Pretty much another 9mm vs .45 ACP debate.....

[clownbear69]

....But the choice of caliber is only part of my question tonight.

Lets say it war time within the US, and you have to get geared up to go to war. You already picked your primary firearm but now its time to choose your side arm. While it isn't your main line of defense you never know when you might need. The following two firearms are on the table:

Sig MK25 (in essence a P226R)
weight: 34.4 oz
Caliber: 9mm
capacity: 15-20 rounds (depending which magazine)
light of your choice
Has night sights

Springfield Armory Light weight Operator (with rail)
weight: 31 oz
caliber: .45 ACP
capacity: 7-10 rounds (depending which magazine)
light of your choice
has night sights

Now keep this in mind you are using it on US soil so you availability (no matter which one) might be limited and may have to go to reloading and potentially casting with it but still needs to run reliable.

When you make your choice state it but the reason or reasons why. Anyone can pick it very rarely its done with any thought.

I chose these two because they are proven (well at least in the 1911 platform in general) in our own military over the years. Glock is not on the list because it gets simply too much publicity anyways.

Moderators: if this topic belongs to another part of the forum better by all means move it.

[olereb]

I would choose the 45acp. I carry and shoot 1911 platforms a lot so I am familiar and accurate with that,i already reload a lot of 45acp and have tons of supplies on hand and I prefer the knockdown punch that a 45acp has compared to a 9mm.

[clownbear69]

I would choose the 45acp. I carry and shoot 1911 platforms a lot so I am familiar and accurate with that,i already reload a lot of 45acp and have tons of supplies on hand and I prefer the knockdown punch that a 45acp has compared to a 9mm.

just a rebuttal and not in favor of either or: Wouldn't you be worried to reload double the times compared to the Sig (20 rounds vs 2-10 rounders)?

[olereb]

just a rebuttal and not in favor of either or: Wouldn't you be worried to reload double the times compared to the Sig (20 rounds vs 2-10 rounders)?

That doesn't bother me,most of the guys I see at the range are such bad shots with their high capacity guns I figure that right there makes us even if i'm actually hitting what I shoot at and they are missing more than half of what they are shooting at. I know its not everyone but way to many people that carry the high capacity 9mm guns are not good shots and a lot of it has to do with the attitude that they don't need to be because they have so many bullets. I have several friends that are active and retired military and every one of them would take the 1911 over the 9mm,even though you would have less rounds with the 1911.

[Garyshome]

I have not used either. I would use what i have!

[clownbear69]

That doesn't bother me,most of the guys I see at the range are such bad shots with their high capacity guns I figure that right there makes us even if i'm actually hitting what I shoot at and they are missing more than half of what they are shooting at. I know its not everyone but way to many people that carry the high capacity 9mm guns are not good shots and a lot of it has to do with the attitude that they don't need to be because they have so many bullets. I have several friends that are active and retired military and every one of them would take the 1911 over the 9mm,even though you would have less rounds with the 1911.

Fair enough thanks for your input

[clownbear69]

I have not used either. I would use what i have!

so you don't have or never used a 9mm or .45?

[Catshooter]

Mmm. Not an easy call, as neither are ones I have or would pick.

I guess I would go with the SIG. I do like the 45, but 1911s that aren't built to Mr. Browning's specs are many times not as reliable as they could be.


Cat

[clownbear69]

Mmm. Not an easy call, as neither are ones I have or would pick.

I guess I would go with the SIG. I do like the 45, but 1911s that aren't built to Mr. Browning's specs are many times not as reliable as they could be.

Cat

Rebuttal: Remember its a Springfield not a Kimber. The tight of the 1911 the easier grime and grit will stop it. Out of the 1911s ive dealt with the Kimber performed the poorest. The 1911 has also seen some serious differences from the first introduction to now. So few to nothing will have exactly JMB specs. Also wouldn't you rather have the better mass retention and expansion over the 9mm?

