Second thoughts on hard cast at high velocity.

[44man]

I lost a deer last year with a hard cast boolit with a .355 meplat from my BFR 45-70. I just lost another with Dubber123's 448 gr boolit with a .375 meplat. Both deer were double lung shot behind the shoulder.
The deer this morning ran off a ways and stood facing away from me for 20 minutes. No way for a second shot. Then she slowly walked away until out of sight. I went to where she was last seen and in the next 1/4 mile I might have seen 5 drops of blood. I lost all sign and had to give up. I went to where I shot her and found cut off hair and a huge hole in the ground. Where she stood was froth and lung tissue she coughed up. I tried to track her from there and there was no blood trail.
I have never had a problem with the .44, .45 or .475 and deer never make more then 30 yd's. I have to wonder if the 45-70 is too fast and goes through without enough internal damage.
I would like to hear from others about hard, fast WFN boolits and deer. It looks like I will be making a hollow point or soft nose boolits. My gun does not shoot good with all soft boolits so I need hard drive bands. This is the only revolver I have this problem with on deer and they don't show the reaction I get with the slower guns. They just run without jumping at the hit.
I have an idea too much velocity negates the flat nose effect.

[475/480]

I would think the higher velocity gives a greater splash on contact with tissue.
I also give deer about 20 minutes before following them ,this way it gives them a chance to stiffen up and lay down.With that being said ,I am sure you have taken 10 times more deer than me,so it is puzzling as to what is happening.
I have shot 1 bison thru the lungs with a .475-460gr LFNGC at 1500 fps out of a TC Encore 475 GNR (45-70 necked up to 475),the bison mule kicked and went about 20 yds and layed down and did not get back up.

Sean

[felix]

Your thought about velocity ignoring nose style is right on. A flat nosed straw will pierce a telephone pole during a hurricane/tornado. Too much twist also hurts the killing effect of a boolit, such as a 323 versus a 308 using 16 and 10 respectively when both boolits have the same forward thrust (velocity at impact). So, lighten the projectile and slow the twist considerably, and that gun should be a better killing machine (assuming enough penetration, of course). Deer? Their skin/muscle/bone is no denser than ours, right? ... felix

[44man]

Well, I went from a 317 gr to a 448 gr with the same results. The problem is accuracy and range which I will not give up. No sense having a 45-70 and shoot .45 colt velocities. So my only choice will be to expand the boolit. With the velocity and weight, I won't lose penetration.
This is new to me because I never had this fast of a revolver and with such good results with slower revolvers, I never expected this. I have been pushing WFN hard boolits for years but am learning new things from actual experience. It is a hard lesson to lose deer with perfect hits. It seems as if the boolits just go through too fast. Even if the exit hole is larger then a .41 or .44, the internal damage is less so there is less bleeding.
Amazing that a deer can cough up lung tissue and walk away. Both lungs should have deflated.

[45r]

Thats why I use 240 XTPMag J-word bullets at 1900 fps out of my 454 Casull for deer and use cast boolits for practice and bigger critters.I use 240 Xtps in my 44 mag also.Most deer have dropped(high shoulder POA hits) or went no further than a 100 yards.I have to use them up so I save them for deer hunting since they don't go as far and I don't have to go off my property (most of the time) to get them.I tracked a 9-point buck for three miles one time and it took all day.I was lucky to bring it home.After my J-word bullets are gone I'm going to use air-cooled WW cast boolits hollow pointed on my forster trimmer.

[longbow]

At the other end of the animal spectrum, I had a similar experience with grouse and ptarmigan hunting in a comparison between .22 rimfire and .177 pellets.

I had a couple of grouse fly away after being shot with a .22 rimfire and a couple that took multiple hits to put down (makes the poor little bird sound vicious doesn't it?). Now grouse just aren't real tough so I kind of wondered. No these weren't head shots - can't always make them.

Then using a Weirauch .177 pellet rifle I got exactly the opposite result. The little pellet dropped them all dead instantly - again not head shots, that gives an obvious result.

The .22's were standard round nose (not the modified flat point SGB style I would use now) and the pellets were Beeman conical pointed pellets - so similar for penetration characteristics.

My conclusion was that the .22's zipped right on through without imparting enough energy into the grouse. The slower pellet of course didn't pass though and seemed to perform more like a big game bullet. Whatever the reason I had numerous grouse and prarmigan fall to .177 pellets much more convincingly that I have with a .22 (round nose). There didn't seem to be terrific tissue damage with the pellets but they dropped the birds on the spot.

