who has an interest in making sights

[stephenj]

ive long been a fan of the old black powder rifles , one i like in particular is the martini henry. but one thing that has always perturbed me is the sights , except for the barrel sights a person has no real options for a long range sight of the sort used on the sharps and other bpcr rifles .

that is what i am looking to change , i want to find someone who might have an interest in making a long range sight for a martini henry .
one problem with the idea is .. the rifle has no tang so it is side of the reciever mount only . preferably without permantly modifying the rifle

what i would like is something that is mechanicaly adjustable for both windage and elevation with the ability to give fairly repeatable sight settings out to say 600 yards , and look somewhat period correct .

below you will see what i whipped up with a hack saw , file, drill, tap and junk .
while it does work quite nicely for shooting at a fixed distance once zero'd ... it lacks in the repeatability department .

so if you might have an interest in taking on the challenge of making a sight i'd love to hear from you , as i bet a whole bunch of other martini shooters would as well .

heck if you even have so much as a hair brained idea speak up and share your thoughts

9150591506

[W.R.Buchanan]

If you do a little research you will find that Martinis were extensively used in target shooting. There are already sights out there which would be period correct.

Parker Hale was one of the MFG's in England.

I think yours is kind of cool! Maybe some fine thread screws would enhance the design a little.

Randy

[Frank46]

Actually the scratch built sight you made for your martini is almost a dead ringer for the MUES target sight used on martinis. Try google and see what pops up. Another suggestion is to get a tang sight and then inlet a piece of steel from where the rear butt socket of the action is and epoxy it in place then drill the two holes for the sight. One would be in the butt socket and the other would be in the piece of steel you did in the wood. Frank

[stephenj]

i have looked at the parker-hale sights and a whole bunch of the bsa sights .
the biggest issue with all of them is ... finding one
and then its finding one for a large frame martini .. most of the target sights are for the smaller frame rifles and or require adding new holes somewhere on the rifle , while mine is by no means a pristine example of a mk4 i dislike the idea of permanant modifications very very much .

heres an example i found over on gunboards that i'd love to have and was the inspiration for my crude copy ...
and to the right a bsa no 9

none of these sights are easy to find , and when found easily go beyond the means of my meager funds .



9151891519

[stephenj]

why thank you frank , i was completely ignorant of the mues sights , lol now i have to spend some google foo time

[kens]

It is amazing to me how much technology and CNC machining has gone into modern gun manufacturing, and yet so many of them have crummy sights.
It is as if the modern gun makers strive to put out a gun for the masses of people, but install crappy sights. I have handled some guns that are otherwise fine articles, and yet the sights make the whole thing worthless to hit something.

[W.R.Buchanan]

kens: all modern guns have optical sights :holysheep Don't they?

Randy

[Bullshop Junior]

I would talk to a local machine shop. I have machinist friends here that are big gun nuts, and I have helped them build some pretty cool sights. If I had the gun here, I'm sure we could whip something up in a few hours. Problem is, these guys don't work for free, and unless you have a machine to do all the work, they are spendy to have made.

[johnson1942]

for one of my black powder guns i bought a tip up 1400 yard open sight. on the open part i silver soldered a small washer on it to make it a ghost ring sight for my old eyes. the notch in the tip up was filed down so it wasnt so deep. it works real good for me that way. in fact all my open sights have been converted by me to ghost rings. they are like a large peep that is fast and easy to use. one just needs to learn how to silversolder which i did many years ago.

[Frank46]

After looking at your pic the first thing that popped into my head was the MUES target sight and how much yours looked like it. On various gun forums I have seen martinis with redfield olympic and international rear sights. I even have a flat adaptor for either one somewhere in my stash. Been thinking of getting a beatup martini rebarreled to 50-70. Try ebay or gunbroker to get an idea of what the Mues looks like. You came pretty darn close, especially with the mounting plate. Frank

[Bullshop Junior]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/26/eqa9y8yv.jpg

Lots of people also just mount tang sights to the wood.

[stephenj]

frank
the mounting plate is realy a no brainer .. without drilling and tapping there is no other options but to use those two holes .
and i do like the MUES sight, it looks to be just about perfect for my needs and easily adaptable .
but alas its like the parker hales and the bsa's ... nearly impossible to find one for sale .

i have thought about the olympic sights , i dont care for how most of them would look on the rifle , and most of them wont provide enough elevation to go from 100 yards out to 600

bs jr
a local machine shop wouldnt be a bad idea ... except for what they would have to charge to make a one off item like this puts it way beyond my means or would be willing to spend if i did have the funds .
and altering the old girl is just out of the question , she survived 140 years intact and unbubba'd
this long i'm not going to change that now .

maybe next year santa will bring me a mill

[oldred]

I would like to take a moment to commend you on your ingenuity and the sight you did make considering what you had to work with!

