H4895 in M96!

[andym79]

Hi guys,

I have had limited success using H4227 and H4198 in my Swedish Mauser. I prefer to fill up as much of a case as i can (mainly to avoid a double charge). I am looking for a reduced load that will fill enough of the case to make a double charge alost impossible, i.e. comes up to the top or overflows!

My reloading manual doesn't list it for 140 grain cast but, it is listed for a 140 grain jacketed projectile and Hodgdon write this
"H4895 powder was chosen because it is the slowest burning propellant that ignites uniformly in reduced charges. For years
H4895 has been the top choice of cast bullet shooters. For this type of shooting, loads are reduced even more than the
hunting loads listed here. To create this type of target and plinking loads, we recommend our 60% rule with H4895: Refer
to our latest reloading manual or the Reloading Data Center found on this website; take the maximum H4895 charge listed
for any given cartridge and multiply it by 60%. The shooter can create a 1500 to 2100 f/s load, depending on the bullet
weight shown. This works ONLY where H4895 is listed. DO NOT use H4895 in a cartridge where it has not been shown."

As the maximum load listed for H4895 is 36 grains; 60% is 22 grains, to avoid the possibility of a double charge 24 grains.
What do you guys think?

Is anyone using a load like that?

Thanks

[Baja_Traveler]

My standard load for my Swede is 26gr H4895 shooting a BRP 140gr 268469. Accurate and mild recoil, but still enough punch to knock over 200 yard rams on the silhouette line.

[andym79]

I should have outlined at the beginning, I am looking to shoot this Swedish Mauser accurately out to 300 yards and I want to do it with cast (economics)!

The requirements:

1) Accurate (3 MOA) out to 300 yards.

2) Almost impossible to double charge so 23 grains or more!

3) Preferably minimal leading of the bore.

4) Preferably without fillers, gas check separation has got me paranoid enough already!

Below is a 10 shot group, I shot this morning; disregard the 2 40 cal holes.

91458
This is what I getting out of the M96 at around 1900 fps, 140 grain, gas checked, number 2 alloy, using H4198, OAL 3.025" without a filler! Looking at those ten shots,this load won't get me out to 200 accurately and I trying for 300.

I have put around 300 shots down the barrel using various loads of Trail boss, H4227 and H4198. I have also tried different OALs and mild through to hard crimps. That's why I asked about H4895, generally from my experience more of a slower powder yields better results out a 300! I guess the 6.5X55 is a hard cartridge to load for cast. The 303 or 30-06 probably would have been a better choice.

[Larry Gibson]

You won't get there, load density, with 4895.

Larry Gibson

[andym79]

Hi Larry, from other posts, I can see you have done a lot of experimenting with the 6.5x55.

What powder would you recommend; and what is you opinion on fillers and the possibility of chamber ringing?

The first 100 GC rounds I ever fired, I was removing the bolt each time just to check the bore was clear, it was (silly I know); just that possibility!

[zomby woof]

I use IMR4198 at 17.5 grains with the 266469 and NOE 269145. I use a tuft of Dacron and can easily keep them in the 10 ring (when I do my part) on the SR target at 200. What a great cast rifle. You use a little lead and a little powder.

[Larry Gibson]

andym79

Quite frankly in the 6.5 Swede you are not going to get 4895 with enough load density to prevent double charging to burn efficiently while keeping the velocity low enough for decent accuracy with a cast bullet. You might with slower burning powder such as the 4350s, H4831 or RL22.

Suggest you read; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers

I explain what I do in post #4. Use a dacron filler correctly with an appropriate powder and you will not “ring” a chamber. If you try the slower powders then start at 20 gr and work up until accuracy is there or goes south. Use the Dacron filler.

As mentioned by zombie woof 4198 is a good powder as are 2400, 4227, 4759 and 5744. None will give the load density you want though and the Dacron filler will be beneficial. Rl7, 3031 and 4895 will also work with the Dacron filler but again will not give the load density you're looking for.

Putting the Dacron filler in the case will give you an automatic check for a double charge with any powder though.

With any cast bullet load in the 6.5 swede it is probably best if the start loads produce about 1400 fps and you work up from there. Reason is the fast twist accelerates the bullets RPM very quickly as the velocity goes up.

Also since you want to shoot to 300 yards I suggest you use 10 shot test groups. What can be a good looking 5 shot group at 100 yards can not even be an "on paper" group at 200 yards and especially 300 yards. The 5 shot group just is not a large enough sample and "random dispersion" of the shots can easily fool you. Use the 10 shot test group at 100 yards you are using. BTW; the 1900 fps of your above group is way too fast and is considerably above the RPM threshold. Notice several of the holes are showing signs of instability. I'd bet that load won't hold paper at 200 yards either so you'd win your bet.

You can get there (300 yards) with your 6.5 Swede, just slow it down a bit, use a proper powder that ignites and burns efficiently at that lower velocity and use the Dacron filler.

Larry Gibson

[andym79]

Thanks Larry,

You have made a couple of points I hadn't considered.

So let me get this right, you are suggesting I stick with H4227 and H4198, but reduce the loads down to around 1400 fps and fill the case up to neck height with Dacron?

I appreciated what you are saying, with a 1 in 7.5" twist the RPM will be around 182000. Correct me if I am wrong but for cast this speed should ideally be around 100,000 and not in excess of 150,000? Moot point I know but a 1:10 twist :grin:

So those slow powders 4350s, H4831 or RL22 aren't likely to result in SEE in reduced loads?; I guess that's why you have to have the Dacron, as being position sensitive they are held by the primer?

