BHN Recommendation

[hammer58]

Hey guys, this is probably a common question, but what would be a recommended BHN for a .357 158 gr SWC target load?

[Sgtonory]

I shoot them as soft or hard as i have on hand. Just shot over 500 from range scrap and 0 leading. This was 158g over 4.1g of BE. Hope this helps.

[hammer58]

When I first started casting, I made the mistake of using data from a jacketed bullet and used 7.0 gr of Unique. That lead to a considerable amount of leading in the barrel of my Ruger SP101 with a 4" barrel. It took a LOT of work to remove all of the lead. I just don't want to lead the barrel again. I have been casting clip on WW and the best I can tell using the pencil test, it is about a BHN of 9 or 10.

[Sgtonory]

Even with 7g of unique i would not think it would lead. What kinda lube and what are you sizeing to?

[Sgtonory]

Where was the leading? At the forcing cone, End or begining of barrel? etc

[hammer58]

The boolit is the Lee tumble lube 158 gr SWC. The lube I use is the Liquid Alox from Lee. I am not resizing the boolits. They usually consistently drop at .358 directly from the mold. It is my understanding from the literature I got with the mold and info from a friend that I should not need to resize the boolits.

The leading happened just after the forcing cone right where the riflings start.

[waco]

Size is everything. Slug the barrel, and the throats. Size accordingly.

[Sgtonory]

Size is everything.

Thats what she said :)

[bangerjim]

Worries about hardness go away when you ES powder coat your boolits! I shoot around 10-12 bhn and then coat all my cal's. NEVER any leading!!!!!!!!!!

banger

[hammer58]

What is ES powder coating?

[hammer58]

WACO, I have slugged the barrel but I have not found a good way to measure the slug. This gun has 5 riflings simply using a micrometer will not work.

[detox]

Try water quenching to make bullets harder. Is the gun new? how many rounds fired using jacketed....barrel may be a little sharp edged until broken in.

[bhn22]

What powders do you have available? We know that your bullets run about 10 bhn, so you should see positive results around 14,200 CUP. Figure 15,000 as a round number. Perhaps the classic 5.5 gr of Unique in a .357 case would be a good place to start.

To remove leading from a barrel, buy a COPPER Chore Boy pot scrubber from the grocery store. Cut it so you can unravel a few strands, and wrap them around your bore brush. Run the bore brush through the bore a few times and the lead will come out. You did get the COPPER Chore Boy, and not the stainless one, right? The stainless one will damage your bore. If you get adventurous, and try a different brand, check it with a magnet to be certain it is actually COPPER.

[MtGun44]

8 - 12 BHN works fine. Harder is not required. Proper fit IS required. Size to .358 and go test, you
have about 90% or better chance of being fine. TL is an iffy proposition for .357 Mag level loads, should
be able to get it working with .38 Spl level loads. Not a fan of TL but understand the attraction of
not buying a lubrisizer. Hardness is NOT the way to prevent leading. This is a baloney old wives
tale.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50446&d=1244513448

This is air cooled wwts, about 12 BHN

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50444&d=1244513091

Another at 8 BHN, none wear GCs, not needed for pistols

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50443&d=1244513091

Bill

[62chevy]

The boolit is the Lee tumble lube 158 gr SWC. The lube I use is the Liquid Alox from Lee. I am not resizing the boolits. They usually consistently drop at .358 directly from the mold. It is my understanding from the literature I got with the mold and info from a friend that I should not need to resize the boolits.

The leading happened just after the forcing cone right where the riflings start.

I highly recommend Glenn Fryxell From Ingot to Target.

HTML Version: http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

PDF Version: http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf

Check out the section on why revolvers lead.

[waco]

WACO, I have slugged the barrel but I have not found a good way to measure the slug. This gun has 5 riflings simply using a micrometer will not work.

I'd just measure the cylinder throats and size to them. You want a snug fit. be able to push the boolit through with a pencil.

