Water Dropping...

[offshore44]

So the current project is getting my StG-58 to shoot lead. In that quest I water dropped some 94-3-3 alloy that I cooked up with what I had on hand, with a resulting BHN of about 28 +/- using a Lee hardness tester.

The question is: What happens with terminal ballistics with a water dropped boolit? Does it act like the 13 - 14 BHN alloy that isn't water dropped? Does it act like a 28 BHN alloy?

Switching subject firearms to my hunting rifle. The reason that I am asking is that it seems that a little more oomph is available from the round with a water dropped boolit, than a non-water dropped boolit. Better accuracy at a higher velocity in other words. If the round augers through like a FMJ though, it's only useful for paper punching. Not a bad thing for killing paper, but not useful when stalking Bambi.

My search here on the subject resulted in lots of words dancing around the subject and not a lot of clear cut answers. My search-fu may just be weak.

[sqlbullet]

They are gonna behave like a hard bullet in my experience. I don't think they will be quite as brittle as linotype or monotype, but they will be more brittle than an air-cooled boolit.

[BruceB]

For the limited number of bullets needed for ACTUAL SHOTS AT GAME ANIMALS, make up some cast softpoints with pure-lead noses and harder-metal shanks.

These can be water-dropped to give the same hardness in the shanks as your practice bullets have throughout, while the soft noses are unaffected by the water-dropping process and retain their softness.

Practice and zeroing can be done with the 'normal' bullets from the same mould, reserving the softpoints, as mentioned above, for actual shots at game. A mere handful of softpoints used in this manner will last for quite a while.

[offshore44]

Thanks for the reply's, folks.

That's kinda what I was guessing...hard is hard.

When stalking bambi...the usual alloy is in order. The StG-58 gets a diet of the harder stuff, and punches paper then. The StG-58 mashes the living you-know-what out of the noses of a hunting alloy cast boolit when fed from the magazine. It was designed to feed 148 grn FMJ's reliably under all conditions and at a great rate. But then, I'm pretty sure Dieudonné Saive never intended it to shoot cast when he designed it. Should do a good job of it though.

Thanks again...

[offshore44]

For the limited number of bullets needed for ACTUAL SHOTS AT GAME ANIMALS, make up some cast softpoints with pure-lead noses and harder-metal shanks.

These can be water-dropped to give the same hardness in the shanks as your practice bullets have throughout, while the soft noses are unaffected by the water-dropping process and retain their softness.

Practice and zeroing can be done with the 'normal' bullets from the same mould, reserving the softpoints, as mentioned above, for actual shots at game. A mere handful of softpoints used in this manner will last for quite a while.

True enough, BruceB...true enough.

I haven't tried your soft pointing technique, yet. It's a bit advanced for my skill level, but it's on the list.

[GlocksareGood]

So what is your load for your STG-58? Interested since I am in the same boat. I figured with the adjustable gas system I could make most anything work. I have a NOE 311365 that i want to try.

[offshore44]

So what is your load for your STG-58? Interested since I am in the same boat. I figured with the adjustable gas system I could make most anything work. I have a NOE 311365 that i want to try.

Still working on loads... Right now I'm getting the COL, diameters, feeding and etc. worked out. The RCBS 30-165SIL boolit fits really well in the leade / throat of my DSA, and cycles by hand perfectly from the magazine. Pretty limited on powders at the moment, as I have burned up most of my "testing powders" keeping the rest of the herd shooting. I'm hoping that something that I have on the shelf will show an accuracy node in the 1,900 - 2,100 fps range with groups under 2" at 100 yards.

BruceB did a really nice workup on M1A's that got me to thinking about cast in the FAL. Here's a link to that thread: BruceB's M1A Thread (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?3558-7-62x51-NATO-%28-308-WCF%29-in-the-Springfield-M1A) I'm going to try H4895, Varget, 4064, 5744 as that is what I currently have on hand that should work. My guess is that H4895 and / or Varget will be what I settle on in the end. I'll do a thread on that in the "Military Rifles" when I actually get there. Right now I'm skosh on gas checks.

You're right about the adjustable gas system on the FAL. We should get most anything reasonable to cycle the action reliably. The FAL has a maximum design size gas port and bleeds gas out of the system to control cycling. No need to drill out the gas port or do other hinkey stuff to get a little more gas on the piston. Mine shoots commercial ball on a gas setting of 3, but needs the gas bleed shut down to about 5 to shoot some DAG surplus with marginal case specs. The rims and cases are pretty mangled on the DAG when this thing gets done with it, but it feeds and ejects with enthusiasm. :)

The DSA rep that I e-mailed with was telling me that this particular rifle had a Badger barrel on it with a lot of bells and whistles thrown in. A tight chamber was one of the "extras" that came with the barrel. The DAG was surplussed, I think, because the brass was on the fat and / or long side of specs for 7.62x51mm NATO. Anyway, it's tight in the chamber. Works 95% of the time, but not 100%. FTF or FTE about once a magazine. (that's 5% right? Let's see divide by twenty, carry the one, check the star date...yup, 'bout 5%) Wow, hijacking my own thread here...

Look for a write up in the "Military Rifles" section after the first of the year. This should be a fun project.

[357maximum]

You can also just stand them up in a pan of water up to the level you want a softer nose on(I normally choose the crimp area) and simply just hit them with a propane torch to anneal the nose back to unquenched......much easier and less fumblin about with almost zero chance of burning your fingers. Makes a dandy boolit version of a partition bullet.

Easier yet is to choose a tough but mallable alloy that has less brittle by nature waterdropped traits in the first place.

One does not need juggle hot lead in multiple steps to make a good tough/mallable boolit that will work stellar on game.....your choice, your boolits, your fingers, your deer/critter. Bruces' system works, but it is not the only way.

[offshore44]

You can also just stand them up in a pan of water up to the level you want a softer nose on(I normally choose the crimp area) and simply just hit them with a propane torch to anneal the nose back to unquenched......much easier and less fumblin about with almost zero chance of burning your fingers. Makes a dandy boolit version of a partition bullet.

Easier yet is to choose a tough but mallable alloy that has less brittle by nature waterdropped traits in the first place.

One does not need juggle hot lead in multiple steps to make a good tough/mallable boolit that will work stellar on game.....your choice, your boolits, your fingers, your deer/critter. Bruces' system works, but it is not the only way.

Nice! Another technique to try!

The original idea was to use the StG-58 for hunting. That's not looking like such a good idea at the moment. It needs a hard nose to survive the trip from the magazine to the chamber without pre-mangling the nose. Oh well, it's still fun to shoot. The bolt gun in .308 thrives on much softer and more malleable alloys currently. For plinking and shooting varmints, it does just fine with range scrap with a little tin added, 45-45-10 lube over a mild dose of Red Dot. Accurate and very tractable, kinda a big .22 Mag. I have no idea how fast they are going, but they will bust a bunny for the pot with some authority. Don't know if they expand, never recovered a boolit.

[BruceB]

This thread is now getting back into the EXACT reasons that I embarked on a search for CONSISTENT, REPEATABLE, RELIABLE softpoints.

Torching the noses might work in the short term, but it is "iffy". I say "short term" because a softened bullet will eventually revert to its former hardness.

Pure lead is a known, enduring, consistent factor. It will NOT alter its hardness...PERIOD. It will remain dead-soft. A bullet containing tin and antimony WILL change over a relatively-short period of time.

I will repeat...the cast softpoint requires virtually NO extra equipment, and the number of softpoints needed for actual hunting is very small.

The effort needed to produce good softpoints that WILL hold together, WILL expand, and WILL [penetrate is very small, and well worth it.

Still, I'd be the last man to say my way is the only way. Y'all go ahead and do as you please. My project was an effort to maximize the performance of a cast hunting bullet to a degree similar to a Nosler Partition, and I do think it was successful in accomplishing that objective. Take a look at some of the recovered bullets in the original thread.

The wee bit of extra "work" is inconsequential to me.

[richhodg66]

This thread is now getting back into the EXACT reasons that I embarked on a search for CONSISTENT, REPEATABLE, RELIABLE softpoints.

Torching the noses might work in the short term, but it is "iffy". I say "short term" because a softened bullet will eventually revert to its former hardness.

Pure lead is a known, enduring, consistent factor. It will NOT alter its hardness...PERIOD. It will remain dead-soft. A bullet containing tin and antimony WILL change over a relatively-short period of time.

