2 cycle synthetic and beeswax

[smokesahoy]

So I've been working my search skills and doing lots of reading and I ran across this recipe. To anyone else new looking for a lube without a ton of ingredients try this out: 3 parts beeswax 1 part synthetic 2 cycle. I happened to also have a quart of homelite for wood season sitting around so I used that. Works perfect just melt and mix. No fuss recipe that works great.

It's a nice firm lube that works great and is really no more tacky when dry than beeswax. I think I'll be using this going forward and use my previous experiments as flux.

[smokesahoy]

I was thinking of adding moly powder to the mix for bore conditioning without changing the lube as it is now so didn't want to use another grease that had it as an additive. In a 10 ounce mix how much powder should I add as a starting point? And where does one get the straight powder locally? Are there any store chains that stock it routinely or is this an internet only type of thing? Thanks!

[btroj]

The moly powder won't help in reality and too much can cause issues. I would leave the moly out.

[smokesahoy]

OK, thank you for the advice. It's so hard to accept something so simple can be so good, I've been reading now for the last few days (literally, work is slow and all night) and the only ingredient not found in the various lube recipes was eye of newt.

Hehe I'll leave it alone, thank you.

[Springfield]

Nothing new about that, I've been running 9 parts BW, 6 parts soft paraffin and 3 parts 2 stroke oil for the last 5 years in my BP bullets.

[smokesahoy]

I'm sorry, I hope it doesn't look like I'm claiming to have invented this. I just reposted this after searching all over this site and others following a trail of crumbs.

This was just posted in one format that wasn't a trail of comments made across numerous many page threads for other newbies such as myself who want to make their own lube without hassle or mess just by going out to the garage and grabbing something that is already there and repurposing it to suit something else.

So nothing new to you guys, but so far it's just mentioned in side comments in other threads.

Mine is red though because that is what color I had laying around.

So yeah I claim nothing to do with this fine product. Just a courtesy to others to save them from making too much flux.

[Tech2]

This is where I get my dry lube.
https://www.bulletcoatings.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17522&cat=249&page=1
I use a little HBN as a barrier so that any fowling will have a difficult time bonding to the bore.

[Good Cheer]

I'm sorry, I hope it doesn't look like I'm claiming to have invented this. I just reposted this after searching all over this site and others following a trail of crumbs.

This was just posted in one format that wasn't a trail of comments made across numerous many page threads for other newbies such as myself who want to make their own lube without hassle or mess just by going out to the garage and grabbing something that is already there and repurposing it to suit something else.

So nothing new to you guys, but so far it's just mentioned in side comments in other threads.

Mine is red though because that is what color I had laying around.

So yeah I claim nothing to do with this fine product. Just a courtesy to others to save them from making too much flux.

Heh heh. No sir, didn't appear as though you were claiming to have invented the formula. It was an interseine rejoinder.

[geargnasher]

Ken started a recipe thread, but after about the second page it went to hell. Too many wannabe lube cooks throwing something up there that they've never even put through a gun just to get their name in print. Sorry the Speed Green recipe by Bullshop got lost in the fray.

Gear

[shredder]

Ken started a recipe thread, but after about the second page it went to hell. Too many wannabe lube cooks throwing something up there that they've never even put through a gun just to get their name in print. Sorry the Speed Green recipe by Bullshop got lost in the fray.

Gear

Speed Green is my "go to" lube for rifle. I do it 50/50 bullshop sprue plate lube and beeswax. Tacky yes, excellent under all conditions that i can throw at it, yes. It would not surprise me to get similar resuts with 2 stroke synthetic. I just happen to love bullshop sprue plate lube.

I also lube by hand. I first run my boolits through a push through lee sizer with a light coat of Imperial sizining die wax. The tiniest wipe will do. This allows the gas check to get crimped on without pushing lube underneath which seems to happen lots if I try it all at once.

After I have a batch of sized gas checked boolits I apply the speed green and run them through again. It really takes very little time to do and I enjoy fussing and fiddling over things so it suits me just fine to lavish indiviual attention on my boolits. I expect so much from them , why not put in a bit of time to make them as perfect as I can?

