Making a point form die

[DAVE A]

Hello I want to try to make a 30 cal 9 or 10 ogive point form die for my S press and could really do with some advice,
my plan is to first cut the threads on the die body ( 5/8 x 24 ) then drill a hole for the ejection punch of about 2mm then turn the die round and step drill from 7mm to 2mm and then use a boring bar to true the hole and then ream ,
my questions are 1 is this the right approach 2 if yes then at what speed should I be reaming and 3 if not then what is the right approach
I have some 30mm high tensile steel spare that I can use for practice and some silver steel to make reamers so I am ready to go but any help would be more than welcome
Thanks
Dave.

[Cane_man]

Hi Dave... general approach is to step drill, then ream the ogive with a d-reamer or fluted reamer... you can step drill then drill the hole for the eject punch (edit: better to drill the hole for the eject punch first as this will be a guide for your d-reamer)... the difference maker for this die, imo, is how are you going to make the laps, as lapping is where the money is made with the point forming die... i like to use production bullets for laps, but the standard approach is to have a method to make them out of brass or aluminum... i would make 3 sizes of laps: 0.304, 0.299, and 0.294... i am working on a 30 cal swage die project now and this will be my approach

how i plan to do it is d-ream to with about 0.008 of final, or for 30 cal and this will put you at about 0.304 because boring or drilling will always be larger than what is intended... that gives you 0.004 for lapping... rough lap with approximately 600grit to 0.306, heat treat, then lap to 0.307 with 2000 gr, then get the final 0.001 or so with 5000 grit... you will want to make the following test probes to tell you where you are at with the lapping: 0.307, 0.306... that is what i would do

if you do a search CC and I had a few good threads going on this topic from this past summer

[DAVE A]

Thanks Cane man I'll search for the threads
Dave

[Cane_man]

try these:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?206144-need-some-machining-tips

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?207222-finally-got-my-point-forming-die-done&highlight=point+forming+die

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/search.php?searchid=986737

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?209562-Adventures-in-Ogives&highlight=point+forming+die

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?210316-Die-questions&highlight=point+forming+die

[customcutter]

Dave,

I'm not sure what silver steel is. Several people here have made reamers from different steels. I tried using W-1, and kept snapping them. It might have been that I had the wrong geometry for the cutting edge. The first one was a 4 flute reamer and I forgot to temper it back from full hardness. I finally was successful when I found a piece of 1/4" round HSS (lathe cutting bit), I used a pencil die grinder and ground the ogive that I wanted then ground 1/2 the diameter off to make a D-reamer. Then I finally got the geometry on the back of the reamer correct and it cuts great and isn't brittle. I snapped 4 or 5 before I finally tried the HSS. Keep us posted on your progress.

Hope this helps,
CC

[DAVE A]

Thanks cane man and CC
Silver steel is a medium carbon tool steel which I think is similar to W1 but I'm not sure, its easy to harden and temper and makes quite good reamers and dies ,I made a meplat trimmer recently and used a silver steel D reamer to create an ogive for the bullet to seat into to keep it aligned with the cutter and it came out ok
If I use silver steel for the reamers I can create a program on my cnc lathe and make any number of matching reamers and laps but this would be a problem with hss so silver steel it is for now ,i will be away from my lathe for the next few days due to family / Christmas commitments but when I get started on the die I will keep you all posted with any progress I make
Thanks again
Dave.

[marten]

Silver steel is fine, easy to machine and the hardening and tempering is a doddle. Most silver steel sold here (UK) is equivalent to O1.

[Cane_man]

cnc lathe, now that is the way to make reamers and laps!

[MOcaster]

With a CNC lathe, just get some gilding metal stock and machine your bullets. Now how many of us here could say we did that?

[DAVE A]

When I first converted my lathe to cnc I made some very nice looking brass boat tailed bullets but the lathe wasn't accurate enough at the time to keep tight tolerances, when I get back home I'll post some pictures
Dave

[DAVE A]

I finally managed to get to my lathe today and made a start on a reamer ,if my maths is correct it is about 8s http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/07/qa3asesu.jpg
And here is a picture of some brass bullets I made when I first converted the lathe to CNChttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/07/ety2a8yj.jpg

[BT Sniper]

Nice looking work there Dave!

I don't tend to give out too many secrets when it comes to how to make a point form die as I had to learn everything the hard way and it was a very difficult learning experience for me but I'll give you one tip. Do not drill your 2mm ejection hole from the back side of the die. You need to make sure this hole is in perfect alignment with the tip of your bullet cavity once the ogive is reamed. Better off to step drill your chamber then come in with the 2mm drill bit as the last hole to drill right before you ream the bullet cavity, atleast that is how I did it, your equipment might be able to keep everything true and center. No telling if you will be at the same zero on the die if you drill the 2mm hole first then turn your die around to bore the bullet cavity. CH-4d had challenges with this and they had CNC!

