Thinking about building a steel building

[crabo]

I have never done this before. I am in the gathering information stage. My wife and I are working toward building our bee business so we can have a decent income when I retire.

What are the things I should be asking about? I am thinking a 40x60 building. It will need a concrete floor, and I can finish out the inside my self. I figure we will need a septic system which we can do, and bathroom and plumbing for sinks. This summer I will be visiting some of the larger commercial bee keepers we know to look at how they did it.

We are looking at buying a piece of land and building, vs buying a homestead that already has a couple of buildings on it already. My banker wants me to look at both options.

I know I would need overhead doors on each end, and a walk through door. I need to figure light fixtures and wiring, plumbing fixtures and pipe. I understand the obvious stuff, but it is the not so obvious that I need help with.

The building would be outside Grand Forks, ND. if anyone knows some good buildings in that area.

Thanks,

[beezapilot]

Steel buildings. I've built two from NUCOR, and can recommend them with a confident smile. They are the worlds largest recycler of steel, so what shows up on the truck is controlled by NUCOR from the scrap to finished project. The engineering is excellent, customer service is wonderful. I'll make some comments here in a brief format, if you have any questions, PM me for my number.

1- For very little extra money, they recommended that I get steel sheathing for the INSIDE of the building as well. So the interior of my building is white corrugated steel, you don't see the insulation / red iron/ wiring/ plumbing. It his highly reflective, and they were able to design in partitions for the building. The downside- the girts are 10" wide with inch and a half corrugations on either side means that a partition wall is 13" thick- that is a lot of floor space that gets lost.

2- Spray in insulation- 4" thick on the roof, 3" on the walls. I live in Fla, in the summer time I keep the AC set at 78 degrees (the exact opposite of the problem you're going to have.) and the stiffest power bill that I've gotten is $92 per month. That includes running machinery. In addition, with the spray insulation and the interior steel, the building inspector said that my shop was the only place to be during a hurricane- the insulation adds amazing structural strength as does the interior sheathing.

3- Eve height- the building is going to have a "cathedral ceiling" so the floor dimensions are only part of your heating calculations, the second building I built was in a cold climate with 20' eves, and a 30' peak on the ceiling. The VOLUME of the building makes it hard to heat, my shop has 10' eves and a 15' peak- so I can swing sheets of plywood, dimensional lumber ect with no problem. Point being that you want to consider the cathedral ceilings for both heating/ cooling and functional requirements and go as low as you can.

4- Took me a long battle with the county, but got 3 phase power run to the shop- resale increased and everything runs much more efficiently. The hidden bonus is 3 phase in the non commercial sector is uncommon- so buying second hand equipment is much cheaper if it is 3 phase.

5- Insulate the floor 2" blueboard under mine- concrete is no longer a giant heat sink.

6- Carports over / in front of your overheads. Keeps weather off the doors, a place to work in the shade in the summer, dry in the rain, etc.....

7- NUCOR, really! Can not say enough nice about them, they are a wonderful company. Made in the USA, by the way.

http://www.nucor.com/story/prologue/

[beezapilot]

Another link...
http://www.nucorbuildingsystems.com/


A note too- you can build this yourself. The second building I built with a buddy, we had a hi-lift. It is 50'X70' with 20' eves- we rented a crane to set the main frames and had it framed and sheathed in 10 days, working with just the two of us.

Every nut, bolt, rivet, screw was plainly labeled, well packaged, and everything fit perfectly.

[w5pv]

Good luck on your retirement

[Bullshop Junior]

Ive helped build several. Last one went up in two weeks, and then we put the concrete on after thr buildibg was up so we could do it after freeze up. We did concrete last on all of the ones i have helped build.

[beezapilot]

Morton makes a building that is a style that allows for concrete last, my building required 30"X30" footers so the concrete came first.