['74 sharps]

Go to the LASC website and you'll find the best explanation of why a bullets hardness is related to pressure the load produces in prevention of leading. leading. When using a softer alloy in a 38/357 mild load, bullet obturation will take care of any sizing issues. I'll pass on whacking a chunk of lead through my bore and then trying to get a consistent reading on it's size.

[cbrick]

Hammer58 welcome to CastBoolits,

You mentioned "When I first started casting, I made the mistake of using data from a jacketed bullet and used 7.0 gr of Unique." but I didn't see what load your using now. I've never been a fan of max doses of fast powder in mag cases, better results often come from a slower powder. With a fast powder & trying to get velocity up it's like whacking the boolit in the hieny with a sledge hammer & giving it all of it's energy all at once. You said the leading was just past the forcing cone at the beginning of the rifling & it's possible fast powder is part of the reason.

It's not necessarily using book loads for jacketed with cast boolits, I do it routinely with most handguns & many rifles with excellent results using the slowest recommended powder that will get me to velocity I'm looking for.

It's also not nearly as much how hard as it is how well it fits the firearm it's to be fired in. There is no need to shoot diamonds but there is for a boolit that fits.

Like Bill I am no fan of tumble lube boolits in mag cartridges but with leading at the beginning of the rifling it's probably not a lube issue. More likely a fast powder and/or fit issue.

Rick

[44man]

Slump or skid are the two things to avoid. A boolit just hard or a better word is tough enough is all you need.
Leading just past the cone is from the boolit wanting to keep going straight and not taking the rifling. Grooves get larger then the rifling and jet gas.
Leading in the cone or cylinder and even on the outside of the gun is from slump, lead can jet out the gap.
BHN might be the wrong thing to tell you, 1000 different alloys can have the same BHN.
I have always felt the smaller the case and the faster the powder needed, can cause the most leading.
I do not believe in making a boolit expand to obturate, make it fit but you still need to play with an alloy.
Also remember, slump can eject all lube out of the gap when the grooves are mashed away.

[detox]

Hey guys, this is probably a common question, but what would be a recommended BHN for a .357 158 gr SWC target load?

If your gun is perfect you can shoot most any alloy if you match it to PSI. My 686 likes hard Linotype with lighter weight bullets...maybe because bullet deforms less when fired. Spend the money and test

Gas checks can be fun to experiment with, but they must be seated square and stay on in flight to work.

[Larry Gibson]

WACO, I have slugged the barrel but I have not found a good way to measure the slug. This gun has 5 riflings simply using a micrometer will not work.

PM me if you want an easy way to measure that slug.

With straight COWW alloy and that Lee TL bullet you may be getting antimonal wash in lieu of "leading". I suggest you add 2 % tin to the COWWs. The bullets will cast a whole lot better and more consistently. That will give a good alloy for the magnum level loads. For general shooting with 38 SPL or mid range magnum loads you can cut that alloy with 50% lead and it will work quite well.

I know the Lee manual says you can shoot the TL bullets unsized and you certainly can, no doubt about that. However, I have the same TL bullet and load/shoot it in my own .38s and .357s. I get much better accuracy if the bullets are sized. I use a .358 Lee push through if TL'd or a .358 H&I die in the 450 lubrasizer. When sized the bullets give better internal ballistics in the revolver throats and forcing cone because they are uniform in size. I also get better accuracy/consistency out of the other TL handgun bullets I use in .32, 41 and 44 calibers.

Also 7 gr is a bit hot for that cast bullet. It is a top end magnum load, still safe but it is pushing that T bullet really hard. The max load of Unique I'll use with that TL bullet is 6 gr which makes for a very good mid range 357 load. However, I generally reserve that bullet for my .38 SPL and low range .357 magnum loads using 4 gr Bullseye in 38 SPL cases and 4.5 gr Bullseye in 357 magnum cases.

