Mystery Jacket Color

[ricklaut]

I derimmed some Win SuperX last night (wow - the punch pushed through a much higher percentage than the Rem jackets I did previously). This morning, I tumbled them using my standard forumula.. HF tumbler, SS pins, a quirt of dish soap and a 9mm case full of Lemishine. Instead of nice, shiny jackets, I got this:

http://reloadingcreations.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/IMG_1252_Mystery_Jackets-624x468.jpg

I tumbled two batches - one in each barrel. They both looked the same, so it wasn't as if something dropped into one that wasn't in the other. They look like what I got one time when I was doing brass and mistakenly got a steel case mixed in. There was lots of black in the water... stained my fingers, left a good mess in the sink (cleaned before raising the spousal unit's ire). I use a magnet to pick up stray pins; the only thing magnetic in the barrels was the SS pins.

Going into the tumbler, they looked like any other .22LR brass I'd worked with. The only difference between what I did last night (other than the brand of brass) and my first 3k or so of brass was I opened my second container of BTs lube and used that to lube these. That should have nothing to do with it.

Any thoughts / ideas? The look is growing on me - If this color holds up through two more tumbles (after annealing and after point forming), it will be interesting to see the bullets.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

I was having the same problem. The brass came out kind of dull looking. I proceeded to clean my pins and the rinse the drum and it took care of the problem. When you keep using the pins without actually cleaning them they do gather quite a bit of dirt and grime. They may look clean, but they could probably use a good rinse. I took a couple 1x's and made a 1'x1' square frame. I then placed an old shirt that I had cut open on top of the frame and put a rubber band around the extra material to hold it in place. I put the frame over the sink and dumped the pins on the shirt and rinsed them with hot water while sloshing them around a bit.
9181191812

[Prospector Howard]

Ricklaut, I think I'd be more concerned about the number of push throughs that you're getting than the color of the brass. You shouldn't be getting hardly any (or virtually none), if the derim die and the punch are matched up properly in size. If your getting alot of punch throughs with the thinner cases, then the thicker Fed and CCI must be even worse to get through the die successfully. There was someone on here a while back that was having problems tearing the cases with a dome shaped and what seemed like on overly fat derim punch (it might have been you; I can't recall). I tried to explain to the person how to remedy the situation. It's not a good idea to be getting alot of tears on the bases and push throughs. Personally, I haven't had a push through in years.

[BT Sniper]

My first guess is you got excess lube in your tumbler and on your pins. But that can't be it since you anneal your cases first and bake off all the lube?????

I did run my SS pins by themselves in the tumbler with some high strength degreaser ("super clean" in a purple bottle, I'm sure simple green or other cleaner would work too) and hot water to clean them. It was a noticeable difference in how clean the pins where and haven't had any problems with getting shiny brass. Could you need more lemishine? I have found that cold water, as instructed from SS media.com works better then hot water for shiny brass that doesn't tarnish right before your eyes like it does with hot water.

It does sound like your pins could use a cleaning.

BT

[ricklaut]

Ricklaut, I think I'd be more concerned about the number of push throughs that you're getting than the color of the brass. You shouldn't be getting hardly any (or virtually none), if the derim die and the punch are matched up properly in size. If your getting alot of punch throughs with the thinner cases, then the thicker Fed and CCI must be even worse to get through the die successfully. There was someone on here a while back that was having problems tearing the cases with a dome shaped and what seemed like on overly fat derim punch (it might have been you; I can't recall). I tried to explain to the person how to remedy the situation. It's not a good idea to be getting alot of tears on the bases and push throughs. Personally, I haven't had a push through in years.

I think that was me - you'd commented on the roundness of the jackets I was getting. BT assured me that was as designed; perhaps he (or others using his tools) will weigh in on my percentage? I haven't derimmed CCI / Fed yet - my first 3.5k was Rem. I had some with the Rem brass, but certainly not this many.

[ricklaut]

I think that was me - you'd commented on the roundness of the jackets I was getting. BT assured me that was as designed; perhaps he (or others using his tools) will weigh in on my percentage? I haven't derimmed CCI / Fed yet - my first 3.5k was Rem. I had some with the Rem brass, but certainly not this many.

Thanks, Brian - actually, I'm cleaning before I anneal to try to minimize the scale, and I am tumbling again after annealing. I'll give the pins / tumbler a cleaning and see what I get. I guess it surprised me to have gone from my last batch (lubed point formed bullets) that came out super shiny to this.

