Help with 429421

[put]

Casting for my new (to me) Redhawk today with a new Lyman 429421. My barrel slugs at .431 and all cylinder throats are .433. The problem is the new mold is dropping at .430 with wheel weights. My target is .432. If I increase the hardness to #2 I think I will only gain about .001.

Is it possible to lap the mold by .002 or so without egg shaping it?
My real question is .431 out of the norm for 44 Mag?
Any thought are welcome.

[pal82]

Exact same problem here. I haven't got the guts to lap that much out of my mould. Here is my workaround.
My throats are .432 and my 429421 drops .4295. I squish the boolit shorter in my press, between a 45acp seating die and a Lee push through sizing die ram. I try to get them to .433ish. I honed a .430 lee push through die out to .4325 with a Wood dowel and sandpaper. Polished with a dremel and jewelers rouge. Works pretty good.

[bhn22]

If I ever open a gun shop, one of the things I'll keep in stock are .433 molds. This is a really common issue, I just sold a Smith with .434 throats. I had a custom mold made, but recently sold it after the gun left. Use the search function, and search for "beagling". This is a procedure devised by our own member "beagle". The search results will show you an easy way to get a couple more thousandths of bullet diameter using a form of shims.

Here's the original post for beagling, it has quite a high success rate 'round these parts: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?117331-Mould-Enlargement-%93beagling%94

[462]

An all to common problem. My solution was to beagle the mould (later lapping it) and enlarge a Lyman sizing die.

However, if it had to be done again, I'd have Accurate Molds make a proper mould, and have forum member Buckshot make the correct sizing die.

[beagle]

Yes, you can "beagle" the mould and get a few more "thou" out of it. I beagled one to .433"+ once and sized .433". I had problems with seating due to the crimp ring in the seating die seating the bullet instead of crimping. I solved that by sizing the front driving band smaller. Then, a loaded round was somewhat hard to chamber in my SBH but they shot well. If you go that big, be prepared for some surprises down the road....maybe. My dies were RCBS./beagle

[Thumbcocker]

Beagle it until you can save up for a NOE Keith mould.

[bhn22]

Yes, you can "beagle" the mould and get a few more "thou" out of it. I beagled one to .433"+ once and sized .433". I had problems with seating due to the crimp ring in the seating die seating the bullet instead of crimping. I solved that by sizing the front driving band smaller. Then, a loaded round was somewhat hard to chamber in my SBH but they shot well. If you go that big, be prepared for some surprises down the road....maybe. My dies were RCBS./beagle

I had Accurate make me a .434 mold, then Lathesmith made me a .434 Star sizing die. I did have trouble with the crimp too. I eventually ordered a Lee collet style crimping die, however I had been advertising the gun for sale, and somebody bought it before the new crimp die got here. I was seriously annoyed at owning a revolver that needed to be spoon fed. It was a cool gun, too.

[btroj]

I beagled mine to .433 and sized to .432. I then got a Lee group buy that drops at .435 so the Lyman sits unused.
I find that the Lee GB shoots better than the beagled Lyman, not sure why.

[kweidner]

I lapped mine. Takes awhile but very easy. Cast some up and get some lapping compound, drywall screws and a screwdriver. Do it by hand and take your time. My 429421 is dropping .4335 with both cavities.

[cbrick]

If you are certain of your measurements taken with a good micrometer and not wanting to lap the mold my solution would be to send it off to Erik @ Hollow Point Bullet Mold Service. Erik is a master with the proper machine tools to enlarge driving bands to your desired/needed diameter. As a plus the entire boolit isn't enlarged, only the driving bands and sharp edges aren't rounded out. He has done several for me, good turn around time & reasonable pricing.

Hollow Point Bullet Mold Service (http://www.hollowpointmold.com/)

Rick

[Ole]

Try shooting a few. I run the RCBS 250k out of my Redhawks and it doesn't drop much bigger than yours. I don't have a problem with leading.

[HeavyMetal]

Lapping is not hard and any "egg shape" will be "ironed out" in a sizing die as long as the casting is the larger of the two.

.430 to .433 is not that big a jump, about .0015 per "side" if you use great care you can lap the bottom of the mold and not hit the first driving band.

Optional move is sell current 429421 and apply gathered funds to a new accurate or NOE mold of the correct diameter.

Please take a good hard look at your 429421 and evaluate it, is it a square or round lube groove, are the driving bands all the same size, diameter and length. A real Kieth copy of the 429421 will be square lube groove and all bands the same diameter and length.

If yours isn't up to par sell it and don't waste time fixing it cause the next guy might not know squat and then won't appreciate, or pay, for your extra work.

Think about what your time is worth before doing anything to the mold.

[put]

Thanks for the replies. You guys gave me a lot of options. I may try beagleing (is that a word) it first. I can always lap it latter. Sending off to Erik is a good option. He has done a few of my molds. He does outstanding work. I've got the next 2 weeks off and getting this Redhawk shooting we'll is the main focus.

[Bigslug]

The NOE's are currently out of stock, but I can't imagine Al not keeping that one reasonably current. I picked up one of the 4-cavity solid/hp versions. Nice molds.

You can have a 5-cavity Accurate 43-250K custom cut to drop at whatever diameter you want, with your alloy, and delivered to your door for $156 + shipping, and I doubt Tom will take more than 2-3 weeks to get it done. Based on the experience of my 45-230F, REALLY nice molds!

Pin gauge your throats and measure a couple of punched-through slugs to verify exactly what you're dealing with, but assuming your findings are correct, and considering the work and shipping involved, KICK THAT LYMAN TO THE CURB!

[knifemaker]

I would not do anything that would make a permanent change to the mold. Instead list it on Ebay and sell it. You might be surprised how much you get for that paticular mold. Then apply the funds towards a custom mold from Accurate molds or NOE.