[JMtoolman]

Stephenj, send me your e-mail and I will send you a picture of one I made for an Enfield that would work very well for the Martini.
Best regards, the toolman.

[stephenj]

oldred

why thank you sir , i can be somewhat creative and handy at times .
but then i think almost all of us here are , i think the urge to experiment and make things is what makes us gravitate towards reloading and casting as a hobby .
my biggest problem at the moment is the lack of tools . i had a fire about 2 years ago now that took my garage and one wall of my house .
i lost all of my tools and reloading/casting gear and its been a slow process even getting back the basic tools every fellow should have .
i'm in the middle of loading .45 colts right now .. i'll post you a pick of my very basic reloading outfit this evening .

and a pm inbound jmtoolman

[kopperl]

Give me a reply off line. Maybe I can help with the lost gear.

usmcret@live.com

Bill

[mikeym1a]

This is neat! I did google the Mues sight and got this;

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=34537

and one of the sights pictured is very much like your scratch built unit. Neat stuff!:-D

[stephenj]

hey bill i am going to send you an email .
but i do have the basics pretty well covered , once you learn how to make do you would be very suprised to learn what you can do without .

i have been pretty fortunate , i have managed to get the basic gear and replace most of the die sets and molds i need to keep shooting , with a few exceptions all i realy lack is the luxury items of reloading .. i realy focused on getting die's molds and brass over everything else .

but here is what i just used to load up 200 rounds of .45 colt for tomarow . you can just make out my new lubsizer behind the other stuff 91655

[Von Gruff]

The set of pics from JMtoolman

here are some pictures of the sight I put on a #4, but the idea will work on the martini also. A different side plate would have to be fabricated, and the sight is simply attached to the sight with the two original screws. The one I used is an old Redfield sight that I picked up somewhere in a gun show. I don't remember if I had to mill the back flat or it came that way. It's been a couple of years ago. Simple in either case. The base plate is 1/8 in thick, and just drilled and tapped for the two screws. No alteration of the Martini should be necessary

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Rifles/sighting%20systems/unnamed_zpsaaaf7544.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/Rifles/sighting%20systems/unnamed_zpsaaaf7544.jpg.html)
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Rifles/sighting%20systems/unname_zps048af0dd.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/Rifles/sighting%20systems/unname_zps048af0dd.jpg.html)
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Rifles/sighting%20systems/unnam_zps43f3c31f.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/Rifles/sighting%20systems/unnam_zps43f3c31f.jpg.html)
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Rifles/sighting%20systems/unna_zpscec45371.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/Rifles/sighting%20systems/unna_zpscec45371.jpg.html)

[stephenj]

it gives me a few idea's , i do like that window with the pointer .
my only issue with a sight like that is they dont provide me with enough elevation to get me out to 600 yards with my pop gun loads

tomarow after i go out and shoot a bit i think i am going to stop at the scrap yard and see what i can find for materials and get creative with a file.

i like the simple elevation and windage adjustments .. i think a person with a bi of effort could recreate this without machine tools

[Frank46]

Well if you really want to get creative, while at the scrap yard see if they have a piece of 2" or 3" angle iron and make up a scope mount for it using the two holes like you did with the home made sight. Get a el cheapo weaver base for the marlin 336 and some weaver rings and away you go. May have to set it up high enough so you can load your martini. Saw one made out of brass angle iron and using the holes that you did. Sort of a retro look. Or steampunk design. Frank

[Von Gruff]

If you wanted to look to simple then something like the Lyman 21might be easier to fabricate.
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Rifles/sighting%20systems/RSbig_0401_470F_zps907a8444.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/Rifles/sighting%20systems/RSbig_0401_470F_zps907a8444.jpg.html)

[Von Gruff]

This is a lovely and unobtrusive e home made sight
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Rifles/sighting%20systems/2da3636e2396044e82636e29a30316d9fced7be4_zpsf08bed 87.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/Rifles/sighting%20systems/2da3636e2396044e82636e29a30316d9fced7be4_zpsf08bed 87.jpg.html)
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Rifles/sighting%20systems/463166220e8e6dad1b2c74566ef1cda4a75ed2f1_zpscc40ee 0e.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/Rifles/sighting%20systems/463166220e8e6dad1b2c74566ef1cda4a75ed2f1_zpscc40ee 0e.jpg.html)
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Rifles/sighting%20systems/41126642d3024869608ac2110b0d2b47c87e8f0c_zpsbe697f c4.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/Rifles/sighting%20systems/41126642d3024869608ac2110b0d2b47c87e8f0c_zpsbe697f c4.jpg.html)

From this link http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/7786#.Ur0aL-mIqP8

[Any Cal.]