[Love Life]

I'd take the sig so I could stack a grip load of 9mm. Is it TEOTWAWKI? If that is the case, than I wouldn't feel handicapped with either one.

Poke holes in living things and they die. Sometimes they die fast, sometimes they die slow, sometimes the drop, sometimes they run around the street and jump in a car and drive a block or two.

If I could choose something else it would be a Glock. To not include them in a discussion because " Glock is not on the list because it gets simply too much publicity anyways." is a poor reason. They are damn fine fighting guns.

[Jupiter7]

Me and true da/SA guns don't get along. So for me it's 1911, but thats what I shoot best. Fwiw, I run single stack 45's with 10rd mags against plastic double stack nines in competition, I'm only slower on the reloads. But for me it comes down to the famous quote, "you can't miss fast enough to win". I think the compromise would be a doublestack .40 1911. If I can get my ducks in a row, I'll be getting a STI eagle.... Still debating .40 vs. 9mm.

[clownbear69]

I'd take the sig so I could stack a grip load of 9mm. Is it TEOTWAWKI? If that is the case, than I wouldn't feel handicapped with either one.

Poke holes in living things and they die. Sometimes they die fast, sometimes they die slow, sometimes the drop, sometimes they run around the street and jump in a car and drive a block or two.

If I could choose something else it would be a Glock. To not include them in a discussion because " Glock is not on the list because it gets simply too much publicity anyways." is a poor reason. They are damn fine fighting guns.

Glock has many flaws within it that I personally don't like. Plus I look at it this way. for a Pure SHTF situation being the most popular firearm in north America, wouldn't be to hard to find one. Also out of the many discussions I've read when Glock is in play is "get a glock because its a glock". meaning ive seen a lot of people suggesting it based on name alone and nothing else.

And before you ask: the flaws I personally don't like is the unsupported chamber and the grip angle. But specially when it comes to the .45/10mm the size of the frame is huge.

[MtGun44]

1911 wins for ergo and caliber reasons. If you can use HPts, the gap is narrowed
massively on impact performance, with military ball, 9mm falls far behind.

Bill

[clownbear69]

Me and true da/SA guns don't get along. So for me it's 1911, but thats what I shoot best. Fwiw, I run single stack 45's with 10rd mags against plastic double stack nines in competition, I'm only slower on the reloads. But for me it comes down to the famous quote, "you can't miss fast enough to win". I think the compromise would be a doublestack .40 1911. If I can get my ducks in a row, I'll be getting a STI eagle.... Still debating .40 vs. 9mm.

The .40 vs 9mm debate I had awhile ago when I got my PPQ M1. I chose the .40. My reasoning and im still ending up correct was availability of ammo. I bought before the panic and 9 and 45 went quick .40 was last to go and the first one to get on and stay on the shelf.

[waksupi]

just a rebuttal and not in favor of either or: Wouldn't you be worried to reload double the times compared to the Sig (20 rounds vs 2-10 rounders)?

Shoot 'em once with a .45, they stay shot.

[Love Life]

^^Truth.

Who says get a Glock because it's a Glock? I say get a Glock because they are the bomb diggity. If not a Glock then an older steel frame S&W auto. However; I'm drifting.

Roll with the Sig.

[clownbear69]

1911 wins for ergo and caliber reasons. If you can use HPts, the gap is narrowed
massively on impact performance, with military ball, 9mm falls far behind.

Bill

Rebuttal: Have you had handled and shot the Mk25? the ergos are fantastic. Plus aside from ergos much easier for field disassembly

[Love Life]

So is this all hypothetical or are planning on buying one of the two?

If hypothetical, I would get some back up shurikens.

[clownbear69]

^^Truth.

Who says get a Glock because it's a Glock? I say get a Glock because they are the bomb diggity. If not a Glock then an older steel frame S&W auto. However; I'm drifting.

Roll with the Sig.

