Cull Deer

[TXGunNut]

Subject came up on an excellent thread, thought it needed discussing but didn't want to further hijack the OP's thread.
Culling is controversial but is part of any good management plan in an area where deer are plentiful and trophies are desired. I'll tell you how the guys on my brother's lease do it but it's a plan that will work on other hunting areas as well. Each member is allowed one "trophy" but other kills must be culls or does. Guests are allowed culls or does. Their plan is the result of research by TPWD and personal observation and my own observation supports it as well. First deer I killed there was an 2.5 yr old spike, he had 6-7" spikes and would likely never have a rack the members would consider a trophy. Second deer was another good example, she was a lone doe. A doe alone this time of year in that part of the country is most likely a dry doe and will contribute little to the herd. I only shoot dry does, I won't shoot a doe accompanied by a yearling. Another good example of a cull deer is one that I hesitated to shoot but was told afterwards would have been a good cull. He was a 3.5 yr old 8pt, tall heavy antlers and in excellent shape with a small harem of does. Problem is his rack was narrow, trophy hunters prefer a wide rack. Another good example was a 3.5-4.5 yr old buck that had a narrow heavy rack, a normal 3 pt antler on one side and a spike with a tiny brow tine on the other side. He was a big guy and bullied lesser bucks who showed an interest in his little harem. I spent some time in a stand trying to cull him, he's unlikely to pass on genes necessary for a trophy buck. We saw lots of nice young 8pt bucks last year, many have grown into mature 8-10pt trophy bucks because we held fire last year. It's not unusual to see a 1.5 yr old buck sporting a spindly 6pt rack on this lease, that deer is 2 years away from being a nice trophy.
I realize most hunting areas won't afford the luxury of managing a deer herd for trophies and any legal deer is a good deer to kill. Every hunting area is a different situation but genetics is proven science, superior bucks pass on superior genes. In the interests of full disclosure I'm not a trophy hunter but I'll help cull deer for the priviledge of hunting as a guest.

[dk17hmr]

I'm a meat hunter, when I draw my bow back or take the safety off my rifle I see steaks on the grill and cans of meat on shelf not heads on the wall. When I draw a good tag I take my time and look for a good animal but in general if its legal and looks tasty I'm going to try and kill it.

That said, if I had property and the animals I would manage the herd exactly like you described.

[TXGunNut]

I'm a meat hunter too, Doug. I have all the heads I want on the wall now, prefer an evil-looking hog over a deer mount anyway. Culling gives me a chance to hunt, put meat in the freezer and see some truly remarkable critters.

[Wolfer]

I'm a meat hunter also. Although I never hunt big bucks I will take one if chance allows. Even though where I usually hunt is public ground it's so brushy not many people hunt it.

So for me I'm looking for a meat deer or something I can hang on the wall. If a young six pointer with a wide rack comes by I usually let him walk. It's the same with spikes though. Im only allowed one buck and I try to save it for something special until late in the season. Then it's no holds barred.

If I'm seeing deer I usually let does with a yearling pass. She's already ran her button buck off. The yearling with her is the doe of the pair. This older doe is a proven performer. She will have twins in the spring and most likely raise them. If a single doe with a long snout comes by then her young has been killed by hunters or something else or she never had any. Regardless she better not give me a shot at her.

If I've hunted a few days and not seen any deer then I shoot the first thing that walks by.
If I had a big piece of land I'd manage the herd exactly as you describe. Woody

[CastingFool]

I only shoot trophy bucks. Culls is what everyone else shoots. lol

[300savage]

i think the idea of shooting does is a good one, however i dont think its possible for a hunter in the wild to determine a barren doe from a fertile one.
unless of course there is a fawn following.
nor do i think it matters once the fawn is old enough to make it on its own.

[Grendel99]

i think the idea of shooting does is a good one, however i dont think its possible for a hunter in the wild to determine a barren doe from a fertile one.


I agree, I don't think you can really tell a dry doe from a fertile one. There are so many variables that just seeing a mature doe by herself doesn't automatically mean it's 'dry' and it must be shot. She could have had her fawns picked off early by predators, or they died by car, disease, or still born, or it's pregnant etc.

