Can anyone tell me what vintage these 1911 Magazines are?

[Just Duke]

It might be a shame to drill them for base pads if they have any reenactor value to them. Myself I prefer Stainless Chip McCormick 10 rounders.


http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/S1/1911MAGS.jpg~original (http://s921.photobucket.com/user/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/media/S1/1911MAGS.jpg.html)

[John Allen]

Duke, here is what I found. It looks like just standard milspec but I am not 100 percent.


Cage ID 1M291 1M291
Cage Name CHECK-MATE INDUSTRIES INC
Cage Address 777 MOUNT AVE

City, State WYANDANCH NY
11798-4434

[Just Duke]

Duke, here is what I found. It looks like just standard milspec but I am not 100 percent.


Cage ID 1M291 1M291
Cage Name CHECK-MATE INDUSTRIES INC
Cage Address 777 MOUNT AVE

City, State WYANDANCH NY
11798-4434


The Checkmate website says they have only been in business 40 years so looks like they would not be WWII vintage then.

[Dutchman]

I have the exact same magazines that I've been using for a long time. Bought them at the Great Western gunshow in Pomona, Calif in the 1980s. They were sealed in long term milspec bags and dated........ I wanna say Vietnam era but really I can't recall what the packaging was dated. Pretty sure I bought 4 of them and I do recall they were $7 each.

Dutch

[mikeym1a]

You wanna sell them? I'm looking for some 1911 mags. ??!?

[35remington]

You can buy brand new Checkmates of the same pattern from the original company.

The Vietnam war would have been over before the pictured ones went into circulation.

Duke, these magazines are the tapered lip variety JMB intended to be used with his 1911 design. A ten shot CmC can't claim that and is much more nosediving prone than these are.

[scattershot]

Could you please explain tapered lip mags to me? I thought they were pretty much the same.

[prs]

Go to the Check Mate Industeries view the 1911 magazines and click on the small photo to enlarge. This shows the lips with red marker to show parallel VS tapered Vs hybrid. There are also differeng followers, but I did not notice their explanation.

prs

[savagetactical]

70's and 80's vintage mags for the M1911A1. Not super collectible and not super expensive, I still see them from time to time at fun shows when I get to go. I think those used to cost me around $6 to $8 a piece depending on who had them for sale. Same mags we used to use when I was in the Army back in the day also.

[35remington]

Tapered lip magazines, unlike McCormick type magazines, have lips that taper from back to front. This lets the round rise at the rear as its goes forward, making the cartridge enter the chamber at a flatter, smoother feeding angle.

JMB's design for the 1911 had tapered lips for a reason. All other types are nonstandard.

Here is a picture I took some time back that show a tapered lip magazine versus a McCormick Power Mag. Both magazines are just at their release points. Which one feeds the cartridge straighter? The one that has the round rise higher at the rear when feeding. This also ensures a better chance of the rim getting under the extractor than nontapered lip magazines.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/johnnyrem/Feedlips.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/johnnyrem/media/Feedlips.jpg.html)

[35remington]

This is how a McCormick follower, which is unstable due to missing its rear skirt, can be crammed into the magazine tube with finger pressure.

Try doing that with a GI magazine's seven shot follower. No way, no how. Solid as a rock.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/johnnyrem/DSC02140.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/johnnyrem/media/DSC02140.jpg.html)

[prs]

Good photos for the question. That seond one depicts something I certainlt don't want. Maybe in another post you could show this and others. Then some of the various followers and their features. Would have great potential as a helpful sticky. There seems to be so much variety and so much hype, when our grandfathers had it already laid out so nice and neat for us.

prs

[btroj]

But Chip says they are the best.....

Imagine that, Browning designed a magazine that feeds the gun well and in the manner it was designed. Who woulda thunk it?

[35remington]

Well said.

The proper magazine type was specified by the 1911's designer. We've forgotten what worked......and why. Fortunately Checkmate makes the right type and is selling them again.