Would using a 129 grainier improve matters slightly?

I enjoyed reading you testing of Starmetal's 'load', I read that you found at a high MV for cast "the 200 yard group was at a very non-linear 16.5". Velocity was 2167 fps. Now using a different alloy and the same amount of LBT Blue Soft improved things to a 100 yard group of 2.17" but the 200 yard group was still a very non-linear 13". Obviously not going to match my required 9" at 300 and preferred 6"!

Please don't be put out by this, but I noticed from other threads that you must do some high MV "When loading to 2100+ fps I size the bullets .268 and then use a seperate sizer to size the the front 2 1/2 driving bands to .266". Could I discuss you recipe for success in a PM or here if you happy to do so?

I have also read on this forum suggestions of using WC860, 36 gr and a magnum primer for 1625 fps. Is a powder this slow really suitable for the 6.5x55? I thought its use would be exclusive to RUM and RUM type cartridges? What would the load density be for a powder like that be, I am guessing 70%? Even if such a load as advisable, would:
a) much of the powder remain unburnt, and leave mess?
b) be a problem with obturation of this reduced load,as the increasing pressure would be slow?
c) again SEE?

I will try lower loads of the two aforementioned powders for the time being, I am sure Lyman have listed them with good reason. I care a lot more for accuracy than velocity! After all if I can get a 45-70 projectile with a MV of 1400 fps to group 12" at 300, surely a 6.5mm projectile can achieve 8" at 300:???:

A note on double charges, with all my other cartridges, I have developed load which can not physically be double charged; with these I will carry out all the preparation, charge 50-200 rounds and then seat their projectiles. With the Mauser I have been laboriously weighing every charge, taring the scale with empty case, charging,weighing with charge, check visually, then seating the bullet and over and over. Efficiency as well as safety is a motive for >50% fill!

[Larry Gibson]

andym79

So let me get this right, you are suggesting I stick with H4227 and H4198, but reduce the loads down to around 1400 fps and fill the case up to neck height with Dacron?

I appreciated what you are saying, with a 1 in 7.5" twist the RPM will be around 182000. Correct me if I am wrong but for cast this speed should ideally be around 100,000 and not in excess of 150,000? Moot point I know but a 1:10 twist

What I said was; "4198 is a good powder as are 2400, 4227, 4759 and 5744. None will give the load density you want though and the Dacron filler will be beneficial. Rl7, 3031 and 4895 will also work with the Dacron filler but again will not give the load density you're looking for."

Drop the starting load velocity down to 1400 and work up until accuracy is achieved or it really goes south.....which it will do. You don't mention the exact 140 gr bullet you are using but whether a Loverin or nose bore rider design you might get close to 1800 fps with good accuracy at 100 yards. However, you'll do better at 300 yards with a velocity down in the 1500 - 1600 fps range.

Yes, use a Dacron filler. Using the Dacron filler is not the same as "filling it up". A proper Dacron filler will "fluff" up in the case and does not require filling it up as in cramming more in until it won't hold anymore. I don't know if that's what you meant but its the way it comes across. Read my post #4 on the filler sticky.

BTW; regardless of what is printed the 6.5 Swede in milsurp Swede rifles has a 7.8" twist. The 1400 fps RPM is 129,230. At 1600 fps the RPM is 147,692 which is probably at or slightly over the RPM threshold. That is why your best accuracy will be in the 1500 - 1600 fps range for holding linear group dispersion out to 300 yards.

The slower powders are not going to produce an SEE because the cast bullet won't get stuck in the throat. I've used as low as 20 gr with 4350 and H4831 and 22 gr with RL22 and a Dacron filler. I do measure pressure and see the time/pressure curve. There is no hint of any pressure spiking.

You certainly may PM me with questions. However, note from my 6.5 HV thread that my success at HV was only at 100 yards. The non linear expansion of the groups at 200 yards when velocities exceed the RPM threshold negated longer range use.

I do not use and have not used WC860 powder so I can not answer those questions.

I have tested numerous different cast bullet designs in the 6.5 Swede over the years. In the recent past I have tested the GB 129 gr Loverin style, the 129 gr Kurtz (provided by starmetal) and the 175 gr oversized Cruise Missile. I am preparing a report on the oversize CM soon to be posted. In the distant past I have tested the 266469 and the 266673. I currently have 3 moulds; Lyman's 266455, The NOE 269-145-FN and the BRP 268469. I have just started testing the 269-145-FN and the 268469 and haven't concluded those tests. I have had the 266455 mould for 33+ years and keep it as it is the consistent performer in the 6.5 Swede.

BTW; Lyman lists their loads based solely on internal ballistic uniformity. They have not tested for accuracy on target for many, many years. Lyman also does not use the Dacron filler. The Dacron filler improves ballistic uniformity through improved ignition with lesser charges. Yes Lyman knows what they are doing. I've no problem with that. I, and many others here, also know what we are doing, especially when doing it differently than Lyman. Don't mean to "put you off" by that but that is a fact.

I understand your quest for the >50% fill. However, with many cast bullet loads (like 90% of those listed in Lyman's manuals and other cast bullet manuals using fast burning powders) it just isn't going to be. With a few cartridges having an expansion ratio with in certain limits it also just isn't going to be possible with medium burning powders. The 6.5 Swede further exasperates that by having the extremely fast twist.

And yes, we are all better off and will have a lot less frustration using rifles with slower twists to shoot cast bullets.

Larry Gibson

Merry Christmas BTW

[andym79]

"Yes, use a Dacron filler. Using the Dacron filler is not the same as "filling it up". A proper Dacron filler will "fluff" up in the case and does not require filling it up as in cramming more in until it won't hold anymore."