Now you are comparing boolits with meplats but you may have something with the velocity is my point. Also, you comparing a larger tougher animal but your velocity observation is interesting.

Maybe some penetration tests are in order. I have a Bullet Test tube I have used for pellets and .22 but not anything bigger yet. The one I have is supposed to stop any handgun boolit so maybe a test of same boolit at high and low velocity to see if the cavity gives any clues.

If in doubt, the old Gould 300 gr. hollow point (Lyman 457122) had a good reputation in .45-70 rifle. A little big for grouse though.

[dubber123]

Well, I'm sorry to hear my boolits suck! I was wondering how they would work on deer, and it doesn't sound promising.

[jtaylor1960]

I have read some of Veral Smith's writings on killing power.He has it down to a science, literally.He has a formula based on the meplat size and velocity that predicts the size of the wound channel.He also says you can have a wound that is too large and that actually slows the animals death.After reading countless accounts of guys with slow to moderate bullet speeds putting down animals quickly.But as in this case what seems to be a powerful round doesn't seem to do the job.It's hard to believe unless you see it for yourself but here we see something that doesn't work.So what does?

[Bret4207]

Veral has a theory. Lets not call it a science as that conjures up images of absolutes and every time we have a "law" it seems to get broken. His theory makes sense and seems to be backed up by field reports. I agree with his conclusions mostly, but there is also some salesmanship at work there.

[Char-Gar]

Boys, it is pretty darn useless to try and do an autopsy on a deer that got away. There is not much to be learned from the event. There are so many reasons that deer walked off that it is sorta premature to start cussing the bullet right off the bat.

[freedom475]

I have seen whitetail deer take fatal hits and keep going. One case was a WT buck that was shot with a 243win, it totally destroyed a shoulder and one lung. We finally got it killed with a second shot to the neck after 6hrs. 2 river crossings, alot of brush and 4miles later.

On a different note I shot an elk with a 22LR BH pistol at 50 yrds. Shot it twice in the ribs and it only went 30yrds, started walking backwards, and fell over dead.

In many of the cases where the WT seemed to show signs of immortallity there was only one lung damaged, sometimes the shots were a little low into the briskott and others a little hi over the lungs.

I don't believe that velocity is the factor. As long as both lungs are hit, the lungs will deflate and the animal will die. On the elk shot with the 22lr both lungs had a very small hole and almost no tissue damage. On the WT mentioned only one lung was hit.

With high power rifles with "J's the energy is so great that the organs are often destroyed by the shock wave and flying bone fragments, not the bullet itself.

I have shot a lot of animals with my slow-moving 45-70 sharps black powder with 500gr spitzer style cast boolits and very few of them have droped in there tracks, most have been recovered with very little tissue damage and complete penitration. With my 1886 45-70 Browning shooting only "J's usually 400gr. Speer JSP as fast as I dare. I have recoverd several of the boolits and almost all the animals have droped on the spot.

Just my 2cents but I think that velocity is not the deciding factor nor is boolit weight or caliber as long as penitration and shot placement is ample.

Good hunting and no matter how well we prepair sometimes this happens. Or maybe the good Lord just had a another mouth to feed.

Freedom475

[waksupi]

This strikes me as strange. I have used cast bullets for over 20 years for hunting, and with a good hit, they generally have never went further than maybe 20 yards, aside from antelope that were at full stride. The only deer I ever had to track over 100 yards, was a doe shot with a spire point bullet, from a .45-70. The flat meplate bullets seem to kill very well, from 6.5, up to .45, in my experience.

[leftiye]

Veral's allegation that bigger wounds may kill slower about dumbfounds me. I heartily agree with 44man's solution. Of course I've previously stated several times my affinity for expanding boolits. My take on all of this is that first ya hit em where it's going to hurt (boolit placement). Second you want to penetrate the animal, but not too much more (don't waste your energy). Third bigger is better, do all the damage you can - within reason of course. You can make hamburger later. Hard boolits kill h@ll out of trees, rocks , and anything on the other side of the deer that they hit. Use that energy to bugger up yer games chances of leaving. It's seeming to me nowadays that you don't have to use really soft alloys in order to get expansion. Medium hardness, tough alloys (maybe specially alloyed with tin and copper) may be the ticket. That plus the fact that we are coming to know how to get higher velocities (1500 to 2000 fps maybe depending on cartridge used) out of softer boolits makes possible cast loads that will expand well out to probly in excess of 100 yards. You CAN have your cake and eat it too in this case.

