Help with under-sized Minnie in Snider

[SniderBoomer]

I have a MkII* Snider Cavalry Carbine.

For the past 2 years, I been happy using .60 Round Ball on a push fit basis with NDFS brass, and it's been fine. I just load FFg BP near to the neck, push the RB seated to the middle of itself, then the most modest roll-crimp, just enough to 'nip' the ball and hold it there. For lube, I just dip the head of the RB in Udder Cream just before firing. I like the accuracy I get and the bore, it stays nice and clean, and my brass seems to be lasting forever.

But tinker we will I suppose... so I just got hold of a 520 grain .577 Minnie mold and I am just itchin to try these heavier Minnie's.

Trouble is, they are undersize for my barrel as you would expect, and they just drop clean into the fired, fireformed brass, again, as expected. My problem is, even neck-sizing the brass a bit isn't really gripping them much if at all and as I mentioned on another thread, resizing this old lathe-turned brass is hard - one of them I tried to size a few hours ago snapped in the die despite being waxed.

I need a bigger Minnie. Before I start altering the mold, I got an idea to ask here. I wonder if a PTFE-tape wrap, to get the 577" Minnie up to the 592" case mouth diameter of my fired brass, might work? PTFE tape is very 'elastic' in a way that paper isn't, so I am 'assuming' it will let the blast of firing, open up the skirt on the Minnie to seal the charge and engage the rifling. I would use my regular BP wax-lube on the boolit under the PTFE tape, then back the boolit down over some Cream of Wheat to buffer the tape from the black powder blast.

Might it work? or crazy? (I appreciate there are much better modern molds for the Snider, but this is what I got for now)

http://i43.tinypic.com/16a2zoz.jpg

[Gunor]

So how much smaller is the .577?
No expert, but the typically sizing for minnie's is 0.001 or 2 under land ID. So you can muzzle load them down the bore. They hopefully (the skirt) expands when fired.
So can you just 'glue' the bullets in the case - and launch them?

Geoff

BTW: I am using 24 ga. Plastic Hulls and .595 and BP for my load....

[Dan Cash]

I would wrap it in printer paper or similar paper that is about .0035 to .0034 thick and thumb seat the bullet on your powder charge. Maybe even add a wax wad over the propellant. I think it would be better than PTFE tape, what ever that is.
An alternative would be to compress the charge with the bullet. That will expand the bullet to fit the case.

[john hayslip]

First I'd try filling the base with something and then filling the case with black of substitute to base of bullet so it can't set back and see if the Minie will expand to fill as it is supposed to do.

[Red River Rick]

SB:

A bullet having a diameter closer to 0.590 will work much better, I know.:veryconfu

Slugging your bore will give you a better idea.

As mentioned already, fill the bases. The originals had a baked clay plug inserted into the base to help with obturation. Use Bondo to fill the bases of your bullets. Using a utility knife blade, trim the Bondo flush with the base of bullet when it becomes rubbery, then let it fully cure.

Since that bullet hardly holds enough lube to be of much value, a "Greased Felt Wad" seated under the bullet will help with some of the fouling control.

FWIW

RRR

[SniderBoomer]

Okay guys, thanks, I'll report back after the range.

By the way, 'ptfe' is a generic term for the brand 'teflon' or plumbers tape.

[ndnchf]

Go to gunbroker and look up seller "Blue Falcon", he sells .590" minies. I use them in my .58 Roberts rolling block. I too have the lathe turned cases. I ream them to .5938", then the big minies work fine. Here is a a loaded .58 Roberts with a .56-50 Spencer to its left and a lathe turned case to its right along with a .590 minie.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/58compare_zps18f28a84.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/58compare_zps18f28a84.jpg.html)

I bought a $10 19/32" chucking reamer off fleabay and reamed the cases 1/2" deep. Its a simple and inexpensive solution.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/rollerfingers_zps1f25824a.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/rollerfingers_zps1f25824a.jpg.html)

Hope this helps.

[SniderBoomer]

Oh that's a great idea. I aspire to having equipment like that for my shack one day. Do your wives ever see you much? ;-)

[Lead pot]

The idea of a mini was to have it undersized for fast loading during a skirmish with a fouled barrel. The skirt will expand to seal the bore. That is the reason for the deep cavity.
Also it was quite common to fill the cavity with lard (not tallow) to keep the fouling soft. I do this when I use the mini with great accuracy; just dont overload a mini so you dont blow out the skirt.

