What red dot sight for SRH .480 Ruger?

[Naphtali]

I've been investing time to learn more about red dot sights. The result includes some answers -- and more questions, of course.

Among the conventional red dot sight systems, Ultradot appears to have the best reputation with pistol shooters. Their warranty is excellent, list prices are competitive, and they are not made in Red China. This should have been the end of the quest.

Unfortunately, I couldn't leave it alone. I am put off by the clumsiness of having a telescopic sight-like device atop my SRHs. A second class of red dot sights is significantly smaller, lighter, more unobtrusive. Among them are: Docter red dot; Trijicon red dot; Ultradot L/T; Burris Fastfire. Apparently, these devices also allow through-lens-view of target, and they automatically adjust dot intensity according to ambient light.

The devices are significantly lighter than conventional devices. None should have trouble with recoil dislodging device from mount system. They mount via Weaver system, so mounting is no sweat. Since the devices are mounted predominantly on semiautomatic pistols, it is likely that recoil from my 480s will prove no problem. At least two sights claim to be so petite that they can be used with standard (M1911??) holsters.

The sights are more expensive than most conventional red dot devices. Materials of manufacture vary significantly. Some are plastic with Acrylic lenses. Some are aluminum with optical glass lenses. Some of the optical glass is low-end, BaK-7 in binocular-speak, but I doubt this is significant for a device whose effective range would be less than 150 meters.

And red dot size varies from a smallest of 3.5 MOA to 11 MOA. This may be the place to decide among these devices.

For use with a Super Redhawk .480 Ruger, what single dot size will be easiest to use from off-the-muzzle through 80 meters?

From my brief examination of the Millet Multidot device, I acquired the 8 MOA dot easily. But I was not at a shooting range. I did not shoot. I had no opportunity to learn to use the device with any size dot. And the examination did not include sighting at any range greater than about 10 yards.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/Naphtalitlk/Docter.jpg http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/Naphtalitlk/Fastfire.jpg http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/Naphtalitlk/L_T.jpg http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/Naphtalitlk/Trijicon.jpg

[Tom W.]

I've been toying with the Idea of the Burris on mine, The company assured me that the .480 recoil wouldn't hurt it. Funding is another problem, so for now I'll be happy with the Leupold 2X EER on it.

[Naphtali]

Tom: Burris' warranty on the Fastfire is but one year. The others I've looked at warrant for a lifetime. One, I believe, may warrant without regard to who bought the device.

What is your feeling about dot size?

[BigSlick]

Naphtali,

You may want to call each mfr and inquire about the sights holding up to heavy recoil of a stout revolver caliber.

I called Trijicon regarding a Reflex II I have mounted on my 500SW. They adamantly claimed it would hold up to the recoil, no problem.

First cylinder out of the tube, the sun shade disentigrated and the mount bent.

Millett said their 3 MOA dot would 'probably' hold up. If it didn't, just send it in for repair.

First round fired, trashed the scope. I sent it in and they denied my claim indicating the recoil damage wasn't covered.

I still use the Reflex II, without the sun shade, and with a different mount, it works, but it would be nice to adjust the intensity. The Millett I have on my Ruger Mark III has been perfect in every respect. But, that isn't exactly the same application of course.

I have a Leupold 2x8 that has held up nicely, but it is boat anchor heavy. I haven't tried a Burris equivalent, but hear good things about them. I have used Burris scopes in the past (for a short while) and generally had mediocre to good results.

Not trying to tell you what to do of course, just conveying some costly experiences on my part.

HTH,

'Slick
________
VAPORIZER REVIEWS (http://vaporizers.tv/)

[Tom W.]

Not knowing for sure, I'd think a 3 M.O.A. dot should be small enough for the ranges that you indicate. I'd have to look through some and see. I spend a lot of time at www.riflescopes.com looking around.

[oldfart]

ah you should just trade that old ruger 480 for my ruger 44 :)

[Tom W.]

Sorry, I already have one of each!

[44man]

Don't even hesitate! Ultra Dot.
I got tired of destroying things. After thousands of shots with my .475 and 45-70, the Ultra Dot is still perfect.