[Larry Gibson]

44man

That's the problem with the "behind the shoulder" shot, sometimes it works and many times it doesn't. Look at the anatomy of a deer and you'll see behind the shoulder on a deer that is broadside or angling toward you means just a bullet hole through the two lobes of the lungs. Deadly yes but the deer can go a long ways before it dies. I gave up on that shot years ago for the very reason you've just encountered. The sure shot I've used since is to visualise a soccer ball laying low up agains the breastbone directly between the legs. This is the heart/lung area where all the major arteries and vessals run into and out of the heart. Put your bullet into that soccer ball regardless of the angle and the deer will go down in short order. Yes you will damage a little more meat but better that than no meat at all, eh?

Larry Gibson

[Lloyd Smale]

I really dont think you experienced a bullet failure. I think it was a combo of a couple things. First if you would have punctured both lungs that deer would have been dead inside of a 1/4 mile, even if done with a 22lr. Ive yet to see a deer with both lungs hit that went any farther. No doubt in your case only one lung was hit and it just took a while for the deer to blead to death. Second failure was giving up. That deer is no doubt dead and probably would have been found if you would have taken more extreem measures. Ive gone so far as to round up a dozen guys to beat the bush to find a deer and have never left a wounded deer in the woods. We spent 3 days one time tracking a deer that my nephew broke the front leg on but we found and killed it. I wont get into the softer vs. harder or fast vs. slow argument today and truth be told on a whitetail deer any 4570 bullet put properly into the boiler room will kill the deer and another one standing behind it. As to shot placement i go both ways. If theres snow i take lung shots if theres not i take shoulder shots (heart). 44man i feel kind of foolish even telling you these things as youve probably killed as many or more animals with cast bullets as i have and must have allready knew the whys of your post. Now get back out there and look for the ravens!!!

[EMC45]

If I can offer this evidence for whatever it's worth. I have recently killed my first deer ever (don't laugh:-D) so by no means am I an expert in this field or subject. I have been shooting for 25 years though and understand ballistics pretty well I think. I shot both my deer with a Speer 150 gr SP over 52 gr IMR 4350 out of my M91 Mosin. I know it is not a cast, but it is all I have right now. My observation on shot number one was I thought I had a magic bullet. The deer dropped like he was hit by lightning! Through and through. Destroyed the heart. Instant incapacitation! Second deer shot behind the shoulder as well and he took off LIKE lightning! I thought it was a miss. I found him about 100 yds away in a pile. Shot went where I aimed. Missed the heart totally! Busted both lungs and clipped the top of the stomach off. But he still ran like the wind until he succumbed. Both shots went through like a hot needle. So no energy dump inside the animal, but massive tissue damage on both accounts. I did not recover either bullet, but both went in big and came out big. So expansion was instantaneous with soft tissue contact. It opened my eyes in regard to shot placement and bullet performance! Just a slight angle difference was all it took for a instant stop and a runoff!

[RugerFan]

Boys, it is pretty darn useless to try and do an autopsy on a deer that got away. There is not much to be learned from the event. There are so many reasons that deer walked off that it is sorta premature to start cussing the bullet right off the bat.

I agree. You just don't know for sure unless you can un-zip em and look inside. If by chance only one lung was hit, the deer could potentially live a long happy life.

[Uncle R.]

44man

That's the problem with the "behind the shoulder" shot, sometimes it works and many times it doesn't.
Larry Gibson

I think Larry has it right. A shot through the ribs, just behind the shoulder, will usually kill quickly and ruin no meat at all - IF you're using a high velocity quick-expanding J-word bullet. In fact, it's my favorite aiming point when I'm hunting with a .270 or something similar.
With a penetration weapon like an arrow or any boolit/bullet below maybe 2500 fps that hit is much less sure. For those I prefer a hit through or just above the heart, even if you lose some shoulder meat.
My sympathy to you, 44 Man. I've lost a few as well - some hit in the way you describe. Just a little too high, or a little too far behind that shoulder, and they can be gone. The heck of it is that it doesn't always happen - maybe one in ten or even fewer.
I don't think you need to change your alloy or your load - I believe they'll work fine if you aim for the shoulder. Best of luck to you in your future hunts.
Uncle R.