[Beekeeper]

Having done it and made every mistake possible I can only offer the following.
Make very sure the building is bee safe ( no openings for entrance).
Whatever you decide on size for the extracting room make it 50% bigger ( new equipment is always bigger than you expected)
Make sure you have enough room to expand the honey storage tank area and the barrel area as the "Man" banks on you storing it for him so he doesn't have to have extra space.
Not having it means you are left with little or no space to move around yourself.
Where you live you will need extra super storage and equipment storage ( truck, loader, trailer etc.) and inside storage is a lot better as you get to work in a dry warm enviroment during the winter.
I had a dug in ramp that allowed me to load and unload the truck using a dolly versus manhandling the supers.Saves the back and was worth every buck spent on it.
Have a friend that actually built a garage over his .
Most important is to make sure you have enough work space for making gear (supers ,tops, bottoms , you get the idea. Takes a large space just for the wood working end of it much less the mechanical.

Wish you luck in your endevor as it was a great business for me for 20 plus years.


beekeeper

[dbosman]

Some mentioned pouring the floor after the building it up. That's fine in warm parts of the country.
In Grand Forks, ND you'll probably have to have footings that go below the average frost line.
Local building permit folks will have details.

[Just Duke]

I have never done this before. I am in the gathering information stage. My wife and I are working toward building our bee business so we can have a decent income when I retire.

What are the things I should be asking about? I am thinking a 40x60 building. It will need a concrete floor, and I can finish out the inside my self. I figure we will need a septic system which we can do, and bathroom and plumbing for sinks. This summer I will be visiting some of the larger commercial bee keepers we know to look at how they did it.

We are looking at buying a piece of land and building, vs buying a homestead that already has a couple of buildings on it already. My banker wants me to look at both options.

I know I would need overhead doors on each end, and a walk through door. I need to figure light fixtures and wiring, plumbing fixtures and pipe. I understand the obvious stuff, but it is the not so obvious that I need help with.

The building would be outside Grand Forks, ND. if anyone knows some good buildings in that area.

Thanks,

Respectfully are you sure sir? -9 Degrees? http://www.wunderground.com/US/Nd/grand_forks.html

[Three44s]

I am not a bee guy but know some that are.

Colony die off has been a real challenge. If you can thrive inspite of it, you would be doing well as numbers of bee keepers and bees in general have taken a huge hit.

One thing I'll add about raising bees is that the folks that I know are big in bees and have recently been taking their bees in the winter and contracting for Controlled Atmosphere rooms (fruit storage) to keep them in. It is not cheap but they feel their bees and their bottom line are much better for it. These folks are extremely hard nosed and when they tell you something is working .... they darn well mean it.

There is a learning curve on this process but inspite of that ...... the people I mentioned are coming back ...... with a lot of enthusiasm.

As to buildings:

I would say that you want your big doors reinforced beyond your building code for that area. We have our big doors on our steel building built for kingdom come and we are not one iota sorry! If you scrimp on it and they wreck it's a mess!

Ours don't even rattle in 70+ mph head on winds but then we had them built to 100+ and added heavy struts 2X4" steel on every panel ..... build her heavy the first time so you don't have to re-build it later!!

Best of luck on your change of everything!

Three 44s

[Loudenboomer]

Crabo I live 12 miles east of Grand Forks. In the last couple of years I put up a 66'X120' shed and a 60'X80' Shop. Your welcome to stop buy for some ideas or coffee:)

[crabo]

Loudenboomer, I will look you up next summer. I live in North Texas and won't get back until then. My wife is the beekeeper, I teach high school auto collision repair. The family farm is 7 miles west of GF.

Do you have an indoor range in that 66x120 shed?

I'll get in touch in May. There

[xbeeman412]

I did My honey house , 40x60 12 ft eve height. Holler if I can help with bee info or building.

409-789-2839

[MtGun44]

My sister and her husband got a 30x84 Miracle Steel building put in and are really happy with it. It was
too big a job in the end for them to do by themselves, so they hired a couple of guys with experience and
helped/directed them.

Large custom steel I-beam bolted arc assemblies on concrete floor, then metal skin. Really nice building
in the end, should stand up to anything.

