1911 spring replacement schedule

[prs]

From what I can tell by reading what little the search engine found me, I realize its not just about time and not just about rounds cycled, but somewhat a combination? I was surprised by a response on another site; 1911fourm, that the advice was to change out the springs every few thousand rounds? I am way overdue going by that. One of my 1911's is about two years-old or so and the other about a year. Both have over 5,000 rounds and the elder may have more than 10,000. They are working OK, but I just ordered Wolff recoil, firing pin, and sear spring kits for both. I also ordered 10% extra power springs for my mags. The magazine springs may be most "tired" since I load and empty them about 3 times a week, except for the two that stay charged. Now, do I do this on a PM basis, or just stock the new parts until problems develop? I lean toward the latter strategy?

prs

[Char-Gar]

Most folks are way to anal when it comes to springs. There are good springs and bad springs, when a spring is bad, change it out with a good one.

I loaded a 1911 magazine and lost it for 25 years. When I found it, I took it to the range and fired the still loaded magazine. It functioned just as it did 25 years prior. It is still in service with no spring change. I am not about to change it out because some yahoo on the internet says I should.

[btroj]

I figure I will replace my springs when they tell me they need it?

I have close to 10 K on the recoil springy and don't have plans to replace it anytime soon. Magazine springs are Wolff extra power and may never be replaced in my lifetime.

[prs]

Good, I will salt them away until needed. Char-gar, as long as a good spring is stationary; whether relaxed or under load, it should not deform significantly. It is when the metal is moved or worked that it may get tired. Hey! Sort of like us, no?

prs

[zomby woof]

Springs are cheap. Replace them, you'll feel better.

[bhn22]

A lot depends on what the springs are made of. Plain old music wire can be terribly inconsistent from lot to lot, and as the old saying goes, a building is only as good as it's foundation. I read the 1911 thread, and the underlying message was that if you need consistent performance, spring replacement is preventative maintenance. If you're a competition shooter, or rely on your 1911 for self defense or duty use, change 'em out regularly. As said before, springs are cheap. If you just plink, play, and hammer paper targets, your needs are less than those outlined above. Run them until they fail, then replace them, it's cheaper that way. If a failure spells disaster for you, do your PM and replace your springs on a regular basis. I have had competition guns fail in the midst of a run, and it really ruins your day, believe me. The more serious you are about performance, the more you need to maintain your equipment, it's not just a "Walter Mitty" issue.

[bobthenailer]

From what i have gathered over the years ! when a recoil spring is 2 coils shorter in length than a new one of the same brand its time to replace the spring . someone makes a recoil spring tester , i belive there avaliable from Dillon.

[pdawg_shooter]

I have a Colt Mk4 Series 70 I bought in 72. Maybe that was just a good year for springs. I have never replaced one. At the same time I bought 6 military surplus Mags. Only time they are not loaded is when I empty them shooting. I reload them before putting them away. I have never changed a spring in any of them.

[MtGun44]

LOL! Folks really get wrapped around the axle on this. Not much of a need
for any replacement, ever - if you really worry, then replace the main recoil
spring, but the others are pretty much lifetime springs.

Sear spring is part of the 3 finger spring, never saw one that needed
replacement.

Bill

[Dale53]

contrary to some advice here, the recoil springs on a 1911 do get weaker with use. I cracked a slide on a 1911 learning that. My 16 lb original spring had "sagged" to 12 lbs over time and use. The proper way to do it is to replace the spring when it no longer makes weight. Go to the plumbing supply where you do business (or Lowes or HOme Depot) and buy a pvc pipe coupling of the appropriate size. Put the coupling on a simple kitchen spring scale with your (unloaded) 1911. Put the muzzle end of the slide on the coupling and push. Your barrel should be inside the coupling and the sides of the coupling will rest on the bushing/slide. Just before the slide "locks up" in full retraction, read the scale.

When the spring is new it should read the poundage furnished with it. If it drops in weight more than a pound or so, replace it.

My choice for full loads is an 18 lb spring (when it sags to 16 lbs, I replace it). That way I am always assured of sufficient recoil spring strength to avoid battering of the slide. I do NOT recommend heavier than 18 lb spring (too heavy and it just pounds the slide in the other direction).

This method is simple, sure fire, and eliminates guess work. Plus, it costs little.

FWIW
Dale53

[MtGun44]

Dale, you and I almost always agree on 1911s, but I have to part ways on this one a bit.

More battering of the barrel bottom lugs comes from too strong springs, although 18 lb is a minor misdemeanor class
offense, not like the near felony class 24 lb springs. I have run >10-15K on the same recoil spring many times and
occasionally replaced it 'for the heck of it'. Never had a frame crack, and have four guns that are at or well past 50K each,
some near to 100K, but I have lost an accurate count so just call them 'way north of 50K'. My .38 Supers run 12 lb springs,
and other 1911s run 16 lb springs. Current Kimber early model has the original spring, and is about 40-50K, not certain
exactly how much but 9 yrs of IPSC, but I wasn't practicing as much so probably only 5-6K per year, best as I can
recollect.

Smaller springs never need replacing, in my opinion.

Bill

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I am a member of the law enforcement community, many here locally carry the 1911 on duty including me, we as working peace officers defer to the wisdom of our beloved, recently departed 1911 guru who dedicated his life to the 1911 and taught 1911 classes at our instructor conferences. From this wise man comes his advise of changing the recoil spring every 3,000 rounds or 2 years, using Wolfe springs and avoiding +P ammo. This applies to the 5" and Commander models. The 5" models should use 18.5 lb springs and the Commander should use 22 lb springs.

The micro 1911's should have their springs changed every 200 rounds.

[Fire_Medic]

Here's a good resource on keeping your 1911 running good:

http://www.10-8performance.com/pages/Articles.html

[Char-Gar]

I am a member of the law enforcement community, many here locally carry the 1911 on duty including me, we as working peace officers defer to the wisdom of our beloved, recently departed 1911 guru who dedicated his life to the 1911 and taught 1911 classes at our instructor conferences. From this wise man comes his advise of changing the recoil spring every 3,000 rounds or 2 years, using Wolfe springs and avoiding +P ammo. This applies to the 5" and Commander models. The 5" models should use 18.5 lb springs and the Commander should use 22 lb springs.

The micro 1911's should have their springs changed every 200 rounds.

It has been my experience in life that most gurus parrot what other gurus have said, thus perpetuating the myths that abound in the gun culture. Trace most myths back far enough and you will find somebody who has a financial interest in selling springs or writing articles for pay by the column inch.

I am not a guru, do not play one on TV nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Express, but I am 50 years deep into 1911 pistols with well over 1/4 million rounds through these gizmos and my experience squares with Mtgun44 on this issue.