Thanks Larry, I had read your post but sometimes my expression is not concise. Would I should have said was 'fluff it up' enough to reach the shoulder and make sure there is enough to hold the powder back and prevent the powder becoming interspersed with the Dacron; but don't compress it (ram it in).

"Lyman lists their loads based solely on internal ballistic uniformity. They have not tested for accuracy on target for many, many years. Lyman also does not use the Dacron filler. The Dacron filler improves ballistic uniformity through improved ignition with lesser charges".

I meant no offense by the comment, I am sure there are many guys on here who can create better loads than Lyman! Though I didn't know they had ceased actually trying their loads out for accuracy!

"You don't mention the exact 140 gr bullet you are using"

I am using a 140 grain Saeco mold 91619 the mix produces 16 BHN and around .2655 -.266 projectiles, which I haven't been sizing; because I don't want them any smaller.

Around 18 months ago I ordered a custom mold, I haven't got round to using it yet (had just started experimenting with this rifle; ordered it life got too busy, the rifle sat in the safe for 16 months, and now its become a bit less hectic again!)
91621

Its a 150 grain CBE mold, 268 PB I have a plain base one made custom, at the time my thinking was if I am running this slow I may not need to gas check it, and why add an extra step if I don't need to; then I got this crazy idea in my head that if i wanted a good load, accurate at 300 i needed to make it fast like the HPBTs they were firing;why o why[smilie=b:

I must admit I didn't give the twist enough consideration, the fastest rate I have shot cast for before is 1:12.

This is the mold its custom modified from. 91620

what do you think, should I just carry on as we have discussed above? I am tempted to run the same loads with the PB bullet, especially if I going to end up running the at 1400-1600 fps.

Thanks

[Larry Gibson]

That SAECO bullet is a good one. Would be better w/o the scraper groove but that was a common thing to have on bullets many years ago. With todays lubes it isn't needed and creates a weak point between the large/long nose and the bearing portion of the bullet. At higher RPM it is believed the torque of the driving portion of the bullet being spun can twist at that smaller diameter point as the nose's inertia has to be overcome to get it spinning. It is a common problem with most designs having scraper grooves and longer, heavier bore riding noses. However, with the correct alloy, lube and powder there is no reason that bullet should not shoot quite well in the 6.5 Swede in the 1500 - 1600 fps range. It should also "carry" very well to your desired 300 yards.

Now that CBE design is excellent. Even the PB'd mould you have should produce an excellent bullet for the 6.5 Swede. I'm betting that with powders such as 2400, H4227, 44957, 4198 or 5744 a very good and accurate load in the 1200 - 1400 (perhaps to 1500) fps range will be found. If just target shooting and you can raise the muzzle before the shot to position the powder or if loading strictly at the bench and can position the powder consistently during loading the Dacron filler may not be needed. Definitely worth a try.

No offense taken BTW, just wasn't sure you were being offended. It's just that sometimes we have ideas about doing certain things with cast bullets and some cartridge/bullet/powder combinations that can sound awfully good. Problem is sometimes it's just not in the cards so to speak. The 6.5 Swede is very difficult with cast bullets for many. Caused me fits many years ago until I understood what was really happening, especially due to the fast twist. It can be made to shoot cast bullets very well though. Keep at it, you'll get there.

Larry Gibson

[upnorthwis]

I'm going to be unscientific here. I think you're putting way too much emphasis on >50% fill. I've been loading for 44 years and accuracy is my only concern.
Also: My 6.5 x 55 Swede load is Lyman #266673, 150 gr WW + GC, 20 gr. IMR4759, CCI200 primer, 2.900 COL, 1900 fps. I don't even know what the fill % is.
The only thing I know is it shoots 1.50" groups all day long at 100 yds.

[Tedly]

60% H4895 got me to 19.6 grs.H4895 with ACWW #266469 gas chk'd w/ Allox...used in both commercial brass and milsurp reclaims & Berdan LR primers...

[andym79]

Hi guys, first happy new year.

I went to the range Monday; usually when refining loads, I like to shoot ten shot groups. On this occasion, I was going back to the drawing board. I loaded up 60 rounds (5 rounds of each load) using three different powders; the loads were designed to provide rounds with velocity running from 1400-1600 fps.

Well needless to say after the first two loads, I was thinking here we go again, I just love shooting my shotgun!

Then, and I swear I had tried this load before (only 18 months previously, and without a firm crimp) I got a five shot group that looked like it came out of a rifle.

92198

I was for the first time smiling whilst using this rifle, though I don't want to count my chickens, this load will be getting trialed again soon with 10 rounds!

Another 15 rounds and three loads past, and again we where enjoying the choke-less shotgun experience! Then as before came another group which looked promising, using a different powder from the first.

92199

The M96 produces more variation from a 1 grain difference in load than any other cartridge I have loaded for!

The sweet spot for velocity seemed to be around 1500 fps. Though I wish I could measure pressure or extrapolate it, as I suspect it has as much to do with grouping. There does not seem to be much data in reloading manuals for pressure in the 6.5x55 cartridge!

I will try and take it out again on Friday and shoot ten shot groups of those two loads and loads within .2 grains either side of either.

[Larry Gibson]

The sweet spot for velocity seemed to be around 1500 fps. Though I wish I could measure pressure or extrapolate it, as I suspect it has as much to do with grouping. There does not seem to be much data in reloading manuals for pressure in the 6.5x55 cartridge!