[fecmech]

I believe ( but am not sure) that the Trijicon is a rebranded Optima/JPoint. I had 3 of them on my Browning Hipower 9mm slide and they did not hold up . JP enterprises to their credit did refund my money and sent me a free J point which I have on my .22 S&W Kit gun. I would recommend the Ultra Dot also as I have one mounted on the slide of my 1911 .45. It's been on there 2 years now in excess of 5000 rds and I've never had to adjust the zero. It rides the slide for every shot slamming back with the recoil and slamming shut with the reloaded round. Impresses the hell out of me!

[Naphtali]

I've done some of the background.

Millett identifies only their new Zoom Dot as being reliable on .480 Ruger. Being a conventional-sized device, I'm not rushing to get one.

Trijicon claims that they also manufacture the Docter Red Dot sight. I cannot yet confirm manufacturing location or details. Trijicon's body is polymer -- why dress up plastic with a silly non-specific name? -- and the lens is Acrylic. Docter Red Dot's body is aluminum and the lens is optical glass. Dimensions of these two sights are different. Other than resembling one another, as do all others, these devices have little in common -- dot sizes, magnification, dimensions, etc. Apparently, there is one distributor for Trijicon AND Docter, and another solely for Docter? Unless, of course, one or both is pulling my leg.

Burris Fastfire has an aluminum body with optical glass lens. While they warrant most products for a lifetime, this product is warranted for one year. Why?

I have no information on Ultradot L/T yet.

Until today I was unaware that TruGlo offered Dot-Point. I have queried them.
***
Tom: We may be chatting at cross-purposes. You want the dot as small as possible while being able to use it. I want the dot as large as possible while being able to use it at 80 meters. I anticipate the large dot will be no liability at closer ranges since it covers less target.

I do not have experience with red dot sights to determine how large I can go without penalty. I suspect 11 MOA is too large, and I'm nearly certain 3.5 MOA is needlessly small. But this leaves a lot of "I have no clue" sizes.

[Naphtali]

Here is text of Trijicon's reply to my query**************
1. I own Ruger Super Redhawk revolvers in .480 Ruger caliber. Will the Trijicon red dot sight function correctly and safely on these heavy recoiling revolvers?
Our TRD is seeing use on the new S&W .460 and .500 Will the sight mount using Weaver mount adapter? The MS22 mount is available for Ruger revolvers but, if yours has a rail the MS19 works

2. When aiming the Trijicon red dot sight at the target, do I view the target THROUGH THE SIGHT?
YES

3. When aiming the Docter red dot sight at the target, do I view the target THROUGH THE SIGHT?
YES

4. What is the field of view through the sight when viewed at "aiming" distance from eyes?
All you DO NOT see is the little obscured by the edge of the sight itself

5. I have vision problems. I am concerned about being able to see the dot in certain light. Does the sight automatically adjust dot brightness to ambient light conditions? If it does, is the adjustment user programmable? If the user cannot program brightness adjustment, can programming be overridden?
Both use photo sensors that are non-adjustable-brighter in bright light

6. My experience with Acrylic lenses in spectacles is not good. Lenses scratch easily. And precision of grind is poor when compared with optical glass. How did you address these problems on the Trijicon red dot?
It still requires some care and maintenance but, is very tough

7. You have available the Trijicon variation and the Docter Optic red dot sights Please identify warranties of each. For repairs I would follow the instructions on your repairs page?
TRD has lifetime warranty, repairs at our factory. Docter has 2 year warranty, repairs direct to Germany

Sincerely,
Eric Lockhart
Customer Service
1-800-338-0563
ext 148
www.trijicon.com

[22cf45]

Fecmech offers very good advice. Go with the proven Ultra Dot. I do the same as he does, I have Ultra Dots mounted on the slides of my competition .45 acp's. I have had them on for many years and generally shoot them 4000-5000 rounds per year. I've never needed to have one repaired. Up and down the shooting line, Ultra Dot's prevail by a vast margin. Every now and then, someone trys one of the others, but soon they are right back to Ultra Dot.
Phil

[Naphtali]

Fecmech offers very good advice. Go with the proven Ultra Dot. I do the same as he does, I have Ultra Dots mounted on the slides of my competition .45 acp's. I have had them on for many years and generally shoot them 4000-5000 rounds per year. I've never needed to have one repaired. Up and down the shooting line, Ultra Dot's prevail by a vast margin. Every now and then, someone trys one of the others, but soon they are right back to Ultra Dot.
Phil
Phil: Are you and Fecmech referring to the Ultradot L/T? If YES, how is it mounted on the .45 ACPs slides? Do you have difficulty acquiring the 4 MOA dot? Does Ultradot warrant the L/T as they do their conventional red dot sights? Or do they "do a Burris" and reduce the warranty to much shorter duration (one year for Burris)?