I do agree with shooting cull bucks, but my criteria is different. I don't care if the deer is wide or narrow, and won't shoot a buck as a cull just because I don't think his rack is wide enough. I don't want all my bucks to look exactly the same. I like the differences and the character of the many varied racks. A lot just depends on where you are, a few places in south Texas are extremely strict on what they shoot or not. Their cull bucks down there would make me drool. I have a few 'cull' bucks on my trail camera and one in particular I really want to shoot. I want to shoot him because he is a mature, big bodied buck, not because I'm worried about his genes so much. I call him 'crab claw' because his last two points on his main beams are very close together and almost horizontal. He only has a fork on one side and three points on the other and is at least 5 years old. I have him on camera from the last three deer seasons.

There are tons of variables that go into what makes a cull buck. Since deer drop their racks every year, it's sometimes hard to keep track of them and they can change, sometimes substantially between seasons. What you thought was a cull one year, may turn into a nice buck the next. Other times, if one side of a rack doesn't develop, that can sometimes be attributed to an injury to its body or the rack in velvet and by next year, he could look fine. While I do agree with culling for the most part, I don't really know how much of a difference it really makes. Think about it, does are responsible for the other half of the genes. You will never know what her genes carry and how they will contribute to her male fawns.

[Sweetpea]

The nearest area to me that has a doe tag has the hunt pretty early, starts 1st of August.

Even though it takes a couple of years to draw a tag, you can usually find a lone doe.

Pulling the trigger on a mama means you just killed two deer, but are only taking one home.

Later hunts would be a different story.

Brandon

[jaysouth]

You call them culls, I call them meat in the freezer. I never did learn how to cook horns.

[Hamish]

I think the biggest service we can do for the resource is once and for all quash the old wives tale that a buck producing a spike rack initially is any kind of predictor of what kind of rack will come later.

Quantity, quality, QDM, or meat harvest, we are all hunters utilizing a resource, and that should be remembered when you feel your BP up.

[white eagle]

can never think for another hunter so when I see a buck and let him pass I may have given him up to the next hunter that see's him
I believe in QDM however not all do and that is the way it is in the woods where I hunt

[Faret]

Very same practice I live by and try to pass on it has worked well for us in the past.

[TXGunNut]

A lot just depends on where you are, a few places in south Texas are extremely strict on what they shoot or not. Their cull bucks down there would make me drool. -Grendel99

This lease is in Bee County, you drive past three high-fence ranches on a private road to get to it. A cull on this lease can indeed be a very nice deer by my standards. This is a result of over a dozen years of management by a tight-knit group of dedicated trophy hunters. It's not unusual to see over a dozen deer in a few hours in a stand, quite often the deer know or suspect you're there. If you're hunting an area where you might not see a legal deer all day then the first legal deer is the one to shoot. I've hunted WMA's where this was the practice, deer there are very skittish after the first week or two.
I've hunted hogs on the Nail Ranch in Albany, TX. You should see their idea of a "cull" or "last day" buck.Pretty awesome, IMHO.

[TXGunNut]

A lot just depends on where you are, a few places in south Texas are extremely strict on what they shoot or not. Their cull bucks down there would make me drool. -Grendel99

This lease is in Bee County, you drive past three high-fence ranches on a private road to get to it. A cull on this lease can indeed be a very nice deer by my standards. This is a result of over a dozen years of management by a tight-knit group of dedicated trophy hunters. It's not unusual to see over a dozen deer in a few hours in a stand, quite often the deer know or suspect you're there. If you're hunting an area where you might not see a legal deer all day then the first legal deer is the one to shoot. I've hunted WMA's where this was the practice, deer there are very skittish after the first week or two.
I've hunted hogs on the Nail Ranch in Albany, TX. You should see their idea of a "cull" or "last day" buck.Pretty awesome, IMHO.