Miracle Steel (South Dakota) was bought by Heartland Industries in 2009, here is their new web site
under the name Worldwide Steel Buildings

http://www.worldwidesteelbuildings.com/

My sister avoided having the studs for the beam attach points cast into the slab, but she just had the
slab poured and put in the bolts with anchors afterwards to ensure proper alignment. It seemed
unlikely that the anchor studs would be properly located by the concrete contractor, so they avoided
that headache.

Bill

[Three44s]

I would have never gotten our local building code people to buy off on this:

"My sister avoided having the studs for the beam attach points cast into the slab, but she just had the
slab poured and put in the bolts with anchors afterwards to ensure proper alignment. It seemed
unlikely that the anchor studs would be properly located by the concrete contractor, so they avoided
that headache."

I am not judging the above just commenting.

We have SO much steel in our concrete on our 40X60' with lean to's on either side (64X60') that we'd never gotten sufficient anchors set in it by drilling after the fact.

And as much as after the fact anchoring has progressed with concrete, I would say the j-bolts we were required to use still hold a lot more.

I like things bear stout and was not disappointed.

But thinking back, our builder was not perplexed by getting things lined up prior to pouring. He sure checked and rechecked ........ and rechecked! ....... to be sure.

He made a jig for each steel post location that was there to keep the threaded studs dead on ......... and it took extra care to make sure the concrete was all the way to full contact.

A couple of things complicated our steel structure:

My wife wanted no concrete in the floor. Our footings had to be more robust and the footing engineer even required two buried concrete ribbons poured below the now gravel surface as cross ties between the piers. We had a frost wall with no footings on the engineer's prints. Both I and our builder did not like that!

We got permission from County Planning to add footings and we did so.

The other thing is that our engineer was on a mission to rub the local building authorities noses in something ........ he used our personal pocket book to accomplish that!

I still see red on that one ........ cost us a season of erection on that!

What he drudged up was "topographical effects of wind" and used it to make an example of our planning department. ......... and did not tell me what the $%#$%# he was up to!

I am turning off my "rant" before I really get fired up!! LOL!

Three 44s

[beezapilot]

J bolts are the building requirement here, I have 24 inch long 3/4 diameter J bolts. The concrete contractor was spot on with the alignment, he did mention that thermal cycles could loosen the nuts that hold the main frames, so have a slugging wrench and torque them about once a year- none have moved, but it seems good insurance to me.

[MtGun44]

Not selling an idea, just reporting. She is in SC, so not a gigantic freeze thaw cycle, although it does freeze
and even occasionally snow a bit there. In my engineering judgement, j-bolts cast in would be stronger, but
it will sure be one BEE-itch-kitty if you get them in wrong. I do like the idea of using jigs to get the
patterns right.

Bill

[bear67]

As a general contractor and in retirement, commercial and farm building erector, I have built metal buildings up to 50,000 sf. A pre engineered metal buildiing is often your best belt, but weld up frames and wooden post and beam are always alternated and can be comparison priced.
There are good engineered steel building fabricators located throughout the US. I have 7 within 150 miles of my house and they are all good. They are fabricating to engineering standards. When pricing buildings, be certain that freight to your job site is included--although I have picked up buildings at the shops when they were smaller and would fit on one or two gooseneck loads. You can load where the building can be erected as off loaded.
Your concrete concrete contractor choice is important. Must be square and level as possible. The prints will have a full scale bolt patter template--you can do it or the contractor can, but cut a plywood template for each beam footing and nail them to the fountation forms and the bolts will be held in place. You can use hose slipped over J bolts or duct tape and this keeps them in place and keeps cement off threads. I have used #3 rebar and welded j-bolts to it in the template pattern to keep rigid and verticle.
I highly encourage you to use a sheeting ledge where the wall sheets reach the foundation. This is a 1 1/2 X 1 1/2 inch rabbit in the outside top of slab/foundation so the sheets will go down past the top of slab and rest on the concrete. Much easier to seal the bottom of the sheets than letting the sheets go down the side of the footing/slab. Most building companies her in Tx, OK, NM include the design in their buildings. This requires that the slab be 3 inchs wider than the outside of the building. Also ask concrete contractor to put a door recess of at least 1/2 inch for the overhead doors, to keep rain from blowing under door seals. I use 5/8 or 3/4 and slope to outside. Then outside approaches are slightly lower than the recess.

