialism is more a way for the powerful to keep the others poor than a way to share wealth.

Jay, evil exists at all income levels. Want what the wealthy have? Do what they did to get there.

[bhn22]

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”

― Margaret Thatcher

[cbrick]

Want what the wealthy have? Do what they did to get there.

Now Brad, your not being politically correct. You don't really think people should work for what they have do you? That's just not how it works in the great society, you can't expect that of people. In the great socialist society anyone that has more than you turns you green with envy and after all, they must have stolen it, the whole idea is to drag those people down. It's called trickle up poverty and misery, then everyone is equal and all the progressives feel warm & fuzzy.

Do what they did to get there indeed. You obviously need to get your mind "right". You didn't drink your cool-ade today did you?

Rick

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfnMCl453k4

[btroj]

Rick, I never drink the Kool-aide, I figure it might just make me want to move to CA and give my money to the govt.

There are some who take advantage of govt assistance to get back on their feet and get going. My issue is with the large masses who view it as a lifestyle and have no motivation to ever get away from govt dependency. I am willing to help those who are try ing to help themselves. I refuse to be more concerned with your well being than you are. I don't feel bad for people who chose a certain lifestyle.

[Love Life]

I leave for a couple days and it has become interesting. I like Jaystuw's way of thinking.

Where ever you go, survive and thrive. So, are you (op) flipping burgers yet? I would be.

2 ways to win California back. All the taxpayers leave and let the state choke on it's good ideas, or more and more solid taxpayers move in and try to influence the politics.

Either way, California is worth fighting for.

It is a truly sad state of affairs. A man I respect immensely has lived in California his entire life (minus a stint in Vietnam) and is now 74. The way he talks of the state will have you foaming at the mouth to live in California. However, there is a sadness in his stories as well. He knows a different California than a lot of us do. One of saddest things I've seen was when he bitterly said "The state motto is no longer 'Eureka!!' The state motto is now 'California, a nice place but I wouldn't want to live there.'"

Ahh, but now I am just rambling on. I'm going to go load some ammo, and drive 20 minutes into California and shoot to 1,000 yds. Ya'll have fun now.

[southpaw]

I leave for a couple days and it has become interesting. I like Jaystuw's way of thinking.

Where ever you go, survive and thrive. So, are you (op) flipping burgers yet? I would be.

2 ways to win California back. All the taxpayers leave and let the state choke on it's good ideas, or more and more solid taxpayers move in and try to influence the politics.

Either way, California is worth fighting for.

It is a truly sad state of affairs. A man I respect immensely has lived in California his entire life (minus a stint in Vietnam) and is now 74. The way he talks of the state will have you foaming at the mouth to live in California. However, there is a sadness in his stories as well. He knows a different California than a lot of us do. One of saddest things I've seen was when he bitterly said "The state motto is no longer 'Eureka!!' The state motto is now 'California, a nice place but I wouldn't want to live there.'"

Ahh, but now I am just rambling on. I'm going to go load some ammo, and drive 20 minutes into California and shoot to 1,000 yds. Ya'll have fun now.

I don't know about the op but I know that I like to keep the savings high enough that if something should happen I could make it atleast 6 months or so. That way it leaves you time to search for a job instead of flipping burgers. Live within your means and this is easy to accomplish.

I am afraid if enough conservative tax payers move in you won't be finding so many places to shoot. They are gonna have to put them new houses somewhere. You would have to increase the population 40% to counter all the lib votes. Maybe we should just go with option one and let them choke on them good ideas.

Jerry Jr.

[Love Life]

I have a very good savings plan. Have for years. Even with that, I would be flipping burgers like a boss. If given the following 2 choices:
A) Living on savings while searching for an appropriate job
B) Living on savings, while adding in money from flipping burgers, while looking for a better job

Then the answer is a no brainer. I would choose B. I'm not to good, experienced, or above any job that pays greenbacks. Period. Especially when I provide for my family. Disposable income is fantastic. However; I would drop all of my hobbies, sell all of my fun stuff, and work any job/jobs that would pay me IOT keep my wife and daughters standard of living nice. Period. My job is to be employed and be a provider.

I just don't get it, and I have seen it many, many, many times through the years where a person would choose to be unemployed rather than to work a menial job or uproot and move for job.

[dragon813gt]

I just don't get it, and I have seen it many, many, many times through the years where a person would choose to be unemployed rather than to work a menial job or uproot and move for job.

It's pretty easy to understand. It involves sacrifice to do as you suggest. One would have to sacrifice their ego to take a job that they feel is beneath them. To some this just can't be done because they aren't willing to make the sacrifice.

[ShooterAZ]

All the while some other guy took the job in Cali....and is now ROTFLMAO all the way to the bank.

[southpaw]

If you have time to flip burgers you aren't looking hard enough. Spend your time filling out job applications, going to interviews, looking into other fields, you get the idea. If that is unsuccessful maybe then take the best job you can find and start looking into other areas or states. It all comes down what is the most productive way to spend your time. Maybe nights at the burger shop isn't so bad.

How many days can you miss to go to a job interview or drop off applications before the burger boss tells you to take a hike?

I understand what you are saying. IF my wife gets a job it is going to be because she wants to not that she needs to. I can work 2 jobs if need be.

Jerry Jr.

[Love Life]

You don't work 24 hours a day flipping burgers. You have plenty of time to drop off resumes and stuff during your off hours. If an interview for a fine job comes along while you have to be at the burger joint, then you better waltz into that interview and own it so when you get fired from the burger joint you have your new job. Plus, working at the joint can be flexible. I've worked many jobs over time, and fast food was one of those. I actually did quite well and often wonder where I'd be in life if I kept pushing my way up the ladder....

A job in hand is a job in hand. Also you statement that if you have time to flip burgers than you aren't looking hard enough is a bit silly. You have time to flip burgers because you want to add to your bankroll. You also have time to find other jobs. Period. It's all about how much "free time" you think you need.

[AK Caster]

I would rather move out of the country than EVER move back to California where I lived for 6 years.
If your an old german and liked the NAZI's then CA would be for you.

[Love Life]

It took 8 pages and 160 posts for Godwin's Law to rear it's head.

[WinMike]

It took 8 pages and 160 posts for Godwin's Law to rear it's head.

Well....maybe.....many of the posts were definitely within the spirit of the rule without the actual mention of Hitler or Nazis.....:drinks:

[jmort]

"I actually did quite well and often wonder where I'd be in life if I kept pushing my way up the ladder...."

I wish I just plugged in somewhere, anywhere. If you show up on time and work with enthusiasm you will move-up the ladder. I've been self-employed for the last 20 odd years. If you want to lead a life of faith, self-employment is a good place to test your faith. Still hoping for a big score. Time will tell.

[Love Life]

I am actually studying to join your profession, unless I am wrong about what you do.