Many. and it was not just on various forums saying that. Also where I heard it the most was when I was selling guns. They (customers) wanted a Glock because they are the best and they based that off a suggestion from a friend and shot nothing else. Ive had many people suggest to me I should get a G19 over the PPQ just because. I did shoot it with Win Rangers. Shot it very accurately but got "glock bite" and too small.

Also why with the sig over the 1911 then?

[clownbear69]

So is this all hypothetical or are planning on buying one of the two?

If hypothetical, I would get some back up shurikens.

Planning. buddy has both and he is who I roll with rather of some consistence between us.

[Love Life]

Capacity. I've been in firefights, and capacity is king. I'm sure a small percentage can draw, aim, squeeze, and kill with their 1911 while rds are coming at them, but it will be a very small percentage. Unless they train a lot they will do the stop and pause when its reload time and probably forget to take cover and stuff.

There is hypothetical coolness, and there is winning gunfights. Most gunfights aren't like the movies.

[Rainier]

.45 vs 9mm - either will work but by shooting .45's in my opinion your shooting pre-expanded 9mm - think about it.
For me I don't care for the "feel" of the Sig but if the world went to hell in a hand basket tomorrow and I had to choose between my Glock 19 and Springfield 1911... Well, I'd make either work and can't say which I'd choose. I can say my prayer is that I never have to choose.
Just my two cents...

[Larry Gibson]

MtGun44 & Waksupi took the words right out of my mouth.........

if you live long enough there should be lots of bad guy's 9mms with ammo laying around anyways............I carried a handgun in bad situations (notice there is a M1911A1 on my right hip in the avatar and I was carrying an M60!) and felt it was only there to fight my way back to my rifle which I shouldn't have gotten away from in the 1st place.........

Larry Gibson

[clownbear69]

MtGun44 & Waksupi took the words right out of my mouth.........

if you live long enough there should be lots of bad guy's 9mms with ammo laying around anyways............I carried a handgun in bad situations (notice there is a M1911A1 on my right hip in the avatar and I was carrying an M60!) and felt it was only there to fight my way back to my rifle which I shouldn't have gotten away from in the 1st place.........

Larry Gibson

M60 is always a win. But I understand what you are saying.

[Rainier]

MtGun44 & Waksupi took the words right out of my mouth.........

if you live long enough there should be lots of bad guy's 9mms with ammo laying around anyways............I carried a handgun in bad situations (notice there is a M1911A1 on my right hip in the avatar and I was carrying an M60!) and felt it was only there to fight my way back to my rifle which I shouldn't have gotten away from in the 1st place.........

Larry Gibson

Amen... Only reason to use your sidearm is because you just emptied all 20 mags and your buddy won't share any of his.

[Piedmont]

Capacity. I've been in firefights, and capacity is king. I'm sure a small percentage can draw, aim, squeeze, and kill with their 1911 while rds are coming at them, but it will be a very small percentage. Unless they train a lot they will do the stop and pause when its reload time and probably forget to take cover and stuff.



This is the internet, and the castboolit forum at that. We are all stone cold killers. Rambo was a piker. Give us some twisted bark and broken bottle and all hell will break loose.

[garym1a2]

Glock 22's are in 40, you can also get a 9mm conversion barrel for them that works. If I was stuck buying a Sig I would get one in 40 and a 9mm conversion barrel for it. When 9mm ammo is hard to find you can probably find 40 S&W as that's what most cops carry.

[6bg6ga]

Shoot 'em once with a .45, they stay shot.


Can't argue with this logic.

[Who's this Guy ?]

Either one will do just fine

[Dan Cash]

... I would use what i have!

Picking a handgun using the premise fronted by the OP is flawed. Gary has it right, use what you have. If you don't have something in a caliber that can be readily resupplied, you soon will have through battlefield pick up or else won't need it because you are dead. Resupply will be critical in the early stages of a civil conflict as OPTEMPO will preclude the luxury of reloading/casting. If cast reloads are your planned resource, you better thave them put together going in.