[btroj]

Why anyone tries to redesign something Browning designed is besides me. He was a genius and made guns that work, they are best left as designed.

How many of the aftermarket parts for the 1911 are the reason the gun has a reputation for being difficult to feed?

[35remington]

Okay, you wanted more pictures.

Differences in release points, all tapered lip magazines. Top is an original GI. Middle is an original GI that John Travis (aka 1911Tuner) modified for me to replicate the hybrid's release point but with a controlled (drag type) release rather than the more abrupt release of the hybrid, which is a tapered lip magazine with a flared release point that Colt supplies as standard with their pistols as a seven shot type. Bottom is a hybrid.

You can see the flared spot in the hybrid's feed lips. Compare this to the tapered unflared lips of the GI's.

Note the difference in release points in the rim's location in relation to the dimple on the follower. The hybrid releases earliest by a small margin. Current GI Checkmates have a release on the front side of the dimple, or a bit earlier than the GI shown on top. This is actually a very useful release range, and makes their GI magazines suited for ammo besides just ball.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/johnnyrem/DSC02132.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/johnnyrem/media/DSC02132.jpg.html)

[35remington]

btroj, I'd guess most of the aftermarket stuff for the 1911 is the opposite of an improvement.

[35remington]

The bottom magazine is a McCormick. The top is a tapered lip, flared release point Colt hybrid magazine supplied with their current Series 70 Reproduction. Checkmate makes these as well. It is an excellent all around design.

Ironically, Wilson Combat is selling these as well, with the extra power spring. A very good buy and the way to get them.....or order from Checkmate and specify the extra power spring, about 2.25 extra. Not listed in the catalog but they will know what you are talking about as I order mine that way.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/johnnyrem/DSC02139.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/johnnyrem/media/DSC02139.jpg.html)

[35remington]

The release point of the McCormick is somewhat earlier than the Colt hybrid type. The McCormick is on the bottom in this photo.

The hybrid needs space for the taper to work; if the release was too soon the taper would have no time to take effect and space for the round to rise. This is why the hybrid is not so good with the very short button nose wadcutters that are found in target loads. The McCormick type is better for that.

However, 1911 reliability is at its very best when used with longer OAL rounds that cater to its preference in feeding with tapered lip magazines. In other words, rounds longer than about 1.200" OAL.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/johnnyrem/DSC02136.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/johnnyrem/media/DSC02136.jpg.html)

The two rounds pictured actually find great favor with the hybrid magazine on the top as both have sufficient OAL. Ironically, the McCormick type magazines are more suited for nonstandard short 1911 ammo than they are for standard 1911 ammo. The McCormick type design came about to feed short target wadcutters; what was nonsensical was using them as the standard for everything.

The standard was JMB's design. What is a wonder is why we forgot that.

The rounds are one of the innumerable HG 68 clones and Winchester SXT hollowpoints. Both great for hybrid magazines and can be considered "standard" 45 ACP/1911 ammo.

[btroj]

Ok, so how do hybrid lips compare to GI tapered lips with a bullet like the HG 68 loaded with around 1/16 inch of shoulder out of the case?

They seem to be running fine in my Colt. I don't shoot anything but the HG 68 style bullets from a Mihec mould or a Lee 230 TC.

I did have an odd jam today on the last round from a magazine. The fired case rim actually went back into the magazine. I had to tip the case mouth down and let the slide to forward to strip it from the magazine. I thought it was a bit odd.

[35remington]

Fired case getting jammed back into the magazine isn't the magazine. The extractor may have lost control of the round on the way back out of the gun. Also look at the fired round and ensure the rim isn't bent. See if you can get it to repeat; also look at the extractor and see if it clocks to any degree and has sufficient tension.

Both hybrid and GI do great with the HG 68. Long OAL duplicates the ball profile and both magazines just feel it's ducky for feeding.

[btroj]

It was a load I picked just to use up some bullets. It was a "normal" velocity load with a 230 TC. Sure ejects case different than my swc at 750!
I have never bounced an empty off my teeth before, I need to learn to keep my mouth shut when I shoot!