[waksupi]

Looks like my post from last night disappeared. I find moly to be too slick for cast bullets. Erratic velocity, pressures, and accuracy. Used Goop hand cleaner to get it out of my barrels, and it will never go there again.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

So I've been working my search skills and doing lots of reading and I ran across this recipe. To anyone else new looking for a lube without a ton of ingredients try this out: 3 parts beeswax 1 part synthetic 2 cycle. I happened to also have a quart of homelite for wood season sitting around so I used that. Works perfect just melt and mix. No fuss recipe that works great.

It's a nice firm lube that works great and is really no more tacky when dry than beeswax. I think I'll be using this going forward and use my previous experiments as flux.
I, like you, first found what is basically Bullshops "speed green" recipe and thought, How simple. I had used Speed Green made by Bullshop and found it to be too lacky once it's applied...that's when I tried adding an ingredient or two, suggested by some members here, to reduce the tackiness.

Also, I've found that depending on which oil you use, you may need to modify the 3 parts to 1 part formula. I used Amsoil Dominator for it's low smoke claims, but it is a very slick lube, I'd get lube purging flyers about 1 in every 5 shots. I lightened the Dominator content and added some Lanolin and the reduced JPW for it's carnuba content...a small amount of Raw carnuba flakes (maybe 1/2oz) could easily replace the JPW in my recipe.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?26524-Just-the-facts-Lube-recipes&p=1191534&viewfull=1#post1191534

Since I made this first batch and dealt with the mess, I've decided to let the experts make lube for me. randyrat's Tak#1 is very similar to this recipe, and functions very good for most of my shooting and flows through a lubesizer as good as any...and isn't too tacky, plus he forms it into hollow tubes for my lubesizer.

Also, I am very fond of Bullshop's "Lotak" for rifle boolits that will get driven faster than most of the plinker loads I shoot.

[Viper225]

I went looking for some Full Synthetic Two Cycle the other day. I found Lucas at both auto parts stores, the problem with it is it is a Synthetic Blend.
Where I finally found it was at a Stihl Dealer who sells lots of weed eaters and other yard use products besides "logging chain saws". Using Stihl Full Synthetic extends the Stihl Warranty.

Bob

[runfiverun]

simple lube does just fine and is simple to make.
it contains the 2 stroke you wanna use.

[geargnasher]

While I'm still convinced that synthetic is the way to go, I still couldn't tell anyone how to make it work reliably unless they made Speed Green with it. Stick with more "conventional" two-stroke oils if you add anything to it other than beeswax. Simple Lube simply works, so does Ben's Red and the old NRA formula of equal Beeswax, Vaseline, and paraffin wax. Throw any synthetics in any of those and things get weird.

Gear

[Recluse]

While I'm still convinced that synthetic is the way to go, I still couldn't tell anyone how to make it work reliably unless they made Speed Green with it. Stick with more "conventional" two-stroke oils if you add anything to it other than beeswax. Simple Lube simply works, so does Ben's Red and the old NRA formula of equal Beeswax, Vaseline, and paraffin wax. Throw any synthetics in any of those and things get weird.

Gear

Agreed.

When I've used anything synthetic as the "base lube" ingredient and added other stuff to it, the net result was a lube that gave me wildly unpredictable results as in flyers with no discernible pattern or reason to them. In short, I couldn't hold a group even at short distances such as 25' and the faster I pushed the boolits out of a handgun, the wilder and more random the patterning became.

Now, however, when I would try just a synthetic lube plus beeswax, and that was all. . . things really tightened up group wise.

Adding moly. . . I did that exactly ONE time and I swore and swore and swore some more getting that garbage out of my barrels. Worst part about it was that the lube was TOO slick and I had flyers like crazy.

:coffee:

[dikman]

A brief word, if I may, about the term "synthetic", when applied to oils. The common expectation is that if an oil is termed synthetic then it means it's made in a laboratory. Not so, unfortunately. Many so-called synthetic oils are no more than highly refined mineral oils, with additives. Semi-synthetic is an even bigger con, basically just mineral oil with extra additives. The only way to find out if a synthetic oil is, in fact, a true synthetic is to do some homework and look up the MSDS.

The legal precedent that let Castrol call a refined mineral oil "synthetic" has a lot to answer for.

[Bullshop Junior]

Ken started a recipe thread, but after about the second page it went to hell. Too many wannabe lube cooks throwing something up there that they've never even put through a gun just to get their name in print. Sorry the Speed Green recipe by Bullshop got lost in the fray.