Well I do measure the pressure in the 6.5 Swede along with other cartridges with an Oehler M43. The accuracy loss above 1500 fps has a bit to do with pressure but mostly with RPM. The psi, even with a 2400 load is very low. At and just above 1500 fps the bullet is pushing 138,500+ RPM. That is at the probable RPM threshold for your load/components.

Larry Gibson

[andym79]

Here is another question, how much impact will seating depth have on accuracy, this question is twofold:

1) I know one of the problems with the Swede is that there is large bullet jump, how much does this degrade accuracy?

2) With the large bullet jump in mind, I have seated the bullet as far forward as practical, the crimp still lines up with the grove; but the seating depth is only .270" is that actually enough?

[Larry Gibson]

Here is another question, how much impact will seating depth have on accuracy, this question is twofold:

1) I know one of the problems with the Swede is that there is large bullet jump, how much does this degrade accuracy?

2) With the large bullet jump in mind, I have seated the bullet as far forward as practical, the crimp still lines up with the grove; but the seating depth is only .270" is that actually enough?

Yes. I seat the GB 6.5 Kurtz and the 266455 out to just kiss the leade. This leaves the GCs right at the bottom of the case neck.

Larry Gibson

[andym79]

Is the 266455 the discontinued Lyman 129 grainer? I would like to get my hands on one of those. I am going to take the M96 out again tomorrow, another 50 rounds (20 of them being the two loads above).

As you know I was trying to find a >50% fill, but due to the reasonably large case size, and the insanely fast twist of the M96, I don't think I can achieve it without jacketed projectiles. So if I can't get what I want from H4227 and H4198.

Is it worth giving more traditional cast powders such as

Red Dot 8-9 grains
Green Dot 8-9 grains

Has anyone had success with these?

[Larry Gibson]

Yes the 266455 is discontinued. If you see one for sale grab it..........

I've not used those powders but the 266455 over Bullseye and Unique in the 1200 - 1500 fps range is exceptional accurate. I wouldn't pass up one of the GB 129 - 130 gr Kurtz moulds either, any rendition of them.

Larry Gibson

[andym79]

Hi, well life has been a bit too busy since new year. I haven't got back to the range but plan on doing so Saturday.

In the mean time I have been doing a bit more reading. When I got into using cast bullets I bought both the Lyman manual and the Lee modern reloading.

When I read the later it seem to make sense, a cast bullet can only take so much before it gets hammered! I refer to Richard Lee piece on pressure a BHN; the table lists maximum pressures recommended. For the particular alloy I use with a BHN of 16 the recommended maximum pressure of 20433 psi.

Following this advice I have been trying to develop accurate loads without exceeding this pressure. I guess the 30-30, 38-40 and 45-70 are more forgiving, as I have been able to achieve 'good' loads (from 13,000 - 20,000 PSI) with these cartridges (I guess they were all made to shot lead).

Anyway giving the problem I have been having with the 6.5, I have return to 'cast boolit' school and tried to expand my understanding. Firstly thanks to Larry for pointing out the overlooked RPM threshold (again my other rifles have more forgiving twists) secondly and I hope this is right, thanks to http://www.lasc.us .

So the question I am alluding to is this after reading through their website, it is clear that there is some contradictory evidence out there.

"Bullet BHN / "Minimum" Chamber Pressure For Lead Alloys (PSI)
If the bullet is too hard to obturate, gas cutting usually occurs on the base band on the non-driving side of the rifling and barrel leading is likely. Simply multiply the alloy BHN by 1,422".

So for my alloy 1422 X 16 = 22752 PSI. Hello this is in complete contrast; suggesting that in terms of pressure loads should start where I was stopping.

Can someone confirm for me if this is correct? If so in my 6.5 X 55 I should be aiming for a 1400-1500 fps load that develops a peak pressure of between 23,000 and 35,000 psi, correct?

I know some of you guys have suggested loads of fast powders that would get me there!

So am I right in thinking that I probably need to either move to a softer alloy 9-10 BHN or use a faster powder e.g Unique or Red Dot to achieve my goal.

Using Quickload (I know I can't take it as gospel) in order to get up to that PSI using H4227, I would need to push the projectile at 1900 fps, and using H4198 2000fps, which is too fast!

Is this a moment of minor revelation or am I just confusing myself!

I suspect that this is just one of many factors, and the is no definite rule relating to PSI and BHN predict accuracy.

[dualsport]

Larry, I'm interested in the coming report you mentioned above re. the over sized CM. If I understood that right you are working with the CM? It's a sexy beast.

[Larry Gibson]

Already posted; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?225398-My-test-of-the-6-5-Cruise-Missile

Larry Gibson

[andym79]

Well if I don't get what I hope for on Saturday I was going to give Unique a go. Have called around all the gunshops in my city Alliant powder is out of stock here with a three month back order. So no Red Dot, Green Dot, Unique etc. It seems I am now only able to buy ADI (Hodgdon) powders!

Does anyone use any of these powders in the 6.5 X 55.

(AS30N) Hodgdon Clays
(AS50N) Hodgdon International
(AP70N) Hodgdon Universal

[Larry Gibson]

I suggest the Clays and use the starting load suggested for Bullseye and work up slowly to 1200 - 1400 fps.

Larry Gibson

[andym79]

Well once I got chance, and the Lever fever didn't have me in its grasp (I find it hard to want to shoot bolts when I have such beautiful levers that beg to be shot); I finally after weeks of threatening to, took the Mauser out again and shot 2 10 shoot groups at 100 yards. The load was H4198 15 grains and 16 grains, the 15 grain load was the winner by around 1/2"!

