Brass ejection and Crimp questions

[birdadly]

Hi gang. I have a brass ejection issue so I searched online and found that it happens, but nothing concrete for me to try. So as I dove into my issue I found another problem involving my crimp, I believe, so I've come here for help.

Casting/reloading for a Kimber 3" 45acp, Miha's 200gr SWC cast from COWW, sized to .452, 50/50 mix of carnuba red and BAC, seated to 1.240" (some seem to dip down to 1.237"), crimp to about .470 with a Redding taper crimp die, 5.2gr of W231, Winchester brass (already reloaded/fired once in this gun).

This brass started as range brass, then I reloaded on a single-stage press and everything was fine and dandy. So this time around 2 main things changed... 1: For some reason I decided to get a bulge buster kit and run all this brass thru it, after cleaning but before reloading. 2: I had to re-setup all the dies because I moved to a Dillon 650 press.

I setup the dies to the same specs that had been working for me on the single stage press. Another fact maybe is that it was freezing out when I tested the 100 rounds I made on the Dillon, it was no better than 0 degrees, probably less with windchill.

I don't recall what the first 1 or 2 mags did, but after that, pretty much all of them ejected like the pic below (I ran 60 of the 100), some didn't even make it out of the chamber, with the slide closed. I manually opened it and it flung out.

I pulled 3 of the leftovers I didn't shoot, and found the lead like the pic below. Does that mean I'm crimping too much? I weighed the powder and it's pretty much all there, a good 5.1gr in each. The bullet is still .452", but at the top it muffin-topped wider.

I loaded a mag just now, and manually cycled them and the slide closes and ejects the rounds just fine (7 round mag).

Could it be as simple as the weather being cold along with maybe I didn't have the gun cleaned/oiled good enough for such cold weather? Aside from asking why the lead is squished out like it is, I'm not sure what else to ask about or try myself.

Thanks so much if you took the time to read this and maybe have info for me. I'm sorry it got so long, but I tried to pre-answer some questions. -Brad

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[oldgeezershooter]

Looks like a pretty heavy crimp may be distorting the case.

[SWANEEDB]

I would ease up on the crimping and maybe seat the bullets just a tad deeper.

[ultramag]

Much easing up on the crimp and you'll get into issues with feeding I imagine if your measurements are correct. That wouldn't cause ejection issues either....other problems possibly, but not that.

If the loads worked before, and regardless of being loaded on the 650 now, are actually loaded to the same specs I'd leave the loads alone and find the real problem. The first two things that come to mind not being there are that 1) you have the gun lubed too much and/or with something to viscuous/thick to perform well at those low temperatures. 2) I see you have gloves on in the pic posted above. Just a little riding on the slide inadvertently with a gloved hand can slow it down enough to cause troubles.

I'd lose the bulge buster immediately as well myself. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't at least in part responsible for the looks of your pulled boolit, not to mention it's just completely unnecessary.

[geargnasher]

Degrease the entire gun and lube with synthetic engine oil where oil goes and use a light, full-synthetic grease (NLGI#1 or lighter) on the guide rod, frame, hood, and slide. Or degrease it and shoot it dry. Cold weather turns ordinary lubes into gummy, sticky, gooey messes. Cold weather also gums up most boolit lubes badly and residue in the chamber is more "grabby" to the brass.

Oh, and I'd recommend reducing the amount of crimp to ZERO, just iron out the bell mouth with the crimp die.

Gear

[btroj]

Ease way up on that crimp. Look at what it is doing to your bullet.

Like Gear said, either use a cold weather appropriate oil on the gun or shoot it dry in that sort of temps. Regular grease and many oils just get stiff in those sort of temps.

[Dan Cash]

Too much crimp, too much goop on gun be it grease, oil or powder fouling mixed with lubricant. Add the fouling problem to chilly weather, possibly increased poundage recoil springs and and perhaps a slightly limp wrist under marginal conditions and you get what you got. The Officer size pistols can be finicky, especially under adverse conditions.