Any thoughts on the number of push throughs I'm seeing with Win brass? I don't know what 'normal' is; you likely have a baseline.

[kweidner]

My push through average is about 4 or 6 per 1000? Usually they are federal. Try more lube and readjust die.

[MUSTANG]

http://reloadingcreations.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/IMG_1252_Mystery_Jackets-624x468.jpg


Looks like lanolin that is still in the mix, on the pins, and the brass. I have encountered the same problem in the past. Resorted to boiling the brass, pouring off the lanolin skim on the surface (lanolin is a wax, not an oil), and then the jackets into the tumbler. Also had to boil the pins to get the lanolin off them before using the Dawn/Lemi-Shine/Stainless Steel pin cleaning.

[BT Sniper]

"I guess it surprised me to have gone from my last batch (lubed point formed bullets) that came out super shiny to this."


So you polished formed bullets in the SS media? No problem with that but did the formed bullets that still have the lanolin lube on it?

BT

[ricklaut]

"I guess it surprised me to have gone from my last batch (lubed point formed bullets) that came out super shiny to this."


So you polished formed bullets in the SS media? No problem with that but did the formed bullets that still have the lanolin lube on it?

BT

Yes - everything I've tumbled has had the lanolin lube on it. Until this batch, the results were spectacular.

I'm cleaning everything up now (pins / tumbler / brass); we'll see what that gets me.

[Nickle]

I've seen similar myself, but I doubt lube had much to do with it.

I use an ultrasonic cleaner, but no pins. Going to try that soon.

I clean the brass, derim it, anneal it, clean again then make bullets.

[ricklaut]

So after a good cleanup (boiling and Simple Green), I'm back in business with shiny jackets again (30 minute tumble).

It seems I missed the memo about removing the lube prior to tumbling. As noted, I've been going straight into the wet tumbler with lubed jackets / bullets, but the inference in BTs question plus the tips in the benchrest article (this thread: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?224769-Bench-rest-quality-tips-amp-techniques!) have me thinking about Coleman fuel or similar to remove the lube before tumbling.

[BT Sniper]

I have always dunked my derimed jackets or final bullets in mineral spirits, after a short soak I rinse in water and dry to remove as much of the lube and mineral spirits as I can. Then tumble. Sounds like you got it all figured out.

Good shooting and swage on!

BT

[clodhopper]

I have had both the unshiny brass and about 2% push through with winchester 22 mag brass.
I rinsed out the pins and tumbler barrel, and ran the brass again, it came out nice on the second try.
Now I rinse the pins and barrel each load.

Winchester brand brass tends to crack at the edge of the rim. I get at least 2% sometimes 4% push through with with winchesters.

I have pushed through other brands of brass too, but the number is 1 or 2 a thousand.

[Prospector Howard]

You didn't say what your percentage of push throughs were. Another member (303 British) also commented on the shape and as I remember put up some pictures of jackets that were made with his tools. By the way, I listen to what 303 British has to say. He really seems to know what he's doing. It seems that alot of members here are more concerned about how pretty the bullet is instead of the integrity of the jacket. If you think about it, if your getting alot of push throughs and tears (and cracks at the edge of the rim; clodhopper); then do you feel safe shooting your home made bullets? I sure feel alot better knowing that I'm not damaging the jacket in the derim process.
I think that was me - you'd commented on the roundness of the jackets I was getting. BT assured me that was as designed; perhaps he (or others using his tools) will weigh in on my percentage? I haven't derimmed CCI / Fed yet - my first 3.5k was Rem. I had some with the Rem brass, but certainly not this many.

[clodhopper]

Prospector Howard,
The cracked cases that did not push through get culled before core seating.
They are pretty easy to spot.

[Prospector Howard]

That's good clodhopper, I hope others are culling the cases with cracks and tears. I'll bet there are some that are making bullets out of them anyway. Here's a wild concept; how about using a derim punch that's matched to the die and the type of brass you're derimming so that you don't get any push throughs and tears?

[fredj338]

I agree, dirty pins & tumbler. Rinse everything well in hot water & a little dish soap, especially after you tumble brass. With BT's dies, I have yet to push thru a rim during derimming, regardless of brand. I do NOT anneal until after derimming.