[jaystuw]

I believe that any citizen who works hard, and contributes to society, should be rewarded for his or her efforts with a fair salary and a shot at the american dream.

Want I do not buy into is the reality that some folks, a very tiny few, stretch the limits of what a fair salary (in my opinion) should be. Its hard to believe that a society that allows one man to earn in a few weeks what another man earns in 40 years of hard, constant, sometimes dangerous work, is healthy or fair . I don't like that a CEO that may or my not lead his company wisely or well, is paid hundreds or thousands of times what his workers earn.

And finally, I also do not believe the founding fathers created America so that the top 1 percent of her citizens can own 55 percent of the personal wealth , While the bottom 50 percent own virtually nothing. that, in my opinion, de-values the contribution of the common american worker.

Jay

[starmac]

Doesn't something like the bottom 40 percent not even work at all. The only persons pay check I fret over is mine.

[dragon813gt]

Jay,
Be very careful w/ that line of thinking. Sounds like you want a socialist society where everyone gets their fair share. While I don't like the income gap I don't want it to change to where everything is fair and balanced. That's not good for anyone. You have to take the bad w/ the good and the income gap is part of it. The gap is nothing new. Just looker at what the Robber Barons did.

The founding fathers were wealthy land owners. I'm pretty sure they set it up in their own best interests. If nothing was changed from then until now I'm not sure we would be in a different situation. But a lot has changed over time that steered us away from their vision.

[jaystuw]

Doesn't something like the bottom 40 percent not even work at all. The only persons pay check I fret over is mine.

Well put starmac, spoken like a good and true capitalist. Lets see how that works out for us over the next few decades. Jay

[btroj]

Those at the top often get their wealth from inheritance. Do the Walton children deserve nothing from the work of their father?

Income inequality is often linked to effort inequality.

I know a guy who is a VP of my company. He worked 40 hours a week while in college full time. Worked evening and every weekend. Became a store manager, worked 60 hour weeks. Moved up a couple more rings thru long hours, lots of travel, and a job where he wasn't really ever off duty. Do I feel I deserve the money he makes? Heck no, I have a life. He is married to his work, how he has time for a wife I don't know. I can assure you he doesn't have time to cast bullets.

Is m all for equal opportunity, just realize that will never equate to equal outcome. I will never dunk a basketball or hit a home run but I don't feel it is unfair that others can. They have a unique skill set that I lack. Life isn't fair, get over it.

As for the founding fathers, they were all about freedom. Freedom allows us to either succeed or fail. Freedom is about self determination.

[btroj]

Well put starmac, spoken like a good and true capitalist. Lets see how that works out for us over the next few decades. Jay

If we could get your hands out of my pockets it would work just fine.

[Love Life]

Well, I no longer like jaystuw's line of thinking.

[jaystuw]

The rich get richer at an alarming rate. the middle class is treading water and the working poor are sinking. Is that sustainable? Jay

[jmort]

Just because one group of people are rich does not mean they are impeding anyone's success. Wealth is not finite in a free society. The economic "pie" can/should grow if we let it. I resent no man's wealth or status.

[jaystuw]

Well, I no longer like jaystuw's line of thinking.

That's completely ok lovelife, We each follow our own path. jay

[btroj]

The working poor isn't the issue, it is the NONworking poor that is the problem.

[jaystuw]

[QUOTE=btroj;2550812]The working poor isn't the issue, it is the NONworking poor that is the problem.[/QUOTE

btroj. A huge amount of working poor are floundering. Its not an issue for you, but a giant distress for them. Jay

[cbrick]

Well put starmac, spoken like a good and true capitalist. Lets see how that works out for us over the next few decades. Jay

hehe, just what the socialist party of America said in 1918 when they officially changed the name of the party to . . . The Progressive Party of America. Did you know that obummer stood in front of a TV camera a few years ago and proudly stated that he was a . . . PROGRESSIVE. You probably either won't or don't want to believe that but it's true, heard it live myself.

I have no grudge against anyone for what they "EARN", as long as they don't stick a gun in somebodies face to get it more power to them. I'm a capitalist and d*mned proud of it. It is the most successful system ever devised to raise the status of everyone in the system. Socialism on the other hand has been an utter and complete failure every time/place it's been tried.

Since your green with envy that there are people that make more than you I highly recommend dumping the progressive mind set and try the American way of getting it for yourself . . . Go out and earn it. That is a much "fairer" method than dragging down those that do earn it for the sole purpose of making progressives feel warm & fuzzy.

Rick

[jaystuw]

Unfortunately, it Looks like I have brought this thread back from a simmer to a boil, and now my wife wants me to go swimming. I'm sorry to leave before all the hornets get out of the nest, but will be back! jay

[dtknowles]

I believe that any citizen who works hard, and contributes to society, should be rewarded for his or her efforts with a fair salary and a shot at the american dream...........

Jay

Depending on what you consider the American Dream, I disagree. A fair salary for a lot of jobs is not enough to provide for the American Dream. I don't care how hard you work, even working 60 hours a week flipping burgers does not earn you a home of your own, a car and support a family. Fair salary is dependent on the value of what you produce. If the value of what you produce is low then your compensation is low, it has nothing to do with how hard you work. If anyone can do your job then your compensation should be low and you don't get the American Dream. The American Dream is for those who can raise their output to a level that earns that reward. If your job is filling orders in a warehouse, beware you are about to be replaced with a machine and if you can't learn how to maintain and program that machine expect to be out of a job, no American Dream for you.

The rewards have to match the performance not the effort. If you produce $50,000 in value for your employer don't expect your total compensation to exceed $35,000 (benefits included) and probably expect less if your employer has high overhead or significant debt. Too many workers (managers included) over value their effort and do not understand how it flows to the bottom line.

Tim

[smokeywolf]

I believe that any citizen who works hard, and contributes to society, should be rewarded for his or her efforts with a fair salary and a shot at the american dream.

Want I do not buy into is the reality that some folks, a very tiny few, stretch the limits of what a fair salary (in my opinion) should be. Its hard to believe that a society that allows one man to earn in a few weeks what another man earns in 40 years of hard, constant, sometimes dangerous work, is healthy or fair . I don't like that a CEO that may or my not lead his company wisely or well, is paid hundreds or thousands of times what his workers earn.

And finally, I also do not believe the founding fathers created America so that the top 1 percent of her citizens can own 55 percent of the personal wealth , While the bottom 50 percent own virtually nothing. that, in my opinion, de-values the contribution of the common american worker.

Jay

Actually Jay, the top 1% in this Country hold nearly one third of all liquid assets and approx. 28 percent of all non-liquid (real estate, jewelry, airplanes, etc.) assets. So, the wealthiest actually have about 60% of everything.

