BHN Proof Blocks

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Does anyone know where I might get some BHN proof blocks,( certified samples of BHN 4 to BHN 40)? I'm in the process of developing a conversion chart from Rockwell HRH to Brinell. Charts from Wilson and others only go down to BHN53.

Been spending the weekend with my new Rockwell tester, and found that my lots of Lino, Monotype, and Lyman #2 are all over the place, using a 1/2" ball & 60K load. Even my "pure" lead varies. This especially applies to age hardening, I've had to remelt and cast samples in stainless 1/8 cup coffee measures. It would be nice to have samples I could rely on, when my 1/8" penetrator arrives.
Morgan

[shotstring]

I have never heard of nor seen any. But would sure be interested in a few as well to better calibrate my lead hardness tester. Think several others would value a few for the same reason. Can we maybe get someone to make us up some sets as a "group buy" item possibly? I certainly like the thought of it if it didn't get too terribly pricey.

[shotstring]

Nevermind. Mind meltdown I guess. After even briefly thinking it over, testing on a lead hardness tester such as Cabinetree would destroy the Proof Block after a few tests, and being soft enough an alloy to test would mean that aging and other uncontroled conditions would also affect the hardness of the Proof Block. Sooooo....is a soft Proof Block to test BHN even feasable???

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Shotstring,
I don't know how large a penetrator dent the Crabtree tester makes. With Rockwell, the depressions are small enough to be able to use the test block many times. These are of course, harder metals, not susceptible to flowing or age hardening, as lead is.
This tendency of lead based alloys, can be overcome by recasting the sample metal into new test blocks, and testing as soon as they cool to room temperature.
I find a stainless 1/8 cup coffee measure WITH TAPERED SIDES, a perfect mold for these blocks, due to,its smooth bottom, as compared to say, a cast iron muffin pan.
Morgan

[montana_charlie]

due to,its smooth bottom
There are times when a smooth bottom sits right there at the top of my list of priorities...

Lino, Monotype, and Lyman #2 are all over the place, using a 1/2" ball & 60K load.
That is 60 thousand pounds of pressure?
Will you use the same force when you get the 1/8 inch penetrator?

CM

[monadnock#5]

Yes, what you want is available. I'll make a note and get the name of the manufacturer and/or supplier when I'm at work tonight. The blocks are ~3" in diameter and ~1/2" thick. At work we calibrate on the 30N scale and convert to RC. For our purposes we are required to take 8 hits on the block. The first 3 are throwaways, the last 5 are for record. The hits have to be 2-1/2 diameters apart, otherwise you get a false high reading. Too close to the edge gives a false low reading. The tolerance is given on the block, as in plus or minus 1.0 @ 72.5. I don't know what they cost, but be prepared for a good dose of sticker shock. The blocks we use are laboratory grade. The supplier might carry a grade that doesn't have to stand the scrutiny of a NADCAP audit however. I'll let you be the one to find out.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Charlie, The major loads used in Rockwell testing are 60, 100,& 150 Kilograms. Rockwell differs from Brinell testing in that Brinell measures the diameter of the indentation, and Rockwell measures the depth.
There are various scales that use a mixture of load weights and penetrator diameters, including the diamond "Brale" point, used at 150KG. in the well-known "C" scale (HRC). Other than the 120º diamond "Brale" point, all the other penetrators are steel or carbide balls ranging from1/16"(the standard) to 1/2" in dia. The softer the material, and the larger the diameter and lighter the load used.
All Rockwell results have to have a letter before the number to show which scale was used.
For lead, I'll be using 1/8" at 60 KG. This is the Rockwell "H" scale (HRH).

monadnock#5, Thanks, I'll only need a few, the results should be linear.

Morgan

[crossfireoops]

Interesting read, this thread......I've made an inquiry to Bill Ferguson about feasability of running some "Test Grade" high purity "Test Blocks", though I'm more inclined to call them
"Coupons" ( I guess a career welding gives you funny notions) .
I've made up a "Flask Mold" that casts a very uniform, flat sided coupon, ....to use with one of Cabine tree's testers. No handles required, and a simple c- clamp to close. Man, once you get onto using it, the results are really repeatable.

I reckon that very flat, and parallel sided is the ticket for fine uniform results.

I had the notion of having a carpentry outfit rout out some wood storage boxes, ..........similar to one that would be used to corral gage blocks and pins and such........."Mis-filing" a pin gage cost me about an hour's search time, just last week.

If "Antimony Man" is amenable to helping with formulation, I'd be interested in pursuing this....it might just be one of the more practical assets one could add to his casting arsenal, ....in this age of ever escalating alloy prices, and indeterminate sourcing.

