What is the bottom line on tumble Lube?

[Changeling]

After all the research on tumble Lube and the "Quest" project has anything came out so far beating "Felix" lube in .44 and up revolvers in the 1000 to 1600 fps catagory?

[btroj]

Let's see....

Tumble lube isn't usually used by those looking for extreme accuracy as much as it is used for ease of application, no need for a lubrisizer, and ability to do large numbers of bullets pretty fast.

The quest has absolutely nothing in common with tumble lube. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

The quest is, in my opinion, about finding a lube that does well over a wide temperature range. The quest isn't about having great accuracy at any one temp but rather about decent accuracy at any reasonable temperature. No bad cold barrel flyers and no lube purging.

As for large bore revolvers, they really haven't been used in the quest other than to see how they do as far as flinging off the bullet at the muzzle. I have fired ZERO groups with any revolver using a lube from the quest. Not a single one.

Felix lube has an excellent reputation in large bore handguns, just ask 44man what he uses. I have no doubt it will do well in about any temp range you can stand in a revolver.

Revolvers and rifles have a totally different lube requirement. Look at the work 44man is doing with Bens Red in his leveraction rifle. He found it did poorly in a revolver but does well in a rifle, that from a die hard Felix user.

I do have a lube I think will equal Felix in large bore revolvers but I'm not a good enough shot at longer ranges to prove that. Sadly, that lube is a failure in rifles above very low pressure loads.

Sorry for a long winded answer. The lube situation isn't simple enough to answer your question easily. Too many variables. Even to trying to compare at file and revolver in lube requirements is difficult, too many lubes do well in one but not the other.

[geargnasher]

After all the research on tumble Lube and the "Quest" project has anything came out so far beating "Felix" lube in .44 and up revolvers in the 1000 to 1600 fps catagory?

Your mileage will vary. That's the bottom line.

Gear

[igolfat8]

Let's see....

Tumble lube isn't usually used by those looking for extreme accuracy as much as it is used for ease of application, no need for a lubrisizer, and ability to do large numbers of bullets pretty fast.

So what lube and application method would be best for a .45 ACP Bullseye shooter looking for maximum accuracy?

[btroj]

I don't know that one method or lube is inherently better than another.

I would get a traditional lube sizer and use a traditional lube.

If you don't have a lubrisizer I would try a tumble in 45/45/10 and see how your gun likes it. If accuracy is acceptable I would run with it.

[NuJudge]

So what lube and application method would be best for a .45 ACP Bullseye shooter looking for maximum accuracy?

Are you sure you have no other considerations? If you don't mind a bit of smoke, I would suggest you initially try the NRA Formula, which is 50% Beeswax/50% Alox 2138F (actually Lubrizol has stopped making Alox 2138F, so most vendors are using Alox 350) through a lubrisizer. Probably the cheapest vendor is Lars on this forum, but there are others. There are others you might want to look at also, such as Lyman Ideal, which is less smoky, but on the Midway site it recommends a lubrisizer heater, which I never used with it.

Lee Liquid Alox is a very different product.

For maximum accuracy, size your bullets as little as possible. I try to cast to the size I want, and when using a Lyman or RCBS lubrisizer I frequently use a sizer die which is very slightly larger than the bullet.

[2wheelDuke]

I'd say the bottom line on tumble lube is that it's another tool in the box. I have a few TL designs in my lineup, and they're typically my plinker loads. Some people love tumble lube, some hate it. It's not the answer for everything, but it does great in some situations. I say use it where it works for you, don't use it where it doesn't.

[Changeling]

btrej and geargnasher, thanks for your response to my question.

[myg30]

Bottom line is lube them, load them , and shoot them ! If they good +1, if not then try another lube. Boolit fit is important !
In 45, the best is the one that works in your gun, with your boolits, cast as you do and loaded and lubed as you do. There is no miracle load or lube !...... well..... maybe lube !

Whats the best golf club to use ?

Mike

[tygar]

I don't know that one method or lube is inherently better than another.

I would get a traditional lube sizer and use a traditional lube.

If you don't have a lubrisizer I would try a tumble in 45/45/10 and see how your gun likes it. If accuracy is acceptable I would run with it.

OK guys I'm going to throw a fat one down the middle.

What about sizing in the luber/sizer using whatever lube you use & then tumble lube with Alox?

When sizing the bullet & it really sizes it you have the smooth sides of bare lead. Do you think tumbling will be of any benefit since you would be covering all exposed bearing surfaces?

Just thinking about it makes me think it might help.
Tom

[btroj]

I have done just that.