Although it might make you a little more cynical and negative like me, here's something that addresses your post pretty well.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/moneywisewomen/2012/03/21/average-america-vs-the-one-percent/

This also touches on something that has always been painfully obvious to me. That this Country will never ever have a fair, unbiased and ethical government as long as that government is populated almost exclusively by the wealthy (ruling) class. Politicians represent their peers and middle class Americans are not their peers.

smokeywolf

[onceabull]

With the average Mcdonalds franchisee with 3 or more storefronts being worth way north of the first seven figure #, I'll venture that there is more than a tad of upside $ that could go in compensation for the burgerfippers... Onceabull

[btroj]

[QUOTE=btroj;2550812]The working poor isn't the issue, it is the NONworking poor that is the problem.[/QUOTE

btroj. A huge amount of working poor are floundering. Its not an issue for you, but a giant distress for them. Jay

But what of the non working poor? The leeches on society? The girl with lots of kids and no job, no desire for a job, never gonna get a job?

I have real problems when someone's right to have a kid becomes my responsibility to support the kid. Heck, I didn't knock her up, why am I punished?

[btroj]

With the average Mcdonalds franchisee with 3 or more storefronts being worth way north of the first seven figure #, I'll venture that there is more than a tad of upside $ that could go in compensation for the burgerfippers... Onceabull

And those burger flippers need to realize that if profit drops the franchise owner may close up shop. Minimum wage for unemployed people is how much?

Shop owners don't keep a business open to pay employees from their own pockets.

[freebullet]

If king zero were a member of this board he would back you up jay. Life isn't fair, if it were I wouldn't have struggled so hard for several years to keep my home while the section 8 home winners ruin my neighborhood. Those folks couldnt afford a modest home on my street, but your way of thinking allowed them to live here. Allowed them to sit around and smoke weed, have parties, shoot up the neighborhood, & send out their welfare sport produced thugs to burglarized the community, and bring down the property values of homes they can not afford.

I had to find my own way, & work my body beyond soreness to achieve the position of being my own boss. 14+ hours a day 6-7 days a week for years, all the while paying for waste & people unwilling to do the same. I've worked for 54 hours straight, because it was what was required to get the job done.

When I left my parents home I had nothing. I had to work hard to develop skills that people would pay for. I don't take kindly to people shoving their "fairness" to be my problem, or the line of thinking that my freedom endangers your safety.

[BLTsandwedge]

Regarding the original conversation.....

Wife and I just completed the emigration from the Central Left to Southeastern PA. Our experience included (and continues to include) the salient of what was premised throughout this thread.

We lived in California (San Francisco, Santa Rosa and Pebble Beach respectively) for about 18 years. We moved there for career growth. San Francisco and Pebble Beach can be (are) bitterly expensive; SF is only slightly less expensive than Tokyo. We both had good jobs with growing careers. In short- financially we did very well- and in no other part of the US could we have done so well. So, for us, CA was the means to an end- using our wealth-creation years to do just that- prepare for retirement. For us this is a good thing but for California it is a bad thing. Many (if not most) of our friends have already left CA or are preparing to leave. Because of this I see an ever-widening of the wealth gap in CA- to the point that it will become a crisis. Am I suggesting re-distribution of wealth? Hell no!!! But there's a fundamental necessity for a 'free market' society like ours to remain viable- a healthy middle class. I don't have an answer to the problem. If I did, I'd consider myself clever (far from reality).

My point is this: if you are bothered by California's expenses and political environment (as I am), then California should simply be a means to whatever end you have interest in. The decision to move to CA must then be necessarily colored by your end-game. However, if you can (financially) make it in San Francisco, Manhattan or Tokyo, you can make it anywhere in the world. We simply didn't want those bragging rights anymore- and moved. Our expenses have dropped dramatically.......and as I write this the wind is blowing to beat all hell against our (comparatively) big house with wind-chill in the low 20s. I haven't looked at my golf clubs since September.........

....most everyone that contributed to this thread (regardless of position) it is clear that where we choose to live amounts to a trade-off. So be it. Hopefully we'll all have the wisdom to make the choices that most benefit our priorities.

Happy New Year!

[starmac]

I don't have a clue what a Mcdonalds cost now, but I had some friends looking into building one close to 30 years ago, and just the franchise was 250,000 bucks. Just how much risk does an unskilled burger flipper have?

[BLTsandwedge]

With the average Mcdonalds franchisee with 3 or more storefronts being worth way north of the first seven figure #, I'll venture that there is more than a tad of upside $ that could go in compensation for the burgerfippers... Onceabull

Hiya Onceabull,

With respect, without knowing how that debt was structured, you or I cannot know that. We can't know that if we don't know the cash flow either. Liquidation value is something to be borrowed against, not counted on.

[cbrick]

Want I do not buy into is the reality that some folks, a very tiny few, stretch the limits of what a fair salary (in my opinion) should be.

Uhuh, and just who gets to decide what is fair and for whom?


I also do not believe the founding fathers created America so that the top 1 percent of her citizens can own 55 percent of the personal wealth Jay

Silly progressive, the Founders WERE the top 1%.


While the bottom 50 percent own virtually nothing. that, in my opinion, de-values the contribution of the common american worker. Jay

The American worker is paid based on what he produces. Your saying that if one person produces something worth a million dollars and the next guy flips a burger they should be compensated the same.

It is extremely clear why socialism is a total failure.

Rick

[jcwit]

Regarding the original conversation.....

Wife and I just completed the emigration from the Central Left to Southeastern PA. Our experience included (and continues to include) the salient of what was premised throughout this thread.

We lived in California (San Francisco, Santa Rosa and Pebble Beach respectively) for about 18 years. We moved there for career growth. San Francisco and Pebble Beach can be (are) bitterly expensive; SF is only slightly less expensive than Tokyo. We both had good jobs with growing careers. In short- financially we did very well- and in no other part of the US could we have done so well. So, for us, CA was the means to an end- using our wealth-creation years to do just that- prepare for retirement. For us this is a good thing but for California it is a bad thing. Many (if not most) of our friends have already left CA or are preparing to leave. Because of this I see an ever-widening of the wealth gap in CA- to the point that it will become a crisis. Am I suggesting re-distribution of wealth? Hell no!!! But there's a fundamental necessity for a 'free market' society like ours to remain viable- a healthy middle class. I don't have an answer to the problem. If I did, I'd consider myself clever (far from reality).

My point is this: if you are bothered by California's expenses and political environment (as I am), then California should simply be a means to whatever end you have interest in. The decision to move to CA must then be necessarily colored by your end-game. However, if you can (financially) make it in San Francisco, Manhattan or Tokyo, you can make it anywhere in the world. We simply didn't want those bragging rights anymore- and moved. Our expenses have dropped dramatically.......and as I write this the wind is blowing to beat all hell against our (comparatively) big house with wind-chill in the low 20s. I haven't looked at my golf clubs since September.........

....most everyone that contributed to this thread (regardless of position) it is clear that where we choose to live amounts to a trade-off. So be it. Hopefully we'll all have the wisdom to make the choices that most benefit our priorities.

Happy New Year!