I was happy with the load for 100 yard shooting (2 1/2" 10 shot group), it certainly would be in the kill zone for medium sized game!

96972

I still don't think this load is 3 MOA compatible at 300 yards! But next time I go to the range with the M96 I am going to take it out to 200 and see what I get!

[sisterjim]

I'm shooting a GC 266454 100 grain loverin style ACWW/Pb 75:25. I am getting 2" groups at 100 yards with AP100. I'd like to try a heavier boolit so I can get a bit more powder in the 6.5x57R case (equivalent capacity, twist rate and ballistics as Swede) for same velocity. Also going to give 2205 a try in 16-19gr. You want to trade some of the PB 150 grainers for some 100 grainers. I also have a 266455 sc GC mold that I haven't got round to casting.

[sisterjim]

107204

I rethunk my sample set for loading and went 14.5-16.5 grains 2205 (4227). The best groups were 15.5 and 16.5. The 16 group had a flyer, high left. I reckon I had a banana from bumping nose too early in sizer. Going to load .2 and .4 +/- 15.5 and shoot out to 100. Not wishing to hijack the thread but does anybody have any idea how fast this 104 grain boolit is travelling? Thanks JIM

[Love Life]

I like the lack of vertical in the 16.5 gr group.

[sisterjim]

I was shooting off a greasy fallen tree and kneeling in the hole where the root ball had been torn out the ground. The air was calm but the forecast shower was imminent. I didn't leave enough time between shots to allow barrel to cool as it would when hunting. The intervals decreased as the powder charge increased and the raindrops began to fall. The lowest shots on all the groups were the first ones. Subsequent shots probably 15 seconds apart are higher. The rifle is the lower part of a German O/U combination and I figure target shooting isn't going to be it's forte. The stringing is something that I am aware of but not sure if this would be the expected effect as the barrel expands below the cold 12 gauge tube. I won't rule out the 16.5 group in my testing but 15.5gr is easier on the ear and I'd like to ditch the GC if possible and get a multi cavity mold for plain base. I probably shoot 2000 of these each year and expect to increase this figure by as much again. The cost of GC doesn't bother me but I'd prefer to pan lube for convenience.

[andym79]

111178111179111180111181
H4895 25 gns 26 gns 27 gns 28 gns
1 1/2" 1 11/16" 2 5/8" 4"
1900fps 1970fps 2025fps 2100fps

I had to give H4895 ago just to see what could be achieved (without the advise I recieved from Larry Gibson and others, I suspect that 1800 would have been closer to the maximum velocity with good accuracy). I haven't given up on it 100% but its time to move to the next slower powder.

I was happy with 25 and 26 grains and got near the 2K I want to exceed.

The 28 grains at 4" at 100 yards will surely not get me were I need to be at 300 yards!

Stay tuned for Varget and H4350 experimentation!

[Larry Gibson]

andyM79

Excuse me but I am a little confused by your remark of; "(despite what Larry Gibson and others had told me about what could and could not be achieved, indeed without advise, I suspect that 1800 would have been closer to the maximum velocity with good accuracy).

What I said was; "4198 is a good powder as are 2400, 4227,4759 and 5744. None will give the load density you want though and the Dacron filler will be beneficial. Rl7, 3031 and 4895 will also work with the Dacron filler but again will not give the load density you're looking for." You were asking for load density of 60%+ so a filler wouldn't have to be used and 2100 fps for 300 yard/meter shooting. If there is any confusion between us it is perhaps because you were considering “load density” as related to a maximum manual load of powder. “Load density” to me and most refers to the case capacity to the base of the case neck or bullet as 100% load density. Thus we were both correct; you did achieve 60%+ load density based on the max manual load. However, based on the case capacity you did not.

I do notbelieve I told you wouldn't get accuracy at the level you did (1900 & 1970fps). Many of us do get comparable accuracy in the 1800 fps range with M36 rifles and with a M96 into the 1900 fps range because the longer barrel gives better velocity at the same psi. Some maintain accuracy into the 1900 fps with M36s with their shorter barrels but it takes more than just casual casting and reloading techniques. I think if you read that thread I also posted on my HV tests you'll find I made almost 2100 fps with about 2 moa using 26 gr ofH4895 with a M36. With 25 gr I run very close to 2030 fps and 1 1/2 moawith 10 shots. That load also holds up with linear expansion at 200yards. However, neither load is 60% load density let alone exceedingit. At 24 -25 gr (my standard load) the velocity drops into the 1800+ to 1900+ fps range and accuracy is very much like your own 1st two loads. However, with your M96 and it’s longer barrel you can achieve higher velocity at the same pressure o rthe same velocity at a lower pressure. Both of which are good.

Your first 2 loads show excellent accuracy and potential. I suggest you test those loads at 200 yard/meters for linear expansion. If the expansion stays linear then you know with a slower powder and less psi at the same velocity that load should also stay linear and be a good load. However, with the suggested slower burning powders you just might get to 2100 fps with decent accuracy. Varget may or may not show an improvement as in some cases it doesn’t burn that efficiently at lower psi. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. Only one way to know with your bullet and rifle. The H4350 should be much better and H4831SC perhaps a bit better. Again, only proper testing will tell. With those you will have 60%+ load density.

Larry Gibson

[andym79]

Larry, I meant no offence, it was very poorly worded! I have ammended it as I feel its was a poor expression of what I was trying to say. You advised me about thinks like bullet type, alloy hardness, lube, fillers etc in other posts and PMs. Indeed it was mostly a reference to the suggestion that I use a 4350 powder and I am yet to try that.

