Any .45 caliber rifle cartridge similar to 460 S&W ?

[ohland]

While stumbling around Al Gore's internet, I was unable to find any mention of a 45 caliber rifle case similar to that of the 460 S&W, er, 454 Casull, er, 45 Long Colt. I have a Browning 1885 low wall in 45 Long Colt. Interested in finding a comparable rifle case for black powder. No desire to kick the tires and light the fires on a steady diet of 460 S&W.

Is there a 45 caliber rifle cartridge that the 45 Long Colt chamber can be reamed out to?

:coffeecom

[C. Latch]

Could you ream it out to 460 and just not load it very hot?

[BCRider]

I'm curious about just what it is that you want to do that the .45Colt can't do?

Also consider that the only reason for going to something larger cased is to hold more powder to achieve faster muzzle velocities. But in the end it really does not matter what size case you use. If the bullet accelerates to a given high muzzle velocity your shoulder is going to feel the results.

As I recall from reading around here the low wall isn't really set up to handle much extra pressure. So I'd suggest that you tread carefully before hot rodding your low wall. At the very least check to see what the action can withstand. If it turns out that it has a fairly stout action and barrel then you could consider the higher pressure and higher muzzle velocity "Ruger Only" reloads.

[ohland]

Sorry, but Cast Bullets is exceedingly slow today. My original post in no way anticipates stuffing lots of 460 S&W rounds loaded to maximum velocities through the low wall. After over a quarter century of magazine and belt fed stuff at random intervals, I have no desire to go to the edge.

Having said that, I'm not a pistolero. The 357 Max is about all I want to do with a high pressure cartridge (and a fine cartridge it is!). Not fired up over using a pistol cartridge of any kind. Haven't looked at what the Browning 1885 low wall has for a twist rate, nor have I looked at the suitable bullet weight, either.

Sharps used to use .451 as their groove size. No desire to mess with the original barrel. If it turns out that the twist and bullet weights won't happily coincide, I'll keep it 45 Long Colt.

BUT... fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Any Sharps cartridges for the .45 that would fit? I _assume_ that some rim diameter mismatch will happen, but as long as the rim for the new cartridge are not dreadfully larger, the chambering reamer should take care of the extractor as well. :coffeecom

[seaboltm]

Sounds like 45 Colt is about optimum for your application. If you want more in 45, sell your low wall and find something in 45-70, which seems to fit the bill of what you are looking for.

[ohland]

Amazing, you have figured out that the common (but effective) 45-70 is what I'm looking for! Brilliant! :Bright idea: Now what do I do with the other 45-70s?

Thanks, but the 45-70 is so common. Looking for un-common, but not so darned expensive for custom brass that I can't afford to shoot it. Fine line to draw.

:coffeecom

[Piedmont]

ohland, There is someone on this board, unfortunately I can't remember who, who had an Italian .45 Colt single shot which was a bit oversized on the barrel interior and he turned it into a .45-60 that he used with light .45-70 bullets sized to the low end, somewhere around .457". He was happy with it. That always struck me as a smart conversion.

Now if your Browning is tight in the barrel, maybe it won't work as well. It is probably smarter to just get a custom bullet mold for your .45 Colt with more bullet outside the case. Since you have a single shot there are no feeding worries or overall length concerns.

[MtGun44]

Isn't a 460 really just a hotted up .45-70?

Bill

[Piedmont]

No bill. It takes .452" bullet. More like a hotted up lengthened .454 Casuul and it can fire the Casuul and .45 Colts as sub loads if I am remembering correctly.

[ohland]

Out of the Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions, John J. Donnelly, 1987, ISBN 0-88317-136-8

Head Rim Neck Dia .45 Colt Long, Page 591
.481 .512 .480 .451

Head Rim Neck Dia .45-90 Sharps Straight, Page 605
.500 .597 .489 .451

Head Rim Neck Dia .45-100 Sharps 2.4", Page 609
.500 .597 .489 .451

.45-100 Sharps 2.6", .45-100 Sharps Straight, .45-120 Sharps Straight are also similar. Only thing to do is gather the case capacity in Cubic Inch or CC of the LC, 454, and 460.