Sound as if you're settled in and very happy with your lot in life and choices.

Best to you and yours in the coming New Year, and may good health prevail for years to come.

[Alvarez Kelly]

Wow. I don't know why I'm always surprised by the socialists train of thought.

I invested my life's savings, borrowed at least four times that, just to run my own business. I work everyday. Maybe not 8 hours everyday, but everyday none the less. I'm often doing paperwork late into the night. If my business fails, I'll have to file bankruptcy. My employees have nothing at risk. I pay them according to their skill set. Some make at lot more than others.

I'm often "accused" of being rich, because I own my business. What most don't seem to realize is the overhead costs involved. Property taxes alone eat 20% of my gross receipts! I also have mortgages, insurance, taxes, and utilities that eat away at potential profits.

We are comfortable. If I can keep going hard another 7 years or so, I may be able to slow down. If the plan comes together, we may be able to retire with a modicum of security.

Those that don't risk their own comforts and fortunes in an adventure that can consume every waking moment, should not expect the rewards of those that do and succeed.

[southpaw]

Judge Smails can contribute a little to this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiRGRvE_Wqg

Jerry Jr.

[dragon813gt]

Wife and I just completed the emigration from the Central Left to Southeastern PA.

I've lived in SE PA my entire life and can't say I would have made the move you did. The weather beats you up all year long. That 20 something wind chill will feel like a heat wave come Friday :(

It amazes me that people think that everyone should make a wage that provides a good living. Ted Knight summed it up well in Caddyshack when he said; Well, the world needs ditch diggers to. Ditch diggers(burger flippers) don't deserve to paid as well as management and company owners. If you don't understand this concept then you are truly lost.

[dtknowles]

With the average Mcdonalds franchisee with 3 or more storefronts being worth way north of the first seven figure #, I'll venture that there is more than a tad of upside $ that could go in compensation for the burgerfippers... Onceabull

Please clarity, "being worth" equals? Annual revenue, Profit, resale value? You indicated average, so maybe some could raise wages but if you make it law then all including the marginal (lower performing) storefronts would have to raise wages even if that would cause them to lose money and maybe close eliminating the jobs. Even if they could raise wages, why should they if they can find good workers at the current wages. A national minimum wage is nonsense, conditions around the country vary so much that the value set would only make sense for a tiny fraction of the population. Local minimum wage laws make more sense but are really social engineering and will kill jobs, raise prices and eliminate retail and service options for consumers. For some socialist this might be what they want, fewer but better paying jobs and fewer economical shopping options and only higher end shops and salons.

Tim

[captaint]

I was actually born in Kalifornia. They tell me the family moved east when I was 3 months old. Never went back. I grew up in Northern Virginia, had a great time. Wouldn't live there again, though. Too expensive and crowded - really crowded. I would not live in NJ either. That "state" is barely better than CA. I'll keep my Southeastern Pa., thank you. I enjoy the change of seasons, also. Happy New Year all. Mike

[smokeywolf]

I think using the term "burger flipper" in the same sentence with "living wage" is ridiculous to the point of comedic and can only be seen as hyperbole. Working as a "burger flipper", bus boy or quickie market clerk has always been seen as a means to an end. Those types of jobs have traditionally been performed by students who live with mom & dad and just need gas money or money to go to the mall or take your girl our for a burger and a movie.
Therefore, drawing any correlation between "burger flipping" and a job that has or should fall into the category of those that have traditionally paid a living wage is utter nonsense.

"Shop owners don't keep a business open to pay employees from their own pockets." btroj, if employee wages don't come from gross proceeds and therefore reduce the owner's profit, then, from where do they come?

People becoming wealthy exclusively from hard work and intelligent decisions is very rare. The vast majority of folks with incomes in the 7 figure range, could not have made it without having come from a well to do family and having connections to someone who could put them in the right place at the right time.

smokeywolf

[btroj]

I am speaking of an owner losing money while keeping a place open. A business owner is in business to make money. He isn't in business to employ others, he employs others to run his business and make him money.

I agree that many today with money got the majority from inheritance. I don't have an issue with that. When I die I want my heirs to get my money, not the govt.

[RoyEllis]

[smilie=b: It has become apparent to me that I now shall require a much larger dog than previously extrapolated to effectively accomplish the mission at hand.

[Blacksmith]

I believe that any citizen who works hard, and contributes to society, should be rewarded for his or her efforts with a fair salary and a shot at the american dream.

Want I do not buy into is the reality that some folks, a very tiny few, stretch the limits of what a fair salary (in my opinion) should be. Its hard to believe that a society that allows one man to earn in a few weeks what another man earns in 40 years of hard, constant, sometimes dangerous work, is healthy or fair . I don't like that a CEO that may or my not lead his company wisely or well, is paid hundreds or thousands of times what his workers earn.

And finally, I also do not believe the founding fathers created America so that the top 1 percent of her citizens can own 55 percent of the personal wealth , While the bottom 50 percent own virtually nothing. that, in my opinion, de-values the contribution of the common american worker.

Jay

Jay

Our system allows some people to earn in weeks as much as a man earns in a lifetime of "....hard, constant, sometimes dangerous work,...." and some earn it without working at all in the conventional sense. They earn it by risking their accumulated wealth or a portion of it to allow other people to have access to capitol so those people can start or expand a business. Those people are entitled to be compensated for their risk and those people are taking a hit and have been for years just look at dividend and interest rates.

Just as you don't like ".... a CEO that may or my not lead his company wisely or well,...." is paid multiples of his workers wages, I have a problem with a burger flipper who doesn't do his job as well as or work as hard as or shows up on time like his coworkers getting paid as much as the workers who do. The CEO who doesn't provide value commensurate with his earnings will eventually suffer a similar fate to the burger flipper who is not the equal of his peers.

Our founding fathers created this country in a large part because they were being taxed to support The lifestyles of other people, and were prohibited from using their skills, effort and ingenuity to make things that would compete with existing businesses.. Look up the Stamp Act, the Boston Tea Party, The Manufacturing History Of the United States.


"For a long period after the settlement of the American colonies their industries were mainly agricultural. The growth of commercial interests was restricted by English laws. The colonies were permitted to trade only with the mother-country, even their trade with one another being made illegal. And the products of America were largely carried in English ships. After the Revolution this state of affairs ceased to exist. The shipping interests of America rapidly extended, its commerce spread to all parts of the habitable world, and in the early years of the nineteenth century the business of importation and exportation grew with extraordinary rapidity."

In my opinion the pendulum has already swung too far in the progressive direction and needs to swing back toward free enterprise. We need equal opportunity not equal spreading of wealth.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbteiN1XtDg

[jaystuw]

I'm back from swimming and dinner, refreshed and feeling good, read the comments. No surprise that everyones jets are spooled up and running hot. For a moment I am bewildered as to which comment to work, so many overwhelm me.