[fecmech]

Naphtli--I did not even know that Ultra Dot had the L/T! My experience is with the 30 mm tube type sight (click on the thumbnail under my previous post). They have a long history as rugged sights. In answer to some of your other questions I think the 4 min dot is a good all around size. It will give decent precision out to 100 yds or better. Not as good as a scope but a heck of a lot better than irons. To me one downside to the sights that set the brightness automatically is they are usually too bright for pecision shooting. This is especially true on bright sunny days when it will radiate a star like effect that will about double the area covered on the target by the dot. This will be agravated by the tiny scratches you get in plastic lenses. My optima 2000 with 4 min dot on a sunny day would completely cover a 5" black bull at 50 yds. When shooting for serious I set my dot brightness to the minimum level that I can see it plainly, that gives me the most precise aiming point. Hope this helps. Nick

[Naphtali]

Naphtli--I did not even know that Ultra Dot had the L/T! My experience is with the 30 mm tube type sight (click on the thumbnail under my previous post). They have a long history as rugged sights. I believe it became available in 2007. See my graphic on previous entry. This second class of red dot sights looks similar, as do the conventional red dot sights. So far Ultradot support has not furnished any information on the L/T sight beyond what is on the web sight. And, so far, no one seems to have used it or owned it.

But as you point out, it is an Ultradot product.

[mike in co]

if you have not used them there are some other things to know about the low profile dots vs the tube dots.

for the record i have three AIMPOINT's. i have shot others, but the aimpoints are the best in my opinion.

i shoot one on an nra action pistol...cz85 9mm.
one on an ar15 for three gun competiton, and
one on a ruger srh in 44 rem mag for 50 yd steel matches

the only place i get to see comparisons is at the 44 steeel matches. when you raise your pistol, the tube helps align on the target, meaning the dot is there too. i have watched several of my competitors with non-tube/low profile dots. when they come up on the target, they are moving the gun around trying to find the dot!
you have heard the term aim small, miss small ??
stick with small moa dots. i have a 1 moa on the nra action pistol,a 2 moa on the srh, and the ar15 has a 2moa( this is a 4 moa with a forward 2x lens, net results a 2x lens with a 2moa dot).
you will havve more trouble seeing your target in brush/shadows than not seeing the dot due to brightness.
mike
you will learn to like that big ugly hump on top of your gun........

[Naphtali]

i have watched several of my competitors with non-tube/low profile dots. when they come up on the target, they are moving the gun around trying to find the dot!
you have heard the term aim small, miss small ??
stick with small moa dots. i have a 1 moa on the nra action pistol,a 2 moa on the srh, and the ar15 has a 2moa( this is a 4 moa with a forward 2x lens, net results a 2x lens with a 2moa dot).
you will havve more trouble seeing your target in brush/shadows than not seeing the dot due to brightness.
mike
you will learn to like that big ugly hump on top of your gun........The difficulty you describe for non-tube/low profile dot users is remarkably like my problem with pistol scopes. Are the competitors having difficulty acquiring the dot because they are using small dots in their effort toward precise aiming, or because the sight's field of view is narrow, or both??

Extreme precision is unneeded and probably retrograde. Being able to hold ± 3 inches of point of aim is adequate at 80 meters. From my difficulty seeing pistol scopes reticles, I think bigger reticles are easier for me to acquire. Regarding brighter vs. dimmer red dots being easier to acquire, perhaps adjustable brightness is better alternative to automatically adjustable brightness.

I am nearly in a Catch-22 situation. I know what does not work for me, and I think I know why. But I don't have access to what I think will work for me. And errors in judgment will be expensive.

[22cf45]

Naphtali wrote- Phil: Are you and Fecmech referring to the Ultradot L/T? If YES, how is it mounted on the .45 ACPs slides? Do you have difficulty acquiring the 4 MOA dot? Does Ultradot warrant the L/T as they do their conventional red dot sights? Or do they "do a Burris" and reduce the warranty to much shorter duration (one year for Burris)?