[Fire_Medic]

I think it's important to remember when we try to compare maintenance schedules on these pistols that ammunition today is much stronger than what it use to be. A lot of LE trains with ammo that mimics their duty ammo, and thus you will see stricter replacement schedules from these camps, and the average guy just adopts these without thinking of why. For the average guy, especially someone shooting softer loads through their gun, you can get away with less frequent parts changes because you're not subjecting your pistol to the same abuse.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Char-Gar, You are free to call me some guy that mimics what others say about the 1911, but this man of which I speak, who we just attended the funeral services of did not mimic anyone. He actually worked full time in companies that manufactured 1911's for over 30 years. The company that currently probably sells more 1911's than anyone else offered him a huge pay increase to come and work for them (they needed him) however he turned it down to stay close to his family. He was working full time and a firearms manufacturing plant as the shop foreman of the 1911 line of that company.

Do you believe it is reasonable that those of us that are firearms instructors on police departments would invite somebody to come and teach us at our once a year statewide firearms instructors conference if that person was only going to parrot what others have already said? When we are using our funds to invite the guest? Pay for his room and board? Do you believe we would have all the firearms instructors from around the state come and listen to this man if we did not trust what he was going to say to people who were going to take that info back to the officers within their respective agencies? We do not invite anyone as speakers, lecturers or teachers unless they have already earned respect within the firearms industry.

This man was the go to guy way back when civilian IPSC was all the crazy in the early 80's, and he built race guns and duty 1911s even back then that I have know have been discharged in the line of duty - and his guns are being carried today by working peace officers here.

As far as a financial motive to his teachings theory, he lived by very humble means. I ran into him at an airshow and observed that he actually repaired his cowboy boot with duct tape, while raising his daughter.

At his funeral services current and retired peace officers, military men, firearms instructor and men who have to carry and use the pistol in their respective lines of work got up and gave their testimonies, all using his 1911's. And there were many more like me who sat on that side of the sanctuary together in respect for his man's pistolsmithing skills, his dedication to the 1911.

I have known this man for over 30 years, shot with him, and watched him care for others guns. He was brutally honest about the inadequacies of all products in the firearms field.

I remember him telling his stories of working as an understudy for a nationally known custom 1911 smith who I don't even know is alive today. As far as selling articles by the column inch, he was published, but others wrote about him and his guns, I do not know of a single article he wrote.

[Char-Gar]

Silver.... I mean no disrespect to your friend. I am certain he was a fine fellow. You obviously give allot of credence to what he says.

I have lived long enough (71 years) and have lots of experience with lots of things in life. When my experience, education and knowledge teaches me one thing and an expert teaches something contradictory, I have enough confidence in my ability to separate the wheat from the chaff to go with my experience. My analytical and critical thinking skills are pretty well developed, so I trust them.

As always, read my disclaimer at the bottom of this and every post. Everything I post on this board comes from my own experience and not something I heard from somebody else. If that squares with somebody else's opinion, that is fine. If it doesn't, well that is fine also.

I do change out recoil springs from time to time. I don't count rounds, months or years, just do it when I think I have pushed a spring long enough. That is much longer than the experts recommend. If changing out good springs with newer good springs makes a fellow sleep better at night then it is worth the price. Confidence in your weapon, your skill with it and your ability to think under pressure are all very valuable things to have. Whatever it takes to get you there is what a person needs to do.

The 1911 pistols was designed with a fair number of moving parts that move in a proper sequence. It was designed for a 16 lb. recoil spring. Move away from this number (16) more than a pound or two either way and you are courting problems sooner or later.

[btroj]

I think most of the spring change schedules were produced by spring manufacturing or selling companies.

Can anyone say "marketing"?

[35remington]

One thing we pretty much know for sure.....an old spring probably won't lead to frame or slide cracking.

Mil Spec spring rates for the 1911 are........14.5 lbs.

Given that the 1911 slide tops out at a bit less than 17 mph with 230 ball at 830 fps before the spring starts to slow the slide, and actual impact with the frame is at a lower speed than that when the spring takes effect, slide damage and frame damage from "worn" springs is pretty obviously oversold.

The slide just don't hit the frame all that hard.

If your spring starts out at 16 or 18 lbs, with 16 and 18 being the most common spring rates, you probably could just about shoot until doomsday or whatever your conscience dares to do without any increased risk of gun damage. Yeah, even with reasonable use of Plus P.

Obviously, if the gun is failing to return to battery, or if ejection pattern or distance takes a noticeably different path than it did before, the spring is possibly suspect. But I know for a fact that flaunting the "recommended" 3,000 round spring change interval won't doom you to a jammomatic because I've done it too many times for spring change intervals to be graven in stone. At 3,000 rounds, or even double or triple that, the gun won't turn into a pumpkin.

Heck, I didn't even know the spring in my dad's 1944 manufactured Colt was even supposed to be changed, and I shot the hell out of it. That gun is undamaged, and never an issue with the spring causing the gun to malfunction when it was used. He simply used the spring the gun was issued with and never even thought about changing it. I only eventually changed it because someone insisted I should, and it made no difference in how it worked.

Let me invite those who insist on 3,000 round spring change intervals to shoot the gun two or three times that, or whatever you dare to do, without changing the springs. The gun won't disintegrate if it's a good spring to begin with. It won't turn into a jammomatic.

Just try it. You won't hurt the gun, and you just might learn something.

For the sensitive, craptacular shorty 3 and 3.5 inch 1911's I make no such guarantees. Those things are so compromised in running properly that the slightest change from a reliable condition may make them misfeed, and such voodoo is needed to make them run properly that you're well advised to throw eye of newt and wing of bat in along with any superstitious and anal retentive practices you can dream up to keep those chokesters running.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Char-Gar, I must admit I was taken aback that you would dismiss my comments that I pass along from a guy who gained knowledge from his lifetime pursuit. I do not declare myself particularly knowledgeable in the 1911 however he was.

I carry the 1911 every day when working and after work, I live in a fairly populated region so the slab sides doesn't offend the lefties like the bulge of a revolver under the coat does, when spending my day at the range I defer to the revolver particularly the single action. I am not particularly enamored with the 1911, it is just in my opinion right now that the best choice of a pistol to carry in case I have an unintentional encounter with a person that is so bad that firearms are necessary.

My 1911 did develop a hiccup here a while back, the second to the last round failed to feed. I called up Wilson Combat, they said it was spring replacement time, asked me how many magazines I carry and sent me for free new magazine springs and a recoil spring. I switched them out and my 1911 has been running reliably again without a hitch.

I called Colt years ago and they said to switch the recoil spring every 10,000 rounds, but when I shoot the Colt factory spring vs. the Wolff or Wilson springs the difference is quite apparent, i prefer the non factory spring.

Another thing that puzzles me is why the recoil spring is called what it is, I think it should be called the slide return spring.

An older gentleman working for Remington told me that he worked for Browning years ago, one of John Moses Browning's grandkids said Grandpa always used to say to change the recoil spring on the 1911. He said people at the Browning plant wrote down what ever followed the grandkids phrase Grandpa always said.