I will see of this ever recreates itself. It was a bit odd.

[35remington]

My new Series 70 tossed a case right at the bill of my cap one time. It bounced off and went down my shirt collar and stuck between my neck and shoulder. Ejected cases on a 95 degree day sure are hot!

[prs]

Thank you, big time! A real education.

prs

[scattershot]

Thanks for the info, very helpful.

[Char-Gar]

Why anyone tries to redesign something Browning designed is besides me. He was a genius and made guns that work, they are best left as designed.

How many of the aftermarket parts for the 1911 are the reason the gun has a reputation for being difficult to feed?

Ain't that the truth!!!!!!

[Just Duke]

Thanks all that contributed here.

[prs]

Can we continue regarding anorther magazine feature? At first the follower caught my attention and distracted my notice of the finer details of the lips. Many brands or models seem similar, yet there are differences.

All I have seen have a rearward stage to support the last cartridge up to about the release point. Many continue the stage on that same plane at the right hand side up to near the front of the case. The width of that extention varies. Many, if not all of these extended stage designs, also have a left side extension foreward, but at a fraction of an inch below that upper right one. Most of these with the extended follower stage have an upward dimple or bump at the release point.

Then we have several brands or models such as the ones offered by Wolff where the folower's cartridge support ends at about the release point without any obvious bump or dimple, the metal then diving down that fraction of an inch before continuing forward to the front of the case where it courses downward again to "skirt" the magazine case.

How do these variations of form effect function of feed, extraction, ejection, and slide action? Even Kuhnhausen gives these matters little descriptive detail.

I expect that form common to the Check Mate G-I type magazines reflects J.M. Browning's design for hard ball ammo.

prs

[35remington]

The bump on the follower is expected to prevent the last round from jumping the feed lips from the inertial impact of the slide hitting the frame. This same bump cannot be used on the Devel type followers in the McCormick magazines due to the fact that they make their short skirted follower more prone to nosediving.

Thus, when the Chipster promotes the short skirt follower idea , he's selling you a follower that due to the shortness of the skirt is doubly flawed; it's less stable in the magazine tube and less stable under the sliding motion of cartridge movement on the last shot in the magazine, thus causing the very beneficial dimple to have to be removed. This is the exact opposite of a win-win, being a lose-lose.

I'm not sure for the reasoning of a two leveled follower. If it was truly a detriment to have a single level follower they wouldn't work, and the vast majority of magazines have them. I would suppose it is to let the cartridge fly up under the extractor without any further influence from the follower, but its necessity is very very arguable.

The best insurance that the rim will find its way under the extractor is to make sure the rim is closer to the extractor when it is released. That is what tapered lip magazines do in preserving the JMB designed feeding path. The straight lip magazines feed more steeply and let the cartridge fly at the extractor when the rim is further away from said extractor. Also a lose-lose.

[35remington]

The form common to the CheckMate GI is Browning's design, intact and unaltered. These magazines feed ball better than the straight lipped wadcutter type magazine.

One cannot say, "Oh, that's no biggie. Any magazine will feed ball."

Most assuredly not true. Many of the newer magazines have features that make them feed ball less reliably than JMB's original design, and lack the features that help them work when the gun is slightly out of spec, which may happen on large production runs in wartime. JMB had that covered, too. The newer designs do not.

The pity is that most do not know this either.

[prs]

When Check Mate G-I style becomes available again, I will "spring" for a couple or few.

I thank you kindly for your explanations.

prs

[35remington]

Get the extra power springs for them when you buy them. You must ask for them; it is not in the catalog but they will known what you are talking about. This is 2.25 extra last time I bought some. If you were to buy them later from Wolff it would cost much more than that per spring.

The style is available now and into the foreseeable future, but they may not be making any for awhile if inventory is sufficient. Call them and see if they are currently in stock.

[Jeff R]

I just learned more about the 1911 in the last 10 minutes, reading this thread, than I have in a long time. Thank You for posting this information.
Jeff