Naphtali
I'm sorry but i know nothing about the Ultradot L/T. I use the 1" Ultradot with 4 dot sizes available, 4, 8, 12, & 16 min. At present, I'm shooting the 8 min dot but at other times, I have used the 4 and the 12. I know high Masters that use all the sizes except the 16, so I think dot size is mostly a personal perference issue. As is dot intensity. You'll notice Fecmech said he prefers the minimum brightness, while I want it as bright as possible just short of causing halo's. I feel the brighter dot helps me to concentrate on it. However, Brian Zins says not to look at the dot, but to look at the target. Hard to argue with an 8 time National Champion.

If I am having troube acquiring the dot, it is not the fault of the dot size, but rather, the fact that I do not have my arm and wrist locked in the proper way, proper grip, or I haven't placed my feet at the correct angle to insure a return to my natural point of aim through the recoil recovery process. When I have done these things properly, the dot naturally returns. This is absolutely necessary particularly in the rapid fire stage, i.e. 5 shots, 10 seconds., Dont have time to look for it.
Phil

[bobthenailer]

i currently have over 20 red dot sights and have owned over 40 over the years , ive been useing them since aimpoint came out with the 1000 . i have them on some rifles and alomost all of my pistol from 22 to 454 casull . the ultra dot is a excellent red dot sight , with a lifetime warentee but the field of view is usually smaller than most scopes of the 30 mm size. the aimpoint has held up well on my 44s and 454 casulls it is my favorite brand of red dot sight , i have 6 of them . on my 6 inch 454 i wanted it to be as compact and as light as possible so i tried a doctor sight 1st and 2 ed generation the dot is always to bright which for me distractes me from makeing a accurate shot, i tried the pride /fowler special ops sight which is like a doctor but with a off, auto and full brightness switch, in the auto position the sight only goes to about 3/4 brightness which gives you a nice round dot in all shooting condtions and if you should need full power jut push the switch, another advantage is you can change the battery without removing the sight through a trap door, the quallity is as good or better than the doctor . and so far it has held up to about 1500 rounds of 260 gr bullets at 1000 fps 400 rounds of 300 gr at 1450 fps and 200 rounds of 260 gr at 1800fps without lossing adjustments. they are avalible from midway. as for dot size i would get from 3 to a 5 min dot. dont get the trupoint sight i had 2 when they first came out they were the 2 worst red dot sights ive ever see they were usless the paralexx was so bad even if you moved your head a little the point of impact changed. bob

[Newtire]

I haven't tried a Burris equivalent, but hear good things about them. I have used Burris scopes in the past (for a short while) and generally had mediocre to good results.

I had a Burris 2X on a 3-screw Super Blackhawk that held up to the .44 mag OK but target aquisition was lousy. FWIW

[Naphtali]

Okay, part of the problem is solved. I bought two Ultradot L/Ts. They should arrive within the week.

Part of the problem remains. What is the most durable and secure mount for the L/T to Super Redhawk .480 Ruger? I am nearly certain whatever mount base accompany the L/Ts will not mount on a Super Redhawk. I asked Larry Carter several weeks ago. He did not respond.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/Naphtalitlk/L_T.jpg

[GSPKurt]

Get the Weigand 454 base. The B-Square is crap.

Where didja get the L/T? Price? What type of reticle?

[Naphtali]

Get the Weigand 454 base. The B-Square is crap.

Where didja get the L/T? Price? What type of reticle?Kurt:

I bought from Mike Mendoza at Ultradot West. L/Ts have a 4 MOA dot, to the best of my knowledge.

I'm embarrassed to admit I paid $209.00 for two NIB L/Ts, delivered. . . . And yes, I believe Mike has a few remaining to sell.

[GSPKurt]

Kurt:

I bought from Mike Mendoza at Ultradot West. L/Ts have a 4 MOA dot, to the best of my knowledge.

I'm embarrassed to admit I paid $209.00 for two NIB L/Ts, delivered. . . . And yes, I believe Mike has a few remaining to sell.

Lance-
$209 for both? NIIIiiiice...:drinks:

[GSPKurt]

I just looked at UDW- $209 EACH. Duh!

[marsofold]

Let us know how they worked out. I'm considering getting one for my SRH casull...

[Dale53]

There is a lot of good information on Red Dot Sights, here. I have been seriously investigating this (red dot sights) this past year and now have a half dozen of different brands.

