Squished's die buildalong: derim

[squished]

Ever since I started reading this forum I've had the crazy notion of making my own swaging dies. I say crazy because while home shop machining is something I've always wanted to learn and do, I never had a time, tools or a really good project. Well, I think the die set is the good project, so here goes.

I'm always looking for suggestions, critique and general ideas. As you'll see below I really have no idea what I'm doing. But I'm having fun.

I do have a tiny bit of some very basic experience. I've owned a few lathes over time but they were usually old or just not something that inspired me to keep learning. I did some knife making awhile ago, so I have some stuff like a belt grinder. I've slowly been acquiring tools, tooling and stock to work with as time and money permitted.

My work goes really slowly but here's my progress so far. Here's the first attempt at a derimming die.

http://imageshack.us/a/img24/4004/ku3y.jpg

Really just a proof of concept. It's a 7/32 hole drilled through steel plate. The press is a drill press. It certainly looks stupid, but it works. Still, I wanted something better.


So I bought a Chinese lathe and started learning. This is the second attempt.

http://imageshack.us/a/img196/3277/mlnw.jpg

The goal is to make a die that fits my RCBS, so it's 7/8-14. Notice the chatter I was getting cutting the threads. Anyone see why I abandonned that one? :( I probably had 10 hours into it. I broke a 1/8" bit in it that took awhile to get out. I also broke a cheap carbide threading bit when cutting the threads. I've since ground my own bits from HSS and I think they work a lot better. Having a belt grinder and making some angle jigs helps with the bits.

Here's the second attempt. This one is 2 5/8" long and is also sized to 7/32. The right hand of the die will be the top and I've got it bored out to 9/32 I believe.

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/8086/yf3b.jpg

This die was has about 4 hours in it with about 2-3 to go before heat treat. I'm starting with 15/16" O-1 and worked from there.

[customcutter]

Squished,

You know there's no turning back now??? Looks good. Remeber to slightly chamfer the feed in edge of the die. Other wise you'll be punching holes through the cases, don't ask me how I know. Also make your push pin .195". If you go much larger than that you can stretch the cases on some of the thicker 22lr cases. Turn the top of your die down to ID of the mouth of a 16oz water bottle that you can slip over the top to catch the cases. After you punch a few through the die heats up and the cases sometimes pop off and fly all over the place.:-P

[squished]

Thanks CC. Version 1 definitely popped out the bottoms of the .22LR cases. My punch was .199 so that may explain it.

Those are good suggestions. Please keep them coming.

[Prospector Howard]

Do yourself a favor and get a 22 degree reamer like a lyman VLD reamer to cut the entrance with so you have a more gradual angle for when the rim starts getting ironed out. It helps make the transition smoother instead of the 45 degrees that I've seen in alot of the drawings of the derim die. Also, the derim die doesn't have to be that long, just easier to make.

[Three44s]

I'll offer this: I would switch to a different method of pushing your spent .22 casings than using your drill press.

I like your use of a grader or loader hardened blade for your project. Good tough and hard stuff!

And as to your other die making ....... you are on the MOVE ...... good on you!!

Can you find a retired machinist to help you? Maybe advertise in Craigslist or a local advertising rag for someone local to you?

My .02 worth

Best regards

Three 44s

[squished]

Thanks. I saw this suggestion in an earlier post and thought it a good idea. I was going to try to make a reamer but this sounds simpler.

Also, I came to the same conclusion about the length of the derim length last night after some thought about CC's suggestion to make the top accept a bottle to catch the derimmed shells. I've already bored the top 7/8" of this one to 9/32 so I may need to set it aside and turn it into the core seat die. The main diameter is still 7/32" but not reamed. That should work for the core seat die, yes?



Do yourself a favor and get a 22 degree reamer like a lyman VLD reamer to cut the entrance with so you have a more gradual angle for when the rim starts getting ironed out. It helps make the transition smoother instead of the 45 degrees that I've seen in alot of the drawings of the derim die. Also, the derim die doesn't have to be that long, just easier to make.

[squished]

Thanks! The drill press was just a test. I'll be using a rock chucker. Good suggestion to get some help. I just may do that.


I'll offer this: I would switch to a different method of pushing your spent .22 casings than using your drill press.