Gear

I wish I could find the speedgree recipe. I never paid attentionas a kid, and I wanted to try making it replacing bullplate with synthetic 2 stroke oil. But my searching has been fruitless.

[smokesahoy]

Most people are pretty sure it was just whatever 2 cycle was out in the shed. Some have compared the amsoil saber and it looked felt and smelled the same. When applied to a hot plate it smoked at the same temp. As according to miha any old synthetic will do the same thing.

We may not know the exact 2 cycle but they are manufactured to have similar properties in the engine so will perform similar in our application.
Bit if you want it green then the oil listed above with yellow beeswax will do it.

You're his son? He made a great discovery, managed to cut all the excess ingredients out. It's a great lube, certainly made my starting easier and cheaper without having to buy a ton of ingredients.

[shredder]

Speed Green is my "go to" lube for rifle. I do it 50/50 bullshop sprue plate lube and beeswax. Tacky yes, excellent under all conditions that i can throw at it, yes. It would not surprise me to get similar resuts with 2 stroke synthetic. I just happen to love bullshop sprue plate lube.

I also lube by hand. I first run my boolits through a push through lee sizer with a light coat of Imperial sizining die wax. The tiniest wipe will do. This allows the gas check to get crimped on without pushing lube underneath which seems to happen lots if I try it all at once.

After I have a batch of sized gas checked boolits I apply the speed green and run them through again. It really takes very little time to do and I enjoy fussing and fiddling over things so it suits me just fine to lavish indiviual attention on my boolits. I expect so much from them , why not put in a bit of time to make them as perfect as I can?

Dang it I was not paying attention when I posted this. I use the original formula for speed green. I do NOT mix it 50/50 as I stated above. It is 3 to 1 beeswax to Bullplate. sorry guys..

[Bullshop Junior]

Most people are pretty sure it was just whatever 2 cycle was out in the shed. Some have compared the amsoil saber and it looked felt and smelled the same. When applied to a hot plate it smoked at the same temp. As according to miha any old synthetic will do the same thing.

We may not know the exact 2 cycle but they are manufactured to have similar properties in the engine so will perform similar in our application.
Bit if you want it green then the oil listed above with yellow beeswax will do it.

You're his son? He made a great discovery, managed to cut all the excess ingredients out. It's a great lube, certainly made my starting easier and cheaper without having to buy a ton of ingredients.

Yes I am his son. Although, i cant even come close to making the impact on the boolit casting world he made.

Amsoil Sabor is wrong. It is Amsoil HP injector.

[geargnasher]

And here I thought you didn't pay attention. :kidding:

My lube ingredient shelf in the garage represents the entire Amsoil line of syn two-stroke oils (local dealer hooked me up years ago), and I've found all of them work fine. One of the green ones is closer to what's in my bottles of Bullplate than the other, according to lab analysis. That's all I'm going to say about that.

As for what is legally allowed to be called a "synthetic", even Amsoil has screwed around with their base stocks over time. From what I gather now, all of their syn oils are based on pure, PAO base stocks which are Group IV, gen-you-ine, manufactured molecules.

Red Line, Motul, and Maxima two-stroke oils are based on POE, or polyolester base stocks which are totally different from the polyalphaolephins such as Mobil 1, Royal Purple, and Amsoil.

The severely hydrotreated Group III base oils with viscosity modifiers and pour point depressants can be marketed as "synthetics", but they have breakdown and sludge issues that the synthetics do not.

Gear

[MtGun44]

Didn't think many folks knew about hydrocracking. I met an engineer from Amoco years ago just
after they and Pennzoil put in the first hydrocracker in on the Gulf Coast. They were getting performance
from their lube oils nearly as good as real synthetics for a bunch less $$. Used to have a powerpoint
presentation he did on the process and the test results of their hydrocracked lube oils.

Apparently now it is legal to call hydrocracked dinosaur juice "synthetic", at least for car oil.

Bill

[Ben]

Gear :

OK.......fine, now explain what it is that I don't understand about what you just said .................

[MtGun44]

Who you talking about, Ben? Me or gear?

Bill

[Ben]

Bill,

I can always understand what you're saying.....

Gear, now that is another story.

[MtGun44]

I was commenting on his last sentence. He says 'hydrotreating' and I am sure this is what they used to refer to
as 'hydrocracking'.