[prs]

The very cold weather not only increases drag in the mechanics of the pistol and the lube used on the pistol; but also reduces the ignition properties of the propellent. Some more than others; 800X is vulnerable to this, Unique not so much, Red Dot and 700X quite cold tolerant. I have not experienced W231 in such cold. Also consider your charge weight. If your charge is toward the low to mid range of your published source data, then either bump it up or consider if a mag primer could safely be subbed in for such cold duty. Caveat, if you use the same cold tolerant rounds in searing August heat, the bark 'n bite will be higher.

prs

[bhn22]

First of all, I completely agree with gears assessment (don't faint on me gear!). Too much crimp is swaging your bullets undersize, that's where your leading is coming from. Your case mouth should no be buried deep in the bullet like that. I usually end up at .475 to .478. I realize that Hodgdon shows 4.4 gr as a starting load for this combination, but you are definitely having slide travel issues, which could be lube, or perhaps you simply need a slightly hotter load for the compact in the winter. Remember that your compact probably has a 20-21 lb recoil spring in it to slow the slide travel (I have one, I do understand that the slide is lighter). Commercial loading data is often developed in 5 inch fixed test barrels, so your velocities will be lower, and the powder companies rarely function test loads in an actual 1911. When they do function test, the gun usually has the sort of standard 14- 16 lb springs. Have you tried shooting ammo from this same batch indoors where it's warmer? Also without gloves, some of which can give symptoms that mimic limpwristing. As stated above, compact 1911s can be problematical.

I too use synthetic oil.

[bosterr]

I have a Kimber Super Carry Ultra 3" that I cannot make malfunction. I pretty much threw out all recommendations about OAL and the amount of taper crimp. I use a wide variation in brands of range brass, Saeco's #68 SWC and 4.9 gr. Red Dot powder. I removed the barrel and began by setting the OAL to MY gun. Then I set the amount of taper crimp to MY gun. With so much variation in brass, 75 percent will drop right into the chamber and the rest take so very, very little effort to chamber with thumb pressure. I used Win 231 for years, but wanted to get just a little more accuracy, so I tried Red Dot. Out of a very steady rest at 25 yds, the difference is very apparent. It functions the same with the original stainless mag and the 2 blued Kimber mags as well. The lube I use is Break Free w/teflon. I'd say round count so far is about 1500.

[mdi]

I agree with the previous posts; reduce that crimp! The bullet in the pic shows a clear ridge around the diameter of the bullet where the case imprinted on it. Ferget dimensions for a crimp. Just use a taper crimp die to remove any flare in the case mouth. Use the Plunk Test to insure good chambering.

I always considered a "stove pipe" jam to be from the slide not retracting fast enough to clear the case from the action, usually due to light loads. But adding cold weather to the equation, thick lube can add to slowing down a slide...

Great pics, BTW.

[geargnasher]

Interesting that Red Dot tightened groups a little vs. 231. On another thread recently I mentioned my multiple attempts to get really fine accuracy with 231 and how just about any powder close to it did better in a variety of pistols. Not to hijack but you're one of the few I've read having good but not best results from that powder.

Also, the comment about gloves mimicking a limp-wrist condition and putting a borderline condition over the edge is very observant, could be just a long string of small factors stacking up to create the extraction/ejection problems.

Gear

[gray wolf]

Your not using a recoil buffer are you ? Loose the bulge buster NOW, Reduce the crimp till you can pull a round and not see that ugly line in the front of your bullet. Also make sure your expander is working for you. Pull a bullet before crimping and after, That dis placed lead at the front has to be corrected. Clean the pistol and use the lightest cold weather tolerant Lube you can.
I use a bit off automatic transmission fluid for lube. How could the bullet still be the proper size ? that displaced lead had to go someplace. Also like has been pointed out about the glove--It can not contact the slide or it's good by slide speed hello Jam. Good advise in all the post above.

[prs]

Grey Wolf, what is your objection RE pushing brass through the sizing die, i.e. "bulge buster"? I see no need for it with brass that is not "Glocked", but am unaware of what harm it would do other than some extra working of the brass and the operator's arm.

prs

[geargnasher]

I'm a little curious, too. I don't see how base-sizing would cause a problem here.

Gear

[gray wolf]

Loose the bulge buster
I think that is all I said, I don't think I indicated that it was bad or a contributing factor relating to your problem. Just that in your case it's just not needed, BUT if you want to use it go a head. Perhaps it was the word NOW after my statement.
I do not believe I have ever seen 45 ACP brass from a glock with the bulge at the base either.

[prs]

Same page with you then. I have seen Glocked brass in 40, but not my pistol and not my loadings. Gear's mention of "rim sizing" brings-up a possible justification for bothering with the push through rig.

prs

[geargnasher]

Bulge busters are great for knocking off those pesky burrs on the rims of cases fired in someone else's pistol that has a razor-sharp ejector.