[44man]

We have too many deer and they have been getting smaller, nothing to see a fawn in Nov just out of spots for the winter coat. All fawns are weaned anyway and I have never, ever shot a large or medium doe without milk. I don't believe there is such a thing as a "dry" doe even if alone.
Mature does are bred early and drop fawns earlier and almost always have twins. Kill a big mature doe and you eliminate three next year. Their young will have one fawn next year. I feel justified in shooting the younger one. But that does not reduce the herd.
This is farm country with housing developments and those stupid home owners associations with strict rules and I have driven into a few to see the roads full of deer eating all the shrubs and plants around the houses when snow is here. Even in our development, just the next road, nobody over there will allow hunting or shooting and it is nothing to see over 50 deer. Sort of a preserve that feeds our lands. I can hunt all the properties on my road.
I know every inch and know where some decent bucks are but leave them alone, none would be a trophy. There is no way turn this area into big buck range anyway. Nothing to see a young buck with little antlers chasing a doe.
I hate the taste of big old bucks, shot many in Ohio and just gave that up, I will not kill what I can't eat. Those times I wanted a butter knife size chainsaw are long gone. Needed nose plugs to even stick the stuff in your mouth.
Want a trophy? Pay to hunt.

[300 TC]

Cull deer or meat deer it doesn't matter. Some that need to be harvested are not legal. That is just a sad fact. I too have enough horns, but "cull" buicks outnumber the does and not much way to improve the herd. BTW these are free ranging deer.

[300 TC]

Gee I wouldn't cull a buick. Sorry meant buck.

[richhodg66]

I eat every one I kill or give them to someome who does. I'll pull the trigger on a big buck, but that's not what I'm out there for. I hunt only public land here and we have good deer.

This will probably offend, but I see hunting in a high fence environment like that, usually over feeders and from box blinds that are better structures than the houses many people world wide live in to be pretty gross. Sounds like bass fishing in a small pond where the only fish in it are stocked 8 pounders or bigger. A guy that spends thousands of dollars to go "hunt" a trophy buck on such a place probably doesn't have the woods skills and abilities to even kill a doe on my place. Might as well just buy the shoulder mount and be done with it already. This is why I've given up watching hunting shows on TV and reading articles in most hunting publications. Sorry if this sounds harshly judgemental, but it's the way I feel.

[300savage]

wait..waaiitt... yep its official this thread has now been hijacked ...

i think the subject of hunting over bait from a blind has been covered before but you could always do as search if there are still unresolved issues and resentments comIng up for you.
maybe it would help to talk to someone about it ?

now i am hoping someone will prove me wrong about barren does so i can learn something.

[C. Latch]

The breadth of opinions in threads like this demonstrate why I lost interest in a career as a biologist. Managing deer is dirt-simple. Managing deer hunters is an exercise in frustration and not worth the typical biologist pay.

That's all I'll say about deer management. Didn't join here to argue. ;)

[Mod42]

Best b
The breadth of opinions in threads like this demonstrate why I lost interest in a career as a biologist. Managing deer is dirt-simple. Managing deer hunters is an exercise in frustration and not worth the typical biologist pay.

That's all I'll say about deer management. Didn't join here to argue. ;)

Best comment yet!!

The quest for "trophy" animals will be the death of hunting. It just turns the sport into a business to make money, and with money comes the greed and cheating.

Sorry, that's just the way i feel about "trophy" hunting.

[Wolfer]

I'll throw my two cents in although it may be overpriced.

Barren does. I've killed three in my life. Many years and miles apart. All were big, although I could turn them around I couldn't drag them. They were mud fat, jiggle when they walk fat. Their udders looked just like a yearling does. I didn't know any of this before the shot.

Trophy bucks
While I have a few good bucks on the wall none are what I consider trophy. I was deer hunting when they came by.
For me a trophy would be a deer I scouted, hunted and connected on a particular deer.