Bill

[geargnasher]

A few have gotten an ejumication from our very own resident Cast Boolits Lubrication Engineer, Bruce381. He's been very helpful to those of us on the lube quest through his generosity of both information and many samples of various lab-grade components. When we wanted to isolate and test various "pure" synthetic and natural components, he was Johnny-on-the-spot with ingredients not available to the general consumer. That's how we learned so much about synthetics, additives, and grease thickeners. We've made all manner of greases from scratch using pure ingredients like Al Stearate, PAO 100, a variety of PAGS, bentone, various pure Li soap compounds, even silica. We've also played with a variety of friction modifiers and EP additives he was kind enough to provide.

Bruce is definitely one of the MVP's of the Extreme Lube Quest.

Gear

[nanuk]

I wish I could find the speedgree recipe. I never paid attentionas a kid, and I wanted to try making it replacing bullplate with synthetic 2 stroke oil. But my searching has been fruitless.


Bwahahahahaaaaaa....

<snort>

[montana_charlie]

I wish I could find the speedgree recipe. I never paid attentionas a kid, and I wanted to try making it replacing bullplate with synthetic 2 stroke oil. But my searching has been fruitless.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?25037-speed-green&highlight=speed%20green

[Bullshop Junior]

Thanks charlie. Thats what I was looking for. Thanks. I wanna try a few experiments with difforant types of oil, specifly synthetic tranny fluid since its easier to get then the amzoil 2stroke. I can get the amzoil tranny fluid at napa

[igolfat8]

I don't pretend to be an expert on lubes but I find this discussion fascinating. Years ago, I raced 2 stroke dirt bikes and was on a quest to find the best two stroke oil. I owned a Falex film strength test machine. Granted it was not a Shell 4 ball test but it provided a means to test a LOT of oils quickly on a shoe string budget and assign a metric to each oil instead of opinion. I have forgotten most of what I learned but do remember that Golden Spectro was one of the best "blends" of petroleum / synthetic oils and Klotz Techniplate was the best of the pure synthetics. Amzoil rated near the bottom.

[Bullshop Junior]

That is interesting...I can get the Klotz snowmachine oil here, but t is very expancive. About $14 per quart.

[btroj]

Gear :

OK.......fine, now explain what it is that I don't understand about what you just said .................

Ok Ben, I will try

A PAO and a POE are two different, chemically, types of synthetic lubricants. They are entirely man made. They have some very different chemical properties. I haven't messed with the PAO oils at all but have played with the POE oils. The Ester 100 AC oil I use as a sprue plate lube is a fully synthetic POE oil.

Hydro cracked oils are naturally occurring oils that have been altered chemically to improve their lubricating properties.

Biggest advantage to the synthetics is the fact they tend to be me chemically pure and very consistent year in and year out. Naturally occurring oils, like mineral oil, tend to vary from time to time or over time.

POE oils are chemically similar, in ways, to beeswax as beeswax contains lots of esters. His allows the POE oil to easily mix with beeswax. Some other oils may not mix as well with beeswax.

Ben, a year ago this was all Greek to me. I have learned way more than any man needs to know about lubrication. The quest taught me much about how different oils behave both as lubricants and more importantly how they play with other stuff.

I hope this sheds some light on what Gear said. I can't generally understand Gear, Run is another story. I still haven't found a Run/English decoder ring.....

[Ben]

Some of you guys are obviously educated way beyond my intelligence.

I didn't know a thing about any of the things your guys are discussing and managed to come up with the ingredients for Ben's Red.

Maybe I need to head to Las Vegas ?

Ben

[Bullshop Junior]

What does bens red consist of?

[Ben]

Bullshop Junior


BEN'S RED

50% beeswax ( Some choose to use 55% with good results )
30% Red & Tacky Lucas High Temp Grease
10% Johnson's Paste Wax
5% Dexron II or Dexron III Trans. Fluid
5% STP Oil Treatment



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/PICT0002-29.jpg

[Bullshop Junior]

and does it do fairly well under high pressure/speeds?

[Ben]

I don't shoot it beyond 2,000 fps and then with powders like IMR 4895 that is probably not breaking 30,000 psi.

Some on the forum here say they have shot 2,400 fps with zero problems, however I've never tried it ? ?

Of course many use it in revolver and auto pistol loads with good reviews.

