Black Powder Info

[Ninety Caliber]

I have an older firearm that I would like to load at black powder pressures using smokeless . Where can I find the bp pressure info for various calibers?

[2AMMD]

Buy some reloading manuals or search reloading information from the powder manufacturers. Sorry it costs some money, but - It's the only "really" safe information you can get. The members here are great and more than helpful, but each gun likes one load or another, so you might as well start with the powder manufacturers starting loads and work up to the most accurate load for YOUR gun with that powder and boolit. AMMOGUIDE.COM has a lot of information available for all calibers, and you can access some of it free. I opted to pay for a 1 year membership ($18.00 i think) and have easily gotten more than that value in information. Watch the load data though for your caliber, many of the loads listed from members are "MAX LOAD" I would start well below and work up. Others may be more help.
2AMMD

[Ninety Caliber]

Buy some reloading manuals or search reloading information from the powder manufacturers. Sorry it costs some money, but - It's the only "really" safe information you can get. The members here are great and more than helpful, but each gun likes one load or another, so you might as well start with the powder manufacturers starting loads and work up to the most accurate load for YOUR gun with that powder and boolit. AMMOGUIDE.COM has a lot of information available for all calibers, and you can access some of it free. I opted to pay for a 1 year membership ($18.00 i think) and have easily gotten more than that value in information. Watch the load data though for your caliber, many of the loads listed from members are "MAX LOAD" I would start well below and work up. Others may be more help.
2AMMD

2AMMD,

Guess I wasn't clear. I have loading manuals....what I NEED is the Black Powder pressure info so I can match my loads pressure wise in my antique firearm! :)

[fishhawk]

If you value your body parts it's not advisable to use any smokeless powder in place of BP in a BP gun.

[Ninety Caliber]

Shouldn't be a problem if you can match the pressure, should it? Or is there something else I'm missing?

[fishhawk]

the pressure curve of BP and smokeless is way different

[Wayne Smith]

It is the pressure curve that makes a difference. The more nitro in the mix the more likely you will have two separate pressure curves in smokeless powder. The pressure curve also extends further down the barrel in many of the smokeless powders. You should only use BP in an older gun for safety reasons.

[Ninety Caliber]

the pressure curve of BP and smokeless is way different

Please elaborate. What exactly do you mean by "pressure curve"? If a given bp load is 20,000 cup chamber pressure as an example, then a smokeless load at that same pressure should me fine shouldn't it?

[John Boy]

Ninety Caliber, since you have been completely non informative twice about the caliber of your antique and the bullet weight you intend to use, here's some reference sources. Go at it yourself! ...
* http://www.goexpowder.com/load-chart.html
* http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm
And the next time you make a post, forum members can help you when you provide adequate information instead of:

I have an older firearm that I would like to load at black powder pressures using smokeless .

what I NEED - (a form of shouting!) is the Black Powder pressure info so I can match my loads pressure wise in my antique firearm!
Good Luck!

[BruceB]

"....... then a smokeless load at that same pressure should me fine shouldn't it?"

Not necessarily.

Damascus shotguns give us a good demonstration of the difference.

#When a damascus gun gives up due to a smokeless load, it's TYPICAL to have the barrel blow out in the shooter's forward hand. This is where the black-powder gun's barrel-wall thickness tapers abruptly in thickness, because the black powder 's pressure curve also drops off quickly.... but smokeless pressure usually DOES NOT.

The smokeless pressure curve gives higher pressure further down the barrel, which means that typical smokeless guns are built with thicker barrel walls further down the barrel. So.... the chamber pressure may be fine with the smokeless load, but further along the barrel is a ****-shoot. The gun MIGHT contain the pressure, but.... it might not.

I wouldn't try it.

[Wayne Smith]

And, since most smokeless powders have two different pressure curves, the barrel doesn't have a chance to recover from one when the other hits. While the total pressure may not be too different and the back pressure may not be a problem, the barrel is not made to contain the pressure curve of the smokeless. In ANY BP gun you are taking a major chance to shoot smokeless. The steel is very different than used now, and it is at least 100 years old as well. Don't take the chance.

[Ninety Caliber]

Ninety Caliber, since you have been completely non informative twice about the caliber of your antique and the bullet weight you intend to use, here's some reference sources. Go at it yourself! ...
* http://www.goexpowder.com/load-chart.html
* http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm
And the next time you make a post, forum members can help you when you provide adequate information instead of:


Good Luck!