[44man]

I am so used to archery hunting with about 230 or more deer that HAVE to be shot behind the shoulder that it is automatic to aim there. Funny thing is that the .44, .45 and .475 will kill them fast there but the 45-70 doesn't. I shot at this deer broadside and I know I got both lungs. I seen the hit at the midpoint of the chest angling down to the offside from the heighth I was in the stand. Last years loss was hit in the same place. The only difference is the velocity the boolit hits with. I have no idea! :confused:

[GLynn41]

maybe veral is right too much of a good thing-- I use .41 cast lwngc with a.33 meplat-- they shoot well - so far no meat for the wigwam-- anyway sometimes( like now) I doubt them &start thinking in terms of J words--most all normal pistols only have so much much velocity and power-- and we have to use it as best as can-- but sometimes I wonder-- I do not think .41's 429, 454 etc are under powered for deer just different and some what limited as compared as say to my 22" .358 Win--My first hnadgun deer kill was a 220 K in a 6.5' Bhawk -- the velocity was only about 1200 maybe-- and it put thumb sized hole in the heart - a little run and we were done--not over whelming but a on shot kill-- funny how things work-- but one is for sure we all hate to hurt and lose an animal-- as it should be

[shooting on a shoestring]

Two lost deer out of how many? I'm doubting 2 deer establish a trend. In my line of work data points below 10 have no statistical meaning. Or in other terms, if I get 2 groups to go moa, I can't claim its a moa shooting gun until I see it say 10 times. No matter which side of where to shoot, what boolit, how fast etc...can be justly decided on the basis of a couple of data points.

I also think this is the very issue that plagues the self defense practioners. Living things don't always respond predictably when they are shot. Some go down like the movies, some just go and go and go. There's not been any scientific, controlled studies covering all the major variables in using a meplat to propel the living into the everafter.

[MakeMineA10mm]

44man

That's the problem with the "behind the shoulder" shot, sometimes it works and many times it doesn't. Look at the anatomy of a deer and you'll see behind the shoulder on a deer that is broadside or angling toward you means just a bullet hole through the two lobes of the lungs. Deadly yes but the deer can go a long ways before it dies. I gave up on that shot years ago for the very reason you've just encountered. The sure shot I've used since is to visualise a soccer ball laying low up agains the breastbone directly between the legs. This is the heart/lung area where all the major arteries and vessals run into and out of the heart. Put your bullet into that soccer ball regardless of the angle and the deer will go down in short order. Yes you will damage a little more meat but better that than no meat at all, eh?

Larry Gibson

Agree with Larry 1000%! In addition to being a better killer, this shot, with most typical angles that occur when still hunting, also usually takes out one or both front shoulders, which can limit mobility, giving a shorter/easier tracking job.

With the heavy bullets your using in that 45-70, they should easily go through the shoulder, still hit the vitals, and most likely go through the other shoulder, before exiting! :) Also, if you MUST use hard bullets for accuracy's sake, putting them through the shoulder joint gives you your best chance for bullet upset by providing that hard resistence.

[Bret4207]

You hard core deer hunters have it all over me as far as performance and results, All I can say is I've found that a shoulder shot, one that breaks the shoulders, works for more marginal calibers, like a 45 BP roundball out of a ML, or a 38-40 or maybe a 22 Hi Power Savage. They can't move with broken shoulders. I know for a fact a regular 357 Mag 158SP will exit even a large deer's shoulder on occasion 'cuz I've done it several times, so heavier load should too. I'm not much a of a lung shot fan.

As to Verals theory on too much of a good thing- if it is true the first thing that comes to mind is the shock, I think Veral calls it hydrostatic shock, overwhelming the nervous system and causing the animals to keep going using that same shock as an aide rather than a detriment. All of this is wild conjecture because common sense tells me a bigger, faster boolit in the same spot as a lighter slower boolit should result in a quicker kill. Maybe this was just one of those abnormalities that happens on occasion and has nothing to do with the boolit/caliber combination.

[Bass Ackward]

Well, I have often stated that too much damage can stop bleeding. I have seen it many times. But it doesn't matter how that damage is done. Too much shock and the cells go through a self cauterization and bleeding stop initially. Doesn't matter if this is a hard, wide meplat slow or a spitzer running wild blowing a 6" hole. If you missed any vitals, deer could go a long way. Just as Veral wrote up. Remember, this wasn't Veral's "theory" it was a surgeon's that explained to him why the clotting of the cells occurs.

For us, anything over about 1 1/2" is counter productive for eastern deer. If it misses vitals, it stimulates flight hormones and can stop bleeding. With anything from handgun velocities to rifle extremes, the best meplat sizes we have found are .215 to .300. with low velocity getting the wide and rifles the small. Everything get 60% meplats up to 45 caliber and 45s get 50% for rifles and or what ever percentage doesn't go over that limit for that is needed for bullet balance in handguns.

