Boolit for Pedersoli throat

[guninhand]

I need to order a mold for a new Pedersoli 1874 Long Range Sharps in 45-90. A cerosafe cast gave me .4718 a distance of .1 ahead of the chamber neck ending. Thereafter the diameter decreases about .002 for every .1 inch forward until the bore is reached. Bore is .450. The only .45 bpcr boolit I have is a BACO that goes way deep out in the bore if seated nose out but when base out I get .729 measured from chamber/case neck to the forward placed base. The unsized base diameter of that boolit is .4592 in my match alloy.

Would it be best to order a mould .460, or a tad over to be sized to .460? I have seen internet diagrams of the Pedersoli-Gunn-Trenk boolit and it appears to my untrained eye that my chamber is cut to suit that. The rifling starts about 0.80 ahead of the neck ending so a .460 boolit would engage the throat first and not be able to reach or engage the rifling. Would appreciate opinions before I try to get a mould made. TIA.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I have a PGT for both my Pedersoli 45/70 and 45/90, it is extremely accurate and shoots tight groups all the way out to 1000yds. The boolit weighs 546gns when cast 1:30, and is loaded unsized but pan lubricated.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/PGTmold-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/PGTmold-1.jpg.html)

[guninhand]

Thanks BAW. Is the as cast diameter of your boolit right on .460 inch.?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

NEI Makes a Traditional Ideal Postel that casts near .461 It shoots very well even sized down to .458 in a Shiloh.
This Bullet is Very Accurate.
KW

[montana_charlie]

Thanks BAW. Is the as cast diameter of your boolit right on .460 inch.?
The desigation of that mould (made by Victory Molds) is ".460-550-PGT".
Therefore, it is specified to cast a .460" diameter bullet.

Is it possible for you to post a clear, horizontal, picture of your chamber cast?

CM

[guninhand]

Sorry for the delay in posting, no hydro power since 23rd. This is the best cast I could get with a tuna can for pouring. Cerrosafe wasn't really hot enough. It filled out enough to get point to point measurement. Next time I'll have the small Lee iron ladle and heat the bore with boiling water first. Grid marks are 1/4 inch apart.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff170/guninhand_2007/pedersolithroat_zps89ce0e8b.jpg

[Red River Rick]

GIN:

You mentioned "new", as in a "Brand New Rifle" or "used", but new to you?

Looks like one heck of a lot of freebore. I wonder if someone hasn't already worked on that chamber.

Something is not right. Looks likes someone tried to make a PP chamber.

RRR

[guninhand]

RRR, this rifle is brand new, got it from Marstar. I suspect the design is based on a belief it's good to start swaging down the boolit before rifling is engaged, or maybe PP or for fouling control. Actually I was going to ask if you could make the .460 mold, with a Money nose. If not I'd get the NEI mould KW was kind enough to mention.

[freedom475]

I know it sucks when you buy a new rifle and it isn't right...but that rifle needs to go back to the manufacture (or dealer if his is any good at standing behind his stuff).

That is not a "design" based on any thing or idea....it is a mistake!!:sad:

Just a thought...but Pedersoli makes the 45-120 (45-3.125) and it sure looks like the barrel was intended to be a 120 but the chamber was only reemed to the 45-90 case.

You measured a freebore of .80....well the difference beween the 45-120 case and the 45-90 is .85.

[montana_charlie]

I'm glad you posted that image. It will save you and us a lot of time and heartache trying to make a 'good bullet' fit in a 'bad hole'.

CM

[guninhand]

That fear was in the back of my mind, as there are blueprint images of a Pedersoli 45-70 chamber online and it doesn't have that giant freebore. I'll call the vendor tomorrow and explain. Tks everyone.

[guninhand]

Sent rifle back to vendor for replacement. I included a picture of my chamber cast, a copy of a Pedersoli 45-70 chamber blueprint, and an explanation of why the throat was screwed up; and I specifically asked to check that replacement did not have same defect. In a phone call checking status of my order I'm told gunsmith has checked replacement and all is ok.Replacement arrives. Gun looks beautiful, fit and finish perfect.

