High velocity=Low expansion/Low velocity=High expansion .45acp

[Animal]

I've tinkered around with some basic Redneck Ballistic testing recently and found some interesting results in bullet expansion/penetration. The purpose of this load is for urban area defense. (I am well aware of the arguments, please do not address them in this thread). I'd like to consider the different variables behind my results:

Firearm: Rock Island Armory GI 1911 .45acp

Load #1: 5.2grn of Red Dot, Hornaday 230grn XTP jhp, WLP primer, Book Vel approx 910-940fps

Load #2: 4.0grn of Hodgdon Clays (not universal), Hornaday 230grn XTP jhp, WLP primer, Book Vel approx 730fps

Media #1: 4 inches of wet phone book (soaked for 15 min) supported upright against 2 1gal jugs. One layer of denim blue jean was wrapped around the media.
NOTE: this media was used with Load #1

Media #2: 4 inches of wet catalogs, scrap paper and junk mail (soaked for 45 min) supported upright against 2 1gal jugs. One layer of denim blue jean was wrapped around the media.
Note: this media was used with Load #2 (phone book was not available, so I attempted to replicate the same material as well as I could. This media was soaked a great deal longer because I felt the papers may have been a bit tougher than the phone book papers. Not the best scientific practice, but it was all I had).

Distance: 7 yards

Results for load #1: Bullet penetrated the phone book, both jugs of water, hit the dirt backstop, lost its steam and rolled down to the ground.
No noticeable expansion was found. The point was deformed and jagged, but not expanded. The exit wound of the media was blown apart and represented an extremely devastating injury.

Results for load #2: Bullet penetrated approx 3 inches into the media and became lodged. Beautiful expansion was observed. Measured expansion was .994. The wound cavity expanded along great with the bullets expansion.

Conclusion: Based on the performance of Load #2, I feel confident in its performance to enter the predators body, dump its energy and eliminate the threat. I also feel confident that the bullet will likely not over penetrate and pose a threat to bystanders, and if it should exit the body I believe it will not have enough energy to cause further injury to others.

Observation for further questioning: Why did the higher velocity bullet not expand? It left a trail of destruction after it exited the primary media. Hornaday only uses this bullet in there +P SD loads rated at 950fps, approx 200fps higher than what Mr. Richard Lee states my second load should be traveling. If my first load velocity matched the books stated FPS, then Hornaday might be selling a horrible SD load. Or, at least Midway is marketing this ammo incorrectly as "self-defense".

Regardless of how this ammo is marketed, my personal testing reveals that Hornaday is loading this bullet in such a way that may not allow reliable expansion of there famous XTP.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/155424/hornady-custom-ammunition-45-acp-p-230-grain-xtp-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-20.

Or perhaps my testing methods were completely hosed up and do not represent potential scenarios that SD ammo might be good for.

Please, feel fee to criticize my work for any flaws that you may think are contributing to my contradiction. Or, feel free to explain why you feel my results are reasonable. I'd really like to get to the bottom of this. Thanks.

Again I say that I am aware of the arguments of SD handloads and I am not interested in discussing the philosophy, legalities, opinions or thoughts of the subject. I'm only interested in the ballistic behavior of the two loads that I tested.

[JWFilips]

Well I'm no expert but from what I have learned on this forum I'm pointing the finger at the "15 minute soaked phone book" I don't think it was wet enough for hydrostatic expansion compared to your 2nd media but that is just IMHO

[Animal]

Well I'm no expert but from what I have learned on this forum I'm pointing the finger at the "15 minute soaked phone book" I don't think it was wet enough for hydrostatic expansion compared to your 2nd media but that is just IMHO

Good point. I really don't know what length of time a phone book should be soaked to give any reasonable measurement.

[Animal]

I just did a velocity check on Midway USAs 230gr (non +p) Self Defense jhp options. I found only one company that states a velocity below 800fps. Every other SD box advertised something between 830fps to 1015fps.

Has anyone here found that those fps ranges are suitable for urban area defense? Or is it possible that these companies aren't entirely honest about thier FPS and ME numbers? Knowing that most people compare the value of the ammunition with the biggest bang?