Gear

[birdadly]

Thanks for all the conversation! I went out to shoot some more today before writing again, hoping I'd have good news, but nope. Weather mimicked last weekends, about 8 degrees, maybe -10 windchill. The gun/ammo was out in the cold for maybe 15 minutes before I shot, and from shot 1, they did the same thing.

I cleaned the gun first, wasn't very dirty. I use Hoppes 9, then dry cloths until it was dry. I didn't oil it. All I have on hand is Rem Oil (spray can) or Outers Gun oil (liquid bottle). I'll look back at your advice to find something that's made for cold temps.

I like the idea of trying these at an indoor range. I don't like the $22 I'll have to pay to do so, but it's definitely a good test. I also should have shot some factory rounds today to see if they worked, but didn't think of it.

The gloves are new, but today I wore them and kept in mind keeping a firm grip and making sure they weren't touching the slide. I believe these 2 things to not be the cause.

Someone mentioned leading... which I never mentioned nor do I have an issue with. The threads on coating bullets has intrigued me, so I tried a small batch and loaded them to try today as well (pic below). I also eased off the crimp a touch, to .472". These didn't eject either but I do believe my gun is cleaner. I pulled a bullet and it still had a small muffin top but they still slide in/out of my barrel perfectly. This week I'll slowly ease off the crimp until they no longer pass the drop test. I've read from a few old-timers saying they like their crimp at .470" so I went there... does this mean thier bullets are being squished like mine? Or not necessarily?

Someone also asked how the pulled bullet can still be .452 after it's been squeezed into having a muffin top. I don't know, but I measured one again (pic below) and it sure enough is. I dunno.

I should try these rounds indoors, with and w/out gloves.
I should try a new gun oil made for cold weather and try again outdoors.
I should try easing up on the crimp.

Thanks everyone. Someone mentioned hijacking the thread with a question/comment... please feel free! -Brad

PS: am I even measuring the crimp in the right spot? (per pic)

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[birdadly]

Oh yeah! I bought the bulge buster kit because I am preparing to cast/reload for a new 40S&W M&P I acquired earlier this year and I plan to use range brass. While I was at it, I purchased the 45 lee die and figured I'd use it as well.

And now that I have already said I used it on these, I know that I was wrong! This was my last batch of "new" range brass, that I didn't use the buster kit on. So at least for this issue, the buster kit isn't the problem. -Brad

PSSSSS: I should have mentioned by now, that using my single-stage press over the past 2 years, I did successfully cast/reload about 1,250 rounds of these exact same bullets. I started by seating/crimping in one step and it worked for about 600 rounds. Then all a sudden they weren't passing the drop test and my slide wasn't fully closing! That's when I bought the Redding crimp die and that seemed to fix it up to where I'm at now. But now I had to set up the dies again on the new press. (and I don't do this a lot, so I'm still a novice but try to do things the right way!)

[ultramag]

I still don't think they're really over crimped and your measurements seem to confirm that. It looks more to me like it's pushing the lead up at the end of the press stroke as the bullet is still being seated deeper and the crimp is closing down. I know I had that trouble when I first started loading the Lee TL452-230-TC. I went to seating and crimping in two different steps and it went away. Still don't see how that would hinder ejection even if they are. If this is what is occurring it can definitely give you a muffin top without sizing the bullet diameter down. I know, I've had it happen.

As for your ejection issues you may just simply not enough oomph in that load to cycle the slide in those cold temperatures.

[wv109323]

An extractor without the proper tension can cause the problem you are having. The extractor will not hold the case so it can be forced into the ejector. The extractor "turns loose" and the case is not ejected. The slide then comes forward and traps the brass.
To test tension: Take the slide off the frame ,remove barrel, Take a loaded round and slide the rim of the case up the breechface and under the extractor. Hold the slide level(horizontal). The loaded round should not fall out.
The crimp has nothing to do with your problem though it might not be ideal for accuracy. Did you have any cases that made it further out of the gun. Was some of the brass turned side ways and trapped by the slide?
5.2 Grains of WW231 should be enough to work the slide. In a 5" gun that would be around 825+ FPS. Target loads use around 4.4 to 4.6 gns. of WW231 however those guns have much lighter recoil springs.
Make you some dummy rounds (without primers and powder) and see if manually working the slide cause the same problem.