John Boy,
Sure wasn't trying to piss anyone off(guess I did) I didn't get specific because I am willing to do my own research . Thank you for the links! Btw a S&W 2nd model top break in .38 s&w. Gunsmith said it would be ok to shoot and I really don't want to do the bp thing. I assumed since there are published "trapdoor loads " for smokeless .. Something might work

[Wayne Smith]

First, are you familiar with the .38S&W cartridge? It is different from any common cartridge today. Larger in diameter and takes a larger bullet, too.
Second, there is NO WAY I would shoot an original S&W Mdl. 2 with anything but BP. That is old and weak steel and the cylinder walls are thin. The original Mdl. 3 is only recommended for BP because you will wreck the cylinder with any other load, the steel is that thin and soft. The only reason I shoot my Mdl 3 differently is because it was made in 2000 with modern steel.

[John Boy]

Ninety Caliber - now we're getting somewhere - S&W 2nd model top break in .38 s&w
Wayne gave the best advice and I echo it. It was made in 1882 - 1884 and no smokeless was invented yet. It's a BP handgun - treat it as such and it will be faithful to you for a long time
On the Goex site ... 38 S&W - 145gr bullet - 15gr FFFg powder - 700 fps
Go and have fun with your revolver!
PS - black powder rounds will be more fun than subjecting the old steel to smokeless too!

[Ninety Caliber]

Ninety Caliber - now we're getting somewhere - S&W 2nd model top break in .38 s&w
Wayne gave the best advice and I echo it. It was made in 1882 - 1884 and no smokeless was invented yet. It's a BP handgun - treat it as such and it will be faithful to you for a long time
On the Goex site ... 38 S&W - 145gr bullet - 15gr FFFg powder - 700 fps
Go and have fun with your revolver!
PS - black powder rounds will be more fun than subjecting the old steel to smokeless too!

John Boy,
Thx. Would a bp sub be just as safe?

[dikman]

A sub should work, but why not just use the real thing?

As for using smokeless in a BP gun, this was posted on another forum - www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/284246/tp/1/

Granted, it refers to a rifle, but the principle is the same - DO NOT USE SMOKELESS IN A BP GUN! Basically, he loaded 60 gns of Dupont smokeless in a Lyman BP rifle. It took him a couple of tries to fire it, but when it did it blew the gun apart, taking part of his finger with it! He was lucky that the finger was all he lost! I seem to recall Lyman (I think?) posted some videos of tests using smokeless in BP rifles - destructive tests!

[John Boy]

Would a bp sub be just as safe?
Ninety Caliber - first you want to use smokeless - now you want to use substitute BP ... I read between the lines you are another gun owner that thinks cleaning firearms shot with BP is the most arduous task in the world. Wrong, hot tap water - clean - dry and oil has worked for over a hundred years
OK, if you are so inclined to shoot a BP sub, pick which one and call the company that makes it for loading data. But 1st find or cast 145gr bullets because the company will need to know the bullet weight before they can respond - If They Can!
BTW, substitute powders are corrosive

[Ninety Caliber]

Ninety Caliber - first you want to use smokeless - now you want to use substitute BP ... I read between the lines you are another gun owner that thinks cleaning firearms shot with BP is the most arduous task in the world. Wrong, hot tap water - clean - dry and oil has worked for over a hundred years
OK, if you are so inclined to shoot a BP sub, pick which one and call the company that makes it for loading data. But 1st find or cast 145gr bullets because the company will need to know the bullet weight before they can respond - If They Can!
BTW, substitute powders are corrosive



Busted, lol. Been shooting for forty -odd years...know absolutely nothing about black powder. Primarily worried about the supposed danger working with bp as in static electricity? Have read some about it. All my loading paraphernalia is for smokeless.

[waksupi]

Busted, lol. Been shooting for forty -odd years...know absolutely nothing about black powder. Primarily worried about the supposed danger working with bp as in static electricity? Have read some about it. All my loading paraphernalia is for smokeless.

This may answer your question;

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

[Ninety Caliber]

Waksupi,
Thanks for the link

[montana_charlie]

A discussion about pressure ...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?222951-BP-pressure

[Wayne Smith]

So now you know not to worry about static electricity. I've been shooting BP cartridge guns for years, that's all I shoot in my 44-40's. Never had to worry about cleaning, hot soapy water does wonders, and after drying a little oil and you are done. Actually easier to do than a smokeless, you just need to do it relatively soon after shooting. You can't get away with not cleaning it until you use it next. My dad taught me to clean my guns after shooting and it's still a habit. Works well with BP!

[rsrocket1]

Why don't you try some of the BP substitutes like Black MZ. It measures like BP, ignites as easily as BP, produces as much smoke as BP, but isn't corrosive. You can also use Pyrodex or 777, but Pyro is more corrosive than BP and both are just about as messy. No static electricity hazzards with any of the subs.

Do a search on black powder substitutes. There are a lot of them and the burn characteristics are similar to BP for normal practical purposes.

[John Allen]

I am with Fishhawk on this if the gun used BP originally use the same. It is easy to load and not that tough to clean.