Ben

[btroj]

Ben, I have the advantage of a BS in Chemistry so I understand the basic concepts. Gear has the advantage of being a mechanic who has lots of first hand experience with this stuff. He also has an insatiable need to know.

It isn't about intelligence or anything like that. I think what happened is you approached lube by taking existing known "good stuff" and finding a combination that works well. We tried to take a more scientific approach. Your work, and that of others, laid a strong foundation.

[Bullshop Junior]

I don't shoot it beyond 2,000 fps and then with powders like IMR 4895 that is probably not breaking 30,000 psi.

Some on the forum here say they have shot 2,400 fps with zero problems, however I've never tried it ? ?

Of course many use it in revolver and auto pistol loads with good reviews.

Ben

I would have to test it, and see but I like to push my boolits to the full potential of the rifle. If I can't I will shoot jacketed. But for most of the guns I have owned, I was able to shoot full power cast loads with speed green, 22/250 and a few like that being the exception.

[Ben]

Ben's Red may not be for you...........

It wasn't designed to be a cast bullet lube to operate under the conditions you describe. Whether it can or not still remains to be seen ?

I know it to be a great cast bullet lube for a lot of people like me who like to shoot 1,500 fps - 2,000 fps in rifles and also use the same lube in revolvers and auto pistols.

It has already been mentioned that no lube will be all things, to all people , under all conditions, at all times and that certainly goes for Ben's Red also.

Ben

[35 shooter]

Ben's Red makes the full trip out the bore at 2500 fps + in my whelen with cast. Absolutely no leading whatsoever. I've seen several others post the same results. I think when the temp gets over 95* with a 110 heat index i saw a slight increase in group size.Maybe 5% more beeswax added as others have tried would take it on up in temp range? As far as that goes it may have been the heat affecting me more. In fact i'd say that was more likely. Hard to shoot with sweat in your eyes. Even in the heat one patch pretty well cleaned the bore....no dry or rough spots. I think it would go as fast as i can shoot in the whelen, i just run out of accurracy around 2500 fps. I've heard good reports on speed green for speed too but i haven't tried it. As far as 2 cycle oil and beeswax goes, with a couple more simple ingredients you've got simple lube. I use it and Ben's Red and love both. Both of them will handle speed, cold and heat. So far i haven't had to modify simple lube at all for cold or heat. Of course it does'nt get hot here like AZ. or TX., but it does get hot with horrible humidity.:grin:

[Bullshop Junior]

That is one advantage I am seeing with the powder coating...it wont melt.

[35 shooter]

That is one advantage I am seeing with the powder coating...it wont melt.

Waco has a test going on with that very thing. Be glad when he gets a chance to do some more shooting!

[igolfat8]

Biggest advantage to the synthetics is the fact they tend to be me chemically pure and very consistent year in and year out. Naturally occurring oils, like mineral oil, tend to vary from time to time or over time.


True statement. Decades ago I had published my test results in an AMA newspaper. I had other riders sending me samples of oil to test for them. A couple sent me oils that I had already tested locally but they were from the other side of the US and I noticed a considerable discrepancy in the test results. A Castrol lube engineer called me, from England and he verified what btroj said above. He stated that mineral oil quality will very depending on what field they came from. He has said some of the highest quality [mineral oil] base stocks came from oil fields in PA.

[montana_charlie]

Thanks charlie. Thats what I was looking for. Thanks.
When you want to search Cast Boolits for something use this customized search engine.
https://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=001951264366462437169:ggn3vg-bjum

However, it won't find things that are in The Pit because access to that area is not available to the general public.

CM

[geargnasher]

Ben, most "lithi-bee" lubes tend to fall on their faces in extreme heat. Groups will open up, particularly in rapid-fire scenarios, as the Lithium soap matrix begins to break down and can no longer control the oil release all the way to the muzzle.

Sodium stearate tends to hold the oil a bit better in the heat and extreme pressure, but when the drop point IS reached, it fails in a different way. Sodium stearate molecules are something on the order of 100 times larger than Lithium stearate molecules, and when the sodium soap burns, it leaves a cakey residue in the bore similar to the calcium stearates in
Alox, only worse. Burned lithium purges just like powder residue and is much less dramatic when pushed past it's drop point.