[bob208]

I remember when you said .45acp and that meant colt government model. not all the letters and numbers. do all the letters and numbers make them shoot better? or does it just make the mall ninjas want them more?

me I would pick what I have a colt .45acp or my browning hi-power.

[clownbear69]

Glock 22's are in 40, you can also get a 9mm conversion barrel for them that works. If I was stuck buying a Sig I would get one in 40 and a 9mm conversion barrel for it. When 9mm ammo is hard to find you can probably find 40 S&W as that's what most cops carry.

If you want to go to the conversion route rather have an M&P 40 and buy factory 9mm barrel and .357 sig barrel. The two of them is about the same price as a glock aftermarket barrel

[NSP64]

The 9mm
The same reason 2 years ago I got rid of my odd caliber weapons and only have nato standard plus 40 S&W now.

[375supermag]

Two points...

Whatever you choose, practice with it (a lot!). And not just off a bench...practice standing up one-handed, two-handed, weak-handed, etc.
And when you are able to consistently put all your shots in the kill zone at 25 yds. , practice some more ( a lot!).


If you expect to get in a lot of gunfights, expect to lose one eventually (and maybe the first one). Old gunfighters were pretty rare back in the wild and wooly West. There is always somebody faster or a better shot or just luckier...

Gunfights are things to avoid...people get killed in gunfights.

Having said all that, I carry a full-size M1911 in .45ACP and will continue to carry it in a SHTF situation. I will also be carrying a Combat Commander in .45ACP. I know the platform and have confidence in the cartridge.

[bhn22]

If I can make my own ammo, or be assured an adequate supply somehow, I'd take the 45.

If I have to scavenge ammo from the rotting corpses of my enemy, 9mm. Simply because that's what they're likely to be carrying. I too, rid myself of less likely to encounter calibers for precisely this reason.

[Love Life]

Fire superiority....

Accurate fire has suppressive qualities, quantity has a quality all it's own, pick your poison.

I'd rather do a quick 5 rd string to lower heads and allow me time to get some cover and only use 33% to 25% of my magazine. Then you can keep fighting, or if you have some homeys, suppress while they maneuver.

Do a 5 rd dump from the 1911 and you only got 2 left before a reload.

If I'm spec'd for war with my M4 with M203 attached, then sure, a 1911 would be cool. Heck, I wouldn't even pack a pistol if I had those weapons available to me.

If all I have is a pistol, then I want the high cap 9mm. You are fighting war in this scenario, right? In an ambush the 1st shot may be a kill shot, but getting surprised while moving would be a different story.

[clownbear69]

Two points...

Whatever you choose, practice with it (a lot!). And not just off a bench...practice standing up one-handed, two-handed, weak-handed, etc.
And when you are able to consistently put all your shots in the kill zone at 25 yds. , practice some more ( a lot!).


If you expect to get in a lot of gunfights, expect to lose one eventually (and maybe the first one). Old gunfighters were pretty rare back in the wild and wooly West. There is always somebody faster or a better shot or just luckier...

Gunfights are things to avoid...people get killed in gunfights.

Having said all that, I carry a full-size M1911 in .45ACP and will continue to carry it in a SHTF situation. I will also be carrying a Combat Commander in .45ACP. I know the platform and have confidence in the cartridge.

Actually my practice consists of very little bench rest. I only bench rest when I first get the firearm. Both on function point of aim and reload. No matter if I have a gun with 200 rounds in one magazine (impractical but making a point) or a gun with seven, I always practice with typically 5 rounds per magazine. Several reason for this. 1 easier to keep track how much ammo I have used in box. 2 it discourages me from shooting a lot because im doing a lot of reloading and 3 im practicing for a reload. Ive seen it a lot from people at the range where they look comfy with there gun until they reload. I use the same principle with my CETME (current primary). Also besides the different ways to hold it, I also elevate my heartrate. It could be from run and gun (fun) or if too many people are at the range I jog and then shoot (same principle but less moving). I also practice at different times of day and weather, with and with out gloves. Any time when you practice the same way over and over again you start thinking that way. when you change it up makes you more prepared. I do need to get snap caps and load that in a mag to simulated misfires/jams. A factor that many people tend to forget.