That last sight is beautiful! Never seen the Lyman 21 before either, neat idea.

[stephenj]

von gruff

funny you mention the lyman 21 , i went shooting today with a friend and he showed me a pic of that exact same sight in a blue book of gun values today .

i do have an idea in mind and i searched the local scrap yard today for some raw materials .
i am going to sit down in the morning and do a drawing and see how it looks on paper . if my scanner works i'll post it on here .
however what i have in mind may be a bit beyond whats possible with a drill , hacksaw . grinder and files but it never hurts to try

[Von Gruff]

I have a bit of a project going at the moment after I bought an 1879/96 MKlll Martini Enfielld in a condition that basically used the action only and have had to go from there with making a new stock and sourcing the necessary parts from far and near.
I have used a spare stem from a bolt mounted Rigby sight and made a base that is soft soldered to the rear flat of the open sight base. It is a fixed sight but gives old eyes a little help over the open rear blade. The forestock is unshaped as the finishing is being held up for the want of the nosecap but you will get the idea. May look at the mod 21 type if Stephen comes up with a copyable plan for a hobbyist to make without access to shop tools. I have some ideas along that path myself but may be some time away yet.
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0840_zps7b70fdee.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0840_zps7b70fdee.jpg.html)
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0834_zps1e71f4b3.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0834_zps1e71f4b3.jpg.html)
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0839_zps497dee40.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0839_zps497dee40.jpg.html)

[eljefeoz]

Looking good, Von G.

[stephenj]

we had some fair weather over the weekend so i did not get any progress made on the sight i had in mind .
but after sitting down this morning with a t square and some paper i learned that my idea just is not do able . so it is back to the drawing board .
i am stuck on having mechanical elevation adjustment at the minimum .. preferably windage as well .
i guess these are the problems we face when you have corvette dreams and a cavalier budget

[John Allen]

This is a lovely and unobtrusive e home made sight
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Rifles/sighting%20systems/2da3636e2396044e82636e29a30316d9fced7be4_zpsf08bed 87.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/Rifles/sighting%20systems/2da3636e2396044e82636e29a30316d9fced7be4_zpsf08bed 87.jpg.html)
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Rifles/sighting%20systems/463166220e8e6dad1b2c74566ef1cda4a75ed2f1_zpscc40ee 0e.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/Rifles/sighting%20systems/463166220e8e6dad1b2c74566ef1cda4a75ed2f1_zpscc40ee 0e.jpg.html)
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Rifles/sighting%20systems/41126642d3024869608ac2110b0d2b47c87e8f0c_zpsbe697f c4.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/Rifles/sighting%20systems/41126642d3024869608ac2110b0d2b47c87e8f0c_zpsbe697f c4.jpg.html)

From this link http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/7786#.Ur0aL-mIqP8

This one sure is a beauty. It complements the gun.

[Von Gruff]

I am just away to have a shot with the sight I made over the last few days and is the simplified mod 21 sight. I only have simple workshop tools so making something more complicated is beyond my tool capability.
I started with a light aluminium sheet to make the pattern.
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0863_zpsfb6f8a03.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0863_zpsfb6f8a03.jpg.html)

Used an old worn burr as the base for the aperture and a piece of 3x1 1/2 box for the plate
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0859_zps6c50f0f6.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0859_zps6c50f0f6.jpg.html)

tidied things a bit
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0861_zps40f81b97.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0861_zps40f81b97.jpg.html)

modified some bolt heads to a less intrusive shallow round head and replaced the action axis pins
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0869_zps462a81db.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0869_zps462a81db.jpg.html)

Drilled and filed away on the plate. Went to the local garage and used their tap to thread the plate for the front pin and gas to heat and bend in the appropriate place. Used a piece of brass to make a locking lever but still have a bit of tidying on it yet.
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0870_zps07ec8438.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0870_zps07ec8438.jpg.html)
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0868_zps173edfec.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0868_zps173edfec.jpg.html)

Still have to make a tab washer that will lock into the top pin and locate into the sliding channel to make the elevation marker but for now think I have what I need for a no cost (almost) adjustable aperture sight. Not pretty but practical and while there is 3/4 elevation adjustment I don't see me shooting to long distance with a 212gn cast bullet at a projected 1800fps.

[Any Cal.]

It would be useful if someone could post a couple of measurements for critical points, like the location of the pin holes off of bore center-line, and width of reciever.

I dreamed up a neat little windage and peep portion, but don't know exactly what is needed for the mounting and elevation side.

[Old School Big Bore]

In reference to the first sight, it looks like a great example of ingenuity. I agree with changing the sight-disc bolt to fine thread, and I'd also tap the plate it screws into so it'd only need one locknut. The latter design is very elegant, simple and rugged-looking.