I have pretty much given up on traditional metal soaps as thickening/oil control agents for boolit lube. They work fine up to a point, but above a certain amount of heat and pressure, they just can't hold up. One reason Speed Green works well under high heat and pressure is the clean burn. The wax and two-cycle oil cook off fairly cleanly, leaving little residue in the bore to muck up the next shot. The problem with it, for me, is that in the heat groups open up unless more wax is added. It also has a fairly low melt point and won't tolerate being exposed to direct sun in the Texas heat for long. Adding a bit of sodium soap to it, like Edd is doing right now, may fix this and we might end up with the "perfect" lube. I have something else up my sleeve right now to help control the "runaway slickey" problem it has with too much heat. We'll see.

Gear

[igolfat8]

Gear,
I am a noobie and have not been around here long enough to know what you shoot. If you only shot .45 ACP in 1911s what lube would you use? FWIW, I have yet to cast my first boolit and only doing research as to what equipment to purchase to set up my shop. I will probably venture down the Lee road and take the less expensive route to enter in at a lower price point.

[btroj]

I'm not Gear but I bet I know what he will say.....

A mix of equal part Dr Tranny Assemblee Goo, the green one, paraffin, and Ivory soap, by weight. To each 4 ounces you can add a teaspoonful of synthetic 2 stroke oil.

This stuff needs LOTS of heat to mix properly. I am talking 450 degrees or so. It isn't going to melt in any reasonable temps and works great in handguns.

There are others but this one works great for handgun use.

[Bullshop Junior]

I would se the same lube I se in everything else...Speedgreen.

[igolfat8]

Is the Speed Green and or Tranny Lubes meant to be applied with a lubrisizer, pan or tumble tube? I don't have a lubrisizer and will likely purchase a Lee sizer and start with tumble or pan lube method.

[Bullshop Junior]

Speed green can be used with panlube, although lotak may be better, witch if I remember correctly is speed green with 1 part carnaba wax added.

[btroj]

The lube I mentioned is called SL-61 and I used it in a sizer. I have never pan lubed so I can't really say. I doubt it would be a good pan lube largely due to the extremely high melt point.

For a 45 ACP a tumble in 45-45-10 is the way to go if not using a lubesizer.

[igolfat8]

The lube I mentioned is called SL-61 and I used it in a sizer. I have never pan lubed so I can't really say. I doubt it would be a good pan lube largely due to the extremely high melt point.

For a 45 ACP a tumble in 45-45-10 is the way to go if not using a lubesizer.

What if one had a lubrisizer? I primarily shoot Bullseye and Bowling pins. I don't have any equipement for casting ... yet ... so I am open to suggestions. FWIW I shoot about 300 rounds / week.

[btroj]

If you have a sizer you could do worse than Felix lube or Bens red in most cases. Both are easy to make and have a good reputation.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Speed green can be used with panlube, although lotak may be better, witch if I remember correctly is speed green with 1 part carnaba wax added.
I do like Lotak, according to your old man, there is no Beeswax in Lotak.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?131679-TAC-1-boolit-lube-mold-sprue-lube&p=1876001&viewfull=1#post1876001

I do like randyrat's Tak #1 which is similar to a doctored speed green. I believe the ingredient in Lotak that replaces beeswax is what is mostly responsible for it's higher speed capabilites.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?119026-High-velocity-with-usable-accuracy-You-decide!&highlight=Lotak

[igolfat8]

Having never used either method, is it safe to assume the lubrisizer method is faster than TL? If I wanted to get a Lubrisizer one step up in cost over the Lee sizer TL method, what machine do you suggest?

[btroj]

Speed is relative. A Star is then faster to use but takes some time to learn to get pressure and heat just right. Tumble lube is quick and easy and only requires a push thru sizer to use on your loading press.

For large numbers of handgun bullets a Star is darn hard to beat.

[dsbock]

What is the general consensus of the lube recipe from Glen Fryxell's book From Ingot to Target?

"Personally, my favorite is my homemade Moly lube, made from equal parts by weight of beeswax (either yellow or white, color doesn't matter) mixed with Sta-Lube Extreme Pressure Moly-Graph Multi-Purpose Grease. This grease, like Alox 2138F, is also a lithium-based grease, so this lube is basically just a variant of the old NRA formula for Alox lube, with a little molybdenum disulfide and graphite thrown in."

It seems simple enough.

David

[Bullshop Junior]

Having never used either method, is it safe to assume the lubrisizer method is faster than TL? If I wanted to get a Lubrisizer one step up in cost over the Lee sizer TL method, what machine do you suggest?