First thing I do is check C.O.A.L. using an unsized BACO that is .4600 on base driving band and .4493 on nose, 507grains. Going by the blueprint for the Pedersoli 45-70, and adding 0.3 for my 45-90 chamber, COAL should be 3.152. My measurement, 3.883 !! The boolit is over a tenth of an inch out of the case before it even touches the rifling. I call the vendor to explain that the replacement seems to have the same problem as the first. I'm hoping to talk this gunsmith but he has "just stepped out".

Vendor doesn't have any more so the replacement is on the way back for a full refund. I would love to hear what anyone else with a Sharps Long Range Pedersoli in 45-90 have for a COAL, especially if it was a recent purchase, or even better hear from a factory representative. So now I got 200 brass looking for a gun.

[NSB]

I've bought five Pedersoli rifles in the last three years. Two were good and three were bad. Not for the problem you have. It seems that their quality control is a hit or miss proposition. I think every gun they make goes in a box and out the door. Sad part is, most people who buy them will never know the difference. Most people aren't "real shooters" who can tell when there is a problem.

[montana_charlie]

First thing I do is check C.O.A.L. using an unsized BACO that is .4600 on base driving band and .4493 on nose, 507grains. Going by the blueprint for the Pedersoli 45-70, and adding 0.3 for my 45-90 chamber, COAL should be 3.152. My measurement, 3.883 !!
This bullet was seated in the case with the point out ... or base out?

The boolit is over a tenth of an inch out of the case before it even touches the rifling.
Pedersoli is said to have changed their Sharps chamber in recent years. When that occurred, and in what way it was changed has not been said. But, according to Paul Jones, the throat was shortened.

This is an image of how the PGT bullet fits in the 'old' Pedersoli Sharps chamber ... the chamber it was intended to fit.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/45-70_Govt__PedersoliwithPGTBullet-1.gif

As you can see, the PGT bullet was designed to set out of the case by more than a tenth of an inch in order to make contact with the leade.
If your 'test' used a Money bullet from BACO, it would have to protrude even further into the leade in order to make contact.

I wish you had made a 'good' chamber cast and asked some questions before sending the rifle back ...

CM

[guninhand]

MC,
There was no case involved in the COAL measurement. I dropped the boolit into the chamber, nose first so it fetched up against the rifling, then held it in place with a pencil while I put a delrin rod down the bore from the muzzle, and marked it at the muzzle. With the boolit removed and the breech closed, I measured from muzzle to breach with the rod again, and the difference in length between the 2 marks is COAL or maximum possible assembled cartridge length.

By tenth of an inch I mean that if a case were to be in the chamber, the [U]entire[U] boolit is out of the case by at least a tenth of an inch before touching the rifling.

I would have been most happy if the boolit could have touched the rifling with only 2 lube groves exposed. My COAL measurement indicated to me the throat in this gun had to be the same as the first one. If the boolit in the Pedersoli rifle blueprint picture were drawn to resemble the gun I got, the boolit would be moved .721 inches forward, i.e. completely out of the case.

[DangerousDrummer]

Could someone explain how the "freebore" is determined from a cast. I know the cast picture was not good, so maybe post a good cast picture with an explanation?

[montana_charlie]

By tenth of an inch I mean that if a case were to be in the chamber, the [U]entire[U] boolit is out of the case by at least a tenth of an inch before touching the rifling.
Ah!
Now I understand how you did that test.

I wish Dick Trenk were still alive, or that Pedersoi had replaced him with another as dedicated as he was.

We WOULD be able to find out what is going on with these stupid chamber dimensions ...

CM

[montana_charlie]

Could someone explain how the "freebore" is determined from a cast. I know the cast picture was not good, so maybe post a good cast picture with an explanation?
On a chamber cast it is easy to see where the front of the case hits the front of the chamber.
The zone between the front of the chamber and the point where the rifling has reached full depth ... that zone is often called the chamber 'throat'.
The throat will include the 'leade' (the ramp formed where the rifling ramps up to full depth) and the 'freebore' if there is any.
The freebore is any area 'free' of rifling between the chamber and the leade.
In some chambers, the beginning of the leade appears to touch the end of the chamber cut. That would be a throat with 'no freebore' at all.