It also makes it easy, I have a blank slate and can move in any direction. I'll start by saying that disparity of wealth can be framed in anyway anyone wants, but the bottom line is that it is real, its here, and its a problem. Maybe it will be a non-starter, maybe the rich will simply own everything someday and everyone will be happy , maybe that is not a safe bet. What happens if the masses bottom out, go crazy, and then do sad but predictable things to the objects and people they deem responsible? Nah, never happen! Except until one leafs through a history book and finds that poor people have a nasty habit of turning on their betters if not properly managed and maintained.

jay

[btroj]

I see it less as rich vs poor than I do us vs govt.

I do not see govt intervention in the markets As a good thing. No more bailouts, ever. Not for industry, banks, or individuals. Make bad choices, deal with the consequences. Let the markets correct themselves.

Every time the govt bails someone put they fail to learn the lesson. Bad choices that have a safety net tend to beget more bad choices.

There's re poor people in this country. Key thing is this, do you really believe the govt is getting them out of poverty? I don't, the Dems keep them poor enough to promise them more help in exchange for votes.

Yeah, I am that cynical

[jcwit]

I see it less as rich vs poor than I do us vs govt.

I do not see govt intervention in the markets As a good thing. No more bailouts, ever. Not for industry, banks, or individuals. Make bad choices, deal with the consequences. Let the markets correct themselves.

Every time the govt bails someone put they fail to learn the lesson. Bad choices that have a safety net tend to beget more bad choices.

There's re poor people in this country. Key thing is this, do you really believe the govt is getting them out of poverty? I don't, the Dems keep them poor enough to promise them more help in exchange for votes.

Yeah, I am that cynical

YUP! That's how it works.

[dtknowles]

............. What happens if the masses bottom out, go crazy, and then do sad but predictable things to the objects and people they deem responsible? Nah, never happen! Except until one leafs through a history book and finds that poor people have a nasty habit of turning on their betters if not properly managed and maintained.

jay

I often wondered if that is what the rich liberal/progresive lawmakers and power brokers think they are doing with the government handouts for the poor. Trying to manage the poor with taxpayer money so poor don't resort to crime or violence and if it gets them more votes they don't mind that too. I think that they also think these programs help the poor and it might help some but it handicaps many of them because it lets them settle of the freebees and what they can scam instead of really getting ahead.

Tim

[btroj]

I prefer not to know what will happen. I do know that the Red Cross will need lots of donations of blood

[bhn22]

Except until one leafs through a history book and finds that poor people have a nasty habit of turning on their betters if not properly managed and maintained.

jay

One serious point needs to be made here. You do not "manage" or "maintain" people. You lead people, you develop people, and you help people. You manage and maintain things. Historically, when the poor are lead from their slums, or whatever you choose to call them, it is by such great leaders as Adolph Hitler, Vladimir Lenin, Mao Zedong, and other luminaries of the twentieth century. What is the peoples reward for following such people? Usually an even worse existence than before, and often a miserable death. Throughout history, it has never worked out well at all. The meek do not inherit the earth, and Camelot is just a Broadway musical. If you want out of a meager existence, you must work for it. This has been demonstrated throughout history. Nobody is going to take Michael Bloombergs billions away from him and give part of it to you. You can be a billionaire if you really want to be. History also proves this is true, but you must work hard for wealth, or be born into wealth, it simply doesn't fall from the sky.

[btroj]

Aren't sheep managed and maintained?

If the poor feel a need to managed and maintained then maybe we should treat them like livestock. The northern plains have plenty of grazing land.

[starmac]

I have to wonder why any able bodied person is truly poor, it is their choice to be or not to be. They may not be able to get rich, but anyone that is fit to work can make a decent living in our society. From what I have seen in my life, people with enough drive and really wants to can become pretty well off.

From everything what I've read, our poor would be considered very well to do in a lot of countries, that some people think we should adopt their ways.

[btroj]

Oh no, there is that pesky drive thing again. We can't go expecting people to work for a living, can we? If people want to stay home, have kids, and do drugs that doesn't mean they don't deserve a middle class life style, does it?

Oops, forgot the purple again.

[Blacksmith]

I'm back from swimming and dinner, refreshed and feeling good, read the comments. No surprise that everyones jets are spooled up and running hot. For a moment I am bewildered as to which comment to work, so many overwhelm me.

It also makes it easy, I have a blank slate and can move in any direction. I'll start by saying that disparity of wealth can be framed in anyway anyone wants, but the bottom line is that it is real, its here, and its a problem. Maybe it will be a non-starter, maybe the rich will simply own everything someday and everyone will be happy , maybe that is not a safe bet. What happens if the masses bottom out, go crazy, and then do sad but predictable things to the objects and people they deem responsible? Nah, never happen! Except until one leafs through a history book and finds that poor people have a nasty habit of turning on their betters if not properly managed and maintained.

jay

Some people have more wealth, some are smarter, some better athletes, better looking, taller, sing better, stronger, blond, brunett, better artists, writers, etc. Why is any of that a Problem?

[smokeywolf]

"I see it less as rich vs poor than I do us vs govt." btroj, the rich are the gov't and the gov't is the rich. The poor are barely in the equation; they are a free source of Dem votes. I say free, because the Dems don't pay for the poor votes we do, through the taxes that are extorted from us.
You are right about "us vs gov't".

"Aren't sheep managed and maintained?" btroj, to the ruling class, the wealthy, the politicians, the wealthy politicians, we are sheep! The one claim most of us here can make is, at least we're not sheeple!


"I'll start by saying that disparity of wealth can be framed in anyway anyone wants, but the bottom line is that it is real, its here, and its a problem."


Some people have more wealth, some are smarter, some better athletes, better looking, taller, sing better, stronger, blond, brunett, better artists, writers, etc. Why is any of that a Problem?

When I read Jay's sentence, all I see is a reference to wealth disparity being a problem. I'm a little unclear as to how your references to "some are smarter, some better athletes, better looking, taller, sing better, stronger, blond, brunett, better artists, writers, etc." pertain to his statement.

smokeywolf

[southpaw]

When I read Jay's sentence, all I see is a reference to wealth disparity being a problem. I'm a little unclear as to how your references to "some are smarter, some better athletes, better looking, taller, sing better, stronger, blond, brunett, better artists, writers, etc." pertain to his statement.

smokeywolf

I think Blacksmith meant the disparity of wealth due to people being more motivated, smarter, taller, stronger ect., rather than the government taking money from the wealthier and giving it to the not so motivated.

Jerry Jr.

[btroj]

Face it, we are different. Some of us have skills or abilities that make us pretty unique. Being Unique is often worth money if the thing that makes you different is beneficial to someone.

Face it, people would rather watch good looking guys on TV than most of us........

[jcwit]

Face it as btroj says, some people are just unique.

Besides his inherited wealth John Kennedy's charisma was definitely an asset to his success.

Some folks got it, some don't.