Last year I had a thread about a close call for a young buck. A basket racked six point. If I can stalk to 25 yds and shoot him with my 45 then that makes him a trophy for me. I made it inside 30 yds before the wind changed. He had been in range from the start. I didn't want this buck per say and was glad he got away. It was a good hunt!
But, to each his own. Woody

[TXGunNut]

Commercial trophy hunting has in some areas developed into something I don't agree with. That's a different subject altogether. The guys on this lease have done it the right way, IMHO. Only a few trophy animals are harvested each year and the mature bucks are pretty elusive but the game cameras prove they're there. They've managed a herd of deer to produce what they want and the herd has benefitted as well. It's not much different from managing a herd of domestic animals in some ways, hardest part is coming up with a plan and keeping all the hunters on the same page to achieve that goal. Without hunting and other measures the deer on this lease would overpopulate the area and be suffering within a few years. This is not a high-fence operation like those nearby.
And no, I don't want this to turn into a silly debate about woods or hunting skills. Yes, it's difficult to identify a dry doe on the hoof and it's not 100% accurate but we try. I'd like to avoid a discussion of the survivability of orphaned yearlings as well, that's been covered and there's no sense in knocking that scab off again. I suspected I'd need FR clothing when I started this thread but it's a discussion that could benefit some members that want to manage a herd to produce a better hunting experience. Thanks to those who have kept it civil.
I think I need to head for the range and check on a couple of my management tools, going to use one of them to fill my freezer in a few weeks if all goes right.

[Iowa Fox]

We have too many deer and they have been getting smaller, nothing to see a fawn in Nov just out of spots for the winter coat. All fawns are weaned anyway and I have never, ever shot a large or medium doe without milk. I don't believe there is such a thing as a "dry" doe even if alone.
Mature does are bred early and drop fawns earlier and almost always have twins. Kill a big mature doe and you eliminate three next year. Their young will have one fawn next year. I feel justified in shooting the younger one. But that does not reduce the herd.
This is farm country with housing developments and those stupid home owners associations with strict rules and I have driven into a few to see the roads full of deer eating all the shrubs and plants around the houses when snow is here. Even in our development, just the next road, nobody over there will allow hunting or shooting and it is nothing to see over 50 deer. Sort of a preserve that feeds our lands. I can hunt all the properties on my road.
I know every inch and know where some decent bucks are but leave them alone, none would be a trophy. There is no way turn this area into big buck range anyway. Nothing to see a young buck with little antlers chasing a doe.
I hate the taste of big old bucks, shot many in Ohio and just gave that up, I will not kill what I can't eat. Those times I wanted a butter knife size chainsaw are long gone. Needed nose plugs to even stick the stuff in your mouth.
Want a trophy? Pay to hunt.

You just described our place to a T. Its nothing to see 100-200 deer within 3/4 of a mile radius around here. I have all the house foundation evergreen bushes covered or they would totally eat them off. Late last summer they got on our front porch and ate all my wifes flowers. Not much shooting around us this year so next year is going to be worse.

[NVScouter]

I've seen 4-5 year old massive spikes and forkies (thats a 6 point for white tail guys :D...) Age will make deer regress, bad diet will make them look like crud too. After Nevada's big forest fires a few years ago many bucks didnt have the forage and didnt get the racks. Some bucks just will never get them.

Does are does and as long as the fawn isnt tiny they will be fine.

Judge a cull buck by body size, head shape, etc. This isnt easy unless you see them in a herd to compare or you have well trained eyes. I just cant stand people shooting any critter with horns...

[horsesoldier]

This was the first year I have been able to pass up bucks looking for something bigger. I passed up 23 bucks before I filled both of my tags.All we eat is venison, and both of the bucks I shot (which I consider trophy quality) are the best eating deer I have ever had. I was hunting mostly private land which was a luxury I have never had before.For many years I have filled non-resident Idaho deer tags with doe's and felt just fine about it.Do I feel bad about targeting older, mature deer instead of shooting the first legal buck that walked out in front of me? No. I understand hunting means different things to different people which is why I dont attack people that have food plots and hunting blinds.Its all fun and we usually all do it for the same reasons.

[RMc]

So much for wildlife as a publicly owned resource.

Indeed, in today's world of private - profit based hunting, it appears the use of public moneys to assist wildlife management on private lands is no different than county crews paving private driveways.