Now I am not saying that these are the only sizes that will work. And I am not saying these limits are "the best". These are softer lead sizes as none of us shoots something that won't expand some, but holes won't be over 2" no matter what and 1 to 1 1/2 inches are the desired standard. (so far). But confined to these meplat sizes, we have never lost a deer by anyone in the family from any caliber. Bleeding begins immediately and can be tracked on the fourth of July, if necessary. That number is a very LARGE number of deer too. And well over 90% of shots are chest hits. And, we butcher everything.

It would seem to me, no matter what caliber or meplat size or bullet hardness you are using, if your combo produces more than a 2" hole in what ever size game you are after, then eventually you are going to have a problem. You have to match the bullet weight to the game you need to penetrate, the launching system to provide you with the velocity needed to have it arrive at the distance you want to reach, the bullet hardness to ensure penetration from your desired shot angle and then put a meplat on it to cut a 1 to 1 1/2" hole once you figure that all out. Then you will be successful with what ever you hunt.

[44man]

Yes Bass, blown up, ragged tissue seals the edges real fast. I see it here every year with the guys using 7mm and .300 mags on close range deer. They constantly lose deer. I found one on my hunting property early this season with the whole stomach blown out. She made it about 1000 yd's from where she was shot and there was no blood trail leading to her. The worst was the 11 point the neighbor shot through both hams. It quit bleeding in 100 yd's and went 1/2 mile. I helped him find it, the hole was big enough to stick your head into.
Clean cuts from a flat nose or an arrow rarely stop bleeding, like when you cut yourself shaving.
This 45-70 is baffling because it is the fastest shooting gun I use. Like I said, none of my other revolvers act like this. I switched to a Hornady hollow point and solved it for this season. I will work on boolits before next season. I am going to start making them softer to see where the accuracy goes bad first.

[44man]

Picture of the two old guys

[robertbank]

Mammals including man die from gun shot wounds either by blood loss or irreversable damage to the nervous system. Break a shoulder and the animal won't run far but likely won't die quickly either unless you do damge to the blood flow or nervous system. #1 reason why Grizzlies are a problem. Their darn hearts beat about 1.5 times a minute when they are upset. Bleeding out is not much an option when you hit them from 10 yards.

I shot a deer a few years back and hit him high through the spine. Paralyzed his back legs and he didn't run anywhere. Finished him off mercifullly with a .357 in his head.

If you are going for a body shot then you simply have to damage the blood system causing the animal to die from blood loss or lack of blood to the brain (heart shot). I think that is where proponents of large meplats, and I am one, base their arguments on. Cut as many blood vessels as you can or hit the nervous system.

Take Care

Bob

[MT Gianni]

Agree with Larry 1000%! In addition to being a better killer, this shot, with most typical angles that occur when still hunting, also usually takes out one or both front shoulders, which can limit mobility, giving a shorter/easier tracking job.

With the heavy bullets your using in that 45-70, they should easily go through the shoulder, still hit the vitals, and most likely go through the other shoulder, before exiting! :) Also, if you MUST use hard bullets for accuracy's sake, putting them through the shoulder joint gives you your best chance for bullet upset by providing that hard resistence.

I try to break the far shoulder giving what should be a path through the lungs from almost any angle. Gianni

[jeff223]

44man
im sure you didnt end up with a double lung shot on the deer you lost.from what i read of your story im sure you had a gut shot and not a double lung hit.you may have nicked the liver too

maybe you misjudged the angle of the deer when you shot?maybe you missed your mark?maybe you had a total boolit blowup for some reason and the boolit didnt even penatrate into the lungs?who knows?

did you have a double lung hit?there's no way in hell.
you cant blame boolit speed and hardness for the loss of a game animal:veryconfu

we are just humans and we do make mistakes

im sorry you lost the deer,better luck next time:wink:

[S.R.Custom]

...I've previously stated several times my affinity for expanding boolits. ... you want to penetrate the animal, but not too much more (don't waste your energy).

Indeed, if the exiting bullet blows "a great big hole in the ground," very little energy was transferred from the bullet to the target. In my years of hunting, the only deer I've lost was one I shot through the lungs with a Keith bullet from the .44. I did eventually find the deer... sort of. Took me so long to find it, someone else had time to steal it; you could see where it was drug through the brush out to the road. (One of the many reasons I finally left Ohio.)