[Pb2au]

Exactly. ^^^^^
Merit and ability generally are the points that define.
Case in point. My brother in law prefers to smoke dope, work a rather unchallenging job and live in a rat hole apartment. The whole time attempting to father as many children as possible. This is by choice.
Btroj was also correct in stating that certain people want them to stay poor and on the dole. The dole will never fix the problem. It does however make one's political future a bit more secure.

[btroj]

Looking at the classes my daughter is taking to become an ME I can see why engineers are in demand and paid well.

How many people start as a burger flipper and work into management? Managers at a BK or McDonalds may not get rich but I bet they get benefits and can afford to have a family.

Want more from life? Then go get it. Sitting around pissing and moaning get you nowhere. Hard work, dedication, and drive make all the difference in the world.

[BNE]

Every time the govt bails someone put they fail to learn the lesson. Bad choices that have a safety net tend to beget more bad choices.




Amen. If unemployment is not at least a little unpleasant, then there will be no desire created for someone to work.

[dragon813gt]

How many people start as a burger flipper and work into management? Managers at a BK or McDonalds may not get rich but I bet they get benefits and can afford to have a family.

Damn straight they can. They won't be setting the world on fire. And they will be working a lot of hours. But they will be able to provide for their families. They are always hiring managers around me and they train you. This has always been my last resort plan. Luckily the skills I have will always be in demand. But it doesn't hurt to have a backup plan.

[Blacksmith]

"I see it less as rich vs poor than I do us vs govt." btroj, the rich are the gov't and the gov't is the rich. The poor are barely in the equation; they are a free source of Dem votes. I say free, because the Dems don't pay for the poor votes we do, through the taxes that are extorted from us.
You are right about "us vs gov't".

"Aren't sheep managed and maintained?" btroj, to the ruling class, the wealthy, the politicians, the wealthy politicians, we are sheep! The one claim most of us here can make is, at least we're not sheeple!


"I'll start by saying that disparity of wealth can be framed in anyway anyone wants, but the bottom line is that it is real, its here, and its a problem."



When I read Jay's sentence, all I see is a reference to wealth disparity being a problem. I'm a little unclear as to how your references to "some are smarter, some better athletes, better looking, taller, sing better, stronger, blond, brunett, better artists, writers, etc." pertain to his statement.

smokeywolf

What I was pointing out was people have many differences. Why is one difference, wealth, a problem and none of the differences I listed not a problem? If he had said that psychopaths, or murderers, or criminals, child molesters, pickpockets, liberals, etc. were a problem then I wouldn't have questioned it.

[jaystuw]

Me, a utility worker, championing the cause of non-producing citizens? No, I am not wired that way. I need to paint this with a finer brush . Yeah, I'm a lefty ( hardly a revelation or surprise). A blue collar lefty , I am harder edged on my feeling towards those that don't work. In my vision of America, everyone that is able, works, everyone contributes to his or her own well being. That's the way it is in nature, that's the way it is in life. No work, no free apartment, no free money, no babies. Break the law, go to jail, then be put to work. All pretty basic regardless of ones politics.


My sympathy is with the working poor, a percentage of the population that far outnumbers, non workers. A group that is growing in numbers as we speak. I'm not interested in giving a hand out, but I am for a fair wage. As I see it now, business practices generate more working poor due to less workers, more work load, no benefits, less pay. All this is familiar territory. Whats it mean? to put it bluntly, it sucks to be a worker, but if you're the owner, payday! The extra profits come at a cost to the quality of life of the guy on the assembly line putting the widgets together.


The wealthy enjoy the benefits of a country that caters to them and allows them wealth beyond comprehension . They want for nothing, Have them keep more than they can possibly use in a thousand life times. But hey, trickle back some of that American dream to the bottom feeders that are making that wealth happen. Jay

[starmac]

A living wage, fair wage , all or that is bogus, the higher an area pays the more it takes to make a living. Property, taxes and everything else goes up in comparison to the areas wages. a non producing worker is just that, if an employer has someone they do not make money off of, in one way or other, then that employee is just a liability.

[btroj]

I hate the term "fair wage". Who decides what fair is? Right now it is the market place, fair enough for me.

I feel the same way about the working poor as many do the original poster- can't make a living wage where you are then move to where you can or learn a jobs kill so you can make a decent wage.

Why these "working poor" don't do something to improve there situation I don't know.

I have an uncle who loves in northern WI. Worked at a foundry, union went on strike. Foundry closed. He refused handouts. Delivered newspapers in the morning, worked anything he could during the day. Delivered prescriptions for a pharmacy, worked a furniture store. He did anything needed to support his family. Worked well over 40 hours a week. Why? Pride. Self esteem. A desire to do for himself. All that and he is a liberal voter.

There is work out there but you have to be willing to go find it. Learn a skill. Learn a trade. Do something. Most important is to quit bellyaching and get your butt in gear and make your situation better. Stop blaming others.

This nation would be far better off if people would MAN up and make their own way. Don't buy things you can't afford. Don't have kids you can't afford. Don't wait for others to improve your situation, take charge of your life and make something of it.

There is money out there waiting to be made. What we lack is hard working, dedicated, determined people to go make that money.

[cbrick]

My sympathy is with the working poor, a percentage of the population that far outnumbers, non workers. A group that is growing in numbers as we speak. I'm not interested in giving a hand out, but I am for a fair wage. As I see it now, business practices generate more working poor due to less workers, more work load, no benefits, less pay. All this is familiar territory. Whats it mean? to put it bluntly, it sucks to be a worker, The extra profits come at a cost to the quality of life of the guy on the assembly line putting the widgets together. Jay

The simple truth is that there aren't many legal U.S. workers trying to earn a living and support a family on minimum wage, if you think there is you need to turn off NBC, CNN etc news. Most minimum wage jobs (burger flippers & such) are entry level jobs. In a competitive job market wages are paid based on skill needed & experience. If you have no skills or experience and your job can be done by literally anyone off the street with 10 minutes training how much do you think you should be compensated? That is a minimum wage job!

But if you're the owner, payday! BULL pucky. A friend of mine has custom cabinet business, he has some skilled employees that he keeps on payroll even in slow times and more often than not they make more than he does yet he has all the responsibility to keep the business viable, make all investments, pay all the bills and get the new customers.

Very typical progressive reasoning, if you own a business your rolling in money and too cheap to let the employees have ANY of it. Just typical liberal nonsense. Every time they jack up the minimum wage it puts more people out of work because the small business's that use these people have X amount of dollars coming in, if they can't meet the payroll with the number of people they have they use less people. That is plain reality! The world liberals live in there is no reality, just warm fuzzy feel good feelings.

Rick

[btroj]

Interestingly I spoke to my barber yesterday about just that Rick. He laughs at the idea that business owners are rolling in dough. He spends part of his day doing nothing which means no income. He pay rent, taxes, utilities, and accountant to make sure his books are right.

