Old Shotgun Loading Tools.

[DuncaninFrance]

I have just been given these along with some lead for casting my .457 balls. Anyone have any comments / info that would be of interest? I am sure that I have titled the first 2 correctly but the rest seem to me to be for adding the final card wad and rolling the end of the cartridges. Looks like I have 12,14 & 16ga.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/Duncaninfrance/IMG_8562W.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/Duncaninfrance/IMG_8567W.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/Duncaninfrance/IMG_8568W.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/Duncaninfrance/IMG_8569W.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/Duncaninfrance/IMG_8570W.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/Duncaninfrance/IMG_8571W.jpg

[Bent Ramrod]

Duncan,

That's a nice group of shotshell tools, especially if given as a premium for the purchase of lead:-D. There is no central reference in this country that I know of for the manufacturers of shotshell reloading tools; Lyman/Ideal and Bridgeport Gun Implement Co. were pretty much our main producers. Especially for the smaller hand-operated closers and crimpers you picture. They were all of a sort; and typically a lot less elaborate than your re-/decapper and the sidelever closer in the fifth photo down. The major exceptions were the later Lyman Star Crimpers, which were impressive pieces of hand-powered machinery. But most hand shotshell tools evolved toward a press-type arrangement rather than becoming a heavier-duty hand tool.

I get the impression from general reading that in Europe a lot of the gun makers had or made their own loading tools which they sold to their gun customers. Some even had their own proprietary cartridges that they loaded in their shops and sold.

I think I make out a ManuFrance label on your roll crimper in the bottom picture. Manufrance used to export shotguns to importers in this country, back in the '60's and early '70's if I recall. You could perhaps look for one of their catalogs and see what was offered in the loading tool line.

Hope this helps.

[Buckshot]

...............I think it was in an old Shooters Bible there was an article about shooting in England. They showed a tool exactly like your first and 3rd ones. Of course form follows function so that's not to say a tool for the same job made somewhere else wouldn't look the same.

Need to get those all cleaned up and put a nice coat of green or black epoxy paint on them and maybe some gold pinstripes!

..............Buckshot

[R.M.]

Ah Buckshot, you're so 70's. Pinstripes, really. Flames man, flames are in now. [smilie=1:

[DuncaninFrance]

Thanks Bent Ramrod, appreciate the input.
The First pic of a roll crimper is from 'Brevete S.G.D.G. Manufacture Francaise D'Armes et Cycles de St Etienne' and it is for 16g.
The Second is not marked but is 14g.
The Third is marked 'DG' and is 12g. The chromed label has all but come off so I can't see anymore of the makers name.
The last one is indeed from 'Manufrance (http://www.balistique-chasse.com/indexes/indexcata1.html) in St Etienne' and is also 14g.
I do intend to clean them up and 'restore' them and use the 12g ones if I can find some paper cartridges.

[Bent Ramrod]

Duncan,

If you can keep your eyes open for old catalogs and other paper goods related to gun stuff, you can get a lot of research done quickly sometimes. We are fortunate over here in having enough secondary literature in the form of handloading books dating back to the 1920's, to at least get a mention of what was available back then in order to start a search.

You might check on the Antique Reloading Tool Collectors' web site (I think it's www.antiquereloadingtools.org) and see if anybody there has a collection of European shotgun tools. I don't have much in my references relating to such things. My reproduction ALFA catalog of about 100 years ago has a couple examples of shotshell closers, like yours but not exactly so.

[crowbeaner]

Precision Reloading in South Dakota sells once fired Federal 2 3/4 inch paper hulls. They also sell the under and over shot cards you will need, as well as wads and components. Nice looking old tools; just don't use WD 40 on them; it gums things up after time. BPI in Corcoran MN sells odd gauge shells if you have the guns for them. CB.

[DuncaninFrance]

This page is from a reproduction of the ' Manufacture Française d'Armes & Cycles' catalogue for 1931. It has 792 pages of which the first 318 cover shooting and fishing. An altogether amazing book!

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/Duncaninfrance/MANUFRANCE.jpg

[DuncaninFrance]

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/Duncaninfrance/MANUFRANCE-71.jpg

[DuncaninFrance]

I got into this a bit deeper and took 5 brass12g cases to the range today to try.
Load:
5grams 3f BP.
30 grams No:7 shot
Winchester Large Pistol primer.
Need a pattern plate now and I can get serious about clays.
This is my mate Alain and his Baïkal Coach Gun we used to try them in.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/Duncaninfrance/IMG_8690web.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/Duncaninfrance/IMG_8701web.jpg

[Buckshot]

...............WOW! That looks like fun :-).

..............Buckshot

[Bent Ramrod]

Duncan,

You caught that first one perfectly, and in daylight, too.

"Blazing Guns" literally and figuratively!:mrgreen:

I hadn't realized that those loading tools were that current; over here we've mostly gone to press-type tooling. Lee has pretty much led the charge on this; it would be hard to compete economically with Lee tools and what they can do for the money. I got my 16 gauge Lee Load-All when I realized it cost only as much as three or four boxes of shells; i.e., it would pay for itself on one good day of dove shooting.

[TNsailorman]

Wow! I'd like to see that first photo in person on a night skeet range. Talk about lighting up the night. Thanks for the photos.

[floodgate]

Duncan in France:

As "Ramrod" says, the ARTCA website "Messages" Board has a topic on shotshell tools; we've been getting quite a few inquiries and displays like yours lately. I look forward to seeing you there. Lots of fascinating tools out there in shotgun-land; much under-appreciated.