The bare lead isn't the issue at all. I did it as the first mould I had for my 1911 tended to lead the throat. A tumble in 45/45/10 stopped that leading. I was using a pretty hard lines t the time and I think it wasn't giving me a good seal on ignition so some blow by occurred. The 45/45/10 formed that seal faster and prevented the leading.

In short, sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

This was an idea given to my by a member who I sorely miss- Bassakwards

[runfiverun]

benefit is a broad word when dealing with lube...

if I was going to tweak a lube looking for maximum accuracy I would start with a soft lube and add beeswax at 5% increments until I started losing accuracy again.
what you really are doing is tweaking the viscosity towards a narrower temperature window.

one of our members was doing this with 2 differently cooked batches of ben's red and was tracking his results for a while.

I am not a fan of adding more lube I try to maximize lead/barrel contact as much as I can.
I think of it as putting wider tires on the car to help with cornering.

[tygar]

I have done just that.

The bare lead isn't the issue at all. I did it as the first mould I had for my 1911 tended to lead the throat. A tumble in 45/45/10 stopped that leading. I was using a pretty hard lines t the time and I think it wasn't giving me a good seal on ignition so some blow by occurred. The 45/45/10 formed that seal faster and prevented the leading.

In short, sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

This was an idea given to my by a member who I sorely miss- Bassakwards
---------------
On the surface, it seems like it could help.

What I was referring to was how tumbling would coat all the rest of the bullet, especially the bearing parts that were un-lubed after sizing. That is how the TL works so why not on a regular lubed bullet.

So, do you think it would help with sealing on a harder bullet, or with higher velocity on PBs or even GCs?

This seems to be an interesting question.

Mixing the 2 types of lube should not be a problem since they are mixed to make lots of lubes by members, so, probably can't hurt.

I'm going to try it but, what do you think we could do for an empirical test?, or is there one?


I would think maybe one of the experts here has thought of this before and did a study.

Lets see what people have to say.
Tom

[btroj]

The bearing surface doesn't really ride bare on the surface of the barrel. The last round down the tube left a film and some lube is blown down the barrel ahead of the bullet. If this wasn't true then traditionally lubed bullets would lead badly.

Mixing lubes is a double edged sword. Not all oils or carriers play nice together.

Like Run mentioned it is a matter of having a decent lube then adjusting it to meet the specific needs of the load. Might need higher or lower viscosity.

Dont think of lube as a lube per se. It does far more than lubricate. It needs to have enough body to form a seal between bullet and bore, soft enough to be squished into the space at the trailing edge of the lands that tends to like to leak, and be able to completely blow off the bullet at the muzzle.

The example I gave was basically a situation where I used tumble lube a bandaid over a problem. It was a quick fix. I don't do that anymore as I have a better bullet and better lubes. Leading isn't an issue anymore.

Most don't use a combination of lubes because it just isn't required if all is working properly. It is also extra work and the tumble lube does leave lube on bullet noses, that is something I prefer to avoid.

[tygar]

benefit is a broad word when dealing with lube...

if I was going to tweak a lube looking for maximum accuracy I would start with a soft lube and add beeswax at 5% increments until I started losing accuracy again.
what you really are doing is tweaking the viscosity towards a narrower temperature window.

one of our members was doing this with 2 differently cooked batches of ben's red and was tracking his results for a while.

I am not a fan of adding more lube I try to maximize lead/barrel contact as much as I can.
I think of it as putting wider tires on the car to help with cornering.
-
Now I'm really curious. I sure understand the anology. My vette has super wide tires & you can't beat it for cornering. Same reason we put wides on muscle cars. But for drags we spin in stick-um for better traction so that could be comparable to lubing.

In reading posts & stickys, one of the things I see is people talking about having enough or big enough lube grooves to have more stick lube on bullet &, of course, TL coats the whole bullet.

So do you feel that "too" much lube can be a detriment?

I can't see how doing a TL would be a problem but I sure wouldn't have any idea if it would be a problem.

I've just been using my Lyman L/S since the 70s & did the pan melt thing before that & all for pistol. Never even heard of Alox or Lee system until I got interested in rifle casting last summer.

This will be interesting.
Tom

[btroj]

Too much or too slick in lube is really bad. It doesn't let the bullet hold the lands well and can usually be see as vertical on the target.

In the extreme thread there was one guy who actually added ingredients specifically to reduce the slick of the lube.

I bet a quick tumble in thinned beeswax would work as well as any lube addition.

[NuJudge]

There are lots of threads here about how multi-groove .38 Special 148gr wadcutters frequently shoot best with just the bottom groove lubed.

Yes, you can have too much lube.