I have erected building with cranes, winch trucks, loader tractors with stinger extensions for the bucket and hi-lift forklifts. It depends often on the height of your sidewalls, roof pitch and total weight of slope beams and wall posts bolted together as a unit.

Someone suggested NuCor and I used them on a school project one time and they were good. They will do the engineering to fit your area and requirements.
In Texas we engineer to different dead and live load requirements depending upon whether in hurricane region or snow region.
Good luck and feel free to ask specific questions--I don't know it all by any means, but have been in and around steel buildings for 60 years. We put us several Butler buildings for my Dad
s company in the late 50's. We have come a long way baby as those buildings used a bolt, rubber washer and nut like a grain bin.

[Three44s]

Bill,

I know there are lot of differences in areas and also what one's planning department is like ....... we have one of the nation's toughest.

You can call a building manufacturer and they ask you where you are ........ you tell them which County and they immediately moan and groan. Not only are they tough but also FICKLE here and our County Commisioners let them get away with it!

I was lucky, our Builder was on GREAT terms with them and that made things work much smoother ......... I'd start getting the shaft and I'd call him in ...... and things got worked out!!

The footing engineer made life miserable ......... and the building manufacturer was the pits on trim ....... but the structure is BEAR STOUT!

......... a red iron building with a 3/12 pitch ......... we absolutely love it ...... it took a good while for the hole in the wallet to heal ...........

Like beezapilot's building, our's required 3/4" X 24" j-bolts and yes, they had to be right. You measure ....... and measure ...... re-check the drawings and measure some more. We can have a bunch of snow ...... not often but it only takes one big one and a bunch of rain .... back in 96/97 we had just that ........ large buildings went down ALL over when our four feet of standing snow began soaking up unprecidented amounts of rain.

We don't have hurricanes but we can have some substantial straight line winds just the same (east slope of the Cascade mountains) and to our amazement .... we have been getting some tornado threats ........... for us here .... that's just not supposed to happen ..... but it is!

Our pours were in stages. We have the footing level (the base) with the steel ....... you built steel and poured again. I don't remember all the steps as it's been 6 plus years but it was not one big wham bam .... it all made sense and went just fine.

It sure is sweet though not having to worry about the bugs eating that big of an investment!

Go Steel!!

Three 44s

[Ramar]

My next concrete work floor is going to have circulating heat pipes in it on a layer of high density insulation!
Ramar

[crabo]

Thank you everyone for the advice so far.

[beezapilot]

The 2nd NUCOR building i put up was in the Seattle area and my buddy did the pipes in the floor for heating- the cost of running the hot water heaters to warm up that massive slab proved to be non-cost effective- just too much volume (very high ceilings) inside the building. With the cloud cover that the area is famous for a conversion to solar was a non option. In ND however... I've never been there in the winter months --but is there enough sunshine to run a solar heating system?

[Ramar]

beezapilot has got that right about cost of the start-up of getting the water up to temp. Best done or cheapest by a wood fired furnace with the coil attachment.
Ramar

[theperfessor]

My wife and I own a mini-storage facility. We have three Morton buildings which are 20' x 100' structures divided up into 5' x 10', 10' x 10', and 10' x 20' units. Lots of roll up type garage doors.

Treated wood post and frame construction, wood trusses, concrete floor (poured after the posts were set). No utilities (water or electricity). Four/five days for their crew to put up the building proper, another two days to put up doors.

Morton has a good warranty on wind damage and rust-through, local rep took care of all permits, etc. Our buildings were built over a period of years, each time we needed the buildings to be built in an expeditious fashion, couldn't be a do-it-yourself project.

We're happy with Morton, don't have any experience with do-it-yourself buildings or other contractor built structures. The local Morton rep has been real good dealing with the few service issues that have come up.

We have space on our property for one more building, it will most likely be a Morton.

No knowledge of beekeeping etc., so no advice there.