One thing that has NOT been addressed here is that Sight "A's" three minute dot is different than Sight "B's" three minute dot. There apparently are no standards and I have no solution to offer except to just "buy and try". Unsatisfactory state of affairs, but "that is how it is"...

I am not terribly sensitive to whether it is 3 minute or 5 minute but your sensitivity may be different than mine (along with our eyesight differences). The safest plan in this situation is to get a sight with more than one size (like my Ultra Dot with FOUR). Personally, I tend to like the smaller dots.

Again, YMMV.

Dale53

[odoh]

I too was looking at the L/T. After discussing it w/Larry @ Larrys Guns (a distributor and warranty station for UltraDots for the US), I felt it prudent to stick w/the enclosed/tube type red dot units as they're not as prone to breakage (bump the hoop and the glass can fall out and repair costs for 'mishandling' will be on the consumer) and waterproof. A raindrop in the wrong place on the screen can prevent seeing the dot (not to mention the battery tray) on an open type whereas w/an enclosed type, the dot still appears. Our discussion indicated that most were sold to competition shooters which may be shooting (smaller/lighter recoiling guns) in fair weather/under a cover and the application of my SRH 454 is for hunting ~ sometimes in the rain.

Over on the greybeard board (freedom arms) there is an experienced handgun hunter that hunts w/handguns in far-off exotic places like africa that uses an open style Docter unit apparently w/sucess and w/o any problem and is certified waterproof. It looks very similar but w/battery tray on the bottom and dismounting would be necessary to change battery ~ but the Docter unit costs 2.5X more than the L/T. I decided to wait a spell until there is more field experience with the L/T before deciding. Meanwhile, as I'm not getting any younger, will continue w/the more rugged yet bulkier proven enclosed/tube type.

[Dale53]

My home range faces South (not the most desirable, but that is what we have). The morning sun hits you right in the face in spite of the range roof. Using the supplied "extension" with the tube type Red Dots (as per standard Ultra Dots) the problem is totally solved. Using the tube type WITHOUT the exptension and you have to fight glare inside the sight.

I suspect that the open type (just recently purchased two but haven't yet tried them in all circumstances) will be a bit of a problem (not unusable, but just less than desired).

FWIW

Dale53

[odoh]

When I started shopping for a red dot, my emphasis was on smaller dot sizes. Perhaps that because for most of my life, I was interested in long range precision rifle shooting. Having acquired a match dot w/its various sized dots I do not feel disadvantaged w/a 4~6" dot as my handgun interests is basically in hunting accuracy and a larger dot is quicker to pickup. I do appreciate the smaller dots still ~ just not afraid of the larger dot sizes.

[Naphtali]

I just looked at UDW- $209 EACH. Duh!Just give him a call.
***
Regarding durability, We shall see. I have greater concern about mounting a heavier, more cumbersome sight than durability, per se.
***
I am very concerned about dot size. At just over $100 each for the L/Ts, I think I can attempt to train myself to use a 4 MOA dot -- if I can acquire that size at all.
***
Regarding glare, where I am in western Montan is heavily forested. I do not expect glare to be an insurmountable problem.
***
Kurt: I forgot to tell you in my E-mail that I've taken your advice. I will be using Weigand's .454/.480 SRH mount. When talking with Mr. Mendoza, he mentioned something I had not considered. L/Ts need a small part of Weigand's mount. What do you think about removing that front portion I won't use?

[GSPKurt]

Just give him a call.
***
Regarding durability, We shall see. I have greater concern about mounting a heavier, more cumbersome sight than durability, per se.
***
I am very concerned about dot size. At just over $100 each for the L/Ts, I think I can attempt to train myself to use a 4 MOA dot -- if I can acquire that size at all.
***
Regarding glare, where I am in western Montana is heavily forested. I do not expect glare to be an insurmountable problem.
***
Kurt: I forgot to tell you in my E-mail that I've taken your advice. I will be using Weigand's .454/.480 SRH mount. When talking with Mr. Mendoza, he mentioned something I had not considered. L/Ts need a small part of Weigand's mount. What do you think about removing that front portion I won't use?


Lance-
There is a recoil post that fits in each of the top strap cutouts where the Ruger rings mount. You can cut it, but then if you ever decide to mount a scope, you will have to get another base. Your decision. I think it looks fine as is. That Weigand mount is so far superior, I can't imagine anyone would buy the B-Square.