[stephenj]

looking good von gruff , i like the brass for the locking lever , nice touch .
i admit to being of a more engineer type .. i have no real sense of style or class to make things look purty.

as to the fine thread windage bolt ... well i just did not have any handy so i used what i had.
but there is a reason i did not just tap the plate and use one locking nut .
i was not able to be sure i was going to get the peep hole exactly in the center line of the screw .
if it was not centered i would have an elevation change unless i limited the adjustment to a full turn of the screw when adjusting windage .
even if centered properly had i tapped the plate i would have been limited to half turns to fine tune the windage .
so by using two lock nuts i can fine tune to my hearts content ... though a fine thread screw would be a touch easier to use .

but as i said my only issue with my first attempt is lack of repeatability , it does work rather well
this is the first target i shot using it .... the drawn in square is where i had a black aiming spot stapled to the paper , it was roughly 4 inches square .
200 yards using that sight and a pop gun load of 11 grains of unique under a .472 dia 480 grain bullet ... i had had doubts of the load being fast enough to keep the bullet stabilized out to 200 yards , but it worked ok

92073

[stephenj]

anycal

getting you the receiver width is easy enough ... but as to getting any measerments based off of the bore center line ... that i'm not so sure of , but i am very happy to try .
i'm just not 100% sure on exactly what you want measured from where

[Any Cal.]

Just some way of knowing what vertical and horizontal is in relation to the pin holes. With just two I imagine center to center on them would be good, but then how do they relate to the rest of the receiver?

[stephenj]

ok ... now keep in mind these are just rough measurements , and forgive my poor artistic ability .

the receiver width measures 1.285 on my rifle .

line A is receiver lenght 4.575
line B is center to center on the pins 3.240
line C center of the right hand hole to the top of the reciever .265
line D is the center of the hole to the bottom of the receiver .340
line E is from center of the hole to the front of the receiver .675
line F is from center of the hole to the rear of the horn .

i forgot to draw it in but the right side pin hole measures from center to the bottom of the receiver 2.030

please keep in mind these are no where near exact measurements


92122

[Von Gruff]

On the home straight now
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0881_zps9eb76181.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0881_zps9eb76181.jpg.html)
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0877_zpsfbeff2b6.jpg (http://s667.photobucket.com/user/VonGruff/media/303%20Martini%20Enfield/Photo0877_zpsfbeff2b6.jpg.html)

Just need the acids now to do a rust blue, finish sand and oil the forestock, then I can call it finished. I used .312 as the BC, extrapolating from this page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?94638-Cast-Bullet-Ballistic-Coefficent-Table where the 180gn 30 cl bullet is .293 on the Hornady ballistics calculator http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator - so with an 1800fps velocity from a 3/4 above bore centre sight line I need 3/4in elevation adjustment from my sight for 1000yds, and that is exactly what I have - (so in theory) I should be set for out that far but reality dictates I will never shoot that far.

[Any Cal.]

ok ... now keep in mind these are just rough measurements , and forgive my poor artistic ability .

the receiver width measures 1.285 on my rifle .

line A is receiver lenght 4.575
line B is center to center on the pins 3.240
line C center of the right hand hole to the top of the reciever .265
line D is the center of the hole to the bottom of the receiver .340
line E is from center of the hole to the front of the receiver .675
line F is from center of the hole to the rear of the horn .

i forgot to draw it in but the right side pin hole measures from center to the bottom of the receiver 2.030

please keep in mind these are no where near exact measurements


92122

Ok, here is what I can come up with. Obviously it could be embellished a bit with rounded corners, filework, etc. The idea is to start with a 1/2" long piece of 3" angle iron or similar 1/4" or 3/8"(3/8" may be waay too thick...) thick and cut 1/4" slots in it. One will be the slide for the peep, and one will hold a protrusion on the mount. You would use machine screws for adjusters, most likely slotted for an e-clip where necessary. If you can't chain drill and file the slots I may be able to help.

92611

-Edit- I may have another idea, but it will have to wait a bit 'til I can work on it.
..

[enfield]

Von Gruff I love that kind of stuff, I've got lots of homemade sights on rifles from not so good to pretty good ( the bad ones come off and go in the parts box ). great ideas, thanks for the pictures. I will make one of those for the rolling block next.

[stephenj]

any cal

your idea is pretty close to what i had in mind .. and a bit simpler to do .
i am kind of stuck in stop mode at the moment .. i have no heat in my garage and it is to cold to work out there .
if i can make it to town over the weekend i am going to get some batteries for my camera and i'll show how close you and i are in the thought process .

von gruff
that is one nice looking martini , i wish i had the skill and patience to do the wood work .
a .303 martini is on my short list , right after a snider-enfield