If interest resounds, I can do a photo shoot of my own lashup, and post it.

GTC

[montana_charlie]

For lead, I'll be using 1/8" at 60 KG. This is the Rockwell "H" scale (HRH)
I see.
Your "60K" meant grams, not pounds. Well...that changes my perception, a bit.
CM

[Woodtroll]

Crossfireoops, I've been meaning to ask Mr. Ferguson this same question for a couple years now (since I got my Cabine Tree tester), and just never have done it. I would be interested in a set as well, if he is willing to set up a package of small quantities of different alloys.

[floodgate]

I raised this question with Bill Fergusion, maybe 10 years back. He sent me small pigs of certified pure lead and of linotype, and a neat little ashtray in the form of a cast iron frying pan about 3" across, to make into what he called a "planchet" mould. I chucked it up, open side out, in my Smithy 3-jaw and machined the inside bottom clean and smooth. His instructions were to clamp one planchet of each material face-to-face with a ball bearing in between, squeeze in a vise unti I got a good indentation, and use the standard formula (which I don't have handy) to determine the relative hardness and translate into BHN. Then, I could take an "unknown" sample against the lead and/or against the linotype, do the same, and determine its BHN. I got one of those neat optical comparators with interchangeable scale reticles from MSC (but a cheap - $10 or so - "linen tester" would work equally well) to measure the indentations. Then I got sidetracked and never got back to it - but I still have the sample pigs, mould and comparator around somewhere. Gotta dig them out and give it a try.

floodgate

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Floodgate, that's the way I've always done the test. I made a casting of pure lead, and the sample to be tested, in a muffin pan, and pressed them together in a vise with a steel ball between them. I then measured the diameter of the impressions with a dial caliper and magnifier. The formula is: 5x(P/S)sq. The diameter of the pure lead dent, divided by the sample dent, squared, the result multiplied by five. Sorry I can't type it in mathematically with this keyboard.
Anyway, while accurate, this takes too long, I'd much rather use the Rockwell tester, and need accurate smples to set up a chart.
Morgan

[Buckshot]

..............When I made and sold my lead hardness testers I bought what was labeled 'Labratory Grade Pure Lead". It had a list of impurities in PPM on the label which all totaled out to a tiny fraction of the total weight. I figured that was pure enough :-) It was in very fine grains so I melted it to use for calibrating the test pressue on the tester's body.

................Buckshot

[monadnock#5]

http://www.instron.us/wa/acc_catalog/prod_list.aspx?cid=1141&cname=Rockwell%20Test%20Blocks

OK Mr. Astorbilt, I do believe this link will take you where you want to go.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

No, Mr. Monadnock, I'm familiar with the Instron company, They only sell test blocks for calibrating your tester, not metal samples to find out where they read on particular scales. Thanks anyway. There's a company called Element sales, that sells samples of most of the elements on the periodic table, in pieces about the size of a checker. I suppose I could order lead, tin and zinc, and extrapolate from there. Their site seems to be down now, but If memory serves me, the price for this piece of lead was about $15.
Morgan

[Morgan Astorbilt]

This is my "new" antique Model 2-A Rockwell tester. It's their first model, probably made before 1920. Waiting for Wilson to get back to me with the date of mfg. It works exactly like the new ones, just a weight system and dial indicator.
Morgan

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/100_1784.jpg

[Woodtroll]

Has anyone heard back from Mr. Ferguson about these blocks or small batches? I'll ask him myself, but hate to bother him again if someone's already followed up.

Y'all take care! Regan

[alamogunr]

A couple of years ago I purchased some samples of "pure" lead, Lyman #2 and linotype from Mr. Ferguson. I figured his alloys were close enough to the listed hardness of these 3 alloys for my purposes. They have turned out to be close enough and by using them, I have been able to refine my technique using the Cabine Tree tester to get consistent results with it. I'm not sure this would be sufficient for calibrating the Rockwell machine.

John
W. TN

[Woodtroll]

Yep, that's what I wanted them for, too- to check the "calibration" of my Cabine Tree tester. I thought this was a very good idea, hoping to turn it into something worthwhile for Mr. Ferguson, but I guess most folks are content with what they've got.

Thanks, ya'll, take care! Regan

[crossfireoops]

Yep, that's what I wanted them for, too- to check the "calibration" of my Cabine Tree tester. I thought this was a very good idea, hoping to turn it into something worthwhile for Mr. Ferguson, but I guess most folks are content with what they've got.

Thanks, ya'll, take care! Regan

Bill's outta' town, I'll run all this by him, and get him to study it, when he returns......

I think it's a great project........

GTC

[Woodtroll]

Sounds great, sir, I appreciate your work!