What I was trying to say was without advise on those things and others I would have probably lost accuracy at 1800fps with that same load, for a start I was using the Saeco mold with plain alox previously!

[andym79]

andyM79

Your first 2 loads show excellent accuracy and potential. I suggest you test those loads at 200 yard/meters for linear expansion. If the expansion stays linear then you know with a slower powder and less psi at the same velocity that load should also stay linear and be a good load. However, with the suggested slower burning powders you just might get to 2100 fps with decent accuracy. Varget may or may not show an improvement as in some cases it doesn’t burn that efficiently at lower psi. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. Only one way to know with your bullet and rifle. The H4350 should be much better and H4831SC perhaps a bit better. Again, only proper testing will tell. With those you will have 60%+ load density.

Larry Gibson


I think trying the first two loads at 200 yards would be a very good idea.

I might limit how many loads I load up using Varget, as I think it is unlikely to get me more velocity accuratley than the H4895!

[frnkeore]

Hmmmm.......


With 25 gr I run very close to 2030 fps and 1 1/2 moawith 10 shots. That load also holds up with linear expansion at 200yards.

180,740 rpm and still linear? Other people do that, too with even better accuracy, Right?

So again, what is the "threshold" RPM? Threshold...... is that something that I can find anyplace else? Or do we just have your word for it and unscientific testing?

Do you have to have reloading skills that most people don't/can't have to find accuracy above 12 - 140,000 rpm ("push it up")?

I've been very confused about this, for a very long time. I see a lot of people getting accuracy well above 140K but, 140K should be where things start falling apart but, it doesn't seem that way. It seems that excellent, even superior accuracy can be had well above 140K.

Now regarding linear groups with cast bullets........ Where can I find in writing, that the ratio is 2 to 1 groups at 100 and 200 yards with cast bullets?

I found a written source that says, in a study, done excusively with cast bullets and over close to 1000 or more groups, that the average is approx 2.8 to 1. I think given a little positive leeway (rounded up), I think I would consider 3 to 1 as proof of reliable results.

Frank

[Larry Gibson]

Frank

We've been aware of your confusion for sometime. I have explained it over and over to you ad nauseum. I will explain it again. Perhaps you will understand it this time?

Part of your confusion is your consistent expectation the RPM Threshold is a"limit' in the 120-140,000 RPM range......IT IS NOT A LIMIT. The reason it is called a “threshold” is because if you cross it with a certain combination of components accuracy as in group size goes south......sometimes rapidly and sometimes more slowly. That RPM Threshold with regular cast bulletsof the common ternary alloy is generally between 120-140,000 RPM. However, through judicious casting and reloading you can push that threshold up. How much depends on how judicious the casting and reloading is as in improving technique, using a stronger alloy, a better designed bullet, a slow burning powder, weight and visual bullet sorting, etc. Depending on the rifle,the barrel twist, the barrel length and all the above you can push (move up if you can’t understand “push”) up to a higher RPM. However, there will still be a threshold just at the higher RPM. Once you cross it at that higher RPM level accuracy goes south again.

You can also lower the RPM threshold by using inappropriately poor or soft alloys, poorly designed bullets, fast burning powders, and through sloppy casting and reloading, etc.

In the case of the 6.5 Swede at 2050 fps or so and maintaining linear group dispersion if you read my 6.5 Swede thread you will see the hoops I jumped through to push the RPM Threshold up to just over that velocity. No it isn’t easy and it takes meticulous attention to detail (anal attentiveness as some call it) but it can be done.

As to your confusion regarding linear expansion; you have a habit of researching CBA match results and comparing those results using a decimal point figure to the tenth. As I have told you before linear expansion comparison of 100, 200 and 300 yard groups are not expected to be measured to the nearest .001” as in CBA matches ans
d sometimes not even to the inch. Let’s say you go out on one day and shoot a 10 shot group at 100 yards of 1.5” and then a 10 shot group at 200 yards of 2.5”. On the next day you shoot the same load/rifle with a 100 yard group of 2”and a 200 yard group of 4.5” and on the next day you go out and shoot a 1.9” group at 100 yards and a 5.1” group at 200 yards. Those groups with the same load/rifle are all within expected variation of linear expansion. However, if you went out with a load and it shot 2.5” at 100 yards and then 8.9” at 200 yards you could probably bet that is non-linear expansion of the groups as it is way outside any expected variation. What should be self evident to you, as it isto everyone else, is that linear expansion of groups does not mean the groups have to be exactly twice as large to the .001 or even to the .1” at 200 yards as they were at 100 yards.

As an example the targets pictured show consecutive groups fired at 100, 200 and 300 yards with the 2600+ fps load out of my Palma rifle. There was a 5 mph +/- wind comingout of 9 o’clock and I did not correct for it. Note the groups at 200 and 300 yards are not EXACTLTY 2 and 3 times as large as the 100 yard group. They are not expected to be because we seldom shoot all our groups exactly the same size. There is an expected +/- of group sizes. The targets show excellent linear expansion.

The next pictures show a test of linear expansion with the same bullet at 50, 100 and 200 yards; one load under the RPM Threshold and one load over the RPM threshold. Should be obvious what non -linear expansion is.