This part of a chamber cast shows what I'm saying.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/StepMod.jpg

A is the end of the chamber cut.
The area between A and B is the freebore, and the area between B and C is the leade.

A freebore can have some taper to it, but most often it is a straight cylinder (usually) at groove diameter.

The entire section between A and C would be called the 'throat.

CM

[DangerousDrummer]

Thanks Charlie, I see it now on your picture, and also can tell what you guys are seeing on the original picture. Maybe the rifle was designed to shoot a 2 in bullet 2000 yds?

[montana_charlie]

Thanks Charlie, I see it now on your picture, and also can tell what you guys are seeing on the original picture. Maybe the rifle was designed to shoot a 2 in bullet 2000 yds?
What seems more likely is that the barrel was chambered for .45/120, but marked wrong.

CM

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I've bought five Pedersoli rifles in the last three years. Two were good and three were bad. Not for the problem you have. It seems that their quality control is a hit or miss proposition. I think every gun they make goes in a box and out the door. Sad part is, most people who buy them will never know the difference. Most people aren't "real shooters" who can tell when there is a problem.

What amazes me, that many "BAD" Rifles, and not a single comment plus this poor fella's 2 BAD rifles, A single Bad Shiloh and this group here, would be heading for Big Timber with a Rope, and Spouting off on the net what Junk Shilohs are. The Double Standards around here Amaze me to no End.


Does any one here know why Dick Trink got so involved with Pedersoli? I do, as I was friends with man and broke bread more then a time or two with him, Dick got a Bad Pedersoli and got involved with them to fix!!! the ISSUES. His Highwall rifle along with Help from Dan T was-is a Fine Rifle. I shot a good bit a John Bodine Roller a few years back that was one of the most acccurate BPCR's I have ever handled, Pitty that their Quality is having Issues again.

KW
The Lunger

[NSB]

What amazes me, that many "BAD" Rifles, and not a single comment plus this poor fella's 2 BAD rifles, A single Bad Shiloh and this group here, would be heading for Big Timber with a Rope, and Spouting off on the net what Junk Shilohs are. The Double Standards around here Amaze me to no End.



Does any one here know why Dick Trink got so involved with Pedersoli? I do, as I was friends with man and broke bread more then a time or two with him, Dick got a Bad Pedersoli and got involved with them to fix!!! the ISSUES. His Highwall rifle along with Help from Dan T was-is a Fine Rifle. I shot a good bit a John Bodine Roller a few years back that was one of the most acccurate BPCR's I have ever handled, Pitty that their Quality is having Issues again.

KW
The Lunger

Kenny, I made a very good living working as a quality manager for several very large corporations. I've seen some very bad quality producers make great changes in the products they produced, all for the better. The single biggest thing they did to improve was change the culture within the organization, and focus on end results and not immediate profit. The sad part about Pedersoli is that like many producers of poor or intermittant quality, in the short term it seems to help by getting the product out the door so the money comes in. In the long term it dooms them to lost sales and customer loyalty. Pedersoli has all the tooling and expertise it needs to make a consistently good product but lacks the discipline to adhere to good process planning and control. They also lack a good service/warranty program in the U.S. They have an excellent person doing the work but their methods of having it done are very slow and not customer focused. I was very fortunate to have Cabela's stand behind their products and refund every penny I spent on buying Pedersoli products. Kudos to Cabela's and shame on Pedersoli. I'm actually surprised Cabela's carries their products based on the return rate for defective products.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

NSB,

Thanks for an Honest and candid insight too the issues. Sad dang Sad.

your post was an eyeopener!

KW
The Lunger

[rockrat]

As an aside, could you buy a rifle in 45-70 and just have it rechambered to 45-90? That way you could control the throat.

[montana_charlie]

What amazes me, that many "BAD" Rifles, and not a single comment plus this poor fella's 2 BAD rifles, A single Bad Shiloh and this group here, would be heading for Big Timber with a Rope,
You have that backwards unless you can provide a link to a local discussion that proves it.
If it WAS a Shiloh rifle with a problem, we would just refer the owner to 'your' site for more information.
We only get 'disrespectful' when one of you (like now) decides to 'start something'.