Doug Elliott/"floodgate"

[DuncaninFrance]

I hadn't realized that those loading tools were that current;

If I were going to get into clay shooting again ( which would be difficult in this region of France because the local hunting associations only run them in the summer on a few weekends ) I would buy a Lee loadall but there is no need for brass cases of BP. Shot is also a possible problem. There are 2 manufacturers within a 2 hour drive where I can currently buy lead. Best deal is No:6 at 2.20€ per kilo, thats about $1.60 a pound.


ARTCA website "Messages" Board
Got a URL please Dough?

I anyone wants to get rid of some old 12g brass I would possibly be interested.

[HABCAN]

Duncan, that first pic seems to show quite a bit of gas leakage at the breech of that Baikal. Is it loose??? Are they ALL like that??? Don't seem right to this child.

[DuncaninFrance]

They seem to be a bit loose HABCAN! I had an O/U back in the UK and it did the same thing with Russian Cartridges.

That is a fairly new gun too but the chap who owns it is a bit paranoid about his shooting so if he is happy with it then it's OK with me too! He saw the pic as soon as I had taken it and before he shot another 3 :roll:

[floodgate]

Duncan:

As "Bent Ramrod" noted above, the ARTCA site is at <www.antiquereloadingtools.org>; click "Message" and scroll down to "Shotshell Tools". There are some others shown under the "inquiry" topics up aove. You will have to sign up to post, but we'd sure like to have you aboard. If you want to compare European to the older US hand tools, Abby at <www.cornellpubs.com> has good and affordable reprints of some of the old Ideal and BGI (Bridgeport Gun Implement - the major supplier of shotshell tools to the trade) catalogs and handbooks. I'd recommend Ideals No. 1, 5, 12 and 16 for good coverage of these.

Doug

[DuncaninFrance]

I am still having problems sealing the over shot wad in place. Can't find a good glue at the moment. Someone locally said they used to drill the sides of the mouth and insert matchsticks in a cross over the wad to retain it like this.


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/Duncaninfrance/BRASS-1-web.jpg

Anyone got any thoughts about this please?

[KCSO]

We always use to use water glass for sealing them and it did a good job. This is also called ??? Sodium Silicate ???. We use to get it at the hardware store for sealing eggs, but most druggists have it also. There are several outfits here in the States that sell crim dies for the brass shells too. The best glue i have found is Elmers titebond, but I don't know what they sell in your area. I had for many years till Ii gave it to a collector a full set of the loading tools you have pictures, everything but the Le Samson, but mine were all marked LaFrance and Thorson. I have loaded a lot of B/P shotshells with those tools.

[DuncaninFrance]

Thanks KC. I am still trying to find a supplier for Isinglass over here as it seems the best (and the original) sealer. I have found a Home Brew company in the UK that would ship some to me so I will probably order that.
Trouble is that when you ask for a product that is out of the ordinary here, the first question is usually "What do you want THAT for"? and it's difficult to explain sometimes!!

[MT Chambers]

Hot glue gun works real good on brass shotgun shells, just run a little bead around the edge of top wad.

[DuncaninFrance]

Good idea! Can't think of anything else the stuff sticks together !!!!

[DuncaninFrance]

Tried the glue gun and looks as though it works MT. Thanks for the info.
Have loaded some up to shoot a pattern plate tomorrow if it stops raining.

I went to Bordeaux yesterday and bought a shotgun with my Christmas money so I will have to clean my own now.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/Duncaninfrance/MAROCCHI-web.jpg

Still need some more brass if anyone has any to sell or trade.

[Bent Ramrod]

The problem of keeping wads tight was probably what caused the paper (and later plastic) shell to supersede the brass one. Old Winchester and other catalogs used to offer wads one gauge larger than the shell in question, and "pink edge" wads for use in brass shells. The pink was a dye for some kind of tacky substance that helped glue the wad in place. These expedients helped keep the recoil from loosening the charges of unfired rounds in the second barrel or magazine. Brass shells, I believe are still available from Fiocchi in Italy; I have a box of 10 of them in 16 gauge I'm going to try sometime.

Water glass is sodium silicate. You should be able to get it in 55-gal drums, if you need it. Isinglass is mica, generally in sheets big enough to be used as windows in sight glasses, furnace ports, etc.

I think the little bit of leakage in the breech of the Baikal is less a function of looseness than of the problems of obturating long, straight brass cases at low pressures. A little gas blows by before the shell swells to fill the chamber. The Cowboy Action folks are always complaining about this when they violate historical precedent by firing Colt .45 pistol cartridges with light loads in their rifles. The cases come out smudged and sooty on the outside. If they had a photographer with the catlike reflexes of Duncan standing by when they fired their '73's or '92's, I believe they'd get the same little puff of smoke out of the breech. It comes and goes so fast that the firer is unaware of it.

[DuncaninFrance]

I believe are still available from Fiocchi in Italy

Midway are advertising Magtech in the UK at £16.97 per 25 + p&p. Thats about $34! Magtech are offering them at about $19 per 25!!

I can get them at Midway Germany because the UK shop won't sent to France!
They want $45 + p&p for the shells

Midway US want $19.95 but again, wont ship to France.

As far as I can see I can't get them in France

[dromia]

Duncan, try Buffalo Arms they are stocking the Magtec brass $17.39US for a box of 25 12guage.

I deal with them regularly and are a good company, they ship Fedex so stuff here in 3days. Down side is you always get hit with customs.

The site is here:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,314.html

[DuncaninFrance]

Thanks A. Didn't see you round the back there!!