Could this be the new attitude on public game management?

http://wcmcoop.com/2012/05/21/walker-and-deer-a-rebuttal/

http://wiwildlifeethic.org/2012/05/30/scott-walkers-deer-czar-calls-public-lands-socialism-and-national-parks-wildlife-ghettos/

http://savewideerhunting.info/

The tension between competing financial interests vs publicly owned game animals is a complex and divisive issue as this research indicates:

http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1247&context=delpf

[44man]

Let me hijack a little more. I hunted PA for years. I would shoot a doe and it was real good eating. Next season, shoot another (all bow hunting) same size, same place and I could not stomach the wild taste. Never had that with Ohio, MI or WV deer, I have taken 3 doe over 200# without that nasty taste.
Then PA deer were usually infested with leg worms and were the devil to clean. Gave up on one shoulder and tossed it.
I don't watch the junk on TV either. Some jerk will shoot a big buck just before dark and leave it to find the next day. Warm weather bloat job, I know the head only was taken, meat tossed. Most of the deer are not gutted either. Most hunt high fence, food plot and might hunt free to advertise the outfitter.
Canned hunts like this one, half tame, farm raised animals. Put the camera man in position, walk up to the animals and shoot. Tell the world you are the great hunter! 90791

[white eagle]

did he get the buff
now that there is hunting!
looks like the guy in the middle said something about high fence hunting to the guy with the rifle

[taco650]

My $.02, for what it's worth.

I've done all my hunting in OR or WA but mostly in Central OR. In OR, doe tags are VERY HARD to get. I had does eating my shrubs year round but all I could do is yell at them or send the dog out because state regulations prohibited killing them. My area also had a 2 point minimum for bucks. There's also tens of thousands of acres of public land in Central OR to hunt too. Now that I live in GA the rules are all different. Very little public land to hunt and the limits in my county are 6 does and 2 bucks. Do I see more deer in GA than OR? Nope. Jeff Foxworthy owns a huge spread about 30 miles south of me and has his placed managed by a staff and they do the same as what TXGunNut talks about. I guess if you have the privilege to choose what kind of animal you can shoot, then take it. At this point in my life I'd take what I could get and be satisfied. Also, the pic 44man posted above is not hunting to me but rather killing a buffalo for the fridge or the hat rack.

[TheGrimReaper]

Got to here. Deer are thick, dangerous thick. Cause lots of wrecks on the roads. I hunt for meat not horns.

[44man]

Nothing I ever did was better then tracking deer in snow, I love snow. Raging blizzards in Ohio and the sheer beauty of the woods along with all the snow down my neck.
Long ago when I drove from Ohio to PA, we could not get a doe tag. Found hunting clubs in PA would buy all the tags and tear them up. Only archery made them legal, then flint lock season.
Long ago if you seen a deer in Ohio you called the newspaper and told them but I shot a deer every season, now the herd is wonderful, thanks to the wildlife people there. Largest buck I ever seen was 18 points and would dress 420# easy. Had to move with my job and live where we have many deer.
Been there, done that and have way over 500 deer kills. I am at six this season with revolvers but one was with a long bow and wood arrow, never to be repeated because I suck with the thing.
I feel bad for all of you that never see a deer or can't get tags. It is poor management and politics.
It is buying land for commercial hunting or clubs. It is so hard for many of you.
I had farms all over Ohio to hunt free, all the way from Cleveland to the river, super great people. Now I can hunt all of my neighbors properties without asking, just leave the house and go. I never have to ask and can bring friends with me.
I took Whitworth hunting and he made some good kills until JWP turned him against me. Sad to lose a friend. I think of Marko all the time but nothing I can do.

[RMc]

Point: We are slowly returning to the European model where only the wealthy/landed gentry have access to prime hunting.

[TXGunNut]

Point: We are slowly returning to the European model where only the wealthy/landed gentry have access to prime hunting.

There's a lot of truth to that, my friend. I hunt in TX where we have public hunting but the success results vary from dismal to mediocre. Learned quite a bit about management from the biologists at the hunt sites and helped out with the management effort from time to time.
It's sad that most of the best deer in TX are on private land but they seem to be better managed there. As big as TX is the areas that support deer well are somewhat limited and very little time & effort is put into management and habitat. Best chances of bringing home the venison in TX involve a well-managed herd, and that doesn't come cheap.