If this conversation were to occur on 'your' site the entire crowd would be taking turns crowing about the poor quality of all pizza guns.
But, if the story DID involve a problematic Shiloh, you would all be castrating the poor owner for mentioning his dissatisfaction 'in public'.

Even bigted got his ears burned on 'your' site ... and his Shiloh problem was many years and several owners old.



As an aside, could you buy a rifle in 45-70 and just have it rechambered to 45-90? That way you could control the throat.
That's what I did, but it was because I got tired of waiting for a used 45/90 to show up on the auction sites.
I sent it to the Pedersoli gunsmith thinking that would get me the Pedersoli chamber, but it didn't.
He didn't have a Pedersoli reamer ... and nobody else does, either.
I even tried to get one from the factory, but that was a no-go, too.

CM

[Lead pot]

My first repo Sharps was the Pedersoli Quigley rifle when Cabalas first stocked them. Mine was a .45-120 and it had a throat just like yours. Dick Trenk and I got into a rough go round about that problem that went far enough that he threatened me with a law suit through the PM's when I advised a guy not to buy that piece of junk.
I was able to make that rifle shoot quite well using a tight fitting groove diameter PP bullet and a custom GG .459" diameter Creedmoor type nose without the reduced bore rider nose that let me load a bullet in the case keeping all grooves but one covered in the case.
But it was a pain to get it to shoot like I felt it should.

[Don McDowell]

He didn't have a Pedersoli reamer ... and nobody else does, either.
I even tried to get one from the factory, but that was a no-go, too.


Would not think it would be a terrible hard thing to get a decent chamber cast from a Pedersoli 45-90 , and have a reamer made from that, if it was that important to have ...

[Baja_Traveler]

I have a Pedersolli Creedmor that I've been having a mother of a time getting to shoot. My throat isn't too bad, in fact it is reasonable - but my BPCR scores for the past year were just miserable (averaging 16-18). Messed with all manner of bullets and loads, re-cut the crown and bore scoped the rifling (actually looked really good) and pretty much gave up.
Then I bought my $30 Shilo from JonK here - same loads, same scope, same everything and shot a 29 first time out (I know, still a long way to go). I think I've come to the conclusion that the Pedersoli barrel is just too light and whippy for good long range accuracy. You don't notice any issues 200 yards and in, but the problem seems to be amplified further out.
I really like the rifle otherwise, so instead of going larger I'm going to rebarrel it to a 40-65.

[Don McDowell]

There is a subtle difference in stock dimensions between the various Sharps rifles, and some fit a person better than others, and comfort and feel of the stock can make a big difference in you scores.

[hickstick_10]

Guys are still clinging to their spaghetti idols I see.

They do make a nice roller though.

[guninhand]

What seems more likely is that the barrel was chambered for .45/120, but marked wrong.

CM

CM,

One of my chamber casts, taken before the final one, included part of the rim and went down past the chamber ending. The measurement from rim to chamber mouth was just about exactly the length of my Starline 45-90 brass.

[Don McDowell]

guninhand, I have an Italian rifle with a chamber much the same as yours, if you want to shoot grease groove bullets, then shortening starline brass to about 2.25 will work alright, the thing really comes alive with Norma basic brass shortened to the same length and loaded with bore diameter patched bullets. The Norma brass shortened that far makes the case neck walls to thick for grease groove bullets.
To find the length you need start with a full lengh 2.4 case and a bullet seated to the driving band, keep trimming the case until that dummy round will drop straight into the chamber and allow the breech block to close without resistance. Then trim about another .010 to be sure the case mouth doesn't get pulled up into the leed. You'll be able to see if the cases are to long after firing as there will be a thin drawn ring at the case mouth. The bottom end of that ring is the maximum length of your case.
Sometimes we just have to do what is necessary to deal with the hand that has been dealt to us.

[bigted]

i have hesitated to chime in here but think i will anyway.

even with my bit of hard luck with the MEMBERS [a few of them ... not all] on that other FORUM ... when my problem became known to the very fine Shiloh folks ... they / HE told me to ship it back to them and the problem was fixed rite away ... no problem at all. and more to the point it was fixed rite the first time. cant hold folks feet to the fire for an occasional bad apple ... human is just that ... human.