I like your use of a grader or loader hardened blade for your project. Good tough and hard stuff!

And as to your other die making ....... you are on the MOVE ...... good on you!!

Can you find a retired machinist to help you? Maybe advertise in Craigslist or a local advertising rag for someone local to you?

My .02 worth

Best regards

Three 44s

[greenhornet-1]

I,m getting ready to try this myself. Keep us posted on your results!

[squished]

Will do. But I expect progress to be slow.


I,m getting ready to try this myself. Keep us posted on your results!

[squished]

Remember me?

It's been awhile since I first posted. I have to admit it's taking some time to get something going. My goal is to learn some machining skills while I build .224 swaging dies.

I do enjoy reading about the work of others here. Good stuff and inspirational.

I had some trouble getting threading right. My lathe kept skipping off thread. I tried a threaded bolt but didn't like how it machined versus the O-1 I was using. So I went back to that.

111527

Anyhow, here's the first almost done version of the derim die. It's not how I envisioned it but I made it from some scrap that I managed to thread to 7/8-14. Pictured with it is the punch I made and the base that snaps into the RCBS ram. on the left are cases that survived derimming, mostly. Some of those have torn at the rim. On the other side are ones that didn't survive the testing.

I still have plenty of polishing to do as well as heat treat which I'll do at home in a home made forge.

Comments on workmanship, design or whatever are welcomed. I'm still learning and have a ways to go.

[jimbull34]

Squished, Looks good, I've been making these for about a year now and selling them on ebay so though I would share my thoughts, accomplishments and failures with you. Go slow on the threading, only cut .005 at a pass and make sure you cut a relief groove at the end of your threads before you cut threads. The hole for the die should be drilled with a .199 bit first all the way thru and then use a step drill bit to cut until the opening takes the base of the 22 case into it about .040. Then run a .2235 reamer thru and then start polishing. When you are done and get a final dia of .224, then I take and polish the angle between the taper and the straight shaft out so that it is rounded. Make sense? That way you don't get a "catch" with the case when she goes thru the die. Also, use a .199 #8 drill blank for the punch, it fits the inside of the case perfect and will give you a perfect .224 jacket. Use the base holder for the punch exactly the way you have, except drill and tap a 1/4x20 hole in it to hold the punch in place. Make sure the punch has a champher ground on the top end of it so that it does not cut the base of the brass, a completely flat head on the punch will cut the brass head off one out of two times! Clean it, lube it good and run a few case thru it. If it has a "tight" almost catching feel to it, polish more of the angle out between the taper and the thru hole. Should take very very little effort to derimm the brass. Do not annell the brass first, it will only cut more heads off if you do...have fun. Oh my first die took me almost 8 hours to do, now I make the set in less then an hour!!!!! Keep it up, your bit!

[DeanWinchester]

Squished

Threading can be a pain but you need to find you an old school machinist and have him teach you thread WITHOUT disengaging the leadscrew.

[squished]

Thanks, jimbull34.

I appreciate you sharing the dimensions. As of right now, my swage hole is ~.216 which gives a .217 OD. My punch is around .192 so it appears I'll need to cut another one. I had planned to anyway.

I want to blow out my swage diameter to ~.220-.221 I think. I like your .224 but why not leave some for core seating and final diameter?

Right now my swaging is very difficult so something is amiss. I think it's the transition angle so I'm trying to get that down.

My base has a set screw hole for keeping the punch in place but I like the idea of threading one.

Thanks for the ideas! I'll likely incorporate them in newer versions.

Right now I'm learning how to polish die interiors.

[jmcburn]

How do you have the lathe setup to cut the threads? Just wondering if you are only cutting on one side of the tool or both?

[Prospector Howard]

jimbull34, the jacket comes out your derim dies at .224? How is that going to work when you need to bump up the size in each step? That's not the way I'm doing it, or anyone else I'm aware of.

[DeanWinchester]

It'd help to know what kind of lathe your using too. If it's a little bench top lathe, you need to cut on one side of the tool in a more traditional manner, using the compound slide. If you've got a lathe with some guts to it, not so much.