[Char-Gar]

Silver...I traded into my first 1911 (Remington-Rand 1911A1) in 1961 or so. I had about $40.00 in to the weapon. It came with one box of USGI ammo and after that was gone I began to reload the cases. It was the only center-fire handgun I owned or could afford at the time. I used it for everything, even those things which experts said it was not suited. If traveled with me all over Texas, in a vehicle, on horseback and on foot. I found it to be a very versatile and useful firearm, with capabilities far beyond what the experts of the day suggested.

As a result, I became a fan of the 1911 and have owned dozens over the years. I got into Bulleye match shooting and ran hundreds of thousands of rounds through a Bob Chow custom match gun and a Colt National Match. I found the Colt to also be a good field pistol.

I am left handed and this was before Armand Swenson came up with the first ambi-safety. I carried the pistol with a loaded round in the chamber and the hammer down. I became very adroit in cocking the hammer with my off hand. When the ambi-safeties became popular, I tried a couple, but never could get used to them, so I went back to my old ways.

When ever I am in the field, I most likely will have some kind of 1911 "on or about my person". However, for serious social purposes I have gone to the Glock 19 for concealed carry and the Glock 17 at the house, along with an assortments of rifles and shotguns mind you. I lived just three miles from the Rio Grande River and hip and thigh with the cartels and local drug thugs. If ever I need a handgun, I will need it pretty da() bad and 8 rounds might not be enough. As much as I hate to admit it, a Glock makes more sense for me now. We have some pretty serious stuff going on down here these days.

It is OK to be put off by my abrupt and outspoken manner. My wife reminds me of my short comings on a daily basis, so rest assured that base is well covered.

I tend to take experts and gurus with a grain of salt, because I have been introduced as such and paid for opinions as such on several non-gun related subjects. I am very aware of just how much I don't know vs. how much I do know. Being an expert is a long way from being omniscient,. If a fellow has a good grasp on reality, being considered an expert, makes one doubt just how much experts really know.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Char-Gar, I grew up with horses in a family of riflemen, Jack O'Conner was the man most often quoted in the house and by my father's circle of WW2 vet buddies. I was an outcast as a handgunner, handguns just made a lot of sense to me, and my vision prevented me from ever really excelling in rifle shooting. The consideration of a semi auto was not realistic. My grandfather's Mauser was around but the sights were poor and it threw brass all over the place. I got into law enforcement when most everybody carried revolvers, it made perfect sense to me. A buddy of mine accidentally shot and killed another buddy of mine with a 1911 during an arrest. Another guy accidentally shot himself and his partner with a 38 Super 1911 in a patrol car, the injuries were far from life threatening. Nobody had any training back then. They gave you a badge and gun and the job meant you put your life on the line. There were lots of shootings, the media never harped about them like they do now, the lawyers didn't crow about stuff like they do now. The ammo used back then made me not trust light fast boolits, it always seemed to fail in shootings. In one case we were glad when one of our own was disarmed and had his own service revolver turned on him. He took a belly full of .357's with light fast ammo, took the offender down, handcuffed him, spent a relatively short time in the hospital and returned to work.

So the 1911 was officially the only gun prohibited to be carried when I hired on in the early 80's where I work now. This 1911 guru who recently departed was involved in the 1911 and none of it affected me. I chose the revolver. Times changed and there was training on the 1911 system, and there was this para-dime shift to bottom feeders. I was the last to change. We got a bunch of Glocks when I was working the range, half of them jammed. All the time. With all different kinds of ammo. Glock told me no one else's Glock's jammed except for ours. Funny, sitting at a big round table full of firearms instructors at a conference they other instructors said their Glock's jammed, they called Glock and they too were told by Glock no one else has ever complained Glock's jammed. Glock has re designed their guns a lot since then.

So I carry a 1911, but I do say that these 1911's I have are very reliable. And I'd never carry a .357 with light fast hollow points.

[TenTea]

I'm getting to be an old guy and I like old guns.
When I acquire a *new to me* piece, I replace the springs.
Wolff's service packs in the factory recommended 1911 spring weights seem good to me and I can sleep at night. :wink:

Thanks to the gentlemen in this thread for sharing their experience.

[DX250]

I have never been that worried about spring replacement for range guns as they just do not fail overnight but for my social and competition guns see new springs every 5000 rnds t to make me feel good.

[Forrest r]

This has always been a topic of debate for decades. Myself I use a 16.5# progressive wolff spring, there cheap enough & get changed every year unless I see excessive case ejection. I only shoot 10,000 to 15,000 rounds a year in my 1911 & it's either with powder puff target loads (a 10# spring lasts years) or p+ 200gr hp's for slamming bowling pins or steel.

I only get concerned about the recoil spring when the 1911 starts throwing empties 6'+ when it only dropped them 3' when the spring was new. The other thing that concerns me is the bbl's unlocking allot quicker when it's throwing the brass 6'+ compared to 3' when the spring was new.

Wolff spring kit 42416 16.5# variable power
brownell's 969-950-500 10# spring

That's all I've used for years in 4 different 1911's in 45acp, 9mm & 38 super.

92242

To each their own.

[mrvmax]

I only had a few thousand through my STI Trojan and it started having a lot of feed issues. I changed out the spring to a Wolff and it works great.

[35remington]

"The other thing that concerns me is the bbl's unlocking allot quicker when it's throwing the brass 6'+ compared to 3' when the spring was new."

Forrest, you still don't know a thing about how a pistol operates. That much hasn't changed since our discussion.

Spring rate or strength doesn't have the slightest thing to do with when the pistol unlocks.

[Forrest r]

Forrest, you still don't know a thing about how a pistol operates. That much hasn't changed since our discussion.

Spring rate or strength doesn't have the slightest thing to do with when the pistol unlocks.

AHHH, the 1911 amateur speaks again. How's the 8th grade math going buddy?

Here we go again, I'll put different links from experts in a post supporting my position & you can say you can't see it or their wrong because it goes against what you say etc.

I'm not going to waste my time.

You want to say a 18# spring will unlock a 1911 the same as the 6# recoil spring with a 155gr bullet & a 3gr charge of bullseye, great.

If the spring strength doesn't have the slightest thing to do with when the pistol unlocks then why will:

The 6# spring function & cycle the 1911 with that load & the 18# spring will not let the 1911 unlock or cycle the same 1911?

The only difference is the spring strength!!!!

Me thinks you need to work on more than your 8th grade math.

[35remington]

No, Forrest, you're talking about cycling the gun and whether the load has enough power in relation to the strength of the spring to reach ejection. I'm talking about when the gun unlocks. It unlocks when the bullet leaves the barrel and the spring has no influence on that. The gun does not come out of battery or unlock until the bullet leaves, even if no spring at all is present. The gun may be safely fired with no spring at all.

Quoting you:

".....18# spring will not let the 1911 unlock or cycle....." Unlocking and cycling are two entirely different events. Try to know the difference between the two.

If you mean cycling, don't say "unlocking." They are entirely different things. Whether the slide reaches full travel and ejects the case has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with when the gun unlocks. They are mechanically different events, and to confuse the two means an understanding of how the pistol works is not present.