I haven't been able to get out though since I moved to NM. when I was a member at Ft. Bliss Rod/Gun club I went a lot and did a lot of this. Most notable was shooting 104 degree sunny day and that was with the wife first time.

Edit to add: also including holstering and unholster another skill many over shadow

[wv109323]

I prefer the .45ACP over the 9MM as far as a cartridge. When right the 1911 platform is reliable. I believe I could make a 1911 reliable with my experience. Since this is a sidearm and would be used in a CQC situations I like the .45 ACP. A bigger hole makes the blood leak faster. It does not matter you can miss more times with a high capacity 9MM, only the well placed shots make the difference.
I prefer the trigger on a 1911. I have many more reloading components for .45 ACP.

[pmer]

Neither would be on my table but if they were on the ground I'd grab them both!

[gray wolf]

I hate these threads, Use what you have and fight your way to someones full auto. Preferable a belt fed.
One that is big enough that you wont forget where you put it.

[Thumbcocker]

I never reply to these threads because having never been in harms way I do not feel qualified to respond. I always read them to see the experiences of them that has been there and done that.

[btroj]

This is more than 9 mm vs 45. You are comparing handguns too.

I prefer a 45 but I don't think in terms of combat. LL has a good point, can't ever have too much ammo. No such thing in a fire fight.

I wouldn't want either handgun listed but do have a 45 and a 9 mm. Oddly, neither one has a rail or a light.......

[Love Life]

Thumbcocker- All opinions are useful in these threads. I have learned many things from people "who haven't been there".

All I can really stress is whatever you choose, do IA drills and build your muscle memory. Stopping to think some situations will get you smoked. Muscle memory will keep you alive.

5,000 repetitions is the standard.

[HeavyMetal]

OK gonna put in my Two cents and some aren't going to like it, but here goes:

Magazine capacity is not a substitute for Marksmanship

Booilt diameter is not a substitute for Marksmanship

a 12 gauge is not a substitute for Marksmanship.

The 9mm being the current most issued police and military round is the choice here because of future availibility of both components and loaded ammo.

The pistol of choice is a 1911 Government model or Combat Commander shooters choice on either of these.

For the end of this disscussion all the other DA/SA DA only guns ( which were not proposed ) need to go where they should have when they hit the drawing board: in the waste basket!

There are other choices of course but none of them were offered so this is my answer to the OP original post.

[clownbear69]

Thumbcocker- All opinions are useful in these threads. I have learned many things from people "who haven't been there".

All I can really stress is whatever you choose, do IA drills and build your muscle memory. Stopping to think some situations will get you smoked. Muscle memory will keep you alive.

5,000 repetitions is the standard.

In bold needs to be expanded to that correct muscle memory will keep you alive. Incorrect muscle memory will get you killed as well. If you practice with incorrect/ poor posture, one eye vs two eyes, looking at you firearm during a reload etc is how it will be applied. Its like cheating on flash cards. sure you get the answer but didn't remember anything except the answer.

[dbosman]

I actually find these discussions informational and repetitive.
Here are my casual observations.

People who have survived battle, tend to say - use what you have and pick up what you can as you move away from the battle.
People who have been in service, but never in battle, tend to say - use with what I trained with.
People who seriously shoot usually say why they pick such and such.
People who watch movies will be seriously traumatized if ever shot at.

I say - lead them to the safe and beat them to death with the golf club standing next to it.

[Catshooter]

Rebuttal: Remember its a Springfield not a Kimber. The tight of the 1911 the easier grime and grit will stop it. Out of the 1911s ive dealt with the Kimber performed the poorest. The 1911 has also seen some serious differences from the first introduction to now. So few to nothing will have exactly JMB specs. Also wouldn't you rather have the better mass retention and expansion over the 9mm?