[Larry Gibson]

Hmmmmm.....2 different mediums with one soaked 3 times as long as the other.......only 1 bullet per test.......

I would not draw a single conclusion from this test as the media was different and the test sample (1 bullet each) doesn't tell us anything.

Animal

You are headed in the right direction. Please take the criticism with the idea that I am trying to help.

I suggest saving up newsprint. Use a bundle 14 - 16" thick (compressed) and water soak it for 24 hours before the test (uncompressed during soaking). Keep it sopping wet for the test. Shoot at least 5 bullets (7+ shots is better and yes the newsprint is large enough it will take 7+ shots) of each load. If you have "control" ammunition of known performance shoot 3 shots of that into the same test medium for a reliable comparison.

That test will give you a definitive answer to your question.

Larry Gibson

BTW; I load both the 185 and 200 gr XTPs over 7.5 gr Unique for 1025 fps from my Colt M1911 Series 70 or my Para P14 and 1005 from my Colt Combat Commander. Both bullet loads are pressure tested and are within normal SAAMI MAPs for the 45 ACP. Both offer excellent expansion and penetration and are my own SHTF 45 ACP loads.

[Animal]

Larry, thanks. That is exactly the type of input that I am looking for. I would also think that newsprint would be easier to get ahold of than phone books.

What type of results with this medium would you expect to yield good results for an SD load?

[Larry Gibson]

In the sopping wet newsprint the 2 above loads penetration was 7 - 12" with excellent expansion. They are very comparable in both penetration and expansion to Corbon 230 gr HP+P and the old Speer 200 gr FAT HP loads. The CorBon's had the higher psi; at the top end of SAAMI +P specs. The 2 loads I mention are at the top end of standard SAAMI 45 ACP spec; 18,000 psi.

For years I've used the Speer 200 gr HP (FAT) over the same 7.5 gr Unique load but alas the bullet has not been made for many years........:(

Larry Gibson

[AricTheRed]

All, I've done a fair amount of redneck ballistic testing, and here is what I've found works well.

Get a plastic tub or other water-proof container. Fill up 1/2 way or so with water, then add your catalogs, books and such. Let'em soak. Bound books and such will generally tripple in thickness, takes 30-40 min. Make sure they are soaked all the way through or you'll have wet edges and a dry ho hard core. And don't pack 'em in the soaker or they'll never soak all the way through. Then take your wet material & put them in cardboard boxes and have at it. You'll be surprised how well it works.

[w5pv]

I think I read some where that the colt 45 acp bullet traveled slow enough that it pushed debris ahead of it that helped to create a wound channel and also pulled debris from behind making a larger wound.I may be full of it as that turkey that going to get eaten tomorrow at dinner,Merry Christmas.

[jmort]

Hollow-point clogged up?

[Animal]

Hollow-point clogged up?

That may be the case. I did have to pull a fair amount of cotton from the tip of the first load. Reckon that would keep a hollow point from opening reliable? I sure hope not. I don't recall seeing to many naked violent thugs on the news.

[220swiftfn]

An addition to the above, the Hornady 230gr XTP isn't designed to expand at that low a velocity (that's why they don't load it in a standard pressure load, just in +p.) IIRC, the bottom of the expansion envelope for that one is 800-850 fps. I'd suggest trying the 200gr XTP instead, it has a much wider range....


Dan

[gtgeorge]

The famous XTP usually doesn't expand well from my experience and many others reliably. I have found it does better at higher velocities as it was designed for penetration over expansion. at a 200% you have achieved beyond Hornady's advertisements. I have found best expansion in 45 super loads but that was in animals and denim covered water jugs. Never shot one at under 850fps though and even all deer and hog harvest have been pass through.

This from the Hornady site:

XTP®

The controlled expansion of the XTP and XTP Mag is 1.5x its original diameter over a wide range of velocities. It features a heavier jacket, which stands up to the high pressures and velocities of the highest performance handgun. Find out more...

XTP®

Controlled expansion with deep penetration.
Recommended muzzle velocity range: 700 to 1500 fps