RCBS lubamatic

[Bullshop Junior]

Maybe he just switched beeswax straight up for carnoba. I dont remember for sure, but i know it had carnaba in it

[wantoutofca]

I thought it was +2oz of carnauba.

[Bullshop Junior]

Thats what i thought as well

[seagiant]

What is the general consensus of the lube recipe from Glen Fryxell's book From Ingot to Target?

"Personally, my favorite is my homemade Moly lube, made from equal parts by weight of beeswax (either yellow or white, color doesn't matter) mixed with Sta-Lube Extreme Pressure Moly-Graph Multi-Purpose Grease. This grease, like Alox 2138F, is also a lithium-based grease, so this lube is basically just a variant of the old NRA formula for Alox lube, with a little molybdenum disulfide and graphite thrown in."

It seems simple enough.

David

Hi,
I've used Glen's recipe for years now and it is a winner,although like most soft lubes will smoke when shot! No problem at an outdoor range! Ive used it for pistol and rifle and have had no leading!

[dsbock]

Hi,
I've used Glen's recipe for years now and it is a winner,although like most soft lubes will smoke when shot! No problem at an outdoor range! Ive used it for pistol and rifle and have had no leading!

I shoot at an outdoor range so I'm not concerned with the lube generating some smoke. With your rifle loads, to what speed have you pushed this lube? Are they gas-checked on non gas-checked loads?

Thanks for the reply.

David

[fredj338]

I have pretty much given up on traditional metal soaps as thickening/oil control agents for boolit lube. They work fine up to a point, but above a certain amount of heat and pressure, they just can't hold up. One reason Speed Green works well under high heat and pressure is the clean burn. The wax and two-cycle oil cook off fairly cleanly, leaving little residue in the bore to muck up the next shot. The problem with it, for me, is that in the heat groups open up unless more wax is added. It also has a fairly low melt point and won't tolerate being exposed to direct sun in the Texas heat for long. Adding a bit of sodium soap to it, like Edd is doing right now, may fix this and we might end up with the "perfect" lube. I have something else up my sleeve right now to help control the "runaway slickey" problem it has with too much heat. We'll see.

Gear
Would adding a bit of carnuba stiffen it for warmer days w/o changing things much?

[Springfield]

I shoot mostly BP and my wife mostly shoots low power Cowboy loads, so my bw/2-stroke oil/soft parrafin lube works well. As to the sizer question, my simple answer is(owning 3 Stars, 1 Lyman 45 and an RCBS) is if you load on a progressive press you will probably want a Star. If you use a single stage press a Lyman/RCBS should prove plenty fast enough. Especially if cost is any sort of issue. Tumble lubing is practically free but much slower.

[runfiverun]

carnuba is what you want for hotter day's.
if you shoot in temps over 50-f and up, carnuba is a great addition.
once you go below 50 the carnuba wax itself needs to be modified to work properly.

if I were shooting over 300 rounds a week every week I'd do like I do now and use a combination of processes I tumble lube with a modified 45/45/10 lube then run them through the star sizer.
I then tumble lube again.
5-600 on a Saturday or sunday is a breeze to get done, and leaves me time to get them loaded on the same day.

[smokesahoy]

I made a batch with amsoil dominator, 1:5 with beeswax. I melted wax, added oil and started pan lubing.
I was a bit disappointed by how soft it was so I put some talc on my bullets and decided to try em out before deciding. Anyhow I had a lot of time to myself over the holiday and I ran many batches thru the pan. Each time melting the lube and repouring it, letting it set up etc. I don't know how many remelts were in there. Long story short I was down there putzing around with the stuff and noticed how much harder the lube had become.

Its pretty cold here so I figured it might just be the temp, so i opened the box of extra that I had put aside and it is still much softer. I guess the repeated melts have allowed the oil to get bound up better in the wax or something, it is now much firmer and the bullets much less tacky. with the next batch I will give it a nice long melt time and see if I can finish it like my current batch is in the first process.

Just a note to help me remember later, but if anyone else is heading down the same road, try remelting the too tacky lube for a bit to help the oil into the wax better.

[utk]

I went to Amsoil's web page and had a look att Amsoil Dominator. It doesn't seem to be an oil, they call it an Octane Booster. And the MSDS says it contains 60-100% kerosene.
My guess is that much of the kerosene cooked off during the numerous remelt and thus your lube became thicker.