Is it wrong for a guy who risked everything to follow his dream, worked untold hours, and went without vacations for years to reap the rewards of his efforts? That is what many business owners do to get things off the ground. They deserve the money they make if things work out just the same as they will pay the price if the business fails. THAT is the American dream.

[jaystuw]

Obviously, we see people, and life in general, through a dramatically different lense. But I like that, That's why I am here. aside from the hobby. Rest assured that I am just as bewildered by your outlook on life as you fellows are with mine. I wonder which of us has the more insightful and correct outlook . In the everyday world, outside of castboolits, The numbers are in my favor, my outlook is widespread, my message is strong. Lets hope the message that prevails, yours or mine , is fair and good. jay

[onceabull]

Iffen that barber is anything like 66.66xxxxx % of the one man shops I've seen, only 2/3 of sales make it onto the books... BUT,if that's what it takes to live ones dream, so be it.... Onceabull

[btroj]

The message that is fair and good isn't yours! Socialism isn't about right or fair, it is about power and money. It doesn't lead to more social justice, it leads to less.

How does making ME into working poor increase justice? If what you propose was really about lifting others up I could buy it, it isn't. What you propose is to tear all but the absolute top income earners down to the bottom. It would eliminate the middle class entirely.

What I see is massive bloodshed. I see riots in the streets. I see massive chaos. I will never give up what I is rightfully mine. The nation is divided but the side on the right, which is RIGHT, will not give up the fight. We will not go quietly in the night.

[btroj]

Iffen that barber is anything like 66.66xxxxx % of the one man shops I've seen, only 2/3 of sales make it onto the books... BUT,if that's what it takes to live ones dream, so be it.... Onceabull

At 12 bucks a cut he isn't making big bucks. I can call and get in easily. I bet he does 15 cuts a day. Even if he makes 300 a day it isn't much after rent and utilities. He is hardly getting rich.

[cbrick]

No Jay, your "outlook" is widespread in the area you live in and probably amongst your friends. That is hardly widespread. The numbers are not in your favor, if you would take off the Kool-Aid colored glasses and think it out for yourself instead of viewing it as you would like to see it reality may be a bit shocking to you. Just as this thread started out, in the metro areas of CA and other large cities including some state capitals the touchy feel good ideas are common, the rest of the country lives in reality. It is not "my outlook on life or people" I simply look at the reality, something it seems liberals are incapable of, life is not a fantasy computer game.

Small business owners are not filthy rich who's only goal is to make sure their employees live in the slums and starve to death. My next door neighbor works for a small business here in town with about 15 employees, business is slow. They have laid off a few people but the payroll is met, the taxes paid, the rent paid, the lights are still on, insurance and all the rest is paid. So what is the down side for these filthy rich husband & wife business owners? Neither one of them has had a paycheck in three months. How long do you suppose they can keep that up before the doors are closed for good?

Reality is the polar opposite of progressives.

Rick

[starmac]

No one will ever understand people. I have never even understood why someone would even apply for a minimum wage job. I had one when I was 14 that I kept for two weeks, before I thought this is stupid.
I have noticed (grew up with dopers) that 90 percent of maryjane smokers, does not have much ambition, drive, whatever you want to call it. They seem to be content with what ever they are doing if it pays enough to make a decent living or not. If one looks around at all, there are always ways of making more than 40 hours a week at minimum wage, even for a kid willing to work a little.
Many folks focus more on security too much these days than they do on making a living. It is all too easy to sit in a cheap easy job and know you will have it week after week and maybe even a little govt assistance to go along with it, but I just don't see one ever being happy in the long haul.

[cbrick]

How does making ME into working poor increase justice? If what you propose was really about lifting others up I could buy it, it isn't. What you propose is to tear all but the absolute top income earners down to the bottom. It would eliminate the middle class entirely.

That's correct. What the progressives cry out against is trickle down economics and what they propose and scream out for is trickle up poverty and misery.

Rick

[btroj]

Trickle up poverty is exactly what I call it.

[Alvarez Kelly]

When there is no incentive for people to take risks, seeking a nice reward, investment and innovation will slow to a grinding halt. If I knew that my hard work and investment of time, materials, expertise, and yes, money, was going to be rewarded by redistribution of my accumulated wealth to the lame and lazy, I would not bother. I could just be on the dole with the others.

If you want to get ahead, pay attention in school, get training, and show up for work. Develop a skill set. I'm amazed at how many people are looking for a job. Any job. They are not qualified to do anything! But they want $15 an hour.

I have a hard time finding people who want to work. There is no shortage of people who want a paycheck. There is a big difference.

[cbrick]

Starmac, I received a fairly shocking education on ambition, motivation & personal drive working 34 years in the film industry. Over those years there where numerous film locations downtown LA, in downtown LA there is no shortage of homeless people of all colors and persuasion's. Working 15+ hours a day gave me ample opportunity to talk with literally hundreds of them and year after year the same reality became clear, most of them are exactly where they want to be. Does that sound harsh? Perhaps but it's reality none the less. Sure there are hard luck cases but most of them have literally zero ambition or drive, they are happiest with no responsibilities of any kind, no rent, no bills of any kind, no family or anyone else to be responsible for or to. Seeing this for so many years it's not hard to understand that someone with only slightly more ambition than that would look for and accept a minimum wage job, no responsibility and no major effort required.

As someone that has had a job since I was 14 and now working 80+ hours a week to get ahead it took several years for that reality to sink in and is pretty tough to understand. Truth is there are people with that little drive and/or ambition.

As a side note, the true hard luck cases generally don't stay on the street very long, they work at it and find ways to improve their situation. A large percentage of them stay where they are happiest.

Rick

[btroj]

I work with lots of RX techs who have no drive or desire to do more. They are content with 10 to 15 an hour. They do a good job but they are not going to do much more than get by at those wages. Why don't they do more? Drive and desire.

[starmac]

Cbrick, I came to basically the same conclusion years ago. basically that people are doing what they want to do. I don't have a lot of sympathy for hard luck homeless anymore.
Is that heartless Yes, but most homeless have some kind of story (scam) to tell.

I unloaded in Georgia once, and parked in a truckstop to sleep after an all nighter. this was on Sunday, so no load until monday. When I woke up I went and ate and basically killed a couple hours, before going back out to the truck and noticing my lights burning REAL dim. lol It wasn't but just a few minutes before some guy with a hard luck story needed gas to get to a new job he needed to be at in florida the next morning.. I told him I would fill his tank if he jumped me off, which he did. I was back in there a few months later and he hit me up with the same story. I called him on it and he explained he wasn't going anywhere, his wife was a cook there and he scammed people out of enough to make a decent living. lol

[Blacksmith]

Economics 101 the law of supply and demand. When supply is greater than demand prices fall. When demand is greater than supply prices rise.