The Lee TL 158 SWC is a good bullet but it does have it's limitations, especially at the top end 357 magnum level. If you want really true 357 magnum level performance with excellent accuracy you might consider the Lee C358-158-SWC or the Lyman 358156. Both are GC bullets and are excellent for true top end magnum loads (1400+ fps with 6" + barrel) with softer alloys for better terminal performance also. Or if you want to use a PB'd it's awful hard to beat the old 358421 as Mtgun44's posts show. Just food for future thoughts.

Larry Gibson

[Gtek]

Measuring the five groove, try finding about .002" shim stock. Bend into 180 around boolit and slide back with shim running parallel and mic boolit, total minus .004". One can pound the lead in and out of pieces, but what about finding someone with gauge pins? I bought mine years ago so that step is an easy one. Go find someone with a set and check your piece out. Throat in cylinder, slide them through barrel to confirm no reduction of ID in forcing cone area of barrel during machining OD. Cylinder dimension confirmed, no restrictions in barrel confirmed, slugged barrel dimension confirmed. Now boolit size to try, then alloy, powder, lube. Sometimes things are not as they should be dimension wise and that can take you into all kinds of crazy projects, opening up cylinder, fire lapping restriction in forcing cone, etc.. Gtek

['74 sharps]

Measuring the five groove, try finding about .002" shim stock. Bend into 180 around boolit and slide back with shim running parallel and mic boolit, total minus .004". One can pound the lead in and out of pieces, but what about finding someone with gauge pins? I bought mine years ago so that step is an easy one. Go find someone with a set and check your piece out. Throat in cylinder, slide them through barrel to confirm no reduction of ID in forcing cone area of barrel during machining OD. Cylinder dimension confirmed, no restrictions in barrel confirmed, slugged barrel dimension confirmed. Now boolit size to try, then alloy, powder, lube. Sometimes things are not as they should be dimension wise and that can take you into all kinds of crazy projects, opening up cylinder, fire lapping restriction in forcing cone, etc.. Gtek

Terminology is correct for the projects........

[mdi]

Size is everything. Slug the barrel, and the throats. Size accordingly.
Yep, Waco is right. Sizing a lead bullet to fit the cylinder throats/groove diameter is more important than BHN. For 11 years I didn't know the BHN of my alloys and developed good, leading free bullets. Then I discovered the "formula" for bullet hardness/chamber pressure/velocity to determine loads that don't lead, but I could never get it to work, so I put my hardness tester away and just cast with my "approximate" wheel weight alloy, size my bullets to fit, and get little to no leading...

[bangerjim]

What is ES powder coating?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?209151-Powder-Coating-101-Electrostatic-Method

MANY on here are doing it with excellent results in pistoles and long guns as well! No leading, no grease, no lube, lots-o-fun!

bangerjim

['74 sharps]

What is ES powder coating?

For a 357 load save yourself some work and expense and tumble lube. Does not have to be a tumble lube design to tumble lube, as it will stick to any bullet.

[fredj338]

Many guys complain about leading & the TL designs, most calibers. I think the thin driving bands, mash together on firing & in affect give you a smooth slug riding the bore. It's a WAG, I shoot conventional lube groove bullets & am happy tumble lubing those or conventional lube/size, but I prefer lube/size. As to BHN for the 357smag, I am good with 11-12bhn for loads 1100fps-1300fps.
Yes bullet fit is the answer. I use pin gages to check the cyl throats. Too small & I open them up.

[hammer58]

Hammer58 welcome to CastBoolits,

You mentioned "When I first started casting, I made the mistake of using data from a jacketed bullet and used 7.0 gr of Unique." but I didn't see what load your using now. I've never been a fan of max doses of fast powder in mag cases, better results often come from a slower powder. With a fast powder & trying to get velocity up it's like whacking the boolit in the hieny with a sledge hammer & giving it all of it's energy all at once. You said the leading was just past the forcing cone at the beginning of the rifling & it's possible fast powder is part of the reason.