I had a Grizzly bench top for a time, before I burned the motor out of it. Even with at little fella, when chasing threads, I never disengaged the lead screw until I was done. Chase to the end of your thread and stop the machine while backing the tool out in one fluid motion. Run the machine in reverse to get back to the start and begin again. Always go back further than your start and let the machine move the carriage into position. This removes any backlash error. I worked in a machine shop for years and only once did I use the numbered dial for threading and that was for a double lead acme thread.

[Cane_man]

looks awesome Squish!!!

there are some really good vids on youtube to learn threading...

[squished]

Squished

Threading can be a pain but you need to find you an old school machinist and have him teach you thread WITHOUT disengaging the leadscrew.

Thanks, Dean. It took 5 months to figure out how to do that by myself so I may be better off finding help. Thanks for the tip.

[squished]

How do you have the lathe setup to cut the threads? Just wondering if you are only cutting on one side of the tool or both?

It's a 60 degree single cut bit I ground myself mounted on the QTCP. The compound is at 29.5 degrees with the bit perpendicular to the work. I believe that's only one side cutting.

[squished]

It'd help to know what kind of lathe your using too. If it's a little bench top lathe, you need to cut on one side of the tool in a more traditional manner, using the compound slide. If you've got a lathe with some guts to it, not so much.

I had a Grizzly bench top for a time, before I burned the motor out of it. Even with at little fella, when chasing threads, I never disengaged the lead screw until I was done. Chase to the end of your thread and stop the machine while backing the tool out in one fluid motion. Run the machine in reverse to get back to the start and begin again. Always go back further than your start and let the machine move the carriage into position. This removes any backlash error. I worked in a machine shop for years and only once did I use the numbered dial for threading and that was for a double lead acme thread.

This is essentially what I'm doing now. Once I started doing that versus using the dial it became a lot easier.

My lathe is a Grizzly 7x14.

[squished]

looks awesome Squish!!!

there are some really good vids on youtube to learn threading...

Thanks. YT has been helpful, as has the search function here. Kudos to everyone who has contributed through how to information.

[jimbull34]

Cane man, I have not had any problems with my jackets expanding after derimming. I set the cores in a .224 die and do the point forming in the same dia. die. My bullets come out at a perfect 224 and thats what I shoot. works for me....I'm not really sure what you were saying about stepping, not sure I understand what you are saying.

[alfloyd]

jimbull34 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?31350-jimbull34)
"I'm not really sure what you were saying about stepping"


If you read about swaging bullets from almost any swaging people, you will find that they increase the diameter of the slug in each step. The jacket starts at 0.223 inch ( or smaller) diameter, the core seat brings it to 0.2235 inch diameter and the point form die will bring it to 0.224 inch in diameter.

This makes it easier to remove the slug from each die in the order, as the slug will shrink back in diameter a small amount after the pressure is removed. Most important is that the slug be smaller than the final point form die so the small ejection pin will remove the slug and not stick into the lead core.


Hope this explains why the jacket should be smaller than the final diameter to start with.

Lafaun

[Prospector Howard]

That was actually my comment, don't blame Cane man. I'm a little surprised you could get it to work. I've never seen anyone do it that way and not bump it a little with each step. It seems like the bullet would have a tendancy to get stuck in the point die. Well, if it works for you; it works for you. Good explanation afloyd, that's what I was getting at.
Cane man, I have not had any problems with my jackets expanding after derimming. I set the cores in a .224 die and do the point forming in the same dia. die. My bullets come out at a perfect 224 and thats what I shoot. works for me....I'm not really sure what you were saying about stepping, not sure I understand what you are saying.

[squished]

Well I think the derim set is done, except for heat treating. I ended up using a tapered reamer to enlarge the bulk of the entrance of the die, leaving only about 1/8" of ~.218 diameter at the end. This gave me a .219 jacket assuming there's the .001" spring back I've read about. I wasn't real happy with .219, wanting a bit larger diameter. So I made a .220 D reamer out of some O-1 stock by turning .250 stock and using my smaller-than-micro mill to cut that down to .125" or so thickness. I used that to bore my die out to .220 and it now gives me a .221 jacket. I think that's a good start considering I'm learning as I go.

Next up for me will be the core mold. I plan on finding a old bullet mold and flipping it over to bore some .196 or .199 holes in it for core blanks.