Kimber, Springfield, blah blah blah. Pick a brand, and unless it's old, some work, some don't. Many people will post 'Mine has been perfect!" and just as many will post "Mine sucked, sold it!"

Bottom line is that JMB could design a gun that was excellent at not malfing. Many people since him think they know better and most don't.

Don't get me wrong. My only 1911 is my father's Springfield. I love it. I set it up the way JMB designed it so that itself is the only tool needed to completely strip itself. Has never failed me.

Sure I like 45 over 9mm. But except for the FN FNP all the double stack 45s are toooooooo big for me.

And capacity wins out over caliber as long as you're talking from 9 to 45. I can accept the 40 as a nice compromise but the 9 is fine too.

Ending a gunfight with too much ammo on hand is like saying the weapon was too reliable. Yes it's true that it's good solid hits that count for stopping the bad guys, but Love Life is correct in saying that it's mighty handy to be able to send five rounds downrange to get them to duck while you take cover/get off the X. That's the voice of 'been there, shot at.' Having more on board can very easily makes the difference in survival.

Real rounds buzzing at you with full intent to harm you isn't conducive to good marksmanship either.


Cat

[6bg6ga]

To me its a matter of knock down power. Shoot someone with a 45 and they will probably stay down. The word practice should be a given. If you carry you should be an accurate shooter and if your not it doesn't make any difference if you have 6 rounds or 16 because you will not hit what you point at. I shoot in the 94-96% range at 25 yards free hand. I'm comfortable with a 45 Colt officers model. My son however constantly hounds me about the necessity to own a Glock with more magazine capacity.

Back to the subject.... I'll take a 45 to a 9 any day of the week but that is my opinion and maybe one not shared by many here. Its all personal choice in my opinion. Ten round of 9mm might equal 3 rounds of 45acop.

[pmer]

I'd take the 45 too, especially from a casting point of view. Sticking close to clownbear69's premise there is another weapon and I guess things aren't going well if the side arm has to come out. It doesn't seem like a CCW situation where to me Glock is king inside 10 - 13 yards.

I'd think almost any 1911 no matter how tight it is would fire 4 or 5 magazines of LRN before it would stop. Just think how many GI 45s got dropped in the sand or snow, retrieved and used right away.

[daniel lawecki]

1911 of coarse helped win a few wars and I practice shooting standing out to 50yrds everytime I go to the range. Both of mine love cast boolits from 200swc -230rn.

[375RUGER]

1911 of course, because I have the most experience with it.
.

Thumbcocker- All opinions are useful in these threads. I have learned many things from people "who haven't been there".

All I can really stress is whatever you choose, do IA drills and build your muscle memory. Stopping to think some situations will get you smoked. Muscle memory will keep you alive.

5,000 repetitions is the standard.

Wise words. All the rep I did with my Browning Pump Shotgun as a teenager I blame on the reason I can shoot that shotgun so well and others just so-so. That and it's the only shotgun I used/owned for 20 years or better. I wish I had pulled some of Dad's shotguns out and did as much practice with them. I carved the handling of that BPS into my muscle memory with a backhoe, It's deep.

[clownbear69]

I guess I have to ask for those who cast both 9mm and .45 ACP is there an easier one to cast?

And yes I know about the 1911s service record but don't discount the SIGs record either. Remember it was the 226 and our current m9 (92) and the 92 won out on cost. Also during this time (if im getting my facts straight) the SEALs didn't like how the M9 operated in the field and when SIG route. Although it seems many SF guys from what ive read (read with a grain of salt) have been many different .45 and not necessarily the 1911

[9.3X62AL]

Anyone reasonably expecting an armed encounter that ONLY brings a sidearm is a damn fool.

[seaboltm]

I go with the SIG. I like 1911's, but I think there are better options out there today. Dollar for dollar most any modern handgun is better than a 1911. From a casting standpoint, 9mm uses about half the lead of the 45ACP but is heck of a lot more than half effective. Let's say you get 90% of 45ACP effectiveness for 1/2 of the resources.