To repeat, for emphasis.....the strength of the spring has absolutely no influence on when the gun unlocks. Unlocking is a mechanical event governed by the exit of the bullet from the barrel.

[btroj]

http://www.m1911.org/locking.htm

Looking at this it seems the barrel does NOT unlock until the bullet is put of the barrel. Period. Spring strength has nothing to do with how fast the bullet leaves the barrel.

A stronger spring DOES slow the slide down AFTER the bullet has left the barrel. This can change the ejection pattern of the pistol

I would say that since this is a reprint from an article by Kuhnausen it is pretty dang reliable info.

Forrest, he may use 8th grade math but the man knows his 1911.

[35remington]

Here's a famous x ray picture of a 1911 caught in its firing cycle. The bullet is a fraction of an inch from being out of the barrel, and it can be seen from the lugs that the barrel is in full engagement......it is locked in battery. It has no choice.

http://s536.photobucket.com/user/ewgewgewg/media/lockupx-ray.jpg.html

For those that don't understand how a locked breech pistol works, read the following:

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?1950-Recoil-Function&highlight=movement+slide+relation+bullet

Finally, look at post #69 that shows the bullet base just slightly beyond the muzzle and the movement of the slide.

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?102434-Damage-due-to-incorrect-recoil-spring-strength/page7

The barrel is still in battery at this point, because the the slide has not moved far enough rearward to pull the barrel out of battery. Since the bullet just left and the pressure is rapidly diminishing to zero after this point, it is free to unlock when the slide moves rearward far enough for the link to pull the barrel out of battery.

All this has absolutely zero to do with whether a light load will cycle with an 18# spring or not. Because it's about unlocking, not cycling.

[btroj]

In the x-Ray image it sure looks to me like the barrel lugs are pushed forward, not to the rear. Tells me the barrel isn't moving rearward yet so it isn't even close to beginning to unlock.

[35remington]

Finally, look at post #105 in the following link. It's obvious the barrel is in full engagement as the bullet leaves the muzzle and is locked to the slide. The only thing that's changed is the slide has moved a small distance rearward as the bullet exits as evidenced by the witness marks on the graph paper. The barrel/slide relationship is unchanged.

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?102434-Damage-due-to-incorrect-recoil-spring-strength/page11

[35remington]

No, it isn't unlocking, but in the cleared X ray image you can see the link has moved from one side of vertical to the other, evidencing the slide movement. The pictures in post 33 above confirm the slide movement as the bullet leaves. Such slide movement is not yet unlocking the pistol.

As long as the barrel is pressurized, it can't unlock. The gun is timed so it unlocks only after the bullet has left, and the gun cannot fire with a pull of the trigger when it is out of battery or when it is unsafe for it to do so.

[btroj]

I suppose I should sign up over there so I can see photos.....

[35remington]

Whoopsie. Forgot others aren't members. The original guy didn't post the link to where he got his.

I'll describe. It shows the bullet base barely past the muzzle, and the slide aftward, by calculation, about 0.075 inch with graph paper on slide showing relative rearward movement.

[btroj]

I joined, I saw, I was impressed.

High speed photos and X-rays tell the whole story, don't they?

I have lurked there before, way more info than I can handle in one sitting......

[35remington]

This video is fascinating. If you use your mouse to click on the motion of the film, stop action at small intervals can be seen, and the bullet leaving well before the gun unlocks or the barrel drops to any degree at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F506XIMEz0M

[35remington]

This one is even better, as it shows no movement of barrel to slide at all.......clearly the gun is in full engagement and the barrel and slide have the same relationship as the bullet exits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otpFNL3yem4&feature=related

This relationship is due to the fact the barrel and slide are locked together via lug engagement. The fact that the barrel and slide don't move in relation to each other has nothing to do with a spring. If there was no spring at all the barrel and slide would stay locked until the bullet is gone.

[35remington]

More fun:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8ed_1220480664

It's obvious in the Tripp video of the cutaway 1911 that he's using wadcutter magazines, as the rear of the rounds do not rise as they go forward. Notice on the comped pistol the comp/frame relationship does not change until the bullet is well away, which, again, means the barrel is nowhere close to unlocking when the bullet leaves.

Watch close to the end with the slo mo of the bullet leaving the 1911's muzzle. Still locked up. A weak spring would have no effect or change on this whatsoever. The barrel would still be locked to slide on bullet exit with no spring.

[btroj]

What is interesting in the slow motion is how long the slide stays fully to the rear.

[35remington]

Yeah.....the slide is sorta hanging in the space of time where rearward motion has stopped and the inertia of the slide must be overcome by the spring to start moving it forward. I guess you could call it dwell time. Part of the reason shortie 1911's are prone to bolt over base misfeeds is this motionless period of time is much shorter and the rearward travel of the breechface is only to the rear of the magwell, giving less time for the rounds in the magazine to rise before the slide goes back forward.

The fact that shorties have lighter slides accelerated by stronger springs doesn't help any.

[Old Caster]

The only gun I have ever had that needed a new spring was a Benelli 32 long. When the recoil spring gets weak, the front of the bullet will hit the top of the barrel and jam but keep in mind that this is a blowback model and doesn't have to unlock. It is then either necessary to lighten the load or replace the spring. I have extensively used 1911's since the 60's when I shot in the AMU (Advanced Marksmanship Unit) in the U.S. Army and still shoot bullseye where the 1911 is a staple. I have never changed any spring because it was worn out because none of them ever were.

[35remington]

The thing is, even blowback pistols are primarily held in battery by the weight of the bolt. The spring preload while the bullet is in the barrel is relatively small, and the purpose of the spring is primarily to reload the gun, not to hold the bolt closed while the bullet is going out the barrel.

The spring does not realize its full compressed rating (say, 16 lbs.) until it's nearly fully compressed. When the breech is closed on an autoloading arm of the blowback type the ability of the spring to keep it closed while the bullet is transiting the barrel is relatively small compared with the inertia of the bolt holding the breech closed.....or, looking at it another way, keeping the bolt movement small when the bullet is moving up the barrel.

Correct weight for the bolt in relation to bullet weight, barrel length and velocity is more important that small fractions of spring strength one way or the other in terms of keeping the bolt movement from the breech to a safe level. Far more important.

[Forrest r]

The barrel is still in battery at this point, because the the slide has not moved far enough rearward to pull the barrel out of battery.

Like I already said, you only see what you want to see, only here what you want to here & ignore everything that is against what you think.

At the end of the day the slide on a 1911 has to move rearward to pull the bbl out of battery (unlock), your words not mine. The slide doesn't move, the bbl doesn't unlock plain & simple.

I'm saying for a fact that a lite load (155gr cast bullet 3.0gr of bullseye) in a standard 1911 with an 18# spring will not move the slide, the bbl will not unlock, the 1911 stays in full battery. The same load, same 1911 & a different spring (6#) will fully function. The slide will move reward allowing the bbl to unlock.