This is a CH 38 cal die, not off by much but you can see the angle
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/flaw001-1.jpg (http://s636.photobucket.com/user/BTSniper/media/flaw001-1.jpg.html)

and here was their last batch of 44 cal dies that caused them to scrap the entire batch and ultimately didn't make any more swage dies after that.
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1060086.jpg (http://s636.photobucket.com/user/BTSniper/media/P1060086.jpg.html)

You wouldn't think a small 2mm hole would wonder of the center line of your die but...... just my 2 cents!

I'm sure you will do well. Your pictures certainly look good!

Good shooting and swage on!

BT

[DAVE A]

Thanks for the good advice and encouragement BT !this is my first attempt at making a point form die so any and all advice is more than welcome I just hope my end result is even close to your work
Thanks again
Dave

[Cane_man]

looks awesome dave... cnc takes all the fun out of it, though! :grin:

[DAVE A]

Yes I can see your point but half the fun for me has been building the machine and learning how to use it ,
I found it very frustrating trying to cut threads on my mini lathe and it needed constant adjustment to keep any sort of accuracy now it still takes me a lot of time to program things in but when I get it right it's great when I get it wrong it is definitely not fun.
Dave

[Cane_man]

you did the cnc programming yourself?! me jelous, that is AWESOME :)

[customcutter]

Dave, that is some nice work. What type of lathe are you using? Did you buy a kit to do the CNC conversion? What type if you did? I bought a used (like new) Enco 9X42 mill last year that was being converted to CNC. I had to figure out how to finish the conversion, kept getting play in the ball screws, and finally eliminated it. Finally got my steppers working, then burnt two of them up. The mfg repaired them free of charge, even though I told them I damaged them and bought them used. I've been too busy with other projects to do anything else with it. Plan on using LinuxCNC for the control, but don't know beans about programming.

Keep us posted.

[DAVE A]

CC my lathe is my Chinese minilathe which I have been slowly converting over the last year http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/08/e8y3y6up.jpg
The program I am using is mach3 and trying to understand how to use it has been my biggest challenge ,fortunately a lot of the basic tasks are pre programmed and I just have to alter the dimensions but turning an ogive has proved to be a bit of a headache I had to input each line individually and there are a lot of lines but now it's done and saved so any future reamer blanks or laps should be easy
I'm sure there is an easier way but like you I have too many things on the go to spend the time learning
I also made a cnc milling attachment which works quite well but that will also be a major learning curvehttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/08/yry2uqu3.jpg
And here is a picture of what I used the old lathe motor forhttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/08/a2ypy9up.jpg

[DAVE A]

I decided to go with a 3 flute reamer this time but I will be making a D reamer just as soon as I get some more steel
I haven't hardened the reamer yet because it has to be done outside and it is still raining but I'm hoping to start on the die soonhttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/09/a4ene3a3.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/09/5yvu8e4e.jpg

[Cane_man]

dave that is a work of art!

dumb question: do you need to file some relief behind the cutting edge before you heat treat?

for the punch hole i just step drill as usual for the pointing die, then drill the eject punch hole last... but i only have to drill about 1/4" at that point with the insert dies that i use (they are not threaded but drop into the threaded died holder body)... need the longer 'aircraft' drill bits as the standard 4/64" bits are not long enough... have had really good success with the cobalt bits, go slow with lots of lube and clean often and it is not hard at all to get the eject hole centered...

[DAVE A]

Thanks Cane , if I'm honest I don't know about the relief this is all new to me but I will be using cobalt drill bits
I'm going to make a few reamers to try different types before I attempt to make the die,now the program is saved I'm hoping I can make duplicate reamer blanks and laps without too many adjustments
I will be making the die out of silver steel initially but I have found a tool steel which I think will be perfect ,it's called D6 in the UK it has a high carbon and chromium content and .75% tungsten and is air hardening but it's sensitive to over heating so I will have to get hold of ( make?) a temperature controlled kiln
Off topic a bit but I may actually get to do some shooting this weekend and it will be the first time shooting with bullets made from my own jackets so fingers crossed I will have some nice pictures to post
Dave

[customcutter]

Dave, here is a thread on ogives that has some info on relief of the cutting edge. As you will see, I broke several reamers, some probably because they didn't have any relief, and couldn't cut properly.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?209562-Adventures-in-Ogives&highlight=point+forming+die

OK, I've got to ask, how did you cut the flutes in your reamer? I'm guessing the milling attachment, is it CNC also?

Edit,

I dropped this project this summer and am just now getting back to it. If you notice the post dates. I'm hung up on trying to make repeatable ogives for the reamers and laps.

[DAVE A]

Thanks CC it looks like I will be doing some relief filing soon
The mill attachment is cnc but I just used an adjustable boring bar holder to mill the flutes, at first I tried to alter a facing program by adding a radius but I couldn't get it to do what I wanted so I ended up just going in at an angle along the ogive and then straight down the shank and repeated five times in .01" increments and when finished just rotated to the next position and so on .
On your last post on adventures in ogives you mentioned pictures?

[customcutter]

yes, still working on the base. Pics when I get it.