[scattershot]

Anyone reasonably expecting an armed encounter that ONLY brings a sidearm is a damn fool.


Good point!

[BNE]

One aimed shot with either will work. If you have access to both, which one do you do better with? Most of us can not shoot a gun before we buy it. I read all I can on a gun before buying. I've only had one gun that I hated before I finished the first clip, BUT that was painful. Take each one and shoot a few boxes through them. Your comfort and confidence is worth more than my opinion.

[robertbank]

Anyone reasonably expecting an armed encounter that ONLY brings a sidearm is a damn fool.

I do love these threads. I suspect most urban Americans caught in their fantasy SHTF sceanrios will die in car accidents on an interstate rushing off to the wilderness knowing that Bambi just had twins and will be the food source for their families. Average distance from home 10 miles. This assumes they get out of their neighbourhood and on to their interstate. Judging from my experiences at rush hour in Houston, they may die of hunger before they get killed in a car accident.

Me I would just stay at home, survive until I ran out of food then likely sit down with my wife and a bottle of good scotch and watch the sunset on a great run.

On that happy note, Merry Christmas, Santa comes to-nite.

Bob

[Mk42gunner]

I would go with the SIG. Well broken in 226's just seem to run well.

More importantly would be the rifle, I would be carrying the best magazines I could buy, beg, borrow, or outright steal.

Robert

[dbosman]

In my experience, both are easy to cast and lube, but the .45 is easier to get a consistent load for, and a load that cycles in a semi-auto.
Other peoples mileage will vary, I'm sure.


I guess I have to ask for those who cast both 9mm and .45 ACP is there an easier one to cast?

[Love Life]

9mm is easy cheese. A little bit of lead, a little bit of HI-TEK, a RCBS 124 gr RN without gas check, some HP-38, and DONE!!!

I also use a RCBS 124 gr RN GC mould lubed with speed green of HP-38.

For the 45 acp cast bullet of .452 diameter, lube it with something, stick over just about any good powder, and you're done.

[Catshooter]

Anyone reasonably expecting an armed encounter that ONLY brings a sidearm is a damn fool.

If I'm reasonably expecting an armed encounter I'll take a fast car in the other direction, thank you very much. :)


Cat

[Tazman1602]

Quite frankly I believe a pistol is what you use to get back to the rifle that never should have left your hands to begin with.............

.45ACP and lots of mags please.............

Art

[rintinglen]

I would take an equivalent weight in magazines for my primary weapon. Except if you need to hide it in a sock or a pocket, a pistol is poor substitute for a rifle.

[9.3X62AL]

If I'm reasonably expecting an armed encounter I'll take a fast car in the other direction, thank you very much. :)


Cat

As would I, Senor Cat Croaker.

RobertBank, my remarks weren't meant to address a SHTF or a Red Dawn scenario--I don't believe things will get to that point. I was referring to normal life as it occurs presently.......and as it took form in late March 2007, on a back-country drive just north of Silverwood Lake in the San Bernardino NF. Marie and I were giving our new pickup truck its first dust bath :) on a backroad and passed by two 4WD trucks parked alongside the road head-to-tail, as if the drivers were chatting cab-to-cab. Within seconds of passing, I saw one of these trucks reversing in our direction, accellerating rapidly as if to overtake us. Hmmmm. I sped up, thinking this fool would turn poorly and lose control. No such luck, he stayed with us, running 25-30 MPH at times--BACKING. This continued for over a mile. OK, I'm not buying what this fruitbat is trying to sell. I told Marie to get the Mini-14 out of its case behind the seat. As she raised it over the headrests, I imagine the rifle with 30-rd magazine already in place came into view. Brake lights came on behind us, and that is the last we saw of that likely meth-addled moron. They are out there, and they don't require a collapse of civilization to go predatory on you. When you jump into the ocean or step into the back-country, you enter the food chain--and not always at the top of same. Just sayin'.