So, back to my initial statement that you never addressed (imagine that) A 18# spring doesn't work & a 6# spring does. Therefore the spring weight has more than zero to do with how & when a 1911 unlocks.

Simple enough statement:
The 18# spring will not unlock the bbl but the 6# spring will therefore the spring weight affects how a 1911 unlocks. Prove this statement wrong!!!

[btroj]

Can you prove that it happens? Got photos? Video? Anything?

[6bg6ga]

Dale, you and I almost always agree on 1911s, but I have to part ways on this one a bit.

More battering of the barrel bottom lugs comes from too strong springs, although 18 lb is a minor misdemeanor class
offense, not like the near felony class 24 lb springs. I have run >10-15K on the same recoil spring many times and
occasionally replaced it 'for the heck of it'. Never had a frame crack, and have four guns that are at or well past 50K each,
some near to 100K, but I have lost an accurate count so just call them 'way north of 50K'. My .38 Supers run 12 lb springs,
and other 1911s run 16 lb springs. Current Kimber early model has the original spring, and is about 40-50K, not certain
exactly how much but 9 yrs of IPSC, but I wasn't practicing as much so probably only 5-6K per year, best as I can
recollect.

Smaller springs never need replacing, in my opinion.

Bill

Almost the same experiences as Bill and I agree 100% with him on this.

[35remington]

"The 18# spring will not unlock the bbl but the 6# spring will therefore the spring weight affects how a 1911 unlocks. Prove this statement wrong!!!"

Way too easy. Look at the videos. The barrel does not move in relation to the slide while the bullet is going down it.....proving it's locked. The barrel is unlocked when the bullet leaves. If the spring influenced how the gun locked, we would see some movement during this phase, but we don't. It can't move......it's locked to the slide. The slide is locked to the barrel, and pulls the barrel rearward when the bullet is transiting the barrel, but the barrel and slide do not move in relation to each other.

Let me help you in properly phrasing by putting the proper terms in your quote:

The 18# spring will not cycle the gun but the 6# spring will therefore the spring weight affects how a 1911 cycles.

That's a true statement when so edited.

You're confusing cycling with unlocking.

Understand that locking only occurs when the barrel is pulled forward against the slide by the force of the bullet, which keeps the lugs in hard engagement. When the bullet leaves, the barrel is unpressurized and the barrel can easily be pulled out of battery. The lugs aren't engaging.

"I'm saying for a fact that a lite load (155gr cast bullet 3.0gr of bullseye) in a standard 1911 with an 18# spring will not move the slide, the bbl will not unlock, the 1911 stays in full battery."

Of course the slide moves.....it has to. It has no choice, because force forward equals force backward, and the if the slide did not move there would be no bullet present.

What's messing you up is that the slide doesn't move far enough to eject the round. There's a big difference between unlocking, which requires that the bullet leaves or that the slide moves only fractionally (your proposed example is plenty) and fully ejecting the case.

Reread the explanation of how the 1911 works I posed above. I'll quote.

"Static on the bench, the breech isn't locked. "Lock" begins when the vector of force is applied and bullet movement begins."

To further quote....... "The recoil spring has very little to do with unlock timing. It has almost no influence on the slide's initial movement, and it has nothing to do with containing chamber pressures."

To repeat......the spring has absolutely nothing to do with locking the gun.

Forrest, the way you phrase your questions evidences you know very little about how the gun actually works, but you want to argue about it anyway. Better to look at this as a learning moment, because no source or authority can possibly support your concept of how the gun works.

Ever.

If the spring had an influence on how the gun locked, firing the gun with a too light spring or no spring would be dangerous.

It's not. It can be so fired with perfect safety because the spring has no influence on how the gun locks. Try it, and prove yourself wrong.

[35remington]

You're still......still......confusing unlocking with the impulse required to give the slide enough travel to fully eject the case, which is cycling. I'm not sure why.

They are two different things. Always were, always will be.

But it does fully explain why you believe out of battery firing can occur. As I said, there is a direct correlation between lack of knowledge of how the pistol works and the belief that out of battery firing can occur with a pull of the trigger.

[35remington]

Forrest try this with your 3 grain Bullseye load and 18 pound spring.

Put a piece of cellophane tape on the frame to slide forward of the slide stop pin.

Fire the gun, look at the tape. The gun unlocked the barrel AND the slide moved backward enough to take the barrel out of battery. The torn/wrinkled tape will show this. The slide didn't move far enough back to eject the empty, which you mistake for not unlocking, which is not what happened

Whatever else you think of me, you must admit I'm spending an awful lot of time educating you on what really happens when a 1911 is fired. This can only benefit you.

What you need to do is learn, which is a lot easier.

[35remington]

Keep in mind the slide only has to move a quarter inch to the rear for the barrel to come out of battery and drop the locking lugs out of the slide. Your assertion that the slide does not move when your light load is fired is wrong.

It has no choice. It has to move. It may not travel far enough to eject, but it does move, does unlock and does come out of battery with the load you propose.

[Forrest r]

Yeah.....the slide is sorta hanging in the space of time where rearward motion has stopped and the inertia of the slide must be overcome by the spring to start moving it forward. I guess you could call it dwell time.

Dwell time BBBBBBWWWAAAAA HHAAAA HHHHHHAAAAA HHA!!!!!

Thank you that's a good one!!!!

I really don't need what your calling help, I prefer to call it trolling.

And like I've posted twice you only see what you want to see & hear what you want to hear. Twist it which ever way you want but the simple truth still remains, the 18# spring won't let the bbl unlock with that load.

I can truely understand why you wouldn't admit that statements correct, it's because you'd have to admit your wrong.

Anyone can prove what I'm saying, download any bullet/powder combo they want. Use a heavy spring (18#/20#/24# the heavier the better) & shoot/lighten loads until the 1911 won't unlock. Then put a light spring (4#/6#/8# the lighter the better) in & use the same load and watch what happens.

The spring has no affect yada, yada, yada will go out the window.

[Old Caster]

If 35 Remington can't get you to understand let me try in the simplest way I can. The load has to be ridiculously light before it won't even unlock the barrel. An 18 pound spring or a 12 pound spring will be virtually the same for the first 1/2 inch or so and then get heavier. Often a light load shot with a heavy spring will back up far enough to make a jam but not far enough to cycle completely which is way past just unlocking the barrel.

[pmer]

I understand the concept of a light load not fully cycling a action. But could you guys explain the cycle of a 1911 from the point of view of the barrel link and how it is connected to the frame with the link pin.

Doesn't the slide moving forward extend the upward reach of the barrel limited to the link?

What part of slide contacts barrel to move it up into battery?

Which part of the fired gun moves first? Barrel against slide?

I would think a 1911 would cycle if held completely still for firing. And also accuracy would be bad if slide moved while boolit was still in barrel.