It's not necessarily using book loads for jacketed with cast boolits, I do it routinely with most handguns & many rifles with excellent results using the slowest recommended powder that will get me to velocity I'm looking for.

It's also not nearly as much how hard as it is how well it fits the firearm it's to be fired in. There is no need to shoot diamonds but there is for a boolit that fits.

Like Bill I am no fan of tumble lube boolits in mag cartridges but with leading at the beginning of the rifling it's probably not a lube issue. More likely a fast powder and/or fit issue.

Rick

Rick, you mention fast powders and slow powders. Your explanation certainly makes sense. How does Unique compare to Bullseye or maybe HP38 as far as burn rate? I have 50 rounds loaded with 6 grains of Unique, I will get out to the range in a few days to see how these do.

I went ahead and ordered a Lee .358 Lubrisizer for the TL boo lets. I may have to change sizers after further measurements of the bore slugs, but I figured .358 is a good place to start.

BTW, I have about a 1/4 pound of Unique left and I would like to finish it and not use it again. It is a very dirty powder and after an afternoon of shooting, this stainless gun is VERY difficult to clean. Takes longer to clean than ANY of my other guns.

[detox]

Wouldn't a "match" range rod be good enough to measure for barrel constriction? You could also check cylinder alignment...i doubt gun will pass cylinder alignment test using the Match version, but it may pass constriction test.

Heck it may pass both test.:grin:

[Bigslug]

WACO, I have slugged the barrel but I have not found a good way to measure the slug. This gun has 5 riflings simply using a micrometer will not work.

What you need is one of these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starrett-485-078-1-0001-Ratchet-Stop-Lock-Nut-V-Anvil-Micrometer-T485XRL-/111246170656?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19e6c9da20 Shop around. I found one on e-bay a few months back for about $70. It nicely solved the offset rifling angle - I wasn't having any luck with wrapping the boolits.

What you need is the 5-flute version. The 3-flute styles have a sharper angle on the V-anvil, like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micrometer-3-Fluted-1-15mm-V-Anvil-/290983643527?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43bffa0987 This won't work for offset, but will work for even numbers of lands and grooves - possibly better than a standard micrometer because you get three points of contact instead of just two.

[btroj]

Rick, you mention fast powders and slow powders. Your explanation certainly makes sense. How does Unique compare to Bullseye or maybe HP38 as far as burn rate? I have 50 rounds loaded with 6 grains of Unique, I will get out to the range in a few days to see how these do.

I went ahead and ordered a Lee .358 Lubrisizer for the TL boo lets. I may have to change sizers after further measurements of the bore slugs, but I figured .358 is a good place to start.

BTW, I have about a 1/4 pound of Unique left and I would like to finish it and not use it again. It is a very dirty powder and after an afternoon of shooting, this stainless gun is VERY difficult to clean. Takes longer to clean than ANY of my other guns.

Unique is much slower burning than HP38 or Bullseye. For mid range loads, say around 1000 fps in a mag case Unique works well. For true top end mag loads go with 2400 or H110 type powders.

Think of it as the difference between a long, slow push or a sharp shove. The burn rate tells you how fast the powder develops max pressure. The slower burners tend to be gentler to bullets and that is a good thing.

Low velocity load, fast burner. Mid range load, medium burn rate. Top velocity mag load, slow burner.

[cbrick]

Rick, you mention fast powders and slow powders. Your explanation certainly makes sense. How does Unique compare to Bullseye or maybe HP38 as far as burn rate? I have 50 rounds loaded with 6 grains of Unique, I will get out to the range in a few days to see how these do.

I went ahead and ordered a Lee .358 Lubrisizer for the TL boo lets. I may have to change sizers after further measurements of the bore slugs, but I figured .358 is a good place to start.

BTW, I have about a 1/4 pound of Unique left and I would like to finish it and not use it again. It is a very dirty powder and after an afternoon of shooting, this stainless gun is VERY difficult to clean. Takes longer to clean than ANY of my other guns.