HOWEVER ...

had my experience with the COMPANY been even somewhat close to your experience with the ped folks ... i would have pitched a bitch rite away and stopped ever having anything to do with them in the future ... along with that i would never hesitate to publish as much hate n discontent as i could about the crummy treatment i had received from an outfit that charges a premium for a trashy product.

AND YES I CAN TALK TO THIS ...

i DO own a ped product in an older "long range" sharps rifle in 45-70 ... and ... have had no issues with it except for the bit of inferior fitting. this rifle is a great one and i like it very much so this DOES allow me a perspective into my opinion on both these outfits and my experience with them.

if i ever had your kind of bad luck with ANY outfit ... and i had the chance to receive my money back ... i would gladly do so and go shopping for another brand of rifle. we as Americans do NOT have to be held hostage by any bad performing outfit for ANY reason. especially when there are at least 3 outfits rite here in America building the same style rifles and so far ... standing behind them.

i personally have not had any bad experience with pedrosoli but with the recent exposure of bad rifles being sent back and returned with no positive fix i will by no means be purchasing any firearms from this manufacturer. this same treatment from me would apply to ANY company that charges a premium for an inferior product ... be it pedrosoli , C Sharps , uberti , Shiloh , Colt or any other outfit. we just have no need to observe any humility when chatting about such bad performance as pertains to a favorite firearm. EVER !!! we owe them the courtesy to hold them responsible for a good product OR just stop buying their trash ... no matter who "they" are.

there ... guess i got that bit of grumpy off my back!

[country gent]

I agree with what Bigted has stated . I also have a pendersoli long range sharps ( 34" half oct barrel was the cabellas model sold 12 years ago or so) it has been a fine performer with both Paper patched and grease groove bullets and appropriate loads. But with the complaints being seen here and elsewhere Im wondering if something has changed at the company as far as managment or workers. I have seen the hiring cycles really affect quality. A plant or factory is on about a 20-30 year cycle of hiring new employees. WHen the new batch comes in alot is relearned or has to be retaught. With the loss of experienced people things start over. Changes in managment have an even greater effect as they determine what the "standard" is. Accountants that have never turned a handle ran a file or measured a part determining bottom dollar are running alot of these companies now. ( I went thru it at Campbells soups and found a new job). There are many possible reasons for these issues and getting to the bottom of them may never happen. Pendersoli may institute traing programs or experience of new help may slowly remove the issues with no fan fare.

[NSB]

The American auto industry went through this about thirty years ago. The Japanese came in and ate their lunch so to speak. It took a long time for them to wake up and realize that they were losing customers because of poor quality and poor customer treatment. I know, I worked for almost forty years for the two largest manufacturers in the U.S. It was always "get it out the door and we'll take care of it under warranty". That's bad enough in itself but getting it fixed wasn't all that easy or convenient. Want to guess why I'm driving a Honda today....?

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I've own Pedersoli's for over 20 years and presently have 10 in my safe. All are fine and accurate rifles with most BPCR's required lots of fine tuning and development. I've never had a reason to cuss any of them for poor anything or "bad" manufacture, never broken a firing pin, nothing.

My last purchase was a 44/40 Lightning in 2013 which with slight tuning now feeds and functions perfectly.

I agree with KW, there is bound to be a bad rifle from any maker but I think in a lot of cases, our expectations in many cases as shooters, are above the manufacturers specifications for their product.

In Australia, the volume of sales of the Pedersoli Hiwalls is very low and I have heard from at least 3 owners who can't get them to shoot well. I pass on results of my own testing and volia, results have improved considerably.

[Griff411]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but my experience in other areas is that you tend to hear a lot more about people who have had problems with a product than people who have not. When people have issues, they talk about it more than when everything is working well.