[4sfed]

Does anyone know where I might get some BHN proof blocks,( certified samples of BHN 4 to BHN 40)? I'm in the process of developing a conversion chart from Rockwell HRH to Brinell. Charts from Wilson and others only go down to BHN53.

Been spending the weekend with my new Rockwell tester, and found that my lots of Lino, Monotype, and Lyman #2 are all over the place, using a 1/2" ball & 60K load. Even my "pure" lead varies. This especially applies to age hardening, I've had to remelt and cast samples in stainless 1/8 cup coffee measures. It would be nice to have samples I could rely on, when my 1/8" penetrator arrives.
MorganThis is great! I've been searching for a conversion chart with the same disappointing results. Like you, I ordered the 1/8 indenter which should arrive later this week, but that still doesn't give me any way to convert my readings to BHN.

I believe the reason you can't find proof blocks for Brinell hardness is because the various parts of the test are calibrated seperately . . . the applied load and the microscope (comparator). If they are accurate, the calculation for BHN will be accurate. The Rockwell hardness tester is integrated so the hardness number is a direct reading making the standard test block a quick way to check the overall accuracy of the machine.

Jim

[4sfed]

It would be nice to have samples I could rely on, when my 1/8" penetrator arrives.
MorganMorgan,

Did you get your 1/8" indenter yet? Mine arrived today . . . tested a Missouri Bullet Company bullet that was supposed to be 22 HBN . . . still too soft for the H scale. Looks like it's going to require a 1/4" indenter.

-Jim

[TravisB]

4sfed,
I like the Bonneville car. I have dreams of a diesel powered streamliner. I went for the first time in 2001 and will be back!
TravisB

[4sfed]

4sfed,
I like the Bonneville car. I have dreams of a diesel powered streamliner. I went for the first time in 2001 and will be back!
TravisBJoin us in 2008. We skipped 2007 because the salt was too soft, but will be there in August with a better aero package . . . best run was 221 mph in G/BGMS (2 liter/Blown Gas Modified Sports).
http://www.autocomponenti.com/sound_files/mrr.asf
http://www.autocomponenti.com/sound_files/warmup.wmv

-Jim

[Morgan Astorbilt]

JIm, Somehow missed your post until tonight. I've got the 1/8" indentor, and here are some of the test results. All samples were tested ten min. after casting, these are averages of five tests, the spreads were all less than .5, most dead on.

Pure lead...34.5
Lyman #2...49.0
Lino...52.5
Lead from X-ray shields...42.3
Lead from came(stained glass windows)...41.0
Lead from medical isotope shields.....49.1 ??? I thought they were supposed to be pure lead.

Haven't had the machine checked out yet, these results are only comparative.
Morgan

[4sfed]

JIm, Somehow missed your post until tonight. I've got the 1/8" indentor, and here are some of the test results. All samples were tested ten min. after casting, these are averages of five tests, the spreads were all less than .5, most dead on.

Pure lead...34.5
Lyman #2...49.0
Lino...52.5
Lead from X-ray shields...42.3
Lead from came(stained glass windows)...41.0
Lead from medical isotope shields.....49.1 ??? I thought they were supposed to be pure lead.

Haven't had the machine checked out yet, these results are only comparative.
MorganMorgan,

These were all 1/8" indenter and 60 Kgf load? How about trading some samples to compare machines? I have some wheel weights . . . clip-on and tape weights, and some Missouri Bullet Company semi-wadcutters. PM me and we can trade shipping addresses.

-Jim

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Jim, Yes, and Yes. Sent you a PM.
Morgan

[4sfed]

Jim, Yes, and Yes. Sent you a PM.
MorganMorgan,

Sent you a PM with my address. I also contacted Wilson Instruments and the sales rep. volunteered to test several samples for me, at a certified lab, to determine which Rockwell scale would be best. I cast up samples of wheel weights . . . both clip-on and tape weights, and melted samples of Missouri Bullet Company bullets, both hard (18 BHN) and soft (12 BHN) for him to test. Will send them off later today.

-Jim

[MissouriBullet]

Morgan,

Did you get your 1/8" indenter yet? Mine arrived today . . . tested a Missouri Bullet Company bullet that was supposed to be 22 HBN . . . still too soft for the H scale. Looks like it's going to require a 1/4" indenter.

-Jim

Actually, we at Missouri Bullet Company don't offer any bullets in 22 BHN. Never did. The hardest bullet we make for off the shelf sales is 18 BHN. We can go harder, softer, whatever. But we haven't done any 22's.

