Fun's Over, Boys...

[Guy La Pourque]

It's time to get serious.

The Uberti 1876 Rifle is now shooting exclusively black powder and cast boolits. I have proven the concept of the BPCR cartridge; I can fabricate munitions that will go 'BANG' when the trigger's pulled. The problem I have now is accuracy.

Off the sandbags at 100 yards the rifle groups around 6". I can do that offhand with a scoped AR15. I am convinced - I know it in my soul - that this gun can do better! Oh I have a few farkles to add - a tang site and possibly a hooded globe sight up front...but I suspect my ammo. The gun is going into the smith to get some trigger work done; while it's there I will have him slug the bore and measure get the sights on order. Is there anything else I should have him look at while it's there?

As for my ammo - I bought a Lee mould that throws projectiles for the 45-75 at approx. 350 grains weight. The lead is soft - I had a pot full of pure lead and threw a spool of tin solder into it...so I should say I think the lead is soft. Supposedly the mold throws bullets of .457 diameter. The lube is the BPCR recipe with citronella and beeswax and shortening. I plunk the pills down on 73 grains FFg with a nonlubed .45 wad between the bullet and the powder. I am measuring that by weight with one of those automated RCBS green charging machines.

Can you boys recommend anything basic or obvious that I am overlooking as I struggle with this old time caliber? This gun just feels good to me and usually when the ergonomics are bang on - so is the shooting...at least for me personally.

Your two cents is, as always, sincerely appreciated!

[nhrifle]

Compression of the powder can often make a huge difference. If you have not already gotten one, either fabricate or buy a compression die. After charging your cases, give them all a bit of compression, load and shoot, and take notes of the measurements and results. You can safely compress to the point that cases begin bulging, at which point you need to back off a little. The whole key to this is consistency of everything. Be sure and listen to the sound of your round going off. Good ignition sounds more like a crack than a deep boom.

[smokeywolf]

I don't see a mention of the brand of holy black that you are using. For instance, Swiss is usually not compressed as much as Goex. You also don't say whether you're using FFg or FFFg. Also, black is usually measured by volume, not by weight. Are you using a drop tube or just funneling it in?

[fouronesix]

Yippee, after all the build up you got out and shot it!

Seriously, 6" off the bags at 100 yards is not bad at all! That's probably about all anyone was doing with them 130+ years ago. If it has the factory sights I can't help but believe the somewhat crude sights accounted for half the 6".

For sure get a reading on the groove diameter. It seems the originals were very consistent for bore specs and tended to be fairly tight at around .457 (my three confirm that along with what others report, including Mike V.), there's no telling what the modern repros are. If your's turns out to be .458, which is considered nominal modern, I don't know if the .457 bullet will obturate enough to completely fill the grooves.

All in all sounds like you are off to a good start.

[Maven]

"Supposedly the mold throws bullets of .457 diameter."

If you haven't slugged the bore yet, how do you know what diameter CB the rifle needs? You also need to determine the actual "as cast" diameter of the Lee bullets and whether you'll need to size them or not.

[Guy La Pourque]

Thanks guys!

nhrifle: I am compressing the charge already - 73 grains leaves about 1/16" to the top of the case when filled - then all that gets squished down when I seat the bullet. Do you think I should add more powder? How much, do you figure? I am not at all worried about velocities - as long as the gun shoots I am fine.

How ya doin, Wolf? Is that handsome horse in the avatar yours? I am using FFg Goex. I very seldom see Swiss around here and would dearly love to try it! I threw a couple charges and then weighed them and they come out to pretty close to 73 grains when I measured the weight of the charges. One of the cool kids in the BPCR gang does it this way so I thought I would give it a try too - just to keep everything consistent.

416 - I don't have the original sights on it. The rear buckhorns have been swapped out and I have what's called a Skinner peep sight. It is pretty darned good too. I certainly hope I can tighten things up a bit...my muzzle loaders can go head to head with this thing as it stands now. I sure hope I can do better...do you think lighter bullets might help? Gawd we had a beautiful day to shoot up here - +4 C and sunny blue skies! And I had the range to myself! I had to share it with a couple coyotes for a bit but got to shoot again once they cleared off. They were darned lucky I wasn't feeling ugly or I would have potted them with the AR! :) (Or tried to, maybe...!)

Hey Maven - thanks for the advice, I am still new at the cast boolit game but the boys are slowly bringing me up to speed. I can't believe how much fun this is.

Hope you all had a great week end and got out to shoot a bit like I did.

Cheers,

Jim

[Baron von Trollwhack]

"Supposedly the mold throws bullets of .457 diameter."