But I digress. Ever since that incident, I've used jacketed expanding bullets exclusively for hunting, and I've given up the lung shot. If I'm hunting with a handgun, the Hornady 240 gr XTP gets the nod. It opens wide and makes a really big wound channel through the animal; a quartering shoulder shot turns the whole lung cavity to pudding. And I've always been able to retrieve the bullet on the far side of the animal, just under the skin. Perfect. On the other hand, the best I've seen a Keith bullet do is a 1.5" wound channel through the animal, with a clean exit hole on the other side. A nice hole, but not a lot of energy transmitted to the animal. Terminal, yes, but not so quick enough as to avoid a chase through the countryside.

Cast bullets are fine for amusement and target work, but not the best choice for hunting.

[Bret4207]

44mans post reminded me of some avulsions I've seen, arms ripped off, fingers torn off, things like that. Not a lot of bleeding, or not as much as you'd expect. That could be a factor. The arteries and veins allegedly withdraw into flesh and the damage causes the walls to collapse and help seal the mound. Interesting, could have something to so with it I suppose.

[44man]

Not so, I seen the impact of the boolit. Just below center, just behind the shoulder. How could she cough up lung tissue and foam from a gut shot? I know what I am doing with over 360 deer kills. The boolit made a huge hole in the ground after the pass through. My boolits do NOT come apart.
I have had a few gut shot deer with the bow when they moved. I let them go and in the morning, the crows will find them for me. I kept searching for this one and not a single crow or trail led me to a deer.
You have to read my posts better! :coffee:

[robertbank]

Bret4207 in keeping with your post I sat on a jury where a guy had his arm shot off by a shotgun. Doctor testified that the body does indeed attempt to save itself and will close off leaking blood vessels. Obviously if you hit enough of them or the artery is to big the body will fail in it's attempts. His testimony was the BG would not have bled to death. The arm was off at the elbow and hanging from a tendon. Was a home invasion. Learned a bunch about blood splatter and stuff. Pictures were rather gruesome! BG staggered as far as the back alley before collapsing and going into shock. Police found him lying there. BG's artificial limb certainly was going to slow down his future robbery attempts.:mrgreen:

Take Care

Bob

[shotstring]

After reading all the posts, the only thing that makes any sense to me is that the bullet didn't deform at all and didn't happen to hit major arteries or blood vessels. Minimal damage, minimal shock. Maybe bullet hardness, maybe something else. But imagine making the same shot, the same hit with an aluminum target arrow of 45 caliber with a fast enough bow for thru and thru penetration. Without a large broadhead severing some arterial real estate, you would probably be looking at pretty much the same thing - a lost animal.

[dubber123]

I am a bit baffled by this, and doubly so as I'm the one who sent the boolits to 44man in the first place. The only game animals I have gotten with hardcast wer 2 hogs. The first at 200 lbs. was shot with a WFN out of my .475 revolver at 1,350 fps., and even the guide who has seen hundreds shot with all manners of guns was vocally impressed. I hit only soft tissue, and the internal damage was MASSIVE. The lungs came out as pure mush, not even any large pieces. This was a VERY hard cast boolit, and I know it certainly didn't expand, yet the big flat did alot of damage. The second hog I shot was with a 50-70 Contender, with a similarly sized meplat boolit, but this time at a sedate 950 fps. The shots were behind the shoulder on both animals, but this time it took 3, versus the 1 with the .475. I was there when it was butchered, and the damage was considerably less. It's only 2 animals, but the extra velocity really showed. It makes more sense to me that a flat object travelling fast will shove more stuff out of the way than the same sized object travelling slow. Until I see differently, I will be shooting as fast as possible with my WFN's.

[44man]

It is indeed screwy! Like was said, I might have missed anything vital. But it goes to show that the will to live is great and deer are tough critters. I don't blame Dubber's boolit at all, just a goofy happening. It happens to all of us. I look back at all the deer I have shot with parts of arrows and healed over bullets in them and don't begin to explain how they lived.

[fourarmed]

I was marveling at this bulletproof deer until 44man mentioned that he was shooting from a tree stand. Shooting from above, what often happens is that you hit a little high and just get the far lung, or shoot at the aiming point you would use on the level, and just get the near lung. Hard to get them both from above.

This interests me, as I will be using a 45-70 with cast 457122 for the first time this year instead of the 130 gr. jacketed .270 rounds I have used for 25 years.

[dubber123]

This interests me, as I will be using a 45-70 with cast 457122 for the first time this year instead of the 130 gr. jacketed .270 rounds I have used for 25 years.[/QUOTE]

I'm starting to think smashing both front shoulders might be your best bet. Thats what I will be shooting for.