Larry Gibson

111276111280111279111277

[MBTcustom]

Larry, I get the RPMTH. Its just how fast you can spin with a certain load (brass, primer, powder, alloy, boolit, lube etc etc etc.) No problem.
I would like you to expound on "sloppy reloading techniques".
In your opinion, what are the main things we can do at the bench to shoot faster?
You choice of words: "Sloppy" seems to convey more than just going and buying a Star lubesizer and matchgrade dies.
I mean, reloading dies are pretty simple tools. You make vertical adjustments, then you use them. It doesn't seem to matter whether you ram the cartridges in the dies or push them lovingly through the stoke, pinky in the air.....or does it?

What are we doing at the bench that could be detrimental to our group size other than seating depth?

[frnkeore]

So, it is turning out that it's not really the RPM that is effecting the accuracy of the cast bullet in the <140K RPM range but, how well the bullet is cast, how well it's loaded and how well the chamber of the rifle is able to align the bullet, before it starts to spin?



Range
Velocity
Impact
Drop
ToF
Energy
Drift


0
2600
-1.5
0
0
2252
0


100
2251
2.72
3.08
0.13
1688
0.97


200
1936
0
13.11
0.27
1248
3.38


300
1652
-12.1
32.51
0.44
909
7.84



Note the wind drift for a 5 MPH wind drift, using the 311466 (BC .25), 3 1/2 times the the 100 yd drift @ 200. Do we divide the 200 and 300 yard groups by a factor of the wind drift, to get the "linear" thing?

Real people shoot in the real conditions.

Frank

[PAT303]

And another 6.5 thread goes off the rails. Pat

[andym79]

Guys this thread is not supposed to be a discussion about the RPM threshold, whatever your opinion! Discussing it here is fine, but lets just discuss it relatively to the thread!

In my opinion it is one factor that plays a role in effecting accuracy!

The discussion is meant to be on the virtues or lack thereof when using H4895 powder in the 6.5X55.

Any comments with regard to powder selection and loads for this case are welcome.

Here I detract myself.

I was reading through some bench rest stuff. Its not my area of interest, but it raised an important issue.

Barrel harmonics, the theory basically states that the vibration within the barrel means there are multiple sweet spots for the projectile to leave the muzzle. These sweet spots are related to barrel time and timing the exit around vibrations.

In theory then there is more than one load of a powder which can lead to accurate groups.

I believe experienced this phenomenom when using H4198 in the 6.5x55, this was before I had read a thing about optimum barrel time.

I worked up through some loads and accuracy started going south. I had another three loads in the box, each set 1/2 grain higher than the previous. The first load gave the same sort of group as when accuracy went downhill, the second two however resulted in groups better than the previous two, close infact to the group fired with 1 1/2 groups less.

What other than barrel harmonics explains good-good-bad-bad-good-good groups (apart from the shooter of course)?

[PAT303]

I have found the same thing with the swede as well as my LE's,I think it's one of the many problems we face,I always shoot loads a grain or two above the point that accuracy went to pot for this very reason.I'll be shooting some AR2217 loads this weekend with fillers if the weather holds out,nothing but rain now. Pat

[Larry Gibson]

And another 6.5 thread goes off the rails. Pat

Not really Pat, I have been helping andym79 with the 6.5 Swede as he mentions. He understands, he does and he is succeeding. I answered Frank's question and we see by the reply what he is about. ......I am done with him. The thread can certainly go on. However andym79 has another thread going as he wants to try Varget powder. He listens, he learns, he does and he succeeds. ......That's what it's about.

Larry Gibson

[andym79]

Not really Pat, I have been helping andym79 with the 6.5 Swede as he mentions. He understands, he does and he is succeeding. I answered Frank's question and we see by the reply what he is about. ......I am done with him. The thread can certainly go on. However andym79 has another thread going as he wants to try Varget powder. He listens, he learns, he does and he succeeds. ......That's what it's about.

Larry Gibson

Thanks for that Larry. Even if I do like to ask a lot of questions before the process can progress!

Here goes another one Vihtavuori N550 is on special at my LGS does anyone think that this power has any qualities than might make it more suitable to what I am trying to do with the 6.5x55 or is there very little difference between it and H4350? If it wasn't on special I wouldn't be asking.

[Larry Gibson]

andym79

I have not used VV N550 so I can't give you a straight answer. However, it is one of VVs "high energy" powders that also is less temperature sensitive. It is in the same burning range as RL19 and IMR4350. The question is; does N550 ignite easily and burn efficiently at lower psi levels of cast bullet loads? In VVs manual they show starting loads of 36 - 39 gr with 140 - 155 gr jacketed bullets so it just might be a good powder with your heavier cast 6.5 bullets. I'd suggest a starting test load at 36 gr with a Dacron filler. The chronographed velocity and accuracy should indicate whether to work up from there or down from there.

Larry Gibson

[andym79]

andym79

The question is; does N550 ignite easily and burn efficiently at lower psi levels of cast bullet loads?

Larry Gibson

That is the big question, I would like to know!

I note that H4350 is a single based powder and N550 is a double based powder. As double based powder contains nitroglycerine, I assume they have more energy and will produce slightly higher velocities at the same pressure level?

However does that extra energy mean that they will burn hotter and increase erosion of the throat and more bullet deformation?

[Larry Gibson]

All good question? Doubt if I'll see any of that powder in this part of the world for some time.

Larry Gibson

[sthwestvictoria]

I had thoughts about using N550 in the 35 whelen after I was gifted some:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?236123-35-whelen-VV-N540-check-my-extrapolation-for-safety-please
Despite the incorrect thread title it is N550 I am talking about. The wash up was that as it is a powder slower than AR2206H I did not feel comfortable reducing it. It has been put to good use for jacketed in the .243 with excellent velocity, low deviations.