HP-38 is a bit faster than Unique and Bullseye is considerably faster yet. Brad is correct, if you wish to push top end think 2400 or H-110/296 as powder choices. For powder puff loads the unique will work but still not my choice in magnum cartridges. As a side note, ball powders do not work well reduced, you'll notice in most loading manuals a narrow range between minimum and maximum charges with H-110, start at minimum and work up to the best accuracy at or near max listed charges.

Rick

[RobS]

After all the measuring is done on the firearm, pull a boolit and measure the base edge to see if it is still at its intended diameter. Just because it was once .358 doesn't mean it still is after seating and crimping.

[Down South]

You can get an idea of different burn rates from the attached chart. Many pouplar powders are listed.


I went ahead and ordered a Lee .358 Lubrisizer for the TL boo lets. I may have to change sizers after further measurements of the bore slugs, but I figured .358 is a good place to start.


See if you can push one of your boolits through the throats of your cylinder, or it's a loose fit, or too tight to push through the throats. Your throats is the first thing you need to size for or fit your boolits to.
What diameter Boolit is a snug fit for the throats?

[hammer58]

HP-38 is a bit faster than Unique and Bullseye is considerably faster yet. Brad is correct, if you wish to push top end think 2400 or H-110/296 as powder choices. For powder puff loads the unique will work but still not my choice in magnum cartridges. As a side note, ball powders do not work well reduced, you'll notice in most loading manuals a narrow range between minimum and maximum charges with H-110, start at minimum and work up to the best accuracy at or near max listed charges.

Rick

Rick, What would be your recommended loads be for mid-range .357 and .38 loads using the Lee 158gr TL boolit? I would like to try GC boolits but that will have to wait for a while.

[cbrick]

I'm probably not the best one to ask that. A 158 gr boolit is a light for caliber boolit for me, I use my 357 revolver for long range and use 180+ gr with upper end H-110 loads. If it can't knock over a 55 pound target at 200 meters it's no good for me. Bottom line, I don't have any mid-range loads with light boolits for the 357.

I did have a powder puff load with a 150 using Trail Boss in a Marlin 94 for plinking that worked well.

Sorry I can't be more help.

Rick

[hammer58]

Not a problem! Everyone on this thread has been a great help. I have gotten a lot of advise so I guess I will be forced to do a lot more trial and error. Oh well :wink:

[btroj]

For mid range loads with that bullet Unique is fine. Maybe up to 1000 fps or so, beyond that go to 2400 or H110.

[jmort]

Unique and Blue Dot are my favorites. 6 grains of Unique or 10 grains of Blue Dot for 158 grain boolit.. Short of 110/296/MP300 high end loads like Rick likes, Blue Dot will keep up with 2400 and 4227 and it is a great shotgun powder to boot. 10 grains of Blue dot and 158 grain boolit is plenty of gun. 6 grains of Unique will be around 1,000 fps or more and is a great all around shooting load.

[hammer58]

6b grs of unique is sounding better all the time for the .357. The only problem I have had with Unique is that the powder is so dirty. Takes a lot of time to get this stainless gun clean after shooting Unique

[jmort]

Unique will shoot cleaner at the higher end of it's useful range. I have not noticed any difficulty cleaning stainless revolvers used with Unique. What are you using to clean it with? Try Gunzilla or Frog Lube

[hammer58]

OK, It's been a few days but here is what I found out. I took the advise of a couple of guys on this thread and measured the throats of the gun and they all measured .358. I also tried using a strip of coke can wrapped around the slugs that I have from the barrel and got a measurement of .356. This didn't make sense so I found some .004 shim stock and tried the wrapping method again. The slugs then measured .366. Subtracted the thickness of the shim stock times 2 so I get .358 for the slug.

I am going to the range in a couple of weeks with some different loads with my boolits Lubrisized to .358 and see how it turns out.

Thanks for all of your suggestions and help!