The supply of unskilled, uneducated, unmotivated, workers in most areas exceeds the demand for entry level marginal jobs so the wages at that end of the spectrum are low. They would be lower but the government mandated price support called "minimum wage" artificially keeps the wages above the rate they should be.

There is great demand and there are plenty of good paying rewarding jobs available at the other end of the spectrum for experienced, educated, motivated workers. If you want one of those jobs just do what it takes to get there. You can go to school or take courses. You can take a job that pays less than you were making in another field to get the experience. You can move to another area. You can show you have a can do, do whatever it takes attitude and will give your employer a full days work + to earn your pay.

The supply of burger flippers is greater than the demand.

The demand for Tool and Die Makers is greater than the supply.

If people don't want to do what is necessary to better themselves then they should not complain. Life is not "FAIR".

[onceabull]

At the rate the chain store Universities are puking out RxTechs, wages for same will likely be very near the legal minimums if a few years..for those people's sake ,one can hope they can make enough to repay their student loans... Onceabull

[btroj]

Onceabull, I don't hire those people. We train on the job and promote from within. Some programs are, in this area, full of welfare types who view it as a free education but have no desire to actually become employed. I have a tech who taught at one of those schools, she had a single student she would even consider hiring.

[dtknowles]

Rewards for people who start or own a successful business should be huge. A local Aerospace facility laid off a bunch of very talented people here a few years ago. I was one and I tried retirement. A younger guy I worked with saw this as an opportunity and started a company and hired some of us. Three years later we are about to break into the big time. He has been paying me 6 figures during that time and I am sure that he charges our customers much more than that for the services work I do and I donate (work for free) time to help put together proposals so we can win other more lucrative work. We are about to win our second production contract but because we are a startup the capital expenses for equipment and facilities for the production work means a lot of debt for him. The company is his in its entirety, none of the workers have put any cash into the company and he has not asked. He has created 15 high paying jobs by mortgaging himself to the hilt, working a full time job and running this company with some help from his wife and with the new contract is about to double the size of the company. He will still have to keep his day job to pay his bills because this company will not start showing a profit anytime soon. If he realizes his dream and this company continues to grow and makes him a millionaire, I say he deserves it and more. His wife and kid deserve it too. I know how hard he works and how much he has at risk it this tanks (everything but his family and his skills, back to square one). Don't try and tell me that business owners do not deserve every penny that they can legally earn. If you don't like what they pay you, leave for another job or start your own business.

On a different note if a business owner keeps some or all of his cash sales (tips included) off the books he is stealing for all of us and cheating his competition and deserves to go to jail. My sister owned a floral business and eventually closed and took a job in wholesale flowers. She could not make enough money with her shop even working long hours doing a lot of the work herself as well as running the business. Part of the reason was the competition was tough and some of her workers had worked for the competition and they said when they worked for the competition they were paid cash, no withholding (no taxes, no social security, no medicare) and that they believed the competitions cash sales did not go on the books and they even collected sales taxes on these sales. We were raised such that that kind of cheating was not acceptable so she found a different path.

Tim

[MtGun44]

btroj, cbrick, blacksmith, starmac, dtknowles, --- Thanks and AMEN!

Well said!

Bill

[jaystuw]

Lots of stuff. lets cut thru it and get down to the brass tacks. same question I had before, The wealthy are doing better than ever, the middle class are treading water, the poor are flat out sinking. Healthy? substainable? Should not all classes sink or swim as a group? Is that not the way it used to be? Are the wealthy that much smarter and more valuable to our economy than they were in the 50s or 60s. are the poor that much slower and stupid! Maybe a little or a lot of greed has enterd the picture, don't you think. jay

[dragon813gt]

Do you really think that any of this is new? You really need to study history if you do. It boils down to you want everything to be "fair". I sure as hell don't want that. That's like a sporting event with no winners.

[btroj]

Lots of stuff. lets cut thru it and get down to the brass tacks. same question I had before, The wealthy are doing better than ever, the middle class are treading water, the poor are flat out sinking. Healthy? substainable? Should not all classes sink or swim as a group? Is that not the way it used to be? Are the wealthy that much smarter and more valuable to our economy than they were in the 50s or 60s. are the poor that much slower and stupid! Maybe a little or a lot of greed has enterd the picture, don't you think. jay

No, you don't get it.

We want them all to learn to swim. We won't swim for them.

You are proposing that I should drown because they chose to not swim.

You blame their condition on us, we blame much of it on them.

Do you really believe the govt is the answer? Really?

[jmort]

There is not a finite amount of wealth. Think about it. The Fed has been creating a trillion dollars a year by punching a few buttons on a computer. Rich people are not holding anyone back. I don't get how you can't understand that wealth is elastic, there is no limit. If we had less regulation and less taxation we would be a far wealthier nation. In your world only union goon leadership would be wealthy. Like my professor in Law School said, if you gave all the money/wealth to poor people it would end up right back where it started. There is no limit on wealth.

[Love Life]

We want them all to learn to swim. We won't swim for them.

You are proposing that I should drown because they chose to not swim.

You blame their condition on us, we blame much of it on them.


I want to get this tattooed on my neck and make a rap video.

This is probably the best I've seen it said (typed) ever.

[btroj]

At what point is a poor man demanding money from me not greed?

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a Man to fish, feed him for life. What are we to do with those who refuse to fish? I call them bait.

[Love Life]

There is not a finite amount of wealth. Think about it. The Fed has been creating a trillion dollars a year by punching a few buttons on a computer. Rich people are not holding anyone back. I don't get how you can't understand that wealth is elastic, there is no limit. If we had less regulation and less taxation we would be a far wealthier nation. In your world only union goon leadership would be wealthy. Like my professor in Law School said, if you gave all the money/wealth to poor people it would end up right back where it started. There is no limit on wealth.

The gospel. I had to STOP MAKING MONEY so I didn't break into a higher tax bracket. How screwed up is that?

[btroj]

I want to get this tattooed on my neck and make a rap video.

This is probably the best I've seen it said (typed) ever.


Thanks, just be sure to give credit......

And royalties........

[Love Life]

Greedy!!

[Alvarez Kelly]

Lots of stuff. lets cut thru it and get down to the brass tacks. same question I had before, The wealthy are doing better than ever, the middle class are treading water, the poor are flat out sinking. Healthy? substainable? Should not all classes sink or swim as a group? Is that not the way it used to be? Are the wealthy that much smarter and more valuable to our economy than they were in the 50s or 60s. are the poor that much slower and stupid! Maybe a little or a lot of greed has enterd the picture, don't you think. jay

No. I don't think there is any more greed now than there has been I the past. I think there are more career takers now though. I regularly see it first hand. People don't want to work entry jobs and build a skill set. If they did, they would lose the freebies our government gives out. Our government has created a class of people comfortable with their own stupidity. I have personally witnessed this dozens of times every year for the last 15 years. It gets real old.

I am not willing to work my tail off to support those who won't get off the couch.