Some of the two-stroke oils mentioned in this thread also contain different solvents which may make the lube stiffer over time when the solvents evaporate.

Many moons ago, I melted beeswax with LEE liquid Lube (Alox 606-55) into a suitably soft lube. A couple of months later the lube had hardened into a useless clump. Because the solvents in the LLA had evaporated.

[altheating]

I made a mistake two years ago and purchased Amsoil's Interceptor oil to make speed green, well it works great, but you can't call it speed green, its yellow, or honey colored synthetic oil. So I call "Speed Yellow" 2500-2600 fps out of the 22 cal stuff, no leading with superior accuracy. Add 1.5 to 2 oz of carnauba wax to get it less tacky. Makes what acts like the Lotak lube. I'm not changing a thing, it does not get any easier than mixing synthetic oil, beeswax and carnauba.

[dikman]

I looked up the MSDS for Interceptor oil, out of curiosity, and it's not a true synthetic, it's petroleum-based (look up CAS 64742-47-8 / 64742-88-7). In fact, it's basically the same stuff that's in WD-40.
64742-47-8 is also referred to as jet fuel by some = kerosene.

[runfiverun]

smokesahoy you could also take the oil up in temp [350-f] and hold it there for a bit, this will remove the solvents from the 2 stroke.
it will leave the other stuff behind.
if its a poe base instead of a poa base oil this will help the carbon chains and esters bind with the b-wax better too.

[btroj]

I like to always let a lube sit overnight before I decide if it needs to be harder or softer. It is amazing how much a lube changes just sitting over night. In general I find that they firm up with 12 hours of sitting.

[wantoutofca]

When I whipped up my batch of lube I cooked all of the solvents out before adding the beeswax. This was nearly a year ago and the lube that is left seems identical to the way it was when first made. I thought that bull plate was Amsoil 2 stroke marine oil with the solvents cooked out. Not sure where I got that idea though.

[Socal147]

I use a 50/50 - BW /Crisco mix with a touch of carnuba and paraffin to help reduce stickiness and make it harder. I do shoot low velocity big lead 44 and 500 rounds. No leading at all, anywhere. I do wish I could generate some more smoke. Just for show of course.

[runfiverun]

alox smokes just fine especially when the humidity is up.
quite often adding paraffin to a lube can make it smoke more too.

[Socal147]

alox smokes just fine especially when the humidity is up.
quite often adding paraffin to a lube can make it smoke more too.

Thanks, I will give it a shot. I was wondering about using both lube methods (size/lube and TL on the same bullet as you mentioned earlier. I got some feedback stating this was bad. I tried it as a precursor to some hotter loads and it seemed to work fine.

[btroj]

I have tumble lubed a bullet already sized and lubed in a traditional sizer. No problems at all. I actually find that sometimes that light coat of tumble lube stops a load that leads lightly from leading at all.

[altheating]

That's interesting, kerosene? Well that would make making lube even cheaper. $6 per quart vs $4 per gallon for the oil.

[dikman]

Yep. Studying the MSDS for various products is quite fascinating. For instance, the common ingredient in a lot of waxes/polishes is white spirits, sometimes referred to as Stoddard's Solvent (or occasionally naptha). The same solvent(s) is used in a lot of paints and adhesives. The terminology can get a bit confusing, however, as some also refer to it as kerosene, whereas I've never considered kerosene to be quite as volatile as white spirits (maybe it depends on the purity? Not sure about that).

I bought some "low aroma" kero to make my Ed's Red cleaner.

[Oreo]

Kero is NOT naptha. I've never considered kero to be a solvent of any kind for that matter. Kero is a light oil. Solvents are more volatile, generally.

[dikman]

As I said, the terminology can get confusing at times. I've never considered kero to be in the same category as white spirits, naptha etc, but it is classified as a solvent by the companies that manufacture it (it is also classified as a jet and rocket fuel).

Depending on the type (clear, blue, low-odour or colourless) the MSDS I looked at refer to the main ingredient as being low-aromatic white spirit; naptha (petroleum) hydrosulphurised heavy; or distillates (petroleum) hydrotreated light (the first two have the same CAS number so is an example of two products, having the same chemical composition but being described with different names).

It's no wonder people get confused.....