[ndnchf]

Oh that's a great idea. I aspire to having equipment like that for my shack one day. Do your wives ever see you much? ;-)

Oh sure, I come up for beer and grub now and then :mrgreen:

BTW, I just contacted Blue Falcon and ordered more .590" minies, he has them in stock.

[Bent Ramrod]

There was an article in Classic Arms and Militaria, a British gun magazine, where the writer made a fixture to cast slightly oversize Minie cones for his Snider rifle. They need to be the same shape but a little fatter and larger at the base than the cavity in the boolit so there is room for them to drive forward and swell it to fill the grooves. A friend showed me the magazine, but sold his Snider rather than trying to make the cones. When he fired his Snider, no accuracy was possible with the standard .58 Minie bullets, even when they were cast of pure lead and fired with black powder. Aimed at a 50 yard bullseye, they would always curve off to the target frames, smashing them up.

[ndnchf]

My .58 Roberts is certainly not target round, but it will keep them on paper. This is 6 shots at 50 yards using 60gr of Olde Eynsford 2F.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/60groldE_zpsf7a6886d.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/60groldE_zpsf7a6886d.jpg.html)

Group is about 4.5" - nothing special. But the bullets stabilized nicely with no keyholing. Groove size of my rifle is .594". The sights are badly worn on this rifle, the front is not much more than a nub. But it is a lot of fun to shoot.

[Buckshot]

.............. Once Sir Joseph Whitworth got it figured out while working for the British Gov't, I think about the first words out of his mouth were, "Who was the idiot that came up with the 72" twist?" :-). My Parker Hale P58 two band Enfield (5 groove 48" twist) will do this at 50 yards, 5 shots, 80.0grs Elephant 2Fg, .580" 500gr NEI :

http://www.fototime.com/D0AD049E86D45FC/standard.jpg

I have 2 MkII** Sniders (P53 conversions) one an original 3 band and the other a carbine done by a bored Canadian. Using CBC brass and a Lee .600" RB over 24grs of Unique with a .060" cardwad and 1/8" grease cookie under the ball they'll both do about this (this was the carbine) at 50 yards:

http://www.fototime.com/2B4B6ED4FB6126F/standard.jpg

Previous to trying smokless I made a swage die for my RCE press to produce .590" Minie' boolits:

http://www.fototime.com/5A94DEA526A1BFB/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/C43BADB9112AB8E/standard.jpg

LEFT: These are 580gr Raphine Pritchits (too heavy but I had hopes). The 2 on the right are donors and the 3 on the left are the result of a trip into the die. Expanded to .590: with a thinner skirt and a bit of a HP. They flew sideways, but it was worth a try, and then making a .580" push through die they do well in the P58. RIGHT: So then I ran Lee 470gr Target Minies into the die. Still no joy. Final try was the Lee 440gr REAL slug. A glimmer of something good happening but still nowhere near the .600" RB's and smokless.

Possibly some of the ills is the huge case volume of the CBC cases, as a 70gr charge is a pittance in the room available to work with. I had a buddy with a M1855 Springfield repro (3 groove x 66" twist IIRC) and it shot fairly well. He decided to try the British thing of the Boxwood plug in the base. What he ended up using was wooden golf Tee's. He'd clip the stem off and then push them up into the base of the Minie'. He came to the conclusion that some flew with the slug and some fell out in flight. He shot some fine groups and some with 3-4 on top of each other and the 4th and 5th way out, and variations thereof. He'd also recovered some with and without the wooden things still in the base.

It's been sometime since I've tried the Sniders with BP, and I do have a couple .315gr Minie' moulds, but neither is .590" or over. One of these days I'd have to try them in the swage die. Maybe try some Bondo in the base too. Still have that case volume problem! :-)

..............Buckshot

[ndnchf]

Buckshot - That's a fine shooting Snider! I agree about the 1-72" twist. My rolling block has a 1-72" twist Springfield m1863 musket barrel threaded to it and chambered in .58 Roberts. That slow twist was intended to make loading a fouled musket easier, not for optimum accuracy. I've been thinking of ordering a lighter, Snider style mould from Accurate and sizing it to .595". That would probably shoot better than what I'm using now.

[dromia]

The most accurate boolit for my Sniders out to 300 yrds is Red River Rick's .590" collar button.

Here is a link to my write up:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?31451-Red-River-Ricks-590-quot-Collar-Button&highlight=Paradox

The British military were never happy with the Minie in the Snider as evidenced by the number of versions they worked with looking to get it to perform.