[btroj]

Ok, you can over spring a 1911 to the point hat a very, very light load can't push the slide back at all, this prevents the barrel from unlocking. A heavy load with a light spring does the opposite, the slide travels rearward extremely fast.

All of that makes no difference in unlocking the barrel from the slide in terms of when the bullet leaves the barrel. The barrel NEVER unlocks until the bullet is out of the barrel.

The heavy spring, light load doesn't unlock because the slide does travel rearward enough to pivot the barrel down and unlock it.

Forrest, you are confusing events. Slide momentum changes the ejection pattern but that has nothing to do with unlocking the barrel. None of the slide goes to the rear until the bullet has left the barrel.

[Forrest r]

I see you guys quoting 1911tuner allot in this thread. What is he some kind of 1911 guru? Just how good is this guy that people believe in what he says?

I've looked at the links, video's, pictures. Just wondering how reliable this info is.

[prs]

I think forrest may have decided to defend a position he knows to be wrong; a form of trolling. The good part of that is the learning experience the rest of us glean from others' futile attempts to politely explain the facts, plus the support references cited. If I fail to properly form a true impression of forest, I appologize in advance.

prs

[btroj]

I trust him. Entirely.

The link I gave was an article by Kuhnausen a guy I think everyone respects.

[Fire_Medic]

I trust him. Entirely.

The link I gave was an article by Kuhnausen a guy I think everyone respects.

Ya think, lol…….

[bhn22]

Try this....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3NRyP7uFI0

[35remington]

At times like these I bite my tongue, as I've gone down the insult for insult path and that got me nowhere and left me feeling dirty.

Forrest, I outlined the way you can determine how the slide moves with even a light 3.0 grain load of Bullseye, with tape. It also may be filmed when the gun is shot with anybody's camera as most of them have a slo mo feature. If tape is used, tape both sides and conform the tape to the slide and frame so the movement will displace or wrinkle the tape. That's how it's done.

Since you said the slide won't move at all, this is how to show it does. It has to.....it has no choice. Force forward means the slide has to go backward.

"the simple truth still remains, the 18# spring won't let the bbl unlock with that load." (3.0 Bullseye).

Sure it will. Firstly, the barrel unlocks when the bullet leaves. Secondly, the barrel will come out of battery when the slide moves only a quarter inch. That's all it takes. Since the spring preload is a few pounds, the explanation is just as Old Caster so succinctly put it. The barrel will come out of battery as well. It just won't cycle far enough to eject the case with said light load.

You still have difficulty determining the difference between the terms cycling and unlocking, let alone what out of battery means.

Further comment on your part that is similar to your last post will be ignored, and we'll have this discussion like you do not exist. How's that grabya?

Tuner is really good. I know him. He has a nice soft Carolina drawl, he's an ex Marine, he's been troubleshooting 1911's for years, has an extremely strong grasp of how the gun functions, and he's done me a few favors. In exchange, he's gently explained some facts to me. I myself have been shooting a 1911 since I was twelve, and the impressions I formed for the most part were accurate, but I got to a level of detail with him that is hard to attain unless you have access to such a person. The stickies he has in that forum are a service to everyone.

Forrest, if you don't try to duplicate the tests I've suggested, it's your loss. Willful ignorance is not a positive attribute for anyone.

The slide does move rearward when the gun is fired, and before the bullet leaves the barrel, but it doesn't move independently of the barrel until the bullet is gone. That's what btroj was getting at. The unlocking of the barrel occurs when the bullet is gone, and the barrel is pulled out of battery when the slide moves far enough rearward that the link starts tugging on the barrel. The "link pulling" phase starts to occur several hundredths of a inch after the bullet leaves, and is completed when the barrel lands in the frame bed when the slide is about a quarter inch rearward from its starting position.

Pmer had some really good stuff. Quoting:

"Doesn't the slide moving forward extend the upward reach of the barrel limited to the link?

What part of slide contacts barrel to move it up into battery?

Which part of the fired gun moves first? Barrel against slide?

I would think a 1911 would cycle if held completely still for firing. And also accuracy would be bad if slide moved while boolit was still in barrel."

The link and the lower barrel lug feet climb the slidestop pin and put the barrel back into battery. The barrel would go into battery even if the link was absent, but the link is necessary to lower the barrel to the frame bed and take the barrel out of battery when the slide goes rearward. A Glock works identically, but has camming (angled) surfaces instead of a link. The angled surfaces on the bottom of the barrel in a Glock pull it out of and put it back into battery.

Cycle the 1911 and look at it. The barrel stays in its bed until the slide's breechface makes contact with the chamber end of the barrel. Some barrels are fitted so there is some gap between hood and breech, so it's not necessarily the hood that makes first contact with the breech. It may be lower down on the barrel. This contact makes the lug feet climb the slide stop pin and the link swing upward, pulling the barrel back toward battery.

The part of the gun that moves first, if you wanted to split hairs to nanoseconds, is probably the barrel because it's lighter and has less inertia to overcome, and also assuming the bullet has no or a very short jump to the rifling. This motion locks the barrel to the slide when it's fired and the barrel moves only a few thousandths of an inch, if that, until the lugs engage the seats in the slide with hard contact. The lugs are held in contact with the preload of the spring before firing, but the barrel is not locked up. The case slamming against the breechface starts the slide in motion rearward. Both barrel and slide receive the impulse to move at pretty much the same moment, for all practical purposes. Which moves first depends upon its mass. That's probably the barrel.

Very fractionally it moves, until the gap between lugs was taken up and the gun is locked up, which is a very short distance approaching zero.....but never quite zero due to the elasticity of steel and the fact that all the lugs may not be bearing evenly. At that point the barrel is resisting the rearward motion of the slide due to the pressures driving the bullet forward......but the slide is tugging both barrel and bullet backward a small distance when the bullet is in the barrel. Only the fact that the bullet is lighter enables the bullet to considerably outpace the slide. Five steps forward, one step back.

Actually, 34 steps forward, one step back. That's the ratio of slide weight to bullet weight in a 1911 when a 230 grain bullet is used in a five inch gun.

Not only does the slide move when the bullet is in the barrel, it moves about or just under a tenth of an inch while it is doing so. Accuracy is a function of how well the barrel and slide are fitted and how repeatedly it does it from shot to shot in terms of being in the same place at the same point in the firing cycle.

1911's have a well deserved reputation for being more accurate than other automatic pistols, but mostly due to the possibility of hand fitting the parts and the long engagement surfaces between slide and frame that keeps everything in alignment (the short rails of the Glock and similar polymer pistols are both a blessing and a curse by comparison). A 1911's accuracy cannot compare to a well chambered automatic that has a fixed barrel that does not move in relation to the slide or the sights, like my original High Standard Supermatic Citation .22 target pistol. That gun will shoot rings around any 1911 made, but the 1911's accuracy is quite good enough for what it is for, and the good ones can hold 2 inches or less, some noticeably less, at 50 yards.