There is published data for using N110 for reduced loads - see my reply to andy79 in the lever sub-forum. It is from a German manufacturer of commercial cast bullets:
http://www.hn-sport.de/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/service/laborierungsdaten.pdf

[PAT303]

I found some notes from 2003,in my rifle I used 40/2217/CBE 160grn for 2040fps and 32/2208/CBE for 2160fps,25/2207/CBE for 1980fps. Pat

[andym79]

I found some notes from 2003,in my rifle I used 40/2217/CBE 160grn for 2040fps and 32/2208/CBE for 2160fps,25/2207/CBE for 1980fps. Pat

Hi Pat was that in an M38 or M96?

I have found 2208 to be good up to 30 grains so far but I think with so more fussy bullet selection and more precise reloading, there is not reason I couldn't get it to work with a couple more grains stocked on the fire!

[andym79]

What kind of groups did the 2217 get PAT?

[PAT303]

They need more work,in the 303 and 8mm you need to use more of it,a full case is a good start. Pat

[andym79]

Hi guys,

took the M96 out again yesterday to the range.

Range conditions were, perfect blue sky 60F, wind left to right 2-4MPH. A nice winters day for shooting!

GOOD news my 25 and 26 grains loads of H4895, pushing 266469s were repeatable at 100 yards, nice and tight.

BAD news, when I took them out to 200 yards, group expansion was non linear (for those who often question what Larry Gibson is getting at with this, here are my findings).

In my heart I had reservations about how well the 266469 H4895 load would really do out a 300 or even 200 yards!

I shot 20 of each load at each distance 80 loads of H4895 in total, just to be sure.

The reason I had doubt over these loads was because, I had noticed at 100 yards many, whilst forming a tight group were not printing on the target as you would like. By that I mean there was evidence of tipping and yawing in there flight. Whilst a few printed beautifully round holes, many printed imperfect holes with an o'clock preference. Showing tipping of what looked like 5-10 degrees, on occasion perhaps some times much more.

I can surmise of only four reasons for why this tipping should occur:

1. Imperfection in those bullets, an inherent imbalance, whether it be nose or base bias (I scrutinised the bullets for visual imperfections as suggest by someone who has been advising me, I didn't however take his advice on weight each bullet (the scales is more accurate than my eye in picking imperfection it would seem)).

2. The bullets were not centred true into the case upon loading, without the 266469s contacting the rifling there was no mechanism to ensure that their launch was central and so neither was their passage along its length.

3. Similar to 2, only the bullet started true, but for some reason lost trueness upon launch or passage along the bore (imperfection of gas check seating or pushing a threshold to its limit, BHN may not be uniform across all my bullets).
4. Some bullets simply printed well on the target whilst others did not at 100 yards, this however seems unlikely given my poor results at 200 yards.

Anyway back to that non linear expansion, groups of 1 1/2" and 1 11/16" at 100 yards; groups of approximately 4 MOA or 8 inches at 200 yards! Not linear, and I cant blame the wind.

I think this is the end of the line for H4895 and the 266469!

Will post some details of the CBE 266132 with H4895 and Varget later (not necessarily the end for H4895.)

[Larry Gibson]

Here is the most useable HV load I've gotten so far. This is out of a M38 24.7" barrel. As we see the 100 yard accuracy is excellent at 2090 fps and while usable at 200 yards the expansion is a bit over linear. Dropping the velocity down to 1800 - 1900 fps provides very good linear expansion to 200 yards. However, this same load out of a M96 with a 29" barrel produces 2154 fps with accuracy running 2.5 - 3" at 100 yards and 14.5" at 200 yards.........not good.

Larry Gibson

112618

[1johnlb]

Who said, an education wasn't cheap.:goodpost: can't quite make out the load and powder though Larry, guess that's on purpose.

[andym79]

The CBE projectile performed well, all holes it printed on the target were nice and round, with no obvious sign of tipping. I loaded up from 27-30 grains, I pushed the 266132 up to 30 grains and 2180fps whilst managing to get a group of 3 3/4" (29 grains) not what I wanted, but those holes were round!

If this load proves to be linear then it would do; there is however no guarantee that it will. I am going to try 29 grains with the 266132 when I can at 200 yards.

The CBE performed better with Varget the Lyman with H4895.

Ignore imperfections in the cast bullets, they are not specimens I will be firing, they are purely for illustration. How fast do you think each of them could realistically be pushed.

The two on the left are plan B I have only played with them a bit in the past! I think the Lapua on the left could be a seriously good projectile. I haven't given up yet, but I think trying to push cast in the M96 (one of the least forgiving rifles for the purpose) at 200,000 RPM is a big ask!

[Larry Gibson]

Who said, an education wasn't cheap.:goodpost: can't quite make out the load and powder though Larry, guess that's on purpose.

I don't keep "secrets" about loads. That is with the standard load that was worked up in my 6.5 Swede thread where you'll probably get an information overload on details of the load. Thought I had mentioned it here. Anyways it's 31 gr of AA4350 with the Original Buffer filler under the 3rd GB 6.5 Kurtz bullet. Some get excited at calling it a "Kurtz" bullet but I believe that's the pretext it was made under. I was sent some real "Kurtz" bullets because, among numerous other things they were touted as the "secret", but they did no better.

Larry Gibson

Larry Gibson

[1johnlb]

[QUOTE=Larry Gibson;2879939] However, this same load out of a M96 with a 29" barrel produces 2154 fps with accuracy running 2.5 - 3" at 100 yards and 14.5" at 200 yards.........not good.

Just cought that. Both of my Swede's are m96's.

Anxiously awaiting the CM write up.