[waksupi]

I did have a converstation with Veral Smith a year or so about this, concerning the Bator Heavy (358009 clone). His recommendation was to keep the impact velocity up to 1400 fps with this bullet, for good wound channel. This effectively puts my loads well into that range, for any range I would shoot deer. The slowest I have hit a deer with a rifle, was with a Swede, starting out at about 1700 fps, at a range of about 60-70 yards. Velocity was probably somewhere between 15-1600 fps. at impact. Bullet went through lung and liver, and the buck went maybe 40 yards, the furthest I have ever had a deer go hit with a cast bullet. The lung had a hole about 5 inches around in it, and the liver had a four pointed star wound, about 4 inches across. So, high velocity may not be required, but it does have to have enough speed to get the "splash" effect we want, from the flat meplate.
Having also killed deer and antelope with a revolver, I have noticed the wound channel is smaller generally, although the killing effect was still good.

[jeff223]

Not so, I seen the impact of the boolit. Just below center, just behind the shoulder. How could she cough up lung tissue and foam from a gut shot? I know what I am doing with over 360 deer kills. The boolit made a huge hole in the ground after the pass through. My boolits do NOT come apart.
I have had a few gut shot deer with the bow when they moved. I let them go and in the morning, the crows will find them for me. I kept searching for this one and not a single crow or trail led me to a deer.
You have to read my posts better! :coffee:

im sorry 44man your story doesnt add up.if you would of put the boolit through both lungs the animal would of died while it stood in front of you but you stated it stood there for 20 minutes??this is very simple,you missed your mark and put a bad hit on the animal and are now putting blame on your 45-70 being to fast!!!HOG WASH is what i say

lets not post total BS about the loss of a game animal because there may be new commers to the hunting sport reading this.why not send them off in the right direction?you say you know what you are doing but i question that after reading your first post about this loss

like i stated above.im sorry you lost the deer and i hope you get the next one

[Johnch]

Last fall I shot a big doe just behind the shoulder with a Lee 310 44 bullet
I double lunged her but hit the very top of 1 lung and well up on the other , but just the back of that lung

She ran like crazy for the first 100 yds
From my tree stand I was able to watch her walk close to 1/2 mile acrost the feild and then fall stone dead

I was not able to find more than a few drops of blood untill I got within 50 yards of her
As I followed her tracks the whole way , just to see what I could see

When I opened her up the chest cavity was full

If there is a chance you were a touch high and only hit the top of 1 lung or just into the top inch or so of the second
What you say happened fits

But I wasn't there and my crystal ball is broke

John

[leftiye]

The way that hydrostatic shock thang works is to shut down (not desensitize) the nervous system when the nervous systen becomes "overcome". That means the animal "blacks out" (and is on the ground, and never wakes up). The original work was done in Germany in the 70s I think. Was done to explain the then new instantaneous Kill thing that was happening with the new high velocity cartridges.

Sounds like what Veral's looking at is more like " You just hit em hard enough to hurt like h@!!, and that got their adrenalin going, and they left the scene" Deer HAVE been known to do that. So you can see it is also necessary to do damage that is lethal and immediately lethal to stop this from happening. Heck, they go 100 yds at full tilt routinely with their hearts exploded by an 06.

[44man]

I did shoot from a stand but I am only 12 feet high. The deer was only 25 yd's. I could not ask for an easier shot. I DID see the impact on her but she did not jump like they normally do, she just ran which leads me to think there was no energy left in the deer from the boolit. I wanted a second shot but where she stopped, she was facing away from me in thick stuff, no way to hit her again even when she walked off. I saw her shake her head once and thought she was bleeding out. She walked with her head held low. A deer hit back in the liver will walk a straight line and not go up hill because it is very painful. This deer walked a twisted route and went up and down steep hills. That leaves out a liver hit plus I seen the boolit impact.
My thoughts are still that my boolit was too hard, not the size or shape of the boolit but the velocity with zero expansion because there is no resistance where I hit her. I just missed cutting any vital spot.
I have killed other deer with this revolver with hard cast and even though those deer were full of blood, I did not see the lung destruction in them I am used to. The exit and entry holes have been very small and could very well have sealed easy.
I think the solution is to either keep the boolits in the shoulder or soften them.
I have asked for logical opinions but get answers that I can't shoot and have no idea where I hit deer. Gut shot, one lung which is not possible where she was and where I hit her. I am NOT one of those that has to be 30 or 40 feet up a tree. 10 or 12 feet is high enough. If my tree is in a low spot that will put deer higher, I go as high as 16 feet but on the level, I stay low.