Griff

[guninhand]

guninhand, I have an Italian rifle with a chamber much the same as yours, if you want to shoot grease groove bullets, then shortening starline brass to about 2.25 will work alright, the thing really comes alive with Norma basic brass shortened to the same length and loaded with bore diameter patched bullets. The Norma brass shortened that far makes the case neck walls to thick for grease groove bullets.
To find the length you need start with a full lengh 2.4 case and a bullet seated to the driving band, keep trimming the case until that dummy round will drop straight into the chamber and allow the breech block to close without resistance. Then trim about another .010 to be sure the case mouth doesn't get pulled up into the leed. You'll be able to see if the cases are to long after firing as there will be a thin drawn ring at the case mouth. The bottom end of that ring is the maximum length of your case.
Sometimes we just have to do what is necessary to deal with the hand that has been dealt to us.

Respectfully sir, I am confused by your suggestion. I fired about 30 rounds in the first rifle, and ones seated to the first drive band dropped in fully with no resistance. It was also the same as with ones I loaded exposing 1, then 3, grease groves. I don't see what there would be to present resistance. Virgin cases (I annealed them first) were mostly around 2.398 and only 3 or 4 were found to have gone over 2.40 after firing, 2.404 being one. Is the maximum overall cartridge length in your gun also around 3.8 inches?

[Don McDowell]

Ok I was speaking of a 45-70 chamber, my mistake. Might suggest you try cutting down 2.6 or 2 7/8 cases, if you find that long chamber to be causing excessive leading and loss of accuracy, if there is no problem then no harm no foul. I just got tired of the excessive leading and one day just by chance dropped a 45-90 into the chamber of that rifle and it dang near chambered... found the problem. If it helps you then it was worth the cost you paid, if not sorry I will not refund your money.

[EDG]

One reason for hearing more noise about Pedersoli is probably statistical.
They probably sell 100 rifles for each sold out of Shiloh.

[Don McDowell]

One reason for hearing more noise about Pedersoli is probably statistical.
They probably sell 100 rifles for each sold out of Shiloh.

That's probably true, but then you also have to consider what we've read from the Pedersoli guys complaining, the lucky ones bought from Cabela's and got their money back, the rest are either set in the corner of the safe somewhere or listed on gunbroker at a firesale price, or have been rebarreled etc. The odd Shiloh that left the factory wrong, was sent back and the mistake fixed, no questions asked, no need to complain in public...

[EDG]

Yeah but you are talking about 100,000 rifles versus 1000 rifles.

[NSB]

One reason for hearing more noise about Pedersoli is probably statistical.
They probably sell 100 rifles for each sold out of Shiloh.

I doubt that. My personal problem with Pedersoli goes deeper than that. They have a very poor set up for warranty repair. They aren't even returned to the same state the gunsmith who fixes them lives in (at least the lever guns aren't/weren't). I doubt that statistically they have as few defects per hundred or per thousand guns. Pedersoli is nearly impossible to get a hold of if you have a problem. If you're lucky you'll get a reply to an email after several days telling you where to ship the gun. I've bought two Pedersoli 86/71 lever guns...both returned as defective, two High Walls....both returned as defective, and two Sharps....both worked fine with no problems. Six guns and four defects. Does Shiloh or C. Sharps produce defects at that percentage? I don't think so.

[Don McDowell]

Yeah but you are talking about 100,000 rifles versus 1000 rifles.
Seriously doubt Pedersoli has imported 100,000 rifles into this country if you counted all the muzzle loaders.
Out of all the competitors at the NRA bptr national championships, there were 3 Italian rifles... speaks volumes don' it?

[Gunlaker]

I have no idea how many Persoli's are in this country, but I do know that Shiloh has made a lot more than 1000 rifles. They make more than most people think. After the first 10,000 they changed the serial number format ( B suffix rather than B prefix ), and that is only after the current owners took over the operation.

Either way, I hope that your problems get sorted out and that you end up with a good rifle wherever it comes from.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Guaging by the serial numbers on my 2 shilohs about 10 years difference in age, they turn out something close to 1000 per year.

[Red River Rick]

It never fails.

Every time anyone mention's a problem with a Pedersoli, a few selected Sharps owners jump in a BASH the $hit out of them, rather than try to help the OP out.:(

Awesome..............what a great group we have here!

RRR

[Don McDowell]

It never fails.

Every time anyone mention's a problem with a Pedersoli, a few selected Sharps owners jump in a BASH the $hit out of them, rather than try to help the OP out.:(

Awesome..............what a great group we have here!