[44man]

Yeah, wild animals belong to all of us and we pay millions every year in taxes from our purchases of guns and ammo. Where is the money wasted? With what we spend, why are public areas so poor? Eastern states have more public hunting areas then anywhere. Seems as if fenced areas and hunt clubs claim the animals as theirs only. Our animals are now a business. Free range is a thing of the past so maybe the rich should get smart and refuse to pay to hunt, shut them down and break down fences.
Nothing wrong with feed plots to help animals but they don't own the animals---WE DO. With our money, the public areas should have good feed so all are not drawn to private pay to play.
Baiting is not legal every state but hunting over plots is legal.
PA was stupid, can't shoot over salt or bait but you can hunt corn fields, apple trees, etc. Some times the apple trees I hunted had no apples so I went to another tree and brought apples to my apple tree, not a damned thing they could do about it.
You could hunt trails leading to the salt the state put out but not over the salt---WOW, big difference.
Same as goose hunting corn fields--Legal, but don't put out corn or you pay for it. What is the difference leaving corn in fields or putting some out? You know hunt clubs with corn fields leave tons of corn.
Long ago when duck hunting the bay in Ohio, we were on the bay a distance from a hunting club that planted stuff for ducks. We did good and the club was angry over us calling ducks to us so they sent out a speed boat to run back and forth. The jerk hit a reef, blew out the bottom of the boat and sank.
The rich will never be in my book of sportsman or hunters. When I see pictures of game shot I get sick as they brag, your little free range doe means more to me.
Pay $20,000 for an outfitter to lead you to an animal while he carries your sticks---STICKS, why not a bench rest?
There was a truck driver in Ohio that seen a huge buck all the time so he got permission to hunt. He hunted hard, took time from work and got fired over it but he got the buck by hard work. He gets credit from me, he really hunted. Only needed a license and permission, not a goof over a trophy that was paid for.

[drinks]

I have seen some papers that noted problems with the testicles on deer with uneven antler development.
Some cases were physical damage and some were likely insect damage, but the paper's authors felt antler development was influenced by the size and condition of them.
I cannot remember where I read the papers, but I believe it was in a TPW publication.

[NVScouter]

Eastern states have more public hunting areas then anywhere. .

Uhhhh.........What?

Animals are and have always been big business. Land and people are the issues. When I was stationed in TX even with the hog problems many ranchers had to know you to let you hunt if at all. Why? Stupid city hunters shooting cows/dogs/traughs, etc.

They will lose $25K a year in crop over letting people hunt due to bad past experiences.

[TXGunNut]

44man, IIRC the hunting of migratory birds over bait is a federal hunting reg. Grain spilled during normal agricultural practices is a different matter. Food plots are habitat improvement.
I think public land can be managed to produce quality deer and healthy herds. I have seen it work on some TPWD Wildlife Management Areas. They draw up a plan each year and carefully control the animals harvested.
I don't have a big problem with the high-fence operations. They improve the habitat, build nice facilities, even buy breeding stock to improve the genes. Sometimes they even bring in exotics. Their clients generally aren't what we'd call hunters; could be amusing to see some of them try to pitch a tent, cook a full meal over an open fire or even field dress a deer. Their clients do, however, spend tons of money on gear, guns & ammo and those funds benefit state management efforts. The high-fence operations also employ lots of folks and pay taxes in sparsely populated areas. I'd rather have the high-rollers behind fences than buying up deer leases for outrageous prices and keeping the rest of us from hunting.

[44man]

Each state is different. Seen many food plots on public game lands in PA---JUST GRASS. No forbs or anything else. Deer were eating hemlock.
Ohio had corn fields and all kinds of plants, corn never harvested but replanted in the spring.
Game departments are under political control and money comes first. They actually help high fence clubs in some states. Then the problem of needing to cross private land to get to public areas isolated and out of reach.
I used to hunt coal fields in Ohio, rough country with high walls and gouged land but full of deer. Big coal came in and dug deeper to get all the coal and then smoothed it all back to beautiful rolling hills and planted it---THEN SOLD IT TO HUNT CLUBS!
I hunted Salt Fork a lot but they opened land for hunting in different zones each year, state park working with the game department to keep the herd in check. Super deer but they soon learned where hunters were not! I seen herds of big bucks going into hunting zones at dark, then return before daylight.
There are many public areas in Ohio and WV, even PA has a lot all over the state. But best hunting was always private property and easy to get permission, just ask and be nice, leave nothing but footprints and respect fences. I made so many great farmer friends it is hard to imagine. We hunted an orchard with unlimited deer tags and one night a semi pulled in to load apple crates. The owner came to our camper and needed help, he had no workers so we all went and got on fork lifts to load the truck. I will never forget his smiles and he will never forget us. We had all the apples and cider we could handle.