[44man]

With the arrow pieces I have pulled from deer that got both lungs and they were still healthy when I shot them with my revolvers, I have to wonder if there isn't magic involved. Nothing is sure but death and taxes.

[Blammer]

aim for bone next time.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive seen strange things. Ive seen deer with there heart vaporized that went over a 100 yards and have saw lung shot deer go that far too. Bottom line is im no doctor but a deer with a hole through both lungs into the cavitys should no longer be able to breath as the lungs are going to colapse. So under perfect conditions it could only go as far as it can hold its breath and that doesnt take bleading to death into account. What very possibly could have happened is that you saw just what you said but the bullet could have deflected on a rib and took a dive and only put a hole in one lung. Ive seen even cast bullets do some odd things inside of an animal. I aslo have no doubt in my mind if you were shoot down from a tree and hit a broadside animal in the lungs the exit hole would have been low enough to allow blood to come out and that makes me think even more that you had some bullet deflection. Also even at 12 feet in the air it can be difficult to hit the lungs in a spot low enough on the near side lung to insure a good hit on the far side. Also at that angle as you know your target isnt near as big as it is at ground level. Picture a deer from 12 feet in the air and you will see how precise of a shot it takes to actually put a bullet or arrow through both lungs. More times then not when im bow hunting and take a deer from a scafold its a one lung shot. Thankfully theres nothing better then a broadhead to make something blead and a deer hit like that doesnt live long at all. Same with liver shots. In my experience a arrow hit in the liver will kill faster then a rifle hit.

[44man]

I put a stick in the boolit hole in the ground and lined it up with the place my muzzle would be in the stand. If I measure from the ground where the hair was cut off, it was the right heighth for center of chest on the doe. CSI stuff but without a laser. None of your theories work. It was plain and simple bad luck. My friend and I worked on this together and searched the entire area too. I will go back and run a string from the muzzle to the hole and measure again. I will let you know.

[Lloyd Smale]

hope you find it if its as cold there as its been hear it will be frozzen solid! It was actually below zero this morning!!!!

[44man]

Jeff, I have posted pictures here of 6" lengths of arrows that I have almost slashed myself on when gutting deer. I am afraid to reach into the chest cavities anymore. Do you need to see?

[44man]

I have found a lot of bullets encased in white, hard material against the ribcages of deer shot in PA. Most were .22's. They scared me, I thought they were tumors. I am dead serious.

[Johnch]

Jeff, I have posted pictures here of 6" lengths of arrows that I have almost slashed myself on when gutting deer. I am afraid to reach into the chest cavities anymore. Do you need to see?

I also have found arrows , but for me it has always been the fletching end
You could slice your fingers up pretty good real easy on a broad head


My first doe this fall had what apeared to be a 45 cal 250 gr lead slug lodged against the shoulder blade
It apeared to be a perfictly healthy doe that was living with 1 lung

Just a scar

John

[Bass Ackward]

Picture of the two old guys

I know what the problem is, it's the hat. That thing would put anything to flight. I saw the picture two days ago and I am just getting back to the key board. :grin:

Lost 3 deer with a 45 and hard cast. Story much as yours. Shot and no sign of a hit or flinch at all and deer just looked around for a second and then trotted off. This was 375 LFN at better than 2100 fps. When I checked the shot, a cone of hair, blood and bone for 15 feet. Not a drop from that point on though as deer kind of bounded leisurely uphill till I lost track.

I was successfully soft for a lot of years and then read Veral's book about hard cast and wide meplat and thought I'd try it. No thanks, went soft and never had another problem with any caliber or shot angle. Now if I was going after pig or something tough and I didn't have enough bullet weight to penetrate, I 'd harden if I couldn't get a bigger gun. But you know I ALWAYS have a bigger gun. Or .... I'll make it.

Even with the 44 bore, I get much better hemorrhage from handgun velocities than rifle hits. Every once in awhile the rifle will drop'em right there, but over all handgun velocities in 44 bleed better and give quicker kills. From my experience. Another way to say it is you can have too much gun.

[Lloyd Smale]

I had to go back to the picture and check the hat out. It aint bad ive used worse but i think i may have found your problem. That barrel is so dammed long that it might have drug in the dirt out of a 12 foot scaffold!!! :)

[44man]

This is all I can say to you guys---[smilie=w: :mrgreen: