winchester and ideal molds

[labradigger1]

I bought about 23 molds yesterday and 2 of them i cannot find info on.
One is an old ideal fixed mold ( not removable) single cavity, the only numbers on it are on the sprue plate. #'s are 25 77, i am assuming 25 caliber/77 grn. Anyone familliar with this mold? I have had several old fixed ideals through the years and they all have casted perfect boolits.
Second mold is an old winchester 45-70 mold, single cavity, wood handles, brass ferrules on ends of handles. Mold is in excellent shape and blueing is probably 98% there. Any thoughts on value of this one? I had to pay a premium for the lot as the owner would not seperate the winchester mold (darnitt). Anyhow, any info would be appreciated. I will be listing probably about 15 moulds or so in next couple of days. Most are ones you dont see everyday. 43 spanish/11mm, 7.7-8mm, several 32-20 molds, 38-55, 405 winchester and such. My brother in law is wanting to get into casting and will let me know what he wants tomorrow evening and he gets first dibs.
Thanks for any replies, Lab

[Bent Ramrod]

The Ideal mould you describe is typical of the earliest moulds that John Barlow made in the 1890's. You are correct is surmising that it is a .25 caliber of 77 gr weight, (unless, of course, the sprue plate has been switched from another mould). The Ideal name and address is typically stamped on the right hand block. The cavity should look like the Ideal 25720 flat nose with three grease grooves; this was the original weight specified for the .25-20 Single Shot when it was a handloaded wildcat. I would surmise that the mould has no set screw on the left block to hold the sprue plate screw tight. That came along later.

This simple caliber-weight designation got impossible to follow as the nose shapes, groove and shank thicknesses and so on for the same calibers began to proliferate in the cavity designs. Later nonremovable block designs began to have the now common six-digit cherry number, sometimes with a nominal weight afterwards, stamped on the left hand block. The set screw showed up at that time as well.

Barlow worked in the mould and loading tool department at Winchester before going off on his own account and starting the Ideal company. Winchester moulds were very well made, typically cut to cast to the exact diameters of the Winchester calibers they were used in. The earliest Winchester moulds had no wood on the handles, but later ones had the wood and were a little less punishing to use.

You can get a pretty good idea of what the Winchester and Ideal moulds go for by checking E-Bay and Gunbroker. I would guess that you haven't lost much by having had to buy the whole lot of moulds at once.

[labradigger1]

The Ideal mould you describe is typical of the earliest moulds that John Barlow made in the 1890's. You are correct is surmising that it is a .25 caliber of 77 gr weight, (unless, of course, the sprue plate has been switched from another mould). The Ideal name and address is typically stamped on the right hand block. The cavity should look like the Ideal 25720 flat nose with three grease grooves; this was the original weight specified for the .25-20 Single Shot when it was a handloaded wildcat. I would surmise that the mould has no set screw on the left block to hold the sprue plate screw tight. That came along later.

This simple caliber-weight designation got impossible to follow as the nose shapes, groove and shank thicknesses and so on for the same calibers began to proliferate in the cavity designs. Later nonremovable block designs began to have the now common six-digit cherry number, sometimes with a nominal weight afterwards, stamped on the left hand block. The set screw showed up at that time as well.

Barlow worked in the mould and loading tool department at Winchester before going off on his own account and starting the Ideal company. Winchester moulds were very well made, typically cut to cast to the exact diameters of the Winchester calibers they were used in. The earliest Winchester moulds had no wood on the handles, but later ones had the wood and were a little less punishing to use.

You can get a pretty good idea of what the Winchester and Ideal moulds go for by checking E-Bay and Gunbroker. I would guess that you haven't lost much by having had to buy the whole lot of moulds at once.




^^^^ ideal mold has 3 grease grooves +1 for crimp. No writing on blocks or handle, you are correct surmising that the sprue bolt has no set screw, neither does the winchester mold.
Winchester mold also has 330 after 45-70.
Thanks for the reply, sounds like you know your old molds, i am jealous.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

No info on the Ideal mold, but the Winchester is definitely a much sought after goodie, and in 45-70 govt. Molds are getting harder to find and especially for one in premium/good shape at least a hundred $ would be not only a bargain but a fair price to boot. These molds made by Winchester usually had the bullet weight stamped on one of the handles and mfg markings were clearly stamped on one of the blocks. They were not vented, single cavity and very well made. I have two;both in 38-55 @ 255 grain and they cast excellently, at .379" with WW metal. LLS

[Bent Ramrod]

I appreciate the thought, Labradigger, but what I know is more about where to get the info than the actual info itself. Check out the Antique Reloading Tool Collectors' web site, or, better still, join and get the Newsletter, and soon, you will be the erudite expert with the answers to all those arcane questions. ;)