What's most interesting is some engineers at Leupold made a study of the G forces on a 1911. The highest impacts were not the slide hitting the frame, nor the gun going back into battery as the slide went forward. Those were both about 500 G's.

The highest force of 2000 G's was when the gun was fired, the lugs slam into lockup with the slide, and the case crashes against the breechface. This isn't a push, it's a hammering blow.

Everyone worries that heavy loads will batter a 1911, but they worry about the wrong spot and fix it with the wrong cure (heavy springs) that are worse than the disease. The vulnerable area isn't the VIS (vertical impact surface) in the frame. That was designed to be struck by the slide, which really isn't moving all that fast anyway (about 17 mph peak speed and noticeably less at true impact).

What's hard on the gun with heavy loads is the slamming (remember the 2000 G's) it gets around the breechface area. The sharp corners around the breechface/ejection port area are stress risers for cracking.

[Shiloh]

Went with a 17 pound recoil spring last time I replaced it. That was back in August.
There have been magazines loaded for decades that work flawlessly when fired.
Replaced the plunger spring and firing pin rebound spring at the same time. Just thought, what the heck. Gave me a reason to work on the 1911

Shiloh

[MtGun44]

35 Rem - Wasted breath. The IGNORE setting is the easiest way to
deal with some folks. It is difficult to decide whether this nutball is just
trying to push buttons or actually has that magic combination of arrogance
and ignorance that constitutes "the sweet spot" of irretrievable inability
to be educated.

If you are having fun, by all means, carry on - but I think the task is like
tilting at windmills.

Bill

[35remington]

MtGun, as usual, you have good advice. At this point he's pretty obviously pushing buttons. He can't really be this clueless and still believe he knows what he's talking about.

It was a slow last couple of nights on my part, and I indulged a bit. Explaining under such conditions is good mental exercise and teaches restraint when people are being this deliberately foolish and confrontational, so it's sort of an exercise for the evening free time.

[MtGun44]

Agree that explaining is a good mental exercise. A pity to waste it.

Bill

[Forrest r]

Figured you'd be around sooner or later mtgun44, hope you enjoyed your holidays.

Bite your tongue???? Are you kidding me, I make a post (#25) about what I use, what I look for with my pistols & my concerns with my pistols. I ended the thread with “to each their own”. I never told anyone what to use, how to use/test anything or even how they should look at/view anything.

The only words that were directed towards anyone in that whole post was towards me, myself & I.

From that post I get renington35 telling me I don’t know anything about how the 1911 operates & “That much hasn’t changed since our last discussion” Our “last discussion” was about hp bullet in a 1911 from A MONTH AGO. I don’t see anything near what I’d call help in such statement & referring to something that happened A MONTH AGO where he came out looking less than stellar tells me exactly what his post (#27) was all about, trolling.

If his intent was too actually help then why would the statement “that much hasn’t changed since our last discussion”.

I love post #39 in this thread, A MONTH AGO when we had “our discussion”, the guy that was referred to in that link was being called an internet amateur, is completely wrong & doesn’t have a clue by the poster of that thread. Today I guess the guys good enough, must be the subject matter & who it favors, go figure.

So after the usual flooding of posts, parroting other people’s ideas it all comes down to this:
Whether or not I should be concerned about MY BBL unlocking allot quicker in MY 1911. And to this I say ABSOLUTELT!!!!!!!!!

Well let’s get down to it:
I asked about 1911tuner because I seems that people value his opinions about a 1911. I just wanted to make sure and asked people what they thought of him. btroj say he trusts him entirely in post #58 & remington35 say he knows him, that he’s really good & that he knows his way around 1911’s in post #61

Well here’s a link to your experts website about a post on this very topic.

http://www.americanclassic1911forum.com/forumsii/showthread.php?74-Tech-Topics-V-Kuhnhausen-s-Balanced-Thrust-Vector

Odd, your expert is saying the same thing I’ve been saying since post post#25.

After all the parroting of what people read, mis-information & amateurs that “still don’t know a thing about how a 1911 operates”. I’m the only one that got it right & your expert backs what I’ve been saying all along.

I've said it before & I'll say it again. You only see what you want to see & hear what you want to here. Now you're going to have to say 1911tuner is wrong & doesn't know what he's talking about.

:coffeecom

[Forrest r]

Might as well put dwell time on the table.

It has nothing to do with the mechanical function of a 1911. Any bullseye shooter knows this, dwell time is all about the bullet. It's the time from the cartridges ignition to the the time the bullet leaves the bbl.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accurizing

[btroj]

His comment on dwell time was in reference to my comment on the slow motion video of the 1911 firing. I commented on how long the slide was fully to the rear, he commented and said just call it dell time.

We could dwell on dwell time but can't it be said that anytime some takes time there is dwell time involved? The fact it was used in a wiki article in terms of barrel time for a bullet doesn't mean the term has no relevance in other areas of shooting.

As for tuners comments, he mentioned that the slide has begun slightly rearward. He never said the barrel is unlocked, did he?

This is like talking to Frank?

[35remington]

That's enough. The linked post by Tuner that has been referred to has absolutely nothing to do with confirming Forrest's assertions. It's Ignore Time. Persistent nonsense deserves no reply.

[Forrest r]

Actually, yes he clearly says the bbl moved.

It doesn't say only the slide moved .075, he clearly writes:

Take note of the link's position and of the alignment of slide and frame at the rear. Here, it appears that the slide and barrel have moved about .075 inch...and that's just about right relative to the bullet's location.

Maybe it's me but I clearly see in writing the slide & bbl have moved. It's the 4th statement up from the bottom of his article.

You might want to re-read what your expert wrote.

As far as dwell time: I'm not the 1 that brought it up, read post #42. I'm merely pointing out what dwell time is. Anyone who knows anything about 1911's & how they operate should know that after the bullet has left the bbl the movement of the slide has nothing to do with "dwell time".

[Forrest r]

That's enough. It's Ignore Time. Persistent nonsense deserves no reply.

I agree, everyone asked me to prove what I'm says so I did with the expert everyone kept quoting me to read & understand. It's your expert not mine, I do find it interesting that you will quote him or any other expert as long as it helps you personally. As soon as that same expert says says something you don't like it's wrong or nonsense.

To everyone else, the expert they value so highly as do others put it in writing for the world to see about the 1911's recoil spring & it's relationship to how/when the 1911 unlocks.

So back to my original comments in post #25:
The other thing that concerns me is the bbl's unlocking allot quicker when it's throwing the brass 6'+ compared to 3' when the spring was new.
To each their own.

[35remington]

Here's a good one.

http://www.americanclassic1911forum.com/forumsii/showthread.php?677-FIring-out-of-Battery-The-myth

[6bg6ga]

With respect to keeping mags loaded and spring weakening. I have a neighbor that claims this is an absolute and under no circumstances should a mag be left loaded.
Well, have had a few mags loaded in excess of 20 years and recently went out shooting. They functioned as new. I do not buy the spring wear out hype. You don't fix it if it ain't broke.