RRR

Rick, want to show me a post where anybody has bashed the Pedersolis?

[NSB]

It never fails.

Every time anyone mention's a problem with a Pedersoli, a few selected Sharps owners jump in a BASH the $hit out of them, rather than try to help the OP out.:(

Awesome..............what a great group we have here!

RRR
I don't own a Shiloh or a C. Sharps. I have purchased six new Pedesoli rifles and had four bad ones. I think I paid for the right to say something about them. FYI...I purchased one used one also. It was a Sharps model and it was OK. I've had good luck with the Sharps and horrible luck with the High Walls and the 86/71 lever guns.....100% bad on those models. Sounds like I was lucky with those.

[Gunlaker]

NSB, I'll bet it has to do with how long they've been making the various models. I know a number of people who shoot Ped 1874's and Rolling Blocks without issues. I've only ever seen one of the highwalls in person.

Chris.

[EDG]

Not really unless you think that 100,000 Pedersoli customers should show up at the NRA championships.


Seriously doubt Pedersoli has imported 100,000 rifles into this country if you counted all the muzzle loaders.
Out of all the competitors at the NRA bptr national championships, there were 3 Italian rifles... speaks volumes don' it?

[NSB]

NSB, I'll bet it has to do with how long they've been making the various models. I know a number of people who shoot Ped 1874's and Rolling Blocks without issues. I've only ever seen one of the highwalls in person.

Chris.
I totally agree. My bone of contention is that they shouldn't go out the door unless they know they are made correctly and will function as expected. I worked for 40 years in quality control as an engineer, manager, and product development. If you do all the work up front correctly, the parts you put in the box will work. Being a new model is no excuse at all. I developed a lot of new products and parts that had failure rates of less than 6ppm. Two of the guns I had, the 86/71s, would not even feed out of the mag tube. Taking the guns apart it was soon apparent why....the parts were poorly machined and aligned. They couldn't work...ever. There is no excuse for these even getting out the door. They can't be checking anything. Quality levels like this are inexcusable.

[bigted]

well seems like this has the opportunity to become another hair pulling affair. lets go back to the OP for the problem and see if some good info can be gleaned from this.

originally the OP wanted advise on which boolit mold to buy for his rifle. couple suggestions were given and then ...

OP posted a photo of his chamber which looked very much like another chamber then what was the marked chamber on his rifle. then ...

suggestion were posted that just maybe the chamber was wrong in machining so the OP sent his rifle back for replacement ... then ...

after getting his second rifle with what appears to be the same chamber he was directed to return the rifle for a full refund ... then ...

folks decided to begin the old argument about the differences between the italian and American builders and their repair policy's ... then ...

we find us winding the spring for a good ol fashion difference in opinion concerning the return/repair differences between these builders and their corporations ... now ...

maybe we can explore the original posters problem in the chamber dimensions ... to wit ... is this an example of the chambers that pedrosoli now puts in their rifles on purpose? it follows that IF this is the "new" chambers ... then the thing to do is to determine this and if so then decide IF it be prudent to try to obtain loading procedures to allow this "new" chamber to shoot well. ... or ...

if this is indeed an example of just plain poor workmanship then the advise is to be a just and correct plan ... do no business with this company till the problems are positively corrected and the published problems are stated to allow feelings of confidence in the folks at pedrosoli to return.

no reason to have need to "re-work" a new rifle to make it work. specially when the rifle is around the same price of "other" builders that have none of these problems ...[if problems at pedrosoli exist]...

i see nothing of the sort of "MINE IS BETTER THEN YOURS" going on. as a matter of fact ... if it were cars we were talking about ... then the cost and return/repair policy's would definitely be prudent to read/talk about. and nobody would have a sniffle about such discussion with a person that asked advise from others ... whats the difference here fella's ?

so here is my "advise" to the ORIGINAL POSTER ... if you got your money back from purchase of the pedrosoli that did not meet your expectations then ... take that money and plunk it down on a builder of great reputation and excellent customer relations. ask copious questions as to which builder to go with and why as well as examining products from them to see if they might provide your expected performance and looks.

it would still be a great opportunity for us to find out what the current chamber policy's are concerning pedrosoli. just for information and correct discussion of chambers from this builder. then we could all be "informed" with our opinions and be a bit more correct in the advise we give concerning them.

here is hoping that the OP gets satisfaction from his endeavor and that a rifle of good built comes into his possession. i hope sir that your fun factor increases and that the trail will be less bumpy in the future.