Part of the trick to getting Minies to shoot is to get an elongated base plug to add the hollow nose of the original this does help with the balance for the slow twists.

However if you want to get the best out of the Snider then forget the Minie design.

[ndnchf]

Dromia - thanks, I've read that thread before - very impressive. What is the groove size of your sniders? I think that bullet would be too small for my .58 Roberts. My groove size is .594". I'm thinking I need a .595" - .596" bullet to shoot best and still allow the case to chamber.

[dromia]

You could see if Rick could cut a larger diameter for you.

Accurate are worth a look as he has a couple of "Snider" designs at .60 and he will cut to your specification.

I have the one I have linked to below, a nice boolit but I haven't got it to shoot as well as the collar button. I have yet to try the 445 gn design but there are plenty there to tweak with for the boolit you want in the diameter you want or just design your own.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=60-480B-D.png

[ndnchf]

I've been looking at that Accurate mold and 60-445B. Both seem like good candidates. My cases hold 60gr of 2F compressed using the minie. I just made up 10 minies with the cavities filled with bondo to imitate a clay plug. It will be interesting to see if that makes a difference. I also weighed the 100 .590" minies I bought and was surprised to find a weight spread of 8.2gr. That's a lot of variation. So I've grouped them in .5gr and 1.0gr groups and will load them that way. Hopefully that will help.

[Buckshot]

I also weighed the 100 .590" minies I bought and was surprised to find a weight spread of 8.2gr. That's a lot of variation. So I've grouped them in .5gr and 1.0gr groups and will load them that way. Hopefully that will help.

.............Of the Minies are smooth and well formed externally then the majority of those weight variations will be internal voids. Tip one up so you're looking into the base cavity. If you should happen to have an ice pick (for your ice box, of course!) or similar utensil try pushing it in at the nose of the cavity. In casting Minie' boolits from multiple moulds I visually inspect, and then weigh them. If they looked nicely cast but varied over 3 grs, or if the tip of the cavity looked 'different' in the least you can generally expect to find a void.

...............Buckshot

[ndnchf]

They look pretty good on the outside, so I'm assuming it is internal voids. These are apparently from an old mold, occasionally there is one where the mold didn't quite close right, but most are pretty good.

[SniderBoomer]

Folks, thanks for the replies, lots of info and Buckshot, holy smoke that's some fine shootin'.

In the end, I opted for paper patching to bring the Minnie's up to my bore (590). It took more full wraps than I normally use for paper patching, but I went with it and gave it a try. I was surprised with the results.



Starting light... 40 grains FFg with the rest made up from 50/50 fine CoW and FFg (78 grains total BP) and 1/8th inch just CoW under the Minnie
http://i43.tinypic.com/ipys03.jpg

I opted for a simple tight tuft of Dacron to fill the Minnie cavity...
http://i44.tinypic.com/m8cu29.jpg

Patched, they were a nice tight friction-fit snug on top of the charge. I dipped them in powder mica to prevent ripping the paper on seating.
http://i41.tinypic.com/k12lc1.jpg

Not really a crimp, just used the sizer die sans decap-pin, barely a touch, just to hold the boolit to remove last traces of looseness.
http://i39.tinypic.com/28wgpab.jpg

The weather has been awful, hardly a serious accuracy test in the wind, but this was standing unsupported at 25 yard, and I am happy with this, as I called the two off the group (first two shots that day) as I got used to the trigger again. I got tighter groups from the remaining tests, 50 I fired that day, but camera battery gave out.
http://i39.tinypic.com/24e8kk8.jpg

I color the inside of the Minnie to aid ID'ing my recovery of boolits from the sand. Here's a typical fired versus unfired.

http://i43.tinypic.com/10mlyq0.jpg

Note the lack of skirt expansion on the tightly patched boolits. These are very soft boolits, just clean roof lead. I don't like casting too much with it as it's hard to get a good Minnie without tin (note the flaw in the unfired base), but I wanted them soft as I could get 'em.

Here's an example of the same boolits, un-patched using regular BP lubes (same charge) on the left, versus patched on the right. The skirt on the unpatched was blown wide (as they do).
Hard to photograph, but there was rifling etching on the patched boolits. The paper ripped off into a consistent area about 6 feet ahead of the muzzle.

http://i39.tinypic.com/10elg6x.jpg

I had no lube on the Minnie, no internal lube. Instead, I just dipped the Minnie head in this stuff just before I fire... It smells good. It feels good. I got hands soooo soft ;-)

http://i40.tinypic.com/oppgev.jpg

A typical cream 'dip'. If I could get this cream-dip method more consistent and repeatable accuracy would improve no doubt.
http://i43.tinypic.com/20pf3mu.jpg

...more next

[SniderBoomer]

Here's the shocker... Check out the fouling, or lack of, after FIFTY shots...
http://i39.tinypic.com/29psu38.jpg

That's a real image of the barrel as-was after 50 before cleaning. I cleaned that barrel with a single pull of a rag with hot soapy water. Just no fouling at all.