Now to find my book on how a 45 works..lol

[Forrest r]

Here's a good one.

http://www.americanclassic1911forum.com/forumsii/showthread.php?677-FIring-out-of-Battery-The-myth

There you go quoting 1911tuner again, must value what he says!!!!

You're the only one who has mentioned out of battery firing, go back & look at all my post in this thread of this website since I joined it. I HAVE NEVER POSTED/WROTE ANYTHING EVER ABOUT OUT OF BATTERY FIRING UNTIL THIS POST.

I have & did say and I'm saying it now "The bbl moves reward before the bullet leaves the bbl on a 1911".

It has nothing to do with dwell time, obi's or anything else. Why you keep saying I mean something else is beyond me. I mean what I say, read my lips:

"The bbl moves reward before the bullet leaves the bbl on a 1911".

Here's your expert saying the same thing:

http://www.americanclassic1911forum.com/forumsii/showthread.php?74-Tech-Topics-V-Kuhnhausen-s-Balanced-Thrust-Vector

I've said it before & I'll say it again. You only see what you want to see & hear what you want to here.

I'm not going to waste anymore time with this, the truth is in front of you & you choose not to see it. I really don't blame you for not addressing what your expert (1911tuner) says because it goes against everything you've been writing on this website about 1911's for years.

At least I stepped up to the plate and directly answered your question of prove it.

Now it's your turn to step up!!!
I agree with 1911 tuner, we both are saying the same thing. "The bbl moves reward before the bullet leaves the bbl on a 1911".

Prove me wrong.

forrest r

[btroj]

No Forrest, you said originally that the spring affects how fast the gun unlocks. Nothing tuner said proves that. When the barrel moves has nothing to do with the spring.

I'm done feeding trolls.

[pmer]

Thanks a ton for covering my questions I have a much deeper understanding now. When I got home I grabbed the 1911 and watched its movement. My WAG is that the link is slightly over center when the slide is forward? Meaning the top part of the link is slightly ahead of the lower part. This would help the slide move as far as it does before the link pulls the barrel down.

I also see additional resistance to the slide moving rearward after it fires in that it has to reset the hammer. I'd guess hammer spring is figured in too.

[6bg6ga]

No Forrest, you said originally that the spring affects how fast the gun unlocks. Nothing tuner said proves that. When the barrel moves has nothing to do with the spring.

I'm done feeding trolls.


Ok, enough of this.......lets vote on it and get it over with

[Forrest r]

http://www.m1911.org/locking.htm

Looking at this it seems the barrel does NOT unlock until the bullet is put of the barrel. Period. Spring strength has nothing to do with how fast the bullet leaves the barrel.

A stronger spring DOES slow the slide down AFTER the bullet has left the barrel. This can change the ejection pattern of the pistol

I would say that since this is a reprint from an article by Kuhnausen it is pretty dang reliable info.

Forrest, he may use 8th grade math but the man knows his 1911.

You might want to study a little bit more on how a 1911 operates.

No Forrest, you said originally that the spring affects how fast the gun unlocks. Nothing tuner said proves that. When the barrel moves has nothing to do with the spring.

I'm glad to see that you continually coming to help remington35, he needs it. Perhaps you 2 can take night classes together or one of those on-line gunsmithings classes.

As far as the spring affecting how fast the 1911 unlocks, yes that is my concern. When you learn how a 1911 operates you'll understand how & why this is important.

How about a couple of things to ponder:
A 1911's bbl moves/unlocks before the bullet leaves the bbl, last I knew bbl movement affects poa/accuracy.
A weak wore out spring allows more bbl movement than consistent new spring.

As far as trolling, not hardly. I tried to keep it simple, strong spring weak load/weak spring weak load and bbl movement/unlocking. And everyone kept saying I don't know what I'm talking about & prove it. So I did.

If you or anyone else can't understand when a 1911 bbl unlocks, how it unlocks or why it unlocks & how the difference in pressures of the different recoil springs affect how & when the 1911 bbl's movement/distance of movement when it unlocks while the bullets still in the bbl & the affects the bbl movement has on that bullet's poa and accuracy in general, then so be it.

Myself, I'll change my spring in my 1911 every year or when I see the cases ejecting past 6' (me/myself/ & I).
To each their own.

Enough of this thread, you can lead a horse to water just to watch them drowned.

[waksupi]

Something to keep in mind.

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Swearing or Telling off a Staff Member

[35remington]

pmer, you guessed right. The link pivots from one side of the link pin to the other as the slide moves backward, allowing it to delay taking the barrel out of battery until after the bullet leaves the barrel.

The enhanced version of the X ray in the forum site shows the link on the opposite side of the link pin from where it started so the link is not yet pulling on the barrel. It is just past the vertical.

[6bg6ga]

pmer, you guessed right. The link pivots from one side of the link pin to the other as the slide moves backward, allowing it to delay taking the barrel out of battery until after the bullet leaves the barrel.

The enhanced version of the X ray in the forum site shows the link on the opposite side of the link pin from where it started so the link is not yet pulling on the barrel. It is just past the vertical.


Just got done playing with one of my 45's and I agree 100% with what you are saying.

[Old Caster]

If the barrel even thought about moving before the bullet was gone, there is no way that some of these guns could approach the accuracy they are capable of. It would have to move the same every time. Good luck with that.

[35remington]

Well.......the barrel does move backward when the gun fires and as the bullet goes through it. And maybe radially as well due to how tightly it fits at the bushing and the breech end.

Can't be helped.

"Drop in fit" parts mean the 1911 won't shoot a lot better than your average Glock. Which is why tinkering with the 1911 is so popular.....there's a lot that can be upgraded in terms of fit.

But the real need to do so is probably low for most users.

[Old Caster]

Actually I was referencing that the barrel doesn't move from the unlocking of it by the slide through the link because even when the hammer hits the primer, the barrel will move but it doesn't move anywhere near as much as one might think even from the explosion.

At 50 yards, if the barrel moved move just .001 of an inch at the front or rear, the bullet would be pointed at almost 3/8's of an inch different place. Some of these guns will shoot 10 shots in a 1.5 inch group which means that if the bullet flew perfectly straight (which it won't) and the barrel was misplaced only by a little more than .004 of an inch and that would have to be movement left and right which makes an actual error of only .002 each way the group would be 1.5 inches.

Consequently what I was pointing out was that the barrel does not move from its resting place until the bullet is quite a way out the barrel.

If anyone had watched the program Top Shot, the slow motion photography showed how real this is as the smoke that was easy to see was way out the barrel before recoil or any movement on the part of the gun was even noticed.

[btroj]

Something to keep in mind.

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Point taken.

I'm done

[Boogieman]

The link unlocks the barrel from the slide at the same point . It's fixed, spring rate can't change it. Spring rates & bullet weight will change how fast that happens after firing. IE. slide velocity. Lower power or worn springs will allow higher velocity & stronger ejection. Stronger springs , within reason, will lesson felt recoil . Powder burn rates also change slide velocity.