Hmm, except that the 460 is heavier built, I'd consider it a Short Sharps Straight, or SSS.

460 S&W case length is 1.80 (akin to a SuperMag's 1.6")

Case capacity. Oops, I see some different figures. The below is probably close....

45 ACP .898 28.7
45LC 1.285 41.6
454 Casull 1.383 44.7
460 S&W 1.80 58.5
45-70 Govt 2.105" 79.0 gr
45-90 Win 2.400" 88.0 gr
45-100 Sharps 2.6" 2.600" 87.1 gr
45-110 Sharps 2 7/8" 2.875" 104.2 gr
45-120 Sharps 3 1/4" 3.250" 113.0 gr

[Doc_Stihl]

460 also operates at up to 65k PSI. Chambering a rifle to accept a cartridge even with the intention of only using it for light loads may get someone hurt down the road.

[ohland]

460 also operates at up to 65k PSI. Chambering a rifle to accept a cartridge even with the intention of only using it for light loads may get someone hurt down the road.

Oh heck. What could possibly go wrong with this?

460 S&W
Neck diameter .478 in (12.1 mm)
Base diameter .478 in (12.1 mm)
Rim diameter .520 in (13.2 mm)
Rim thickness .059 in (1.5 mm)

I would say that it is possible for a 460 to be dropped in a 45-100 chamber.

So, having proven that I'm an Alpha geek... Hmm, what about a 45-70 Sharps Straight? Cut down a 45-100... wow, I wish I had Obama's stash....

[Doc_Stihl]

I know a 460 will drop right into an Encore 410 chamber if that helps...

I thought briefly about rebarreling a lever 410 shotgun into a 45 Mongo(303 brass straight walled as a 410 replacement). but realized that I have a 45-70 and I can make it work from 45 colt level loads to WAY more than needed.

[ohland]

I know a 460 will drop right into an Encore 410 chamber if that helps...

Wow. Not sure, and I don't want to know, if the rim catches the counterbore.

[ohland]

Looking at the varied case lengths, it jumps from 1.8 for the 460 to 2.4 for the shortest Sharps Straight. Although I might be able to use the .45 Basic hull, what is the sweet spot?

What is the case capacity for popping out a 200gr boolit at @1600? 300gr boolit @1400-1500? Can the 45LC in a rifle come close?

[paul h]

45 colt in a strong six gun operating at 30,000 psi will push a 300 gr cast bullet 1200 fps from a 5 1/2" barrel. With a closed breach rifle barrel of 16-20", 1400-1500 fps should be no problem.

You'll want to get a rifle specific reamer ground, but other than that it's common available brass and dies, published data and reasonable pressures.

[Whiterabbit]

460 also operates at up to 65k PSI. Chambering a rifle to accept a cartridge even with the intention of only using it for light loads may get someone hurt down the road.


Ohland, why not short-chamber a 460 S&W? If you cut it to 1.55 and give it a LONG throat, a factory 460 will never fit. Not even a 445 supermag would fit (I don't know why you'd try that though).

With a LONG throat, you can chamber long bullets. I cast an RCBS 500-BPS for my 460S&W. Just push through a .452 sizer and it is good to go. I shoot it to 1350 fps using 31 grains of IMR4198 (in a 10" barrel). This load would easily fit inside a 460 S&W case cut to 1.55" long. I can just as easily download this load to much slower velocities, 25 grains of 4198 or even lower. Just plunk bullet on top of powder and go.

You would also have to turn the rims down a smidge to fit. they are bigger than a 45 colt.

Ranchdog 425 grain bullet are great too, just require a gas check.

1.55" would give you plenty of capacity to run black powder if you wanted. Or trailboss. And since it is not 45-xxx, brass is cheap from starline.

[Whiterabbit]

smattering of bullets:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=65955&d=1364705832

220 grains, 290 barnes, 425 ranchdog, 550 Hoch, 590 Led Zeppelin, 740 Ridiculous.

the 500-BPS would look just like the Hoch. You can see from case bulges that cutting the case .25 inches shorter would still give you plenty of seat space.

[Whiterabbit]

if you can figure out the extractor, you can also use 284 Winchester cases cut to WHATEVER length you want and straightwalled. (aka 450 bushmaster)

[C. Latch]

That 740 Ridiculous looks like it would ruin a bear's day, even if he charged from behind a large tree.

[Whiterabbit]

940 fps, and low recoil. Could probably ratchet it up to 1050-1100 fps if my wrists could take it, just not needed. 425 grains and a 6-cav mold drains a pot fast enough!

For the sake of being honest, I made up the name ridiculous, cause I couldn't remember the real bullet name (the rest are honest). It's the NEI-645-GC. Does weigh 740-ish grains.

[ohland]

If the end goal is stopping a full length 460 from being chambered, 1.700 would work, wouldn't it?

[ohland]

45 colt in a strong six gun operating at 30,000 psi will push a 300 gr cast bullet 1200 fps from a 5 1/2" barrel. With a closed breach rifle barrel of 16-20", 1400-1500 fps should be no problem.

You'll want to get a rifle specific reamer ground, but other than that it's common available brass and dies, published data and reasonable pressures.

That is something respectable. I will have to look at some T/C Contender / Redhawk loads.

[ohland]

Ohland, why not short-chamber a 460 S&W? If you cut it to 1.55 and give it a LONG throat, a factory 460 will never fit. Not even a 445 supermag would fit (I don't know why you'd try that though).

Hmm, sounds like a 455 Supermag with a 1.610 case to resemble the other SuperMags

http://singleactions.proboards.com/thread/7245

[Whiterabbit]

If the end goal is stopping a full length 460 from being chambered, 1.700 would work, wouldn't it?

I assumed if you cared about chambering a 460, you'd care about chambering a 445. Of course, you could chamber a 454, and be screwed anyways.

[C. Latch]

940 fps, and low recoil. Could probably ratchet it up to 1050-1100 fps if my wrists could take it, just not needed. 425 grains and a 6-cav mold drains a pot fast enough!

For the sake of being honest, I made up the name ridiculous, cause I couldn't remember the real bullet name (the rest are honest). It's the NEI-645-GC. Does weigh 740-ish grains.

I can't wait to see the field tests in the hunting forum. I bet a wooly mammoth hunt is pretty expensive.

[ohland]

I assumed if you cared about chambering a 460, you'd care about chambering a 445. Of course, you could chamber a 454, and be screwed anyways.

Eh, fill any case that we mentioned up with Bullseye, and it will turn the low wall into scrap.

[Whiterabbit]

in that case, I recommend just rechambering for 460 S&W. cases easy to come by, no funny business, dies work, and plenty of case capacity for Holy Black.

[BD]

As Whiterabbit mentioned the .450 bushmaster, (derived from the .450Pro), is ballistically very, very similar to the .460, but based on the .284 case, (rebated rim). The examples I've slugged went .4505 to .451.
Case diameter is correct, reamers are available, but I have no idea how one would deal with the rebated rim in your low wall.
BD

[RPRNY]

Well, I'm not overly fond of the 454 loaded to 65kpsi levels, but I do shoot paper patched 380gr soft lead slicks overa full case of black powder and a good deal of compression. Turns a hard kick into a strong but not unpleasant push.

I shoot out with 3f out of a 20" single shot Classic Carbine (Handi rifle) rifle reamed to 454 Casull. Can be done with a rented hand reamer. Gives more oomph and versatility than the 45 LC. I enjoy it.

[RPRNY]

Well, I'm not overly fond of the 454 loaded to 65kpsi levels, but I do shoot paper patched 380gr soft lead slicks overa full case of black powder and a good deal of compression. Turns a hard kick into a strong but not unpleasant push.

I shoot out with 3f out of a 20" single shot Classic Carbine (Handi rifle) rifle reamed to 454 Casull. Can be done with a rented hand reamer. Gives more oomph and versatility than the 45 LC. I enjoy it.