[jmort]

9.3x62AL

Right-On great story. Tweeker thought you-all would be easy pickings.

[tygar]

....But the choice of caliber is only part of my question tonight.

Lets say it war time within the US, and you have to get geared up to go to war. You already picked your primary firearm but now its time to choose your side arm. While it isn't your main line of defense you never know when you might need. The following two firearms are on the table:

Sig MK25 (in essence a P226R)
weight: 34.4 oz
Caliber: 9mm
capacity: 15-20 rounds (depending which magazine)
light of your choice
Has night sights

Springfield Armory Light weight Operator (with rail)
weight: 31 oz
caliber: .45 ACP
capacity: 7-10 rounds (depending which magazine)
light of your choice
has night sights

Now keep this in mind you are using it on US soil so you availability (no matter which one) might be limited and may have to go to reloading and potentially casting with it but still needs to run reliable.

When you make your choice state it but the reason or reasons why. Anyone can pick it very rarely its done with any thought.

I chose these two because they are proven (well at least in the 1911 platform in general) in our own military over the years. Glock is not on the list because it gets simply too much publicity anyways.

Moderators: if this topic belongs to another part of the forum better by all means move it.

No comparison! 1911, 45acp 230gr. Especially hardball to hardball 9 can't begin to touch the .45. Seen plenty of comparisons & .45s puts them down quicker, easier, & more of them are permanent. With the Win Black Talon's I still have & other +p HPs out there they are just super.

I carried one & believe me it got wet, muddy, dirty & probably some other nasties but always worked & put them down. In subguns like Tommies or Greasguns or the new stuff it will mess u up.

I got my first one around 61 as a freshman in HS & have owned at least 100+ & still have 15-20. I have owned a total of 5 9s. Browning Hi power, 3 of the absolute first Beretta 92FS's to come out (1 left NIB) & a Ruger pocket 9 w/laser.(actually kinda like it & do stick it in my jacket on occasion when to lazy or what ever to put on a .45 1911 or 325PD)

Have only famed a Sig once, it was OK, but not a 1911. The Glocks to me are totally off on fit, the trigger sucks & just feel klunky, but fairly accurate.

Just one last point - Marines & Seals & other Special Ops guys are carrying 1911s again, for a reason - I'm a Marine & 1911s all the way.

[robertbank]

9.3X62AL - yes I knew you weren't. We just don't run into as many situations like you described as often. Up here it does happen of course and more frequently then you might imagine. I do what I have to do when I travel in those areas which isn't to often. Our gun laws are, in some areas more restrictive then yours but if one uses some common sense, there are ways to ensure ones safety. I, as you know, have more concerns in the summer months with the four legged threats.

Merry Christmas Al to you and your family

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

And to you and yours, Bob!

We have our share of four-legged fur-bearing barracudas locally as well, though not nearly so large or so shag-nasty as British Columbia's. John Muir called them "shaggy freebooters", but he didn't discriminate--he called their diet items (sheep) "hooved locusts as well.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I haven't shot either of the OP choices ...

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnVT/Guns/Colt%201911%20Combat/oltCombat45MP452-200HP2_zpsfbcb4b06.jpg (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/ShawnVT/media/Guns/Colt%201911%20Combat/oltCombat45MP452-200HP2_zpsfbcb4b06.jpg.html)

[clownbear69]

thanks for all the input guys still cannot decide but that's how guns go

[Lead Fred]

Lets say it war time within the US, and you have to get geared up to go to war. You already picked your primary firearm but now its time to choose your side arm.

I do not like handguns, never have never will.

I have a Sig P220 in 45 ACP, because someday I may need to carry it.

We are still praying that day never comes

The tree boxes of Liberty:

The soap box, then the ballot box settles most wrongs, When all else fails..... the cartridge box

************************************************** ******

Go on you tube and watch the police shoot dogs several times with 40s, and not kill them. Ive seen my ole man pop many a dog, one shot, one kill with his 1911

My bud sold his 40 and bought a 45 after watching those videos