If you haven't slugged the bore yet, how do you know what diameter CB the rifle needs? You also need to determine the actual "as cast" diameter of the Lee bullets and whether you'll need to size them or not..

One of the MOST ELEMENTAL THINGS FOR THE boys to tell this fellow. Good for you.

BvT

[fouronesix]

Hard to say about a lighter bullet shooting better. The RCBS RNFP GC I shoot weighs about 325 gr. and it shoots well in my 76s. But comparing my rifles to yours would be apples to oranges.

The Skinner is a good sight. The combination of rear sight with the front sight in relation to the target for overall sight picture and the resolution of that picture is what counts. If you add a tang peep you'll gain sight radius which will help- especially if that peep is mounted up on the barrel. Also, if your front sight is a bead, that bead gets awfully large at 100 yards for precise aiming. Some like bead fronts, but I prefer a simple blade in conjunction with an aperture rear. You could go with a globe front which would provide the best possible sight picture for shooting round bulls but may not be the best all around??

[nhrifle]

Are you using a drop tube? Some folks don't use them, but once I started using one my ammo improved dramatically. Made mine from a 32" brass tube with a simple wooden frame and a couple of eye bolts. Also, in regards to compression, I originally compressed with the boolit like you are doing, but I am convinced the results were less than optimum. I made a compression plug for a decapping die and things went much better after that. I charge my cases in batches and seat a wad on top of the powder. I then measure from the case mouth to the wad on each case, then give that one what I have determined to be the best compression for that powder in my rifle. The die is set to that depth, and each case is compressed. Next comes the lube cookie followed by the over cookie wad, finally the boolit is hand seated and given a light taper crimp.

I would recommend that you experiment to see if a compression die could help. The first one I made was a wooden dowel with an empty cartridge on the end that was pressed into a die.

[rbertalotto]

#1 Do not use the bullet to compress the charge
#2 Use a drop tube
#3 Compression die
#4 You MUST slug the bore and shoot appropriate sized bullets...No option here!
#5 Swab bore between shots or use a blow tube
#6 Use SPG lube
#7 Buy this book....Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West by Mike Venturino
#8 Slug the bore..Blah Blah Blah.... :-)

[knifemaker]

I have a funny feeling that you will find your mold is dropping boolits that are to small in dia. Most, not all, repo 45 caliber rifles have a groove dia. of .458 or .459 and you will need to use a boolit that is sized at about .460 dia. for best accuracy. You will know once your bore is slug if you need a mold that drops a larger dia. boolit.

[kootne]

The best advice I ever got about reloading black powder shells was at least 25 years ago. I was doing everything "right" according to the then current gurus. My gun didn't shoot well with black powder. After I went through the whole very specific list of what I was doing Del Morris told me," If that isn't working, try sumthin diff'rent." So; try a hot primer, try a mild primer. Try compressing, try not compressing. Try no crimp, try taper crimp, try roll crimp. Try no wad, try ox yoke wads, try .030 wads, try .060 wads. Only change 1 variable at a time. Don't be afraid to do exactly opposite what every body says if what they say don't work.
Having said that, I would not compress over 1/16" using the bullet instead of a powder compression die. I would get Mike's book because there is a lot of info there even if some of it doesn't work for me in my gun. You should be able to get the rifle to shoot better than 6" and you should not have to clean or blow through the barrel every shot to get a good 5 shot string. That is a good idea for a target rifle but the '76 is a field gun and those are not field friendly techniques. My rifle (original gun with very washed out and pitted bore) puts 5 shots in 2-1/2" at 100 with no foulers, just lever and shoot. ymmv
kootne

[nhrifle]

There are quite a few members here that can guide you with specifics and will probably be the best analysts of your loads/loading techniques. Member Don McDowell is definitely worth speaking to. Also check the section on BP paper patching as there is a wealth of information in there too.

[w30wcf]

It's time to get serious.

The Uberti 1876 Rifle is now shooting exclusively black powder and cast boolits.......The problem I have now is accuracy.
Off the sandbags at 100 yards the rifle groups around 6"....... As for my ammo - I bought a Lee mould that throws projectiles for the 45-75 at approx. 350 grains weight. The lead is soft - I had a pot full of pure lead and threw a spool of tin solder into it...so I should say I think the lead is soft. Supposedly the mold throws bullets of .457 diameter. The lube is the BPCR recipe with citronella and beeswax and shortening.

I plunk the pills down on 73 grains FFg with a nonlubed .45 wad between the bullet and the powder. I am measuring that by weight with one of those automated RCBS green charging machines.

Can you boys recommend anything basic or obvious that I am overlooking as I struggle with this old time caliber? Your two cents is, as always, sincerely appreciated!

Guy,
A couple of things....
if you are compressing the powder with the soft bullet, it is very likely you are distorting it. Best to precompress the powder charge first, then seat the bullet.