[DX250]

I had the same problem, my solution was Mountain Molds to the rescue with 2 .434 molds.

91459

I designed a plain base 240gr Keith and a 330gr LBT style rf with Keith style driving bands. $85 each shipped

All I had unlubed were culls.

[Paul D. Heppner]

PUT, both my 2 redhawks are like yours, .431 bore, .433 throats. I use the Lee 310 grainer. My mold drops them at .434 just by lucky chance. I size to .433. I am sending a Lyman 429244 to Erik to be opened up. I tried beagleing and was not satisfied with the results (made ugly bullets.)

[imashooter2]

Another man's solution:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?22604-Making-a-Drive-Band-Cutter-%28opening-a-mold%29

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have a Mihec mould that drops plain ww material at .434, they can be sized down to anything I want.

Buckshot will make you a sizing die any size you want as long as it is not a stock size you can buy. The largest I have needed with this boolit which is mainly a revolver boolit is .431

For my Marlin rifle a .432 is the size needed and that's where Buckshot came in. It gets mostly 429244's with gas checks sized .432.

Sizing a boolit .002-.004 is not going to hurt it at all, and if you get a mould that is larger you can always size down to whatever you need.

It is harder to make the boolit bigger.

Randy

[Larry Gibson]

Might just try adding 2% tin to the COWWs.....the bullets will cast better and larger. Ya'll sure got some large Ruger barrels there. I've pinned numerous Ruger 44s, including Redhawks, and haven't found a throat over .4315. Haven't found a Ruger 44 barrel over .430 yet with a minimum of 3 slugs of pure lead used and a certified micrometer for measuring.

I got a Hawes (J. P. Saur and Sohn) Western Marshal in '68 and blissfully shot thousands (stopped counting at 5,000) loads of the 429421 cast of older WWs, sized .429 over 22 gr 2400 or 23 gr H4227. Back then my eyes were good and I shot many a 1 - 1 1/2" 6 shot group from a rest at 25 yards. Then I read in the gun rags that if the bullet didn't fit the throat accuracy would be "poor".

So I diligently slugged and mic'd the throats and the groove diameter of that Hawes and found to my dismay the throats are .434 - .4345 and the groove diameter of the barrel is .4295 (bore is .417). Yikes! how in the world did I ever get any accuracy with .429 sized bullets. The Lyman mould dropped them at .4305 so I obviously needed a larger mould........so the old Hawes sat neglected for many years in the back of the gunsafe while I shot a NM BH .44 and a Colt Anaconda. That single cavity Lyman mould was traded off (mistake) and a RCBS 44-250-K double cavity mould acquired. It drops the bullets at .4305 and I size them at .430.

So when a GB here some years back was for a 6 cavity Lee 429421 that supposedly would drop bullets at .433- .434 I got one. Problem was COWWs had changed over the years and the new mould was made for plain newer COWWs. Thus when I added 2% tin to the newer COWWs the bullets dropped at .436+....yikes again:( I dropped the % of tin until the bullets dropped right at .434....just right for the Hawes throats:-D Loaded them over 22 gr 2400 and blissfully went to the range to observe how "fit is king" and the Hawes would now shoot have to shoot groups smaller than one hole........:-D

Didn't work out that way.....twice around the cylinder from the bench produced 4 - 6" groups! I was dismayed to say the least but "fit is king" right? So it had to be the new Alliant 2400.....so back home I loaded 19.5 - 21.5 gr test loads in 1/2 gr increments and back to the range seeking those one hole groups..........didn't work out that way..........12 shot groups still ran 4 - 6"..........

Ok, so the old Hawes was "worn' out......just had to be because "fit is king" right? Well one day I was testing some loads in the new Ruger FTBH 50th Anniversary with the 44-250-Ks cast of COWWs +2 % tin and sized .430 loaded over 22 gr 2400 and 17.3 gr Blue Dot. Just for S & Gs I grabbed the old Hawes to give it a try also. Lo & behold 12 shot sub 2" groups at 25 yards with both loads out of the old Hawes! How can that be that the properly sized .434 bullets that fit the throats were so inaccurate and the way undersized (according to the "fit is king" philosophy) shot so accurately:???:

I'll tell you how; squeeze a .434 sized bullet down to .4295 very quickly (milliseconds actually) with 35,000 psi behind it and imagine what happens to the bullet as that happens. Also imagine just how unsquare the base of that bullet is afterward and what happens on muzzle exit. Inaccuracy is what happens.......:( Sometimes the "king" is really the court jester........:roll:

Anyways if the 429421s with COWWs + 2% tin drop at .430+ I suggest shooting some to see how they do before altering the mould or spending $s for a custom mould. That Redhawk with those "undersize" cast bullets may just surprise you on how accurate they are.

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

What most people don't know is that the SAAMI specs for a 44 mag are .432". Apparently the gun makers and mold makers are ignoring it. same thing happens with the 41 mag. The SAAMi spec for jacketed is .410", for lead it is .411".
Dave Scovill wrote that he had guns with loads that leaded with plain based boolits so he inverted a gas check in the case mouth and pushed in into the case with the boolit when seating. I have done this and it works just fine, probably fired over 2K like this. Gref shotgun filler or poly-fil will also help with a problem like this.
With a soft enough boolit it may not be an issue though. I would shoot it and see what happens.

[Tn Jim]

I am about to send Erik a #429421 myself. Same problem here, .430 boolit and .4310-.4315 cylinder mouths. I have a RCBS .430 sizer die I am going to attempt to open to .432. Also going to order a LBT lapping kit for this SBH. This is my only CB shooter that is giving me problems and it's only because I'm not feeding it right.