[white eagle]

Thats what hunting is all about there Jim, landowner/hunter respect and hopefully friendship.I hunted a farm the same way made a contact and gained access and eventually became friends.Hunted there for many years.He died two years ago and his son took over the farm haven't been back since.
Sure you always have people to claim to be hunters that are not those are the people that hunt behind fences and pay exorbitant amounts of money to pose with a game animal some kill livestock and target shoot with farm implements they do nothing but give the real hunter a bad name.I have been on a farm where the farmer would not let me on because some city slicker came in and killed ol bessy and he just closed it down.
sorry for the rant

[44man]

Ethics first. A deer is nothing at all and to do wrong just to get one is such a bad rep to real hunters.
Long ago I was going to the upper part of MI, stopped in a store and there was a picture on the wall of goats on the fenders of a car. Foreign guys, never seen a real deer.
Never, ever, ever harm the landowner and treat him with love and respect.
One time we went pheasant hunting in PA. Found a farm with signs that allowed hunting with state cooperation. Stopped to ask, found we did not have to but the people were so glad we did, they invited us in for coffee and home made donuts. My goodness, such wonderful people we met.
Farmers are hard working wonderful people and I have such great memories and so many friends.

[44man]

Here, archery is from Sept 28 to Dec 31. Bow hunt any day even gun seasons.

[Hardcast416taylor]

A bit of knowledge that was bestowed on me the first year I was allowed to hunt deer over a half century back. "Horns make lousy chili"!Robert

[TXGunNut]

A bit of knowledge that was bestowed on me the first year I was allowed to hunt deer over a half century back. "Horns make lousy chili"!Robert

I agree, but when the horn hunters pay most the bills and do most of the work I don't mind culling a few deer for them. It's an opportunity to hunt basically free, all I have to do is make herd management decisions. Sometimes I get to cook! One paid member shot an older 15" cull deer a few days ago, looked like a nice mature 10 pt to me. I'd rather eat a spike or a doe but old deer make good sausage.

[10x]

Cull deer or meat deer it doesn't matter. Some that need to be harvested are not legal. That is just a sad fact. I too have enough horns, but "cull" buicks outnumber the does and not much way to improve the herd. BTW these are free ranging deer.

Point, game, set, and match. It is matter of genetics. If you take out the very big spike bucks and leave the big ones to breed, you will have a gene pool that generally gives big bucks. If you take out the bucks with nice antlers and leave the spikes, guess which bucks keep their genes in the gene pool.

As for you guys that like to speculate about managing the herd. I have property with deer, moose, and wolves. The wolves, poachers, wildlife regulations, and deep snow seem to screw up any management plans I have.

[TXGunNut]

Situation here is pretty easy to control, small group of like-minded hunters and no natural predators other than coyotes. Poachers not an issue either, at least not at this time.
I'd been convinced this past weekend to go ahead and take a narrow mature buck, have been seeing several smallish rack mature 8 pt bucks on the game cams. I saw one Sat AM but passed, just couldn't tell in the early light just how mature he was. My brother told me I should have shot it after hearing the description. Seems the cull bar keeps getting raised higher each time I see a nice buck.
Almost shot a pretty nice buck Saturday evening but two does saved his life, lol. His antlers were not as high & narrow like some others they wanted culled but they weren't much if any past his ears but I still couldn't talk myself into the shot. Never got the shot I wanted and then the does showed up. Both were nice, fat 1 1/2 yr old does and they were headed up the sendero at a brisk walk. When the closest one got inside of 45 yds she started getting a little spooky so I decided to put her down or pass up on shooting any of them.
This lease needs to take more does so I felt that was a better management decision anyway. She'll be better on the table than that buck anyway.