Brad

[randyrat]

I hate to cut in here but, isen't there another way to test what you have by temprature, heating to a point and measuring it how long it takes to solidify... of course you need a good thermometer. I swear i read this somewhere. If i find it i'll give you the infor. I beleive it was for testing if the tin in your lino was all burned out.

[randyrat]

I found it! Look in CAST PICS, click LINKS, scroll down to ANTIMONY MAN, look for the highlighted "THERMOMETER" he even has a pamplet on this subject
****Easily test for metal purity, tin -lead, as well as eutectic specification alloys.......****** CAST PICS has a lot of info/ links/articles on it. Its a great benifit for us to use.

[4sfed]

Actually, we at Missouri Bullet Company don't offer any bullets in 22 BHN. Never did. The hardest bullet we make for off the shelf sales is 18 BHN. We can go harder, softer, whatever. But we haven't done any 22's.

Brad

My mistake . . . the boxes are marked 18 BHN for major power factor. :killingpc The mind is the first to go.

-Jim

[4sfed]

I hate to cut in here but, isen't there another way to test what you have by temprature, heating to a point and measuring it how long it takes to solidify... of course you need a good thermometer. I swear i read this somewhere. If i find it i'll give you the infor. I beleive it was for testing if the tin in your lino was all burned out.
Of course . . . Brinell is the standard for soft metals, and there are many inexpensive hardness testers sold by the likes of Brownell's, Midway and others. In my case, I have a Wilson hardness tester and am looking for a correlation between the Brinell one of the Rockwell hardness scales.

-Jim

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Haven't been the board for a few days. I've been unsuccessful finding a 1/4" ball penetrator at a decent(cheap) price, and before I spend the $180 MSC gets for them, I want to be sure it will do the job. I turned one today, just a plug with a 1/4" hemispherical end, out of O-1 steel, testing with a 1/8" radius gage, as I turned and polished it. Heated it red hot, and quenched in oil. Will begin testing this weekend.
Morgan

[Nueces]

Morgan, please let us know how it works. Also, what you used to polish it after hardening.

I've been using the LBT tester, haven't needed to make a penetrator, so haven't done any thinking about it. Buy, why wouldn't a tooling ball or ball bearing work?

Mark

[4sfed]

Morgan, please let us know how it works. Also, what you used to polish it after hardening.

I've been using the LBT tester, haven't needed to make a penetrator, so haven't done any thinking about it. Buy, why wouldn't a tooling ball or ball bearing work?

MarkMark,
You're a genius . . . http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=2549 . . . I can buy a 1/2" tooling ball from McMaster-Carr for less than $20 and it even has the right shank diameter for my Wilson hardness tester.

I got test results from the samples I sent to Wilson Instruments. They recommend a 1/2" ball and 60 Kg load (R scale) for the hardness range we are using.

Summary: (average of 5 tests per sample)

clip-on wheel weights - 101.7
Vance Bullet Co. - 101.7
Missouri Bullet Co. 12 BHN - 92.9
tape-on wheel weights - 59.4

[Morgan Astorbilt]

WOW! Didn't even know these existed. Are they used like toolmakers buttons? Too bad the 1/4" size doesn't come with a 1/4" shank.
Jim, you'll have to grind the set screw flat, they're too hard to file. I'm ordering the 1/2", I'm sure the ball is truer than the one I made.

Mark, I initially polish hardened steel with wet or dry paper, starting with 180, and going up to 600. I finish on a polishing wheel with a grey compound meant for steel, I think it contains silicon carbide.

With these balls, I did the wet or dry polishing on the lathe, before hardening. I backed the paper up with stiff felt, then hardened by heating to red hot with a torch, no long enough to decarburize the surface, then quenching in oil, which which gave it a black oxide finish, which I removed on my 10"x2" hard polishing wheel
Morgan

[Nueces]

Hey, kewl, glad to have helped. I've never used tooling balls, but I like to page through the catalogs just to see what's there. Sorta like browsing the hardware store, ideas seem to germinate when amongst the little bits.

And, thanks Morgan, for the polishing details. I like to learn stuff from guys who are doing it.

Mark

[4sfed]

WOW! Didn't even know these existed. Are they used like toolmakers buttons? Too bad the 1/4" size doesn't come with a 1/4" shank.
Jim, you'll have to grind the set screw flat, they're too hard to file. I'm ordering the 1/2", I'm sure the ball is truer than the one I made.
Morgan,

I'll order a 1/4" and 1/2" tooling ball tomorrow and a package of 1/4" hard steel balls. Don't know if I'll make a sleeve for the tooling ball or a holder for the steel ball. The flat on the shank will be easily handled by the surface grinder.

Morgan, I received your samples yesterday. Will be ready to go as soon as I get the tooling balls.

-Jim