Next up, going to duplicate all I did here, but use some boolits made from harder 20-1 alloy (they cast a million time better) and try to find a way to get the cream-dip to be more consistent.

As always, comments or suggestions welcomed.

[Good Cheer]

Jeepers that looks like fun. On my projects list is paper patching minies for a .58 rebored TC Hawkens that used to be a rusty .54. Got the Lyman 577213 and the 577611. And then found out that the base plugs are different but interchangeable so that amounts to four bullets to try. These are the 577213 with the 577611 base plug.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/575213OSwith577611PlugPP_zpsc3eacc31.jpg (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/SNARGLEFLERK/media/575213OSwith577611PlugPP_zpsc3eacc31.jpg.html)

It comes out a little longer but should stabilize ok in the 48" twist.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/575213OSwith577611Plug_zps0e073ba1.jpg (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/SNARGLEFLERK/media/575213OSwith577611Plug_zps0e073ba1.jpg.html)

I'm thinking about maybe using a new plug with barely any cavity in the rear of the but haven't dialed these in yet.

[SniderBoomer]

Nice GoodCheer, let me know how you get on with these. I see you have the paper tucked into the cavity. I used a tuft of dacron to make the base 'level' best I could, and then 1/8th of an inch CoW directly underneath over the driving charge (50/50 mix on top of pure FFg). None of my recovered dacron or paper-patch showed any scorching at all.

Are you going to try a 'dip' like with the horses' 'Udder Cream' stuff I used?

I was frankly surprised they shot so well considering the paper wrap needed quite a few complete turns - WAY more than the normally accepted one or two turns for paper-patching as I know it. Perhaps the modest skirt expansion of the Minnie allows this 'over-patched' method to work, they shoot well from my stumpy little Cavalry Carbine, and the clean-up is so easy, I still can't really believe it, didn't even smell bad..

Looking forward to trying the harder, better-cast tin-alloy'd bullets, and I will also try a few shells with a higher main charge.

[dromia]

Udder cream does work well at keeping fouling soft and the barrel clean but I suspect the cleanliness of the barrel is as much if not more a function of the semolina as the udder cream.

[kootne]

Looks like you have found a good answer to your undersize bullet issue. I had a thought while reading this and looking at your pictures of the minies'. That skirt is so thin I don't think it would be much trouble to bump it up mechanicaly before loading. A quick and dirty way might be to drop a dowel plug into a fired case (dowel length such that a bullet drops in on top of the dowel flush to case mouth). Put the bullet in backwards, place something spherical like a bearing ball or a jacketed .45 round nose bullet in the hollow base and tap with a hammer till the skirt upsets to to case mouth diameter. Of course, don't go so far you can't get it back out. This is just a "proof of concept" idea, if it works more effort could been put into a better swaging die.
kootne

[John Boy]

But tinker we will I suppose... so I just got hold of a 520 grain .577 Minnie mold and I am just itchin to try these heavier Minnie's.

Trouble is, they are undersize for my barrel as you would expect, and they just drop clean into the fired, fireformed brass, again, as expected.
Just 'Beagle' the mold with adhesive backed aluminum HVAC tape. Takes less than 5 minutes and your mold will drop bigger diameter bullets that you can't differ from the original mold except the diameter
I do it all the time for molds - the latest a 6 cavity RB mold

[Cast Bullet Engineering]

How about these bullets, two that I make moulds for, the semi-wadcutter looking one is called a "Colin Clarke Bumble Bee" or CCBB for short.
It weighs in about 420 grains and .590" diameter.
The other one with the single lube grooves is also .590" but weighs 480 grains.

9324393244

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I can highly recommend the CCBB as well as another 620gn CBE boolit that I use in my "Super Snider" a rebarrelled Martini Henry with a new Lothar-Walther barrel of known dimensions .575/.585 1: 48"twist. Both are very accurate.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Picture013-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/Picture013-1.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/MSRearSight_zpsd17709f7.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/MSRearSight_zpsd17709f7.jpg.html)