I will repeat...the cast softpoint requires virtually NO extra equipment, and the number of softpoints needed for actual hunting is very small.

The effort needed to produce good softpoints that WILL hold together, WILL expand, and WILL [penetrate is very small, and well worth it.

Still, I'd be the last man to say my way is the only way. Y'all go ahead and do as you please. My project was an effort to maximize the performance of a cast hunting bullet to a degree similar to a Nosler Partition, and I do think it was successful in accomplishing that objective. Take a look at some of the recovered bullets in the original thread.

The wee bit of extra "work" is inconsequential to me.

Deer season is still kinda going on here (state regular season is over) but I'm not gonna change tactics now.

For next year, however, I'm going to try Bruce's soft nose technique with the RCBS 180 FN and another Savage 99, probably a .303 Savage. Despite the fact that both the last deer I shot with cast died pretty fast, I wasn't satisfied with the exit holes and blood trail, I'm hoping this method will solve that problem.

[Defcon-One]

I am gonna get in trouble again, but water dropping is a waste of time. A futile attempt to make a cheap alloy into a better one. Like alchemy, making Lead into Gold, it really doesn't work.

Sounds like you can mix a good alloy. So, mix the alloy that you want. Lead, Antimony, Tin, etc. then cast it and shoot it. Save yourself all of the extra work and hassles. The cost difference is not that big and the lead will be the hardness that you want because it is!

To harden them right, you must cast them, size them, heat them, water drop them, lube them and load them. Nobody does that, they just water drop them out of the mold and then size and lube them which soften the bearing surface, the one that matters, right back to what it was before you 'hardened" them.

[ShooterAZ]

What is wrong with AC 3/3/94? I've been using 2.5/2.5/95 for hunting and it does fine(so far). I do not push it much beyond 2000 fps though.

[Defcon-One]

What is wrong with AC 3/3/94? I've been using 2.5/2.5/95 for hunting and it does fine(so far). I do not push it much beyond 2000 fps though.

Nothing, It is a great alloy. So is Lyman #2! That is exactly my point. Make a good alloy and use it. Don't waste the time and effort trying get more than is possible out of an inferior alloy!

[offshore44]

The original question was a matter of curiosity more than anything. When I hunt, I've been using bolt guns and 94-3-3, or softer, alloys. They work just fine, as expected. When I started messing about with the StG-58 and cast, the question popped into my mind that why not use it for hunting on occasion. That lead to the question of "What does a Water Dropped alloy act like when used for hunting?".

The StG mangles the noses on ANY exposed lead tipped bullet or boolit. Jacketed Soft Point, Cast of any usable alloy or Hollow Point FMJ. The nose gets deformed due to the violence of the reloading cycle. It's the price we pay for 100% reliable feeding under any circumstances. The FAL design was intended for Main Battle Rifles to stop Soviet troops at the Fulda Gap. Deer hunting was never part of the design criteria. It's kinda like pulling a boat with a Corvette, sure it can be done but your results may vary.

To distill what everyone is saying: Water dropped boolits are hard for internal ballistics and terminal ballistics. There is more than one way to make a viable soft tipped hunting boolit with a hard shank. It isn't really necessary to go to that effort unless special circumstances dictate it. Shooting is fun and opinions vary.

As an aside, 90% or more of my hunting is done with a 405 grn paper patched boolit made from 16-1 alloy cruising along at about 1,800 fps. I shoot that out of a 458 win mag bolt gun. Super accurate and exemplary terminal ballistics. Seldom have to take a second shot unless I make a poor decision on bullet placement. 1/2" hole in, 1-1/2" hole out, good blood trail and very little blood shot meat. The critters don't go far, but no bang-flops yet. This whole discussion came up because I thought it would be interesting to hunt deer with an StG-58 and I didn't want to shoot one with the cast equivalent of an FMJ.

Thanks for all of the input! More thoughts on the subject are appreciated.

[cbrick]

To harden them right, you must cast them, size them, heat them, water drop them, lube them and load them. Nobody does that,

Hhmmm . . . Yes, somebody does. :mrgreen:

Rick

[357maximum]

There are several NOBODY'S on this forum apparently. :mrgreen:

[waksupi]

No kidding! Size them the same day you cast and water drop, and I will guarantee they will be hard the next day!