The bullet you are using does not carry much lube at all for b.p. Thus a lube cookie would be of some benefit.

This bullet would be better http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=157348&CAT=4135


The type of black powder used in a repeating rifle is important to maintain accuracy for repeated shots with no bore cleaning.
Since there are no "Big Lube" bullets currently available for the .45-75 (Accurate Mold could make a 350 gr bullet with a larger lube capacity) , Swiss or Olde Enysford would be the black powders of choice since they produce the least amount of fouling.

With soft lead bullets and b.p. the bullet fit to the barrel is less important since b.p. will bump up the bullet providing good accuracy. My own testing has proven that to be true.

w30wcf

[TXGunNut]

Fun's not over, Guy. It's just getting started!

[MtGun44]

The biggest thing that grabbed me, and I am NO expert on BP, but have been reading - was that you
should be compressing the powder with a special die and compression plug, not the boolit.

Good luck!

Bill

[Lead Fred]

Or a wooden dowel, if you cheap like me.
Dont shoot holy black though the levers, only the long barreled single shots.
I use a veggie wad & grease cookie between the powder & lead. When I dont the pattern opens up.

[Guy La Pourque]

Thanks again fellas!

I am still chewing away on the things I need to do to get this gun shooting. The gunsmith is doing a trigger repair job - it seems like Bubba was the original owner of the gun and did a 'trigger job' of sorts. Needless to say, I am CHOKED. If all is well it will be a $130.00 repair! Grrrr...oh well, when you buy used guns you have to expect **** like this.

He also checked the bore...he claims slugging the bore is not the way to go, he uses these odd adjustable inserts and then uses ultra-precise calipers and micrometers to check barrel diameters. He tells me the grooves measure .45730". I assume that means I need to throw bullets that are .458 to .459? Are there any other recommendations for molds in the 300~350 grain category? I will be buying stuff upon the go-ahead from the smith...

Compression dies: I am curious, can any of you point me to a thread that shows pictures on how to make them? (Or buy - I see the plugs seem to fit into the expander die...can I use a Lee 45-70 expander die for my .45-75? or use the plug and fit it to my RCBS .45-75 die? Any clarification is appreciated! I saw the ones available at Track Of The Wolf and will probably order from them as soon as I have the blessings of the fine firearm forum folk!

I have a 6" drop tube I am using to dump the black powder into the cases - I know the guys have 3 footers and possibly more - but is that really necessary? Why?

Lube - I used the BPCR recipe and noticed that there is goop on the muzzle after 20 shots. I am not seeing any leading to speak of...can I assume all is well with my lube based on that?

Also - do you guys have any info to point me to on grease cookies? Will they even work in the bottle necked 45-75?

Finally, the smith recommends against tang sights. He says they are fine and dandy for the range but on a field gun he doesn't see the need. It looks like I will stick with the Skinner barrel mounted peep for now...



Ye gods, I shoulda bought the big Winchester in 45-70! This beast may be harder to deal with than I expected...

[fouronesix]

Lots to chew on there.

The lube on the muzzle is a good thing and is known as a "lube star" in the vernacular. Given you have no leading- your bullet size is pretty close to correct and the lube star shows you probably don't need to add a lube cookie because your bullet is carrying enough lube all the way to the muzzle. The lube cookie is most useful when shooting paper patch bullets and not swabbing between shots or when the bullet is not carrying enough lube.

I think your gunsmith used a type of gauge that has two prongs that are expanded, locked then removed and measured. The slug is just as accurate, so I don't know what his resistance is to that method??

I think you'd be much better off using a separate compression plug and die.

Use something like the Lyman M die as the expander. The Lyman M die needs to be set correctly so the .010 long (short step) just enters the mouth by about .005-.010. That way both the neck is expanded and the mouth is opened enough for starting the bullet base but not belled--- which is hard to control and can be hard to remove fully after seating. IMO a better system than a simple bell.

You can experiment with larger diameter bullets, but I don't know if you'll gain accuracy if you go too much oversized. If the gunsmith's measurements are correct, then I'd think a .458 bullet would be fine.

Also, if that Skinner peep is up on the barrel, a tang sight will give better sight alignment/accuracy potential because of the longer sight radius. I don't fully understand your gunsmith's resistance to the tang sight.

In all honestly, given your respectable groups at 100 yards with the first try, any improvement now is going to be incremental and it may be difficult to achieve really large improvements. I contend your first outing represented what the better shooters 130 years ago would have expected from a similar rifle. Having said that, no reason to quit striving for better and the full accuracy potential may be in the 2-4" @ 100 category.