[bhn22]

Plus excess lube can "purge" from the bullet as it exits the barrel, off balancing it slightly, or causing a bit of bullet yaw. There is much discussion about lube purging, and its effect on accuracy.

[tygar]

Plus excess lube can "purge" from the bullet as it exits the barrel, off balancing it slightly, or causing a bit of bullet yaw. There is much discussion about lube purging, and its effect on accuracy.

.[/QUOTE]
Yes, you can have too much lube. .[/QUOTE]

.[/QUOTE]
Too much or too slick in lube is really bad. It doesn't let the bullet hold the lands well and can usually be see as vertical on the target. .[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]
I bet a quick tumble in thinned beeswax would work as well as any lube addition. [/QUOTE]


Ok, I can see what your saying but after normal lube/size, just tumbling in Alox, which shouldn't come off, & is not slick, how would that affect the bullet in any harmful way?

Are you saying that the thinned beeswax would work the same way as Alox when added to a regular lubersizer bullet?

I experimented this afternoon with some .44Mags out of Mehec mold. 3 varying HPs & solid.

2 of them were an inch & 2 were 3-4" at 26yds. So no benchmark there since this is a new mold & I don't know what it will do.

But I will now load up the same loads with the same bullet types without the Alox added & see what it does. I also have my 4 cavity Lyman 429421(I think) that has a 40 yr track record with me & I know exactly how it shoots. Because I knew what this bullet did I used the target/accuracy load I use in it. Either 8.5 or 9.5 Unique. The above groups were with the 8.5. I didn't get to the 9.5, got too cold.

This is an interesting study. Wish I had more experience with all these various lubes. Been using NRA mix in my pistols forever, just now trying different lubes due to now shooting rifles (& some pistols) at much higher velocity.

Tom

[btroj]

A coating of Alox won't hurt much. Yes, I think a light coat of beeswax would do the same thing.

With a properly for bullet and a good lube what are we gaining? We are adding a step, possibly adding fouling, and gaining what? Most likely nothing.

I would rather make things work on the front end and avoid the extra steps.

[tygar]

You know far more than I do about this. It was just an idea I had while reading this thread.

As I said, couldn't see where it would cause problems (but didn't know) & maybe it would help.

I've been using a luber sizer only until I started getting some of these Lee molds that have tumble lube application. So curious as to it's potential benefits.

As to fouling, I thought this Alox wouldn't foul? In this instance, my bore was clean with 1 dry patch.

I am trying to maker things work. That's why all the questions.

I still don't have any of my rifles that I have been trying to shoot cast doing any good.

Will try the rest of the experiment tomorrow if the weather is ok.
Tom

With pistols I have been using the same loads forever & they still work in any of my old guns & usually in any new ones of the same caliber & design without much tweeking.

[btroj]

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Give a coating of LLA a try and see what, if any, differences you see.

A tumble lube bullet can be sized with traditional lube, I have done it to many of them. It works quite well.

I think you should give it a try. It won't harm anything at all. Please be sure to let us know what you observe.

[mdi]

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_5_Lubrication.htm A bit of info on lubes and how/why they work...

I don't use a lubersizer because my production rates are small and I'm in no hurry, mebbe 150-200 at a time. I like to cast up a bunch of my favorite bullets and store them until I need them, and then I will size/lube as each particular gun has different needs. I just finished 150, .44 cal. bullets for my .44 Puma. They had gas checks installed, sized to .432"+, and dip lubed with 45-45-10. If I use the same bullet in my SBH, I'll size to .431", and lube with my Speed Green or Carnauba Red. When I started casting I used T/L bullets and alox, and that worked for a time (until my needs changed; higher velocity, custom sizing, etc.). Alox is a good lube, but it has, like most lubes I'm familiar with, it's limitations.

[myg30]

You know far more than I do about this. It was just an idea I had while reading this thread.

As I said, couldn't see where it would cause problems (but didn't know) & maybe it would help.

I've been using a luber sizer only until I started getting some of these Lee molds that have tumble lube application. So curious as to it's potential benefits.

As to fouling, I thought this Alox wouldn't foul? In this instance, my bore was clean with 1 dry patch.

I am trying to maker things work. That's why all the questions.

I still don't have any of my rifles that I have been trying to shoot cast doing any good.

Will try the rest of the experiment tomorrow if the weather is ok.
Tom

With pistols I have been using the same loads forever & they still work in any of my old guns & usually in any new ones of the same caliber & design without much tweeking.

Start a new thread with your rifle troubles. Some body will help with a solution ! Cal., Bore dia, mold number, lead mix etc..

Mike