[Gunlaker]

NSB, I know what you mean. I've bought a number of rifles that obviously had no Q/A pass on them. A couple of Marlins (jm built) that would not feed rounds, a single shot with a poorly fit extractor that didn't work, and a single shot takedown rifle that had obviously never had it's barrel screwed on after fitting the wood.

All of those problems should have been caught before the rifles were shipped. From a manufacturing point of view it's much cheaper to fix problems before they get to the customer.

[guninhand]

May as well close off this thread by telling you guys my solution. The original dealer honored his warranty and gave a full refund. When I went looking for other new 45-90's the only thing I came up with was a dealer with a gunsmith on the premises, and the only suitable rifle was the Pedersoli Long Range. I explained my previous experience and he would do a chamber cast of the prospective rifle, but if it was another bummer, I'd still owe $45 plus tax for the smithing. I was going to go for it but then the thought of maybe being out over $50 for a gun that has a high dollar value but is **** was too bitter to accept.

Now my shooting buddy has a Farmingdale Shiloh Sharps Long Range in 45-110 he's been trying to sell to get money to go to the Quigley this year. I originally declined it because it is fairly light, 10.3 lbs by my bathroom scale, (he thinks it's 11Lbs) and I don't like using any filler (except for Pufllon). Gun comes with 54 brass and dies. So dang it, I just bought it at a mighty good price and I can get Ron Smith to put a blued octagon barrel in 45-90 on it. Before I ship it off I'll try some rounds this weekend to see just what the recoil is. My friend was willing to let me shoot it first but I'm not comfortable with that.

Hope I can get it back in time for DCRA competition this year. The Americans lead by Dave Gullo usually come up and always kick Canadian butt. If my gun is ready at least I can dream.:grin:

[Don McDowell]

guninhand, if you got ahold of Shiloh and made arrangements to send that rifle in for rebarreling when they are running the weight of barrel you want, then your gun stays all original. And the cost to have them rebarrel a rifle is well within line of what a gunsmith charges for an off brand barrel

[hickstick_10]

I beleive theres a Shiloh warranty smith in Saskatchewan as well, he may be able to install a factory barrel for you.

[Red River Rick]

I beleive theres a Shiloh warranty smith in Saskatchewan as well, he may be able to install a factory barrel for you.

Hikstick_10:

Your probably referring to Leo Bumphrey, owner of Boomer's Bullets. He has some ties with Shiloh, but I don't think he has the capabilities to do a rebarrel job.

Guninhand:

Ron Smith may take a while, last person I know of, that had Ron do a re-barrel job.......................took a year!

So you may want to double check before taking the plunge.

RRR

[guninhand]

Don McDowell, I don't know the restrictions on having smith work done in the US. No problem to take a gun in and out with a ATF form6, but an unaccompanied gun is an unknown, plus the Cdn dollar is down 10% and falling.

RRR, I still got my Miroku BPCR in 45-70 to use in DCRA, and it shoots pretty good out to 800 meters. I figure may as well go with the barrel maker with the best reputation.

[Gunlaker]

I would be happy to wait a year for an RKS barrel :-). I've got two and they are really good shooters. I've been thinking of getting a .45 cal gain twist barrel from him for one of my highwalls. First I've got to blow the budget on another MVA scope though.

What part of Canada are you in? I'm in B.C. And have given thought to the big DCRA match, but it's probably a week's drive each direction :-)

Chris.

[guninhand]

Chris, I'm in New Brunswick. It's only an 11 drive or so to Connaught range for me. Flying might be an option. You could ship your ammo to DCRA Shirley Blvd. beforehand.

[Gunlaker]

I'd watched the luggage handlers enough that I'd never trust them with my rifles. Even in my Pelican case :-).

Chris.