[smokeywolf]

Or a wooden dowel, if you cheap like me.
Dont shoot holy black though the levers, only the long barreled single shots.
I use a veggie wad & grease cookie between the powder & lead. When I dont the pattern opens up.

Fred, never read this before. Is it because of percieved difficulties in achieving a complete and detailed cleaning?

smokeywolf

[Guy La Pourque]

I am just passing on the comments of my smith, fellas. None of this is meant to slag your rifles or disparage your opinions. Fact is, I disagree with the smith on the issue of tangs. He says you have to hold your thumb off to the side when using them or they cut the web of your hand (I dunno why he thinks this is a limitation). He also said most don't have great windage adjustment. I think I am going to disregard that one.

That is exactly what he did, 416. He then measured the guage off two high precision calipers and triple checked it with an ultra-high precision micrometer that went to 5 decimal places. (My El Cheapo digital verniers at home only goes to four, and the last digit is either a 0 or a 5. I take his point...my $35.00 calipers won't deliver the same accuracy as his $1000.00 precision micrometer. In any event, my bullets seem to be going anywhere from .4575" ~.4585". I should be good then, right?

I will look at that Lyman die too.

So what about grease cookies? Can I just pour out some BPCR lube out, let it harden and use the cartridge to cut the cookie?

With my eyes if I got 2" off the bench at 100 it would be a matter of luck...but I know I should be able to get 3~4" if the rifle is capable of it. Sorry again if I stepped on anyone's toes...my gunsmith can be an abrasive cretin with his opinions at times. I remember I took him a CZ full stock carbine years ago to do some trigger work on and the first thing out of his face was 'What kind of idiot puts a Zeiss on a *** like that?' Then he gave us all a lecture on how CZ's were made by drunken Czechs, child labour and hair lipped retards. He is actually entertaining if you can put up with his hogwash and don't take it seriously.

:)

[fouronesix]

Claiming .0000 precision or a $1000+ mic is required for this stuff is like saying, "my brick is exactly 4.0001" wide because I measured it with a such and such mic". :)

Driving a soft lead slug through a bore then measuring it with a regular .000 instrument will yield an excellent measurement within any reasonable range of deviation and to a level of accuracy that is practical for the original purpose.

Even the basic .000 dial, analog or vernier caliper or mic (as long as it's working and calibrated correctly) is capable of .0005 reading accuracy.

Yes, you can cookie cutter lube cookies by melting a 1/8" thick layer of lube in a pan, letting it cool then using the case mouth for each application.

Oh, about the tang sight cutting your hand?? Maybe the smith was thinking of a chopped off, very light Marlin Guide Gun shooting too hot 45-70s or something. Hard to imagine these big, heavy 76s shooting BP era ballistic cartridges doing that.

[Groo]

Groo here
Make sure you are using Magmum primers.
The old primers were much hotter than the ones we use now.
There was a load used for BP target [Pope I think] that used 2 grains of Bullseye and a full case of Black.
The Bullseye was a secondary primer to get all that Black going well.
Do not use, now use Federal mag primers.

[northmn]

You are getting a lot of opinions of "what worked for me" which are good for their rifle, but there have abeen a lot of contradictory recommendations for black in other sources. Primers: some like pistol primers and some magnum rifle. Some say Swiss will prefer soft primers. I tried Lee bullets in a BP SS and found them too small of diameter. BP is more forgiving than smokeless in that it will slug a bore but it is still better to use the right bullet. Mostly I found accuracy to be very related to the lube. SPG is highly rcommended but there are others. As one who has shot BP ML in competiton I do know that it can give you fits depending on the climate. What works on humid day may not do so well otherwise. The recommendations that I have seen that work are:
1. Use a drop tube
2. compression die is needed
Otherwise you need to play with the lube and primer powder type combinations.

DP

[MtGun44]

Sorry, but slugging IS the way to go. No such animal as "ultra precision calipers. . . . ." I smell
a whiff of BS in the air.

I recommend the Lee 405 hollow base boolit. This is a copy of the original 405 government design
for the .45-70 carbine that was very successful in the day, then brought back by Wolf and he had
Lee bring out the mold. This design converted a trap door of mine from a 2 foot at 100 yd gun
to a 4" at 100 yd gun, over 12 gr of Unique.

Bill

[smokeywolf]

Thanks for that post Bill (MtGun44). I was wondering if I was the only one who had had such good results with that same charge of Unique in a Trap Door (40 years ago).

smokeywolf

[HPT]

If you have not tried already - use a blow tube between shots

[winchester85]

i dont shoot black powder. i run a 305gr bullet sized 458, with original sights on the uberti '76 i get groups under 3" from